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#870411 - 12/06/04 07:47 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Now - I keep hearing about all these people I "ran off", would you kindly provide me with a list of them? The only ones I see gone are netizen, JA, PJ, and Kenny. I was never the slightest bit rude to Kenny. I consider Kenny a friend. If I have insulted him, I will personally apologize to him. Netizen and I never had a cross word, just plenty of "winking" jabs at each other. If he feels I have insulted him, I will personally apologize to him as well. [/b]
I will let them speak for themselves if they so choose.


 Quote:
As for JA, he was one of the most destructive members of this forum, and I'm happy he's gone. Now - who else? [/b]
Apart from the fact that JA repeatedly brought up issues with which you stongly disagreed, please show me one post where he was "destructive" or "vulgar."

And as for me, there was a lot more to my post than the two discrete issues to which you replied. i would be interested....


jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#870412 - 12/06/04 07:52 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Yes, Larry, that *is a threat. There are many, many others here besides you. Many who you have driven off. If I can stop the hemorrahaging, I will - even if that means exposing you for what you are. \:D (Which BTW, for any of you at a 4th grade reading level or lower, is nota peacemaker).

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#870413 - 12/06/04 07:52 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
You know what is kind of hard to take and is one reason why I didn't have a warm and fuzzy feeling from this well-intentioned thread?

There are lots of people here who have never, ever uttered a rude word on these boards -- even in political discussions. Not once. Yet the premise of this thread is that we've *all* contributed to the lack of civility that is driving people away. Or that part of the problem is just that some folks have "thin skins."

That just isn't so, IMHO. I think those who *have* behaved badly should improve and should apologize for their missteps and endeavor not to repeat them, and if this thread moves them in that direction, that's good. I don't think they should say that "everyone does it," though. 'Cause everyone doesn't.

I hope Larry is correct when he suggests that most people here mean no malice and are good at heart and all of that. But all we have to go on are the words in the post. And if those words are personally insulting, then you can't blame people if they start to have doubts the speaker's heart of gold.

Food for thought, definitely. Me, I'm going to bed.
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#870414 - 12/06/04 07:53 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Kathy wrote above:
Yes, Larry, that *is a threat. There are many, many others here besides you. Many who you have driven off. If I can stop the hemorrahaging, I will - even if that means exposing you for what you are. [Big Grin] (Which BTW, for any of you at a 4th grade reading level or lower, is nota peacemaker).[/b]

Thanks for the kind words.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#870415 - 12/06/04 07:55 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
kk: " I have no interest in baiting Larry. I'd be very happy to see him vaporized from here, as I am sure, he would me."

Speaking for myself, I hope both of you stay, perhaps without the personal invective (I've been subject to names from both of you, and do not hold myself above having done the same myself). As for JA, he almost always ended our debates by saying he was morally superior to me, and would not even bother to answer my questions or read my posts. Why bother talking to someone like that?

JF, kk - I PMed kk some time ago about one particular post Netizen made to me that bothered me a lot at the time, that kk was also involved in. I have no reason to want to drag it up in public now, but it is the single most personally repulsive and hostile thing I have ever seen spoken here. Period. kk knows exactly what I am referring to. As for dragging up old posts to public view again, whether Nettie's, kk's or Larry's - why bother? Post something new and constructive and move on. Larry is not the problem. He is one of the most interesting people on here - and we just had a religion debate where I called his views "fairy tales". You don't see either of us wanting the other driven from the Forums, now do you?

Now I intend to go play with our baby. I will engage in direct, even heated debate with anyone. I would prefer that the debates be less personal, and more over the ideas. I hope kk and jf stay and post. I suspect that Kenny will come back once the atmosphere in here improves.

[Edit: and the word is "cretin" meaning 'idiot'. I believe you capitalized it confusing it with Cretan, a city-state in ancient Greece, and the source of a famous logic puzzle from ancient philosophy - imagine the phrase "All Cretans are always liars" spoken by a Cretan. Is this sentence true or false? At any rate, before you assume your critics are 'cretins' you may wish to know that I got my Ivy doctorate at 24, and my PBK at 19. I suspect there are a lot of other people on here with interesting backgrounds as well. Stay, but get off your high horse and start an interesting thread.]

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#870416 - 12/06/04 07:55 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
You *did* run people off, Larrems.

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#870417 - 12/06/04 07:55 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#870418 - 12/06/04 07:55 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Here is the simple truth - you, and a small group of "liberal to moderates", are behind the majority of ill will here, as evidenced by the posts in this thread. You **** me off. You're smug, self righteous, you have an air of superiority that is distasteful, and I flat out don't like you. [/b]
Larry, I think you are wrong. I think that you would find upon review of old posts that the ridiculous liberals may be overboard in their nastiness towards Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld-etal, but that you would be hard pressed to find posts where they directly and personally attacked a conservative POSTER in response to an issue post. If I am wrong, please educate me.

