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#870195 - 04/08/03 01:10 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:

doesn't it make sense to ask if all this death and destruction and violence is really necessary? [/b]
Ask her:

_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#870196 - 04/08/03 01:14 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
jodi,
i think you have been on the cheerleading squad long enough. time for you to join into the game yourself, don't you think? i don't think any of the wildlife here will bite, although some do seem to have rabies....

\:D \:D

thanks for your input, larry. i feel so reassured to see what a fine job our government p.r. machine is performing in cranking out feel- good pictures to illustrate our wonderful foreign policy.

_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#870197 - 04/08/03 01:18 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Not so sure, Pique. I am sometimes on the fence about all this. And you all say it so much better. I do like to read about it though, and getting as many opinions as possible, from such sharp people as yourselves (ALL of you) has been very helpful. So, I guess I should've thanked everybody. \:\) (how's that for wimping out) Jodi

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#870198 - 04/08/03 01:43 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:

thanks for your input, larry. i feel so reassured to see what a fine job our government p.r. machine is performing in cranking out feel- good pictures to illustrate our wonderful foreign policy.

[/b]
Why the use of the mad icon, Pique? Are you mad because a little Iraqi girl is safe now, or are you mad because you had to resort to minimizing her to nothing more than a "feel good" picture for the evil American propaganda machine? Or are you angry because it shows that your view is wrong, and our foreign policy is actually working?

I assure you that this picture did not come from any government source. That's the difference in us Pique. You look at the picture and see a failed US foreign policy and US propaganda, and I look at the picture and see a little girl who is happy that we saved her, and is thankful. I see the reason we went, you see a threat to your New World Order with the UN at the head of it.

Whatever it is about her picture that makes you mad, at least there probably won\'t be any more of this going on in Iraq now, thanks to our "failed foreign policy".

Or, click on this link, Pique. When it opens, click on the nagivation link "Iraqi children". This little girl and boy probably wish they could ride on a tank and wave a flag, and participate in the propaganda machine too.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#870199 - 04/08/03 01:45 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Why the use of the mad icon, Pique? Are you mad because a little Iraqi girl is safe now, or are you mad because you had to resort to minimizing her to nothing more than a "feel good" picture for the evil American propaganda machine? Or are you angry because it shows that your view is wrong, and our foreign policy is actually working?
[/b]

none of the above. the mad icon is because you accept that photograph as evidence of something, and base your suppositions upon it. to me it is evidence of nothing.

 Quote:
You look at the picture and see a failed US foreign policy and US propaganda, and I look at the picture and see a little girl who is happy that we saved her, and is thankful. I see the reason we went, you see a threat to your New World Order with the UN at the head of it.[/b]
nope. wrong again. i look at you posting that picture and see that some people are very easily led to believe what they want to believe. on what basis do you believe that those pictures tell you anything, larry? who is that little girl? do you even know where she comes from or for what reason she is holding the flag? how can you so easily make the leap to believing that this picture tells us anything about the success of our efforts in afghanistan? it tells us zero.

that means it doesn't say anything about whether our foreign policy failed or was successful. it doesn't say anything about a New World Order, pro or con.

i have no opinion on whether that effort failed or was successful, nor do i have a new world order in mind with the UN at the head of it.

but what i do see is a man who eagerly jumps to conclusions where there are none in evidence, and who judges others' positions without any evidence to support that judgment.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#870200 - 04/08/03 02:01 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:

i look at you posting that picture and see that some people are very easily led to believe what they want to believe.
[/b]

Interesting. You see a picture of a little Iraqi girl waving an American flag and smiling, and you think it means nothing, yet you believe and defend every word that comes out of Michael Moore's mouth.

You're making this too easy, Pique.

on what basis do you believe that those pictures tell you anything, larry? [/b]

On the basis that there isn't much of a modeling agency in Iraq right now, you know? I think it is pretty obvious to anyone with an open mind that this little girl is happy, and at the very least she is comfortable with the Americans around her - I wonder how comfortable she would act around the Iraqi soldiers who last saw the two kids in the second link I left for you?

who is that little girl? do you even know where she comes from or for what reason she is holding the flag? how can you so easily make the leap to believing that this picture tells us anything about the success of our efforts in afghanistan? it tells us zero.
[/b]

How pathetic, Pique.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#870201 - 04/08/03 04:29 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
jazzyd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 1861
Loc: United Kingdom
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Originally posted by pique:
on what basis do you believe that those pictures tell you anything, larry? [/b]

On the basis that there isn't much of a modeling agency in Iraq right now, you know? I think it is pretty obvious to anyone with an open mind that this little girl is happy, and at the very least she is comfortable with the Americans around her - I wonder how comfortable she would act around the Iraqi soldiers who last saw the two kids in the second link I left for you?
I'm not keen to wade in here, but I must admit to being a little confused. To me this girl looks as if she might be Iraqi, American, French, British, or any other nationality for that matter...?

