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#870075 - 03/31/03 11:01 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
[QBDiplomacy was working. Hussein was in a box. He was not in a position to threaten us or anyone else. The inspectors could have continued for a long time -- years in fact -- and all that time, Hussein would have remained in the box, a threat to no one.

[/QB]
Except for his ties to Al Quaida .... DAH!
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#870076 - 03/31/03 11:16 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
LP,

I have a lot more interest in this issue than simply "winning an argument". I will simply let what you have posted stand and may all who come here to look marvel at the sheer folly of what you have outlined. I really don't need to comment on it at all.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#870077 - 03/31/03 11:44 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by benedict:

1░ You could not ask the US Army to put pressure on the Iraki regime for months and months[/b]
Had Mr. Bush handled this better, it would not be just the US military putting pressure on him. I have no trouble with the US forcing this as an issue the world had to deal with. We could have done that, handled it better, and the pressure would have been coming from more than the US.

As for whether or not the military could have kept up the pressure for a long time? NATO forces were on a war footing for close to 50 years to hold the Soviets in check. The US has held CUBA in check since 1959. The US, South Korea and others have held North Korea in check since 1953.

Yes, we can hold a regime in check for a long time.

 Quote:
2░ The 1441 asked that Saddam shows how he had destroyed WMD, not play hide and seek[/b]
To me, the goal, the only goal, is to maintain and ensure the security of the United States and its allies. I don't really care what Resolution 1441 said. All I care about is the security of the US and its allies. While the inspectors were in there, we were secure from any mischief by Mr. Hussein.

Now, if you want deal with 1441 -- then let the UN decide how to deal with it; it was a UN Resolution, not a US Resolution. The UN did not choose to enforce its resolution through a US led war. The US has no legitimate right to enforce UN resolutions on its own.

 Quote:
3░ The Iraki summer was approaching. Maybe you should go and help your Iraki friends[/b]
And as long as Hussein was held in check, who cares what the season is? We could have held him in check in Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter -- and many cycles of them. To ensure the security of the US and its allies, all we needed to do was hold him in check.

The Iraqi summers are no worse than the winters in the far North of Europe, where we had troops stationed and on a war footing against the Soviets for decades.

 Quote:
4░ The US Army and the British Army have great problems. Saddam and his friends have killed hundreds of thousands of Kurds, Shiits, sons in-law and you can say **** like that.[/b]
I have no desire to have the US with the help of the UK, unilaterally clean up every despotic, evil regime in the world. The only reason the US and UK militaries have problems right now is because their leaders have chosen to place them in a position to have these problems.

Hussein is an evil man. There are many evil men running countries in this world. I have no desire to start a series of wars of liberation against all of them. And, to be honest, I do not believe that the war we are now fighting if primarily a war of liberation. I don't truly believe that Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, Mr Rumsfeld or any of the others are doing this primarily because of the poor, suffering Iraqi's.

 Quote:
5░ Stop being a traitor and a fool and don't try and make us look somewhere else : Saddam will go and you'll apologize for being a traitor AND a fool[/b]
Yes, Saddam will be gone. And then we will have to live with the consequences of how we have done it. I expect those consequences will haunt us for decades.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#870078 - 03/31/03 11:50 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
Except for his ties to Al Quaida .... DAH![/b]
There is no evidence that Hussein and Al Quaeda have been working in tangent. Indeed, most evidence shows that Al Quaeda finds Hussein to be despicable because he is a secular ruler of Moselm people, not a religious Moslem ruler.

Before the start of this war, there was little support for Hussein himself in the Arab world. Few Arabs or Moslems would have fought for him. But now, with this war, there is a lot of support for Hussein --because we have made him a symbol for them of standing up to the United States who, in many cases rightfully and in many cases wrongfully, the Arab world sees as opposing their own aspirations.

No, Apple, there is no proven link between Hussein and Al Quaeda. Mr. Bush tried and failed to make this link. There is suspicion, at least in the US. But no link has been shown and the materials that the US used with the UN to try to prove that link were shown to be falsifications.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#870079 - 03/31/03 11:53 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:

If the workers are only creating a small percentage of the wealth, then you really need to get rid of them. But you won't. Why? Because without them, no money flows and the business is gone.