But this PERSONALIZED reply is your modus operandi--it is the rule rather than the exeption--and THAT more than anyting else here has set the tone....If you don't begin to hear that and own it, your initial post is not worth the pixels it......

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#870419 - 12/06/04 07:59 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Me, I'm going to bed. [/b]
And Cindy, for all your partisan and pointed commentary, you have ALWAYS and WITHOUT A SINGLE EXCEPTION been civil and have NEVER made it personal, and yet you have been accused as being part of the problem...go figure?

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#870420 - 12/06/04 08:00 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
 Quote:
You don't have to call people names or say things in a hostile manner to be rude Jack, and you know it.
Hang on a minute, there.

This might well be the core of the problem.

If I say "Bush is like Hitler, or worse," many of you might find that shocking or offensive. That does *not* make my statement rude or inappropriate in any way.

I really do think that is where some folks get off track here. If you are negatively characterizing the PW person who wrote the post, you are being rude. If you are articulating a political position many would find noxious, that is not rude.

I find it wholly irrelevant if JA wrote things "for the sole purpose of creating division and hotility." If JA didn't insult or attack PW members, then there is nothing wrong with articulating fringe political positons.

Surely we can agree on that?
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#870421 - 12/06/04 08:01 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#870422 - 12/06/04 08:02 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
kathy - i tell you truly.... you need to chill.
Take a break, come back in a week or so....

you are like being Miss Angry Woman of the Century.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#870423 - 12/06/04 08:03 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
ames or say things in a hostile manner to be rude Jack, and you know it. JA thrived on writing things in a way that looked civil, but was like a fist stuck in a velvet glove. And, on many occasions, he took the glove off. He relished writing things for the sole purpose of creating division and hostility. You're smart enough to know that Jack. [/b]
Larry, I could not disagree more. Zealous advocacy of an issue is always ok and usually admirable. If it is over the top it should be exposed as such. A response that is personal to the poster for having tried to make the case for an extreme postion is of a totally different order. Until you recognize that difference, Larry, you intitial post (which I thought was admirable) is without substance.

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#870424 - 12/06/04 08:05 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
I love debating you women on issues, (hi Cindy) but this fighting to fight, with nothing to talk about but the personalities of whomever you are fighting with, is downright idiotic. It's stupid. Drink some milk... it'll settle you down.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#870425 - 12/06/04 08:05 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
Now I intend to go play with our baby. [/b]
Now THAT is the smartest thing I have read tonight!

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#870426 - 12/06/04 08:08 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
jf: "Now THAT is the smartest thing I have read tonight!"

And he is way more mature than some of the posters here!

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#870427 - 12/06/04 08:08 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
There are'nt many, Larry?! HA HA HAH!!!! You know, I almost sucked into your demand - had a list of a dozen or so, and realized how I'e be playing to and copping out onthem. No, Larry. You know darn well, as do those left posting here, this place is very, very lacking. It's very one-sided ; without debate; all in agreement - ho hum . Well, if that's what you like, keep up with your asp-tongued, poisonous attacks. If you want a right wing, feel-good playground (Frank willing), you've got it. Because we're too nice to play on those terms.

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#870428 - 12/06/04 08:12 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Kathy wrote:
There are'nt many, Larry?! HA HA HAH!!!! You know, I almost sucked into your demand - had a list of a dozen or so, and realized how I'e be playing to and copping out onthem. No, Larry. You know darn well, as do those left posting here, this place is very, very lacking. It's very one-sided ; without debate; all in agreement - ho hum . Well, if that's what you like, keep up with your asp-tongued, poisonous attacks. If you want a right wing, feel-good playground (Frank willing), you've got it. Because we're too nice to play on those terms.[/b]

Kathy claims to have a "list" of "a dozen or so", yet while everyone here would have seen these posters "public" and be aware they are gone, Kathy makes the excuse that to tell us who they are would be "copping out on them". It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell she is making excuses for not having this supposed "list of a dozen or so", since it is idiotic to suppose that people who we all saw posting would object to someone calling attention to the fact that they are gone.

Now notice how revealing *this* part of her statement is:
No, Larry. You know darn well, as do those left posting here, this place is very, very lacking. It's very one-sided ; without debate; all in agreement - ho hum . Well, if that's what you like, keep up with your asp-tongued, poisonous attacks. If you want a right wing, feel-good playground (Frank willing), you've got it. Because we're too nice to play on those terms.[/b]

So, Kathy finds a place that is in agreement "one sided", "ho hum", and she as much as admits she doesn't like it when people are getting along harmoniously. As I've said before, she can only see politics, not people, so in spite of the fact that we *still* have roughly half and half on the forum, she sees the friendliness and politeness that has been on the increase since she left a few weeks ago as being proof that it is a "right wing playground". Then she informs us that "we", meaning "her and her left wing allies", are "too nice" to join in where people are getting along peacefully and politely - an indication I suppose that they too find this objectionable, and prefer debate, strife, and want it to remain nothing but political battles.