Anyhow, those were interesting links Larry (don't think you needed the picture).

David
_________________________
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

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#870202 - 04/08/03 05:33 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
ksk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 103
Loc: sweden
Whan such an intelligent person like larry claims that the picture shows the success of this war, I guess that must be the case...or could it be that the "propaganda machine" is working.

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#870203 - 04/08/03 06:53 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Mike Morone Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 46
Loc: Indiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by pique in another thread:
... we live in a culture of fear in the U.S. we have horror stories crammed down our throats by the news and our politicians, and we are controlled by fear. [/b]
This person is not rational.

Mike

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#870204 - 04/08/03 08:25 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Lazy Pianist,

That was a nice John Wayne story but there is no need to parade your love of country before us. I did not bring that up. Whether love of country or hatred of Bush lies at the root of your constant misrepresentations of fact and shallowly based conclusions matters very little. One has to wonder, however, what could motivate a person to be so obviously unwilling to recognize even one good thing resulting from the current policy.

Surely our security is greatly enhanced by the removal of the Taliban and destruction of the Al Qaeda training camps but, in your eyes, the situation amounts to almost daily guerilla warfare. This paints a picture of a beleaguered US Military standing off a populist guerilla movement rather than, what is really the case, an ongoing operation to root out the remnants of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. The situation for the Afghan people is not, yet, where we would like it to be but at least they are no longer being oppressed by the Taliban. That more still needs to be done is not in question by me or anyone else here.

Surely the Iraqi people are better off without Saddam Hussein but, again in your eyes, they are resisiting an invasion by a lawless country. The Iraqi Army are stripping off their uniforms, laying down their weapons and melting into the population to carry on a guerilla war. The Iraqi people are restrained in their enthusiasm, not by Ba'athist thugs, but by their loathing for us.

Your unwillingness to acknowledge even the smallest good that may be being done and your need to find the tiniest fly in the ointment and magnify it into a dragon does not seem rational and, indeed, one has to wonder if an irrational hatred of Bush could be your guiding principle. Even though I think the Bush policy is on the right track I still harbor some doubts and can recognize the possibility of unforeseen consequences. If, at the end of it all, I see evil men sitting atop heaps of Iraqi wealth rubbing their hands together I will surely be prepared to say something is terribly wrong. Yet, it would be difficult to make the case that the Iraqi people are worse off.

However, if you say you are acting out of love for country I will take you at your word. It does not make your actions any more rational.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#870205 - 04/08/03 08:57 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Lazy wrote:
Gryphon asked what part of this country I am from. It does not matter...To assume that my loyalty and love for my country would be based on the region of the country I live in...
I never mentioned anything about your "love for country being based on the region of the county you live in." I never even inferred it. I asked because I doubt you are an American and live here. This is only my feeling and is actually not based upon your ideas stated on Pianoworld Forum. I think you might be assuming an identity here that is not entirely factual. Of course I have no way of proving that and if you say you are from NY or Georgia or whatever then you have answered my question. I am not an admin and I can't check your IP address.

Another possibility is that you were born and raised in another country, somewher around the Middle East for example, before emigrating here. Just a hunch.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#870206 - 04/08/03 09:44 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Hank Drake Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/31/01
Posts: 1682
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Pat Buchanan is an idiot. He is not a Conservative - he is whatever he needs to be that day to get what he needs. He is purely interested in himself and his own ego.

[/b]
Well said, Larry. I've haven't posted to this thread, but I wanted to jump in for a moment to express my opinion on one of the most vile creatures in American politics today--Pat Buchanan.

Reading his writings, I get the impression that Mr. Buchanan secretly wishes that Germany had won[/b] World War II. He's promoted primarily by racism--his remarks that Hitler was never a threat to the US are motivated by Anti-Semitism. Buchanan's courting of the union vote in the Reform Party primaries was motivated primarily by hatred of Mexicans. His speech at the 1992 Republican Convention (where he declared "cultural war") was probably a significant factor in the Republicans losing the election that year. His recent book about the "death of the West" reads like Mein Kampf lite. He was opposed to finishing the job and removing Saddam Hussein from power in the 1991 Gulf War because he felt it would create a "power vacuum" in the MidEast which Iran would fill (which was ridiculous, since Iran's military was in worse shape than Iraq's). Any opposition he may have to the current conflict in Iraq is probably motivated by a revulsion of the idea of liberating those "ragheads."