Unless you are self employed or not working at all, whatever you do is getting done by the workers. Whatever money your company is bringing in, is coming in because of employees. Even if you consider money flowing into a company because of the capital markets, both the debt and equity markets will fund you only to the extent that the employees are creating adequate wealth for the company to either repay its debt or to make it a sound investment.

The wealth of any company comes only because of its employees. The Board of Directors can have as many meetings as it wants, but if the employees are not producing, the company fails.[/b]
Perhaps, this would be a good place for our lawyer medical economist to jump in and explain wealth creation?

Until he does, LP, here's a perspective question: When you listen to a concert, is the primary creator of the music the composer, the director, or the 3rd trombonist? Granted all are necessary but which is most essential for the creation of that music?
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#870080 - 03/31/03 11:55 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
LP,

I would take you much more seriously, if you could take off your "Bush Blinders".

When people preface everything with "If it wasn't for ____(insert President's name), it shows that the hate of the person, or of his administration overrides any rational thought.

To agree with O'Reilly, there exists a "fringe" on either side of American politics, perhaps as much as 10% at the end of the spectrums, that cannot be reasoned with, no matter how strong the argument, or how worthy the cause.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#870081 - 03/31/03 12:02 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:

Until he does, LP, here's a perspective question: When you listen to a concert, is the primary creator of the music the composer, the director, or the 3rd trombonist? Granted all are necessary but which is most essential for the creation of that music?[/b]
All of them.

Simply writing a piece and then allowing it to sit on a shelf does not create great music.

Having no music to direct and no musicians to direct in playing it, does not create great music.

Playing third trombone when their is no score and no director to bring in the other musicians does not create great music.

Unless all three are fully involved, there is no great music.

And so it is in the creation of wealth. To argue that the workers create wealth on their own is foilly. To argue that the capital markets or investors create wealth on their own is folly. To argue that the top management creates wealth on its own is folly.

The most successful companies? Try something like Southwest Airlines where the entire company -- owners, employees and all in between, recognize they have a vested interest in the success of the company -- the company succeeds and has created wealth because of the unified goals of everyone involved.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#870082 - 03/31/03 12:49 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
LP Yes, Saddam will be gone. And then we will have to live with the consequences of how we have done it. I expect those consequences will haunt us for decades.[/b]

Back to the old SHAME ON US spiel.

You might be disappointed : USa does not seem to be haunted by slavery, by Indian genocide, by two atom bombs on civilian populations and by its support of every dictator alive during decades.

Why should they be sorry when Saddam is dead (if he is not dead already) and the Middle East has been given a chance to democracy and development ?

You seem to make one step forward to be positive and productive and two steps behind to just be negative, counterproductive and slightly traitor.

Soon, I'll skip posts with your name.

Consider this as an ultimatum not been completely endorsed by UN (whose record sheet as having solved any important and difficult situation is immensely small if not nonexistent.. I suggest that you join the Committee of Human rights headed by Lybia. You'll feel quite in good company.).

I donte like Bush (as my friend Chico Marx would have said). I donte like him. But once a war is started against a dictator, you wait till it is won and you just check that the good guys stay good guys.
You do not try to make Saddam an unjustly attacked respectable victim.

No sir. Not now, not ever.

Not in my book.

a French cowboy.
\:D :rolleyes:
_________________________
Benedict

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#870083 - 03/31/03 12:59 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
LP, the question was which is most[/b] essential? That piece of music can be played by a different orchestra or with a different director but it originated with the composer. He, in the classical grammatical sense (icgs), created it while they manufacture it. Someone (or ones) created a product or business and the wealth it brings, the others are the nuts and bolts that keep it running with each being compensated for his (icgs) part in the process.

But this is all semantics, blather, whistling in the wind, etc. I yield the remainder of my time on the subject, Mr. Speaker.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#870084 - 03/31/03 02:22 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
LP,

I would take you much more seriously, if you could take off your "Bush Blinders".

When people preface everything with "If it wasn't for ____(insert President's name), it shows that the hate of the person, or of his administration overrides any rational thought.