I'd like to thank Kathy for putting it all into such an easy to understand picture of how her and her side views things.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#870429 - 12/06/04 08:16 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
But this PERSONALIZED reply is your modus operandi--it is the rule rather than the exeption--and THAT more than anyting else here has set the tone....If you don't begin to hear that and own it, your initial post is not worth the pixels it......[/b]

And just when did my "personalized" replies begin, Jack? I believe if you will start at the beginning, you'll find that I posted a very well intentioned post, meant to promote good will. Who jumped in to attack me, Jack? Was it your wife?
Who started the nastiness, Jack? Show me where it was me. My "modus operandi" is that when you come out swinging at me, I'm gonna kick your ***. Your wife has done nothing but vent bile and venom from the moment she got into this thread until her last post in it. She even found the time to take several cheap shots at me in another thread. And you expect *me* to listen to you tell me about *my* modus operandi?

Get real man. This thread began as a polite, friendly attempt to promote the good will that was taking hold in our forum again. Your wife showed up, and now look at it. Show me where she has contributed the first damned thing that was positive, Jack. And after you've done that, *one* of you provide me with the list of people I "ran off", or quit tossing it out like it's fact. [/b]
Larry, I am not talking about this thread and I am not defending kathyk--tshe is a big girl who is more than capable of defending herself.

I am talking about your role here generally. You started this thread with a heartfelt appeal for peace and a (sort of) apology, but i truly think that you have no idea how much YOU have contributed to the tone of this place. I don't know what else to say that I have not said already, except that YOU more than any other poster here PERSONALIZE what would otherwise be an issue debate--albeit zealous and extreme. YOU are the one who, time after time, turns an issue debate into a referendum on the poster. REALLY. I am not making this up.

If you really mean what you said in your intitial post, you will contemplate this and own up to it. I think that most of your supporters would agree with me on this Larry, I really do. There is NOTHING wrong with zealous and even RIDICULOUS debate about issues, but as soon as your reply uses the word "you" (which it ALWAYS does), you have personalized it.

THIS is the problem in the Coffee Room.

REALLY.

Own it and the problem will go away.

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#870430 - 12/06/04 08:16 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#870431 - 12/06/04 08:18 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
No,m Larry, I'm talking about a level of civility - politics aside.

I have to give you this. You *are* relentless. Simply *must* have the last word, don't you. Well, it's your'n. Enjoy.

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#870432 - 12/06/04 08:20 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
In the course of it, she has been vindictive, hateful, mean, nasty, and just like when she first came here promising to "kick some conservative butt", told me in no uncertain terms that she is plans - stated as a threat - to "haunt" me until she wins.
[/b]
NOPE. Larry, for the tenth time, as you know, she did nnot say that....I did.

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#870433 - 12/06/04 08:22 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
jack... i remember it. She took Larry on, first thing.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#870434 - 12/06/04 08:23 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
There seems to be a lack of understanding here between being civil and being polite. One cannot be civil without being polite but the reverse is not necessarily true. Of course, there are those who are neither one and just because they do not have frequent rows of asterisks in their posts does not make them any less hostile. Whether it is "silly winger" or "would you say, JBryan, that......, would you say, JBryan, that......, would you say, JBryan, that......, would you say, JBryan, that......" ad infinitum it is still uncivil even if it may be dripping with politeness. Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip (others are not nearly so fastidious) but that is far more polite than civil.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#870435 - 12/06/04 08:30 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
There seems to be a lack of understanding here between being civil and being polite. One cannot be civil without being polite but the reverse is not necessarily true. Of course, there are those who are neither one and just because they do not have frequent rows of asterisks in their posts does not make them any less hostile. Whether it is "silly winger" or "would you say, JBryan, that......, would you say, JBryan, that......, would you say, JBryan, that......, would you say, JBryan, that......" ad infinitum it is still uncivil even if it may be dripping with politeness. Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip but that is far more polite than civil. [/b]
Certainly a smart post that is informed with more Cabernet than I have consumed, and thus is somewhat beyond my complete comprehension tonight, but I believe I understand what the esteemed JBryan is saying....and I respectfully disagree.

What he says is, of course, true.

The ability to stick it to someone subtley couched in polite discourse is a high art that should be encouraged rather than not...and as long as the tone is poilte i think it is acceptable here in any form.

It does not justify the boorish and direct attacks on one's persona.

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#870436 - 12/06/04 08:31 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
hello!
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#870437 - 12/06/04 08:39 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
hello! [/b]
Hi!

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#870438 - 12/06/04 08:42 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
hijack
...


someone please hijack this thread...

it could be you and me Jack, but it's late.. I have to get up in the morning, early. Isn't it pushing midnite in Maine?

yoo'all celebratin' or something?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#870439 - 12/06/04 08:44 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
No, we're diverting the PW LaRJACK!

Have you guys all gone mad?!

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#870440 - 12/06/04 08:46 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Kathy,

Quit being a troll.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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