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Ask her:

jodi,
i think you have been on the cheerleading squad long enough. time for you to join into the game yourself, don't you think? i don't think any of the wildlife here will bite, although some do seem to have rabies....



thanks for your input, larry. i feel so reassured to see what a fine job our government p.r. machine is performing in cranking out feel- good pictures to illustrate our wonderful foreign policy.

Not so sure, Pique. I am sometimes on the fence about all this. And you all say it so much better. I do like to read about it though, and getting as many opinions as possible, from such sharp people as yourselves (ALL of you) has been very helpful. So, I guess I should've thanked everybody. (how's that for wimping out) Jodi

Why the use of the mad icon, Pique? Are you mad because a little Iraqi girl is safe now, or are you mad because you had to resort to minimizing her to nothing more than a "feel good" picture for the evil American propaganda machine? Or are you angry because it shows that your view is wrong, and our foreign policy is actually working?

I assure you that this picture did not come from any government source. That's the difference in us Pique. You look at the picture and see a failed US foreign policy and US propaganda, and I look at the picture and see a little girl who is happy that we saved her, and is thankful. I see the reason we went, you see a threat to your New World Order with the UN at the head of it.

Whatever it is about her picture that makes you mad, at least there probably won\'t be any more of this...o our "failed foreign policy".

Or, click on this link, Pique. When it opens, click on the nagivation link "Iraqi children". This little girl and boy probably w...rticipate in the propaganda machine too.

none of the above. the mad icon is because you accept that photograph as evidence of something, and base your suppositions upon it. to me it is evidence of nothing.

nope. wrong again. i look at you posting that picture and see that some people are very easily led to believe what they want to believe. on what basis do you believe that those pictures tell you anything, larry? who is that little girl? do you even know where she comes from or for what reason she is holding the flag? how can you so easily make the leap to believing that this picture tells us anything about the success of our efforts in afghanistan? it tells us zero.

that means it doesn't say anything about whether our foreign policy failed or was successful. it doesn't say anything about a New World Order, pro or con.

i have no opinion on whether that effort failed or was successful, nor do i have a new world order in mind with the UN at the head of it.

but what i do see is a man who eagerly jumps to conclusions where there are none in evidence, and who judges others' positions without any evidence to support that judgment.

Interesting. You see a picture of a little Iraqi girl waving an American flag and smiling, and you think it means nothing, yet you believe and defend every word that comes out of Michael Moore's mouth.

You're making this too easy, Pique.

on what basis do you believe that those pictures tell you anything, larry?

On the basis that there isn't much of a modeling agency in Iraq right now, you know? I think it is pretty obvious to anyone with an open mind that this little girl is happy, and at the very least she is comfortable with the Americans around her - I wonder how comfortable she would act around the Iraqi soldiers who last saw the two kids in the second link I left for you?

who is that little girl? do you even know where she comes from or for what reason she is holding the flag? how can you so easily make the leap to believing that this picture tells us anything about the success of our efforts in afghanistan? it tells us zero.


How pathetic, Pique.

I'm not keen to wade in here, but I must admit to being a little confused. To me this girl looks as if she might be Iraqi, American, French, British, or any other nationality for that matter...?

Anyhow, those were interesting links Larry (don't think you needed the picture).

David

Whan such an intelligent person like larry claims that the picture shows the success of this war, I guess that must be the case...or could it be that the "propaganda machine" is working.

This person is not rational.

Mike

Lazy Pianist,

That was a nice John Wayne story but there is no need to parade your love of country before us. I did not bring that up. Whether love of country or hatred of Bush lies at the root of your constant misrepresentations of fact and shallowly based conclusions matters very little. One has to wonder, however, what could motivate a person to be so obviously unwilling to recognize even one good thing resulting from the current policy.

Surely our security is greatly enhanced by the removal of the Taliban and destruction of the Al Qaeda training camps but, in your eyes, the situation amounts to almost daily guerilla warfare. This paints a picture of a beleaguered US Military standing off a populist guerilla movement rather than, what is really the case, an ongoing operation to root out the remnants of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. The situation for the Afghan people is not, yet, where we would like it to be but at least they are no longer being oppressed by the Taliban. That more still needs to be done is not in question by me or anyone else here.