To agree with O'Reilly, there exists a "fringe" on either side of American politics, perhaps as much as 10% at the end of the spectrums, that cannot be reasoned with, no matter how strong the argument, or how worthy the cause.[/b]
Jolly

I disagree with you. I think it is perfectly possible for someone to have serious and extensive policy disgareements with a president without hating him. For this type of person, when discussing the President's policies of course he is going to criticize the President by name.

It should not be surprising to you or anyone that I think Mr. Bush and his administration are wrong, seriously wrong, about this war. If this is the case, why would you not expect me to make that clear?

Now, I realize that during Mr. Clinton's Administration, many of those who were most vocal in their criticism found a need to make him sound as if he were the devil incarnate, to make him out to be primarily an evil man. We have all gotten used to that sort of attacks.

But because Mr. Clinton's opponents did that and got us all used to the idea that policy disagreements should be expressed through hateful speech, this does not mean that we all base our disagreements on hate.

I don't hate Mr. Bush. But I do think he has and is doing great damage to this country.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#870085 - 03/31/03 02:23 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Benny Benny Benney

I must have really touched a nerve, or are the cookie crumbs still chafing you.

Alas benny, your own words lend such credence to my statement "A common man is not capable of rational thinking".

lb

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#870086 - 03/31/03 02:27 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by benedict:
You do not try to make Saddam an unjustly attacked respectable victim.

No sir. Not now, not ever.

Not in my book.
[/b]
Benedict,

You are making the mistake of seeing opposition to this war as support for Saddam Hussein. It is not. It is opposition to war being the best way to deal with him.

Settle down. I do not see Hussein as a victim. You and I probably have the same view of him. We simply disagree about how to deal with him.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#870087 - 03/31/03 02:33 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
LP wrote:
 Quote:
But because Mr. Clinton's opponents did that and got us all used to the idea that policy disagreements should be expressed through hateful speech, this does not mean that we all base our disagreements on hate.
I've been around the block enough to know that people have criticized the President, any President, long before Billy Jeff was a gleam in his Daddy's eye. I refer you to much of the criticism leveled at Jefferson, Lincoln, Taft, FDR, etc.

I believe the main point still holds true. When all one sees is a forest, it becomes hard to discern individual trees.

Even the good ones.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#870088 - 03/31/03 05:48 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Wow, I think I know now why I don't wander in here much. I had no idea this much cyber-testosterone was being flung around like monkey-doo.

On one side people are calling for a halt to war. Not because they cherish life, or firmly believe that all violence is bad, but because they follow a partisan line that tells them to contrast everything George W. says.

On the other side someone's calling notice to the extra curricular beliefs of said left wingers. Stating their involvement in the occult, neo-paganism, search for the arc of the covenant (with Indy of course). "Curse these people for not believing in God!" ... wait... did I hear someone mention the "frying" of another human being? Wonderful demonstration to the non-believing left your firm beliefs in Christ's love and forgiveness.

As you can see I'm not going to take side on this, because all I've seen stated so far is emotion. This emotion is running through all the threads. A lot of it is illogical, and unhealthy. Not unhealthy as a belief, but unhealthy as a discussion. Nobody is going to change anybody's mind, or make a "valid" point when people are this hot. It simply becomes an exposition of Cyber-Courage.

Anyway, I'm enjoying reading it, and learning a lot I never knew about the people posting it. By all means don't take this the wong way... keep it up \:\)

KlavierBauer
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#870089 - 03/31/03 06:04 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by KlavierBauer:
the extra curricular beliefs of said left wingers. Stating their involvement in the occult, neo-paganism...[/b]
And your point is...? \:D
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#870090 - 03/31/03 07:59 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
 Quote:
Originally posted by KlavierBauer:
Wow, I think I know now why I don't wander in here much. I had no idea this much cyber-testosterone was being flung... KlavierBauer[/b]
Actually, I think Lazy Pianist is doing a most excellent job of stating his opinion against such a respectable opposition. I like the way s/he thinks. I wish I could express myself as well. \:\) Jodi

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#870091 - 03/31/03 09:35 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Gardener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 290
Loc: New Jersey
David_J-

I glossed over your tier rate chart too quickly and misspoke, but I reiterate your tax scale is in fact proving my point.