LP, when you're citing Buchanan as support for your arguments, you're suspect.
_________________________
Hank Drake

The composers want performers be imaginative, in the direction of their thinking--not just robots, who execute orders.
George Szell

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#870207 - 04/08/03 11:29 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
I never mentioned anything about your "love for country being based on the region of the county you live in." I never even inferred it. [/b]
Actually, that's exactly what my take was on your questioning LP's origin. I also assumed that you were inferring that he was NOT an American. I know quite a few very good, ethical, moral and patriotic people who are AMERICANS who think along the same lines as LP. Jodi

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#870208 - 04/08/03 11:31 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
thank you, jodi. keep it coming!! \:\)
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#870209 - 04/08/03 11:52 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Even though I think the Bush policy is on the right track I still harbor some doubts and can recognize the possibility of unforeseen consequences. If, at the end of it all, I see evil men sitting atop heaps of Iraqi wealth rubbing their hands together I will surely be prepared to say something is terribly wrong. [/b]
I suspect, JBryan, this is part of the basic disagreement you and I have. You start with a basic trust in politicians, and assume they are being honest about what they say. I start with a basic distrust of them and assume they have an agenda they are not being upfront about. You are prepared to let the drama play out and then judge it only after nothing can be done. I prefer to see what is happening along the way and try to stop the damage from being done in the first place.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#870210 - 04/08/03 11:55 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I suspect, Lazy Pianist, you have totally mischaracterized my position on politicians. However, I do need to see at least a shred of evidence before I assume that there is treachery at work.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#870211 - 04/08/03 11:56 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Drake:

LP, when you're citing Buchanan as support for your arguments, you're suspect.[/b]
Hank, I never once used Pat Buchanan to support my views. I had been attacked as being some sort of left wing fanatic for my views. All I pointed out was that my views could not be construed that way because there are many "non-left wing fanatics" who feel as I do -- and used Pat Buchanan as an example.

No one I know of would think of Mr. Buchanan as a left wing fanatic -- although he did get all those votes in liberal Dade County FL, so maybe I am mistaken. \:\)
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#870212 - 04/08/03 12:09 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
No one I know of would think of Mr. Buchanan as a left wing fanatic -- although he did get all those votes in liberal Dade County FL, so maybe I am mistaken. \:\) [/b]
:D \:D \:D

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#870213 - 04/08/03 12:14 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
jbryan,
i'm with lp on this. i find my government suspect until proven otherwise. doesn't that make me a conservative? \:D

seriously, i can't think of any good reason to trust politicians. i thought most of us had given that up after watergate. money and power corrupts, and those politicians i know who have considered running for national office tell me it is impossible to do so without becoming a whore to special interests. i believe what they tell me. too much evidence supports it.

when we have campaign finance reform, i'll consider trusting politicians again.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#870214 - 04/08/03 12:15 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Just an aside: What Larry said about Pat Buchanan was his 2000th post!
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#870215 - 04/08/03 12:23 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:
Actually, that's exactly what my take was on your questioning LP's origin.[/b]
If anyone thought that was what I meant, let me state plainly and clearly that that was NOT what I meant, nor is it why I asked. Yes, I also know ethical, moral people who are against us going into Iraq. And I think in my followup post I state clearly that I have my suspicions NOT based upon views stated by Lazy. So I will simply wait and see what LP responds.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#870216 - 04/08/03 12:30 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
jbryan,
i'm with lp on this. i find my government suspect until proven otherwise. doesn't that make me a conservative? \:D

seriously, i can't think of any good reason to trust politicians. i thought most of us had given that up after watergate. money and power corrupts, and those politicians i know who have considered running for national office tell me it is impossible to do so without becoming a whore to special interests. i believe what they tell me. too much evidence supports it.

when we have campaign finance reform, i'll consider trusting politicians again.[/b]
Yet some seem to have a much greater distrust of the current government than they did of the one headed by the proven liar who proceeded GWB.