Surely the Iraqi people are better off without Saddam Hussein but, again in your eyes, they are resisiting an invasion by a lawless country. The Iraqi Army are stripping off their uniforms, laying down their weapons and melting into the population to carry on a guerilla war. The Iraqi people are restrained in their enthusiasm, not by Ba'athist thugs, but by their loathing for us.

Your unwillingness to acknowledge even the smallest good that may be being done and your need to find the tiniest fly in the ointment and magnify it into a dragon does not seem rational and, indeed, one has to wonder if an irrational hatred of Bush could be your guiding principle. Even though I think the Bush policy is on the right track I still harbor some doubts and can recognize the possibility of unforeseen consequences. If, at the end of it all, I see evil men sitting atop heaps of Iraqi wealth rubbing their hands together I will surely be prepared to say something is terribly wrong. Yet, it would be difficult to make the case that the Iraqi people are worse off.

However, if you say you are acting out of love for country I will take you at your word. It does not make your actions any more rational.

I never mentioned anything about your "love for country being based on the region of the county you live in." I never even inferred it. I asked because I doubt you are an American and live here. This is only my feeling and is actually not based upon your ideas stated on Pianoworld Forum. I think you might be assuming an identity here that is not entirely factual. Of course I have no way of proving that and if you say you are from NY or Georgia or whatever then you have answered my question. I am not an admin and I can't check your IP address.

Another possibility is that you were born and raised in another country, somewher around the Middle East for example, before emigrating here. Just a hunch.

Well said, Larry. I've haven't posted to this thread, but I wanted to jump in for a moment to express my opinion on one of the most vile creatures in American politics today--Pat Buchanan.

Reading his writings, I get the impression that Mr. Buchanan secretly wishes that Germany had won World War II. He's promoted primarily by racism--his remarks that Hitler was never a threat to the US are motivated by Anti-Semitism. Buchanan's courting of the union vote in the Reform Party primaries was motivated primarily by hatred of Mexicans. His speech at the 1992 Republican Convention (where he declared "cultural war") was probably a significant factor in the Republicans losing the election that year. His recent book about the "death of the West" reads like Mein Kampf lite. He was opposed to finishing the job and removing Saddam Hussein from power in the 1991 Gulf War because he felt it would create a "power vacuum" in the MidEast which Iran would fill (which was ridiculous, since Iran's military was in worse shape than Iraq's). Any opposition he may have to the current conflict in Iraq is probably motivated by a revulsion of the idea of liberating those "ragheads."

LP, when you're citing Buchanan as support for your arguments, you're suspect.

Actually, that's exactly what my take was on your questioning LP's origin. I also assumed that you were inferring that he was NOT an American. I know quite a few very good, ethical, moral and patriotic people who are AMERICANS who think along the same lines as LP. Jodi

thank you, jodi. keep it coming!!

I suspect, JBryan, this is part of the basic disagreement you and I have. You start with a basic trust in politicians, and assume they are being honest about what they say. I start with a basic distrust of them and assume they have an agenda they are not being upfront about. You are prepared to let the drama play out and then judge it only after nothing can be done. I prefer to see what is happening along the way and try to stop the damage from being done in the first place.

I suspect, Lazy Pianist, you have totally mischaracterized my position on politicians. However, I do need to see at least a shred of evidence before I assume that there is treachery at work.

Hank, I never once used Pat Buchanan to support my views. I had been attacked as being some sort of left wing fanatic for my views. All I pointed out was that my views could not be construed that way because there are many "non-left wing fanatics" who feel as I do -- and used Pat Buchanan as an example.

No one I know of would think of Mr. Buchanan as a left wing fanatic -- although he did get all those votes in liberal Dade County FL, so maybe I am mistaken.

jbryan,
i'm with lp on this. i find my government suspect until proven otherwise. doesn't that make me a conservative?

seriously, i can't think of any good reason to trust politicians. i thought most of us had given that up after watergate. money and power corrupts, and those politicians i know who have considered running for national office tell me it is impossible to do so without becoming a whore to special interests. i believe what they tell me. too much evidence supports it.

when we have campaign finance reform, i'll consider trusting politicians again.

Just an aside: What Larry said about Pat Buchanan was his 2000th post!