Reward is a motivator and punishment is the deterent. When tax contribution is on a sliding scale increasing percentage as salary rises IS a PUNISHMENT. Higher salaries and raises in most senarios accompanies increased job responcibilites, expertise, education etc. Sliding scales insure less buck for your bang each rung you climb as the resulting take home pay does not increase exponentially. How can this be viewed as anything other then a PUNISHMENT. This becomes the deterent. However, rewards abound for the unmotivated, drive-lacking individual to never look beyond today, or this months rent deposit, stagnating the workforce.

I do not believe a government should be involved in any practice of psychological game play. No motivators, no rewards, no deterents, no punishment. Flat tax takes governmental influences out of the work force and gives motive back to the worker! I want no 'write offs' from my government which suggest how I should spend/invest my money. I don't want to pay more tax simply because I found a way to make my hard work increase my earning power. Why is my work ethic even catagorized by a government. That has nothing to do with what a government is set up to accomplish. When did citizens of any nation turn to their governing bodies and ask them to oversee so many aspects of our society?
_________________________
Gardener--
Two roads diverged in the woods and I ... I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.(R. Frost)

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#870092 - 03/31/03 09:41 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
Well written post, Gardener.

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#870093 - 04/01/03 03:11 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Jodl, I agree with you completely.

I've been having issues with both sides of the conflict. A problem (which I mentioned) was the lack of logical arguments on the side of anti-war. I myself am not for this war (or any war). But not being for it, and supporting the enemy are two very different things as lazy mentioned.

I've been hearing for some time now "well, so you didn't get your way, but the war's going on now, so at least you have to support the troops..."

Ok, what exactly does that mean? I support them in the sense that I pray daily for their safe return. I understand that we're in it now, and in that sense I support it's rapid succession. But if I have issues with the principle of war, then certainly those hold true throughout the conflict. If our Army was drafted into place, I could feel sorry for the people ripped out of their homes and sent off to a far away country to die. But that isn't the case here.

We are 100% volntary enrollment, and as such every person fighting there is doing so by choice. AS I SAID (before people start yelling) I am sorry that things have come to what they have, and am sorry for every soldier having to do what they're doing. But let's not forget that they have chosen to be there. Let us also not forget that this is not an act of defense. We have declared war on Iraq. Every day we seem to try to change that wording to mean "War on Saddam" ... but that isn't the case. We are strategically taking over a country. We are the agressors. And while I understand that this is what has to be done at this point, I certainly am not happy about it.

I can't help but think that there are people who don't realize the severity of this situation for all involved. That means both sides of the conflict. The propoganda filled soldiers who want us dead even though they hate Hussein, the women and children killed in a van today, the american soldiers away from home, scared for their lives. Lives are being lost on both sides of this, and it saddens me deeply. The Romans proved long ago what happens when you spread your way of life to the rest of the world. Granted, it almost worked.

But almost only counts in horseshoes

Anyway, that's kind of a lengthy response that's probably off topic. I apologize for those I've undoubtedly offended. Please understand that I am patriotic. I love my country, the freedoms it offers, and greatly appreciate the people defending it. We are fighting a war that needs to be fought at this point. I only argue that if we had dealt with things in other ways over the last 2 decades, perhaps we wouldn't be having to fight this war right now.
Thank you for allowing me to exercise my right to free assembly to assemble these thoughts.
I fel like most people I know don't understand my stance, as I'm never allowed to finish explaining it. But I trust the lot of you to a degree which is now allowing me to stick my head out a bit. Perhaps a bit further than ever before.

I hope it wasn't a mistake...

KlavierBauer
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#870094 - 04/01/03 03:31 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
David_J Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 175
Loc: Australia
JBryan, sorry I didn't realise the U.S.A. had a whole barrage of extra taxes :p

Gardener, the rates I showed were actually much lower than Australia's: as such welfare and offence spending would have to be slashed.

How would YOU pay for universal health care, free education- heavily subsidised university, defence, welfare etc (all of which would help the highly paid person reach their position in society)?