I agree with Mark Twain about Congress and the current judicial situation in the Senate where procedural rules override Constitutional authority bears out his opinion.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#870217 - 04/08/03 12:41 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:
Actually, that's exactly what my take was on your questioning LP's origin.[/b]
If anyone thought that was what I meant, let me state plainly and clearly that that was NOT what I meant, nor is it why I asked. Yes, I also know ethical, moral people who are against us going into Iraq. And I think in my followup post I state clearly that I have my suspicions NOT based upon views stated by Lazy. So I will simply wait and see what LP responds.[/b]
In your follow up post, Gryphon, you basically imply (forgive me if I am wrong)that if I were not from the United States, then my views might be suspect. I am not sure why anyone would assume that someone who is not American might not have moral misgivings about what the US is doing and the impact it is having on the security of the world, the unity of the world and the safety of the world.

I find it interesting how many people are willing to give credence to politicians but deny credence to citizens. I also find it interesting how many people on this Board seem to feel my views are somehow dangerous to the United States.

On another thread, the one on Bowling for Columbine, Jolly detailed the number of firearms he has and said he hoped that the government feared him -- I assume because he wants them to think twice about taking away his rights.

It is my hope that the Bush Administration truly fear the ideas of those of us who are against this war so that they do not think they can start another one in some other part of the world -- thinking the American people will rally behind their President and their troops just because we are at war. I hope the Bush Administratin fears that the American people might start thinking twice about going to war any time and any place they want to.

As Mr. Rumsfeld and others in the Administration begin to beat the drums of war against Syria and Iran, as they have, beginning to set the stage for further US invasions, I hope they fear that we who find such actions as immoral and against America's interests will sway public opinion in America against them.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#870218 - 04/08/03 12:44 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
I suspect, Lazy Pianist, you have totally mischaracterized my position on politicians. However, I do need to see at least a shred of evidence before I assume that there is treachery at work.[/b]
And based on the proven lies my government has told me over the entire course of my life, I want politicians and my government representatives to validate their actions for me before I assume treachery is not at work.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#870219 - 04/08/03 12:53 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:
[QB]Yet some seem to have a much greater distrust of the current government than they did of the one headed by the proven liar who proceeded GWB.

QB]
that particular liar was beholden to the same special interests every denizen of the white house has been beholden to since reagan's election in 1980. he wouldn't be holding the office otherwise. that's how we got NAFTA.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#870220 - 04/08/03 12:54 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
And based on the proven lies my government has told me over the entire course of my life, I want politicians and my government representatives to validate their actions for me before I assume treachery is not at work.
How do they do that? To be skeptical of politicians is one thing and understandable but to automatically assume evil intent is nonsense. How can you support any policy proposal by any politician. To have to prove that there is not some ulterior motive in every case is impossible and an invitation to paralysis. You are trying to prove a negative.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#870221 - 04/08/03 01:02 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14057
Loc: Louisiana
LP stated:
 Quote:
It is my hope that the Bush Administration truly fear the ideas of those of us who are against this war so that they do not think they can start another one in some other part of the world -- thinking the American people will rally behind their President and their troops just because we are at war.
All 20% of you? ;\)
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#870222 - 04/08/03 01:07 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14057
Loc: Louisiana
Never cared for Jesse Jackson's politics, but you have to love the way he can turn a phrase.

One of my favorites: "The paralysis of analysis".

You can analyze anything to death. You can question motives until you are blue in the face.

But you've got to trust, at least grudgingly, that the other fellow is at least going to try to do what he says he will do.

Otherwise, life would be miserable, would it not? \:\(
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#870223 - 04/08/03 01:07 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
[QUOTE] How do they do that? To be skeptical of politicians is one thing and understandable but to automatically assume evil intent is nonsense. How can you support any policy proposal by any politician. To have to prove that there is not some ulterior motive in every case is impossible and an invitation to paralysis. You are trying to prove a negative.[/b]
I did not ask for proof. I asked for validation. And in my opinion, Mr. Bush has not validated that the war in Iraq will make the United States or the world more secure, that it will have any real effect on international terrorism or that it is even linked to international terrorism.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#870224 - 04/08/03 01:18 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
[QUOTE]I did not ask for proof. I asked for validation. And in my opinion, Mr. Bush has not validated that the war in Iraq will make the United States or the world more secure, that it will have any real effect on international terrorism or that it is even linked to international terrorism.[/b]
This is nothing more than another way of saying that you do not trust President Bush when he says this war is about national security. It seems clear enough to me that we are safer without Saddam Hussein in power but, in your mind, there has to be some nefarious motive at work. What would he have to do to convince you that a megalomaniacal madman in possession of weapons of mass destruction is a better reason for a war than lining the pockets of Haliburton, Brown and Root, or Boots and Coots. I am truly puzzled by this thinking.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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