The flat tax is REGRESSIVE. You're not punishing the rich by taxing them a higher percentage of earnings: they will still want more money. But for the poor, all you are doing is filching them, (every dollar means a lot more to them), and it's likely you'll increase their dependence on welfare and government housing. So what's the gain from that?

Would you go for a flat tax (regressive) simply to appease the rich? Would you cut welfare and deprive some sections in society from basic human standards? What would you do?

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#870095 - 04/01/03 06:47 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
KlavierBauer

I hope it wasn't a mistake...[/b]

I like very much the way you expressed yourself.

Anyway, who can be 100% sure that she/he is right ?

I am not in favor of war. Wars should be banned as death penalty should be.

But there still is the problem of security and human rights : if we follow your and LP's arguments, there should be no police.
If a person beats his wife or children, we should respect the privacy of his home.
If he tortures his children, then let's pray and hope he will see the light.

What about the beaten and tortured people ?

There is a strong problem of semantics.
Let us forget about war and discuss about what should be done :
1░ to deprive Saddam of his WMD. Because everybody knows he has them. One of his sons in law is called Chemical Ali. And thousands of Iraki citizens have experienced them and are dead now.
2░ Do we let the Iraki people suffer if we can stop that horror. Eveybody knows that as soon as Saddam and his tugs are out of power, the population will express their relief. Wouldn't you feel relieved ?
3░ What do we do to stop the Arab world playing the vicious game of uniting in their hate for Israel, the Jews and the US and the developed countries in general.
They have to learn that democracy is an option, science is an option, industry is an option, freedom for women is an option. They have to learn that religion is great if it fits the principles of Human Rights (one of them being the freedom to believe what you choose to believe).

4░ I understand that things would have been easier if Saddam had attacked one of his neighbours. He has been a fool several times, but he looks like a placid old man, a bit like good old Joe Stalin.
The USA have been victims of a serious crime against manking. We all know that the root of this crime is the hatred that seems to unite the Moslem world. It is absolutely essential to stop that game. If it can be done peacefully, then great. We all are waiting for your practical ideas.If it has to be done by the use of force (not war : force), then great.
Aren't you happy Milosevic is not practicing his favourite sport : ethnic purification ?
Don't you feel proud that, despite the tensions, Afganisthan is not ruled by the Talibans ?

It does not matter that you do not agree with this war.
People whose job it is to make decisions when a terror attack occurs as to what strategy they choose have decided. Their plan is not stupid and they must be given a chance.

If they have been dishonest and/or if they prove the fears of the whole world that the USA are an imperialistic country disguised as a peace loving exporter of democracy, then the hatred will be there forever and the USA will take place with nazi germany and Stalin's soviet union or Mao's china.

But we are not there yet.
In a few weeks, this operation should be a success.
Then, we shall see if the USA were there for the oil or for the democracy/security.
Then we shall see whether the USA are ready to get committed to a solution where the palestinian people have a land and Israel the right to exist in peace without being the scapegoat of 1 billion or more moslims.

If this happens, you are entitled to admit you did not trust the force of courage and committment.

If it doesn't, I will burn my new cowboy hat.

\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#870096 - 04/01/03 07:01 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
and I will eat mine.

KlavierBauer, very thoughtful post.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#870097 - 04/02/03 01:59 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Benedict:

For the most part I agree with your post.

I haven't forgotten about the tortured people, or the human rights atrocities. In fact, these are the very things that sadden my heart as we go to war.

I'm a big fan of consistency though. I have no problem with this war on terror, if it is genuine. This means that other countries like Zimbabwe (in worse shape than Iraq right now) deserve to be regulated as well. There is a whole country starving, with people losing everything, being tortured, killed, etc. every day.

I hope that we find a way as humans to affect each other's hearts, rather than each other's actions. It seems that when we slap each other on the back of the hand, we just tend to get a little hotter under the color. Don't get me wrong, every hand needs a slap every once in awhile. My point is, I'm not excited, or happy about it. And it saddens me that there are people who are.

KlavierBauer
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#870098 - 04/02/03 06:24 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
KlavierBauer,
I'm a big fan of consistency though. I have no problem with this war on terror, if it is genuine. This means that other countries like Zimbabwe (in worse shape than Iraq right now) deserve to be regulated as well. There is a whole country starving, with people losing everything, being tortured, killed, etc. every day. [/b]

It is up to the US citizens to decide if they want to confront their government with their resolve to impose democracy and human rights as a world norm and enforce it.

Then, the whole world will know if they were sincere or just greedy for oil and domination and just doing a police action in case Saddam was a threat to the Empire State Building and the White House.

I am amazed at the amount of hatred both from the British-US world and against the USA.

There is an enormous bug which might will have to be dealt with.

Hate won't do the trick. Nor accepting the Saddams of this world to torture and (mass)murder as a way to enjoy power.
The irony of it is that millions of people do not like the way the USA seem to be power-hungry.

Because, they are powerhungry, are they not ?

_________________________
Benedict

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#870099 - 04/02/03 10:56 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by benedict:
Because, they [USA] are powerhungry, are they not ?[/b]
No.
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#870100 - 04/02/03 11:52 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
benedict Offline
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Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Yes.
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Benedict

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#870101 - 04/02/03 12:01 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Benedict, what do you, personally, think? Why do you think the US is in Iraq right now?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#870102 - 04/02/03 12:12 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Benedict:

When you say the U.S., you are referring to everyone within it's borders.

While I said earlier that I am opposed to war, I will also support my country. I might not support what it's doing, but I support what it stands for.

Making a blanket statement like "the U.S. is power hungry" includes me ... and last I looked, I'm not power hungry.

I understand what you're saying. The U.S. Government does manytimes assume that they're #1, and that their way of life is #1. But don't make statements that include the whole country.
Like any other country, we're made up of lots of different ideas. We thankfull have the freedom to express it.

KlavierBauer
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#870103 - 04/02/03 01:25 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
I apologize for a gross generalization.

What I mean is... Well, I don't know what I mean.

If one cannot utter gross generalization and feel good, life becomes hell.

When I started having beers in this Coffee Room, a lot, and I mean a lot of people explained clearly that :

1░ France was a country of cowards
2░ France had lost every war since two thousand years
3░ The US Army had liberated France over and over again
4░ The USA were always right because they are the country that is right by its very essence. (probably the last western country that is blessed by God since Germany decided to drop the subject altogether)
5░ The French are cowards because they do not allow free sale of firearms
6░ The French are cowards because they make wine
7░ The French women are hairy and stink

So, I may have concluded a bit hastily that the USA are power hungry.

There are other elements as well.

Bush's administration makes it clear that no other country will ever be allowed to approach the level of military power that they have.
No country. Never.

Bush's administration makes it clear that they do not need any countries opinion to do what they decide to do. And since they pray every morning together, they know what they have to do.

The USA will take control of Irak and do exactly what they want to do, how they want to do, when they want to do it. With the oil (this government does know a lot about oil). With the government of Irak they will choose to implement.

No, all well considered, the US government and a lot of the people who explained to me what a piece of ... France I am are not power hungry.

One not power hungry person even explained that the Jewish Torah was there to show how everything prepared the coming of Jesus.

Power hungry ?

No. Definitely not.

Why do billions (yes, billions) of people think the opposite ?

I suppose they have seen to many US movies. \:D \:D

Do not mistake me : if I am here in this forum, it is because I love the USA that are not power hungry.
All my life I have read and studied authors like Carl Rogers, Maslow,Peter Senge and many others of humanistic psychology and management.

When I was a student, every morning I shaved while listening to Kennedies speeches.

"Do not ask what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country".

"We must help people help themselves".

So KlavierBauer, when I say the USA are power hungry, it certainly does not mean you and a lot of US citizens.

It means people like Jodi who kick sandbags and howl fiercely. These people are powerhungry. \:D
_________________________
Benedict

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#870104 - 04/02/03 02:15 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
Benedict:
All my life I have read and studied authors like Carl Rogers, Maslow,Peter Senge and many others of humanistic psychology and management.
[/b]
Benedict,

I'm curious about your statement above, your interest in social manipulation via psychology (or is your interest more in productivity i.e., Taylor, Hawthorne Electric experiment, OK I'll include Maslow, etc.).
Was such reading part of school curriculum, or was this study simply an interest of yours?


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