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#870561 - 12/07/04 10:15 AM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:


if it is kind, but not true, don't say it.
if it is true, but not kind, don't say it.

sometimes it is kindest to say things people would rather not hear, because it is for a greater good, but one can still do it with kindness.

[/b]
well that gave me a little giggle in the midst of tears. \:\)
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#870562 - 12/07/04 10:15 AM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
whoops
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#870563 - 12/07/04 10:29 AM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
You more than any other poster on this forum PERSONALIZES the debate. Time after time JA or kathyk or cindysphinx will post an ISSUE and your response is not about the post but the poster. Their posts may be radical and vehement about the issue or even the public personnae involved but they do not refer to "Larry" and your reply invariably begins (or soon uses and emphasizes) the pronoun "you."[/b]
And your point is? What is wrong with that? A person expresses a position and then someone else replies with "your analysis is wrong because" or "what you don't see is" or "you conveniently overlook the fact that" or any number of other replies that contain the word "you" or its variant. You inadvertently swerved into the truth, jf. There are people here who take an attack on their positions as personal attacks on them.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#870564 - 12/07/04 10:33 AM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
I think this thread has broken "the fastest growing thread ever" record.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#870565 - 12/07/04 10:52 AM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I wish folks would stop characterizing the schism as liberals vs. conservatives.[/b]
Perhaps that is because only liberals have left (and are the complainers).
 Quote:
We will soon be a moderated forum...Nevertheless, I'm glad the boards will soon be moderated[/b]
Have you read something that I haven't? I don't know this to actually be the case. I wouldn't be surprised if the CR remains unmoderated.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#870566 - 12/07/04 11:06 AM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
bcarey, I understand your post. Fine, then, if you state something, and I reply with a counter argument showing you where I think you are wrong, you have the opportunity to show me where I went wrong in my analysis of the facts or your position. That's what we do, discuss ideas and positions. If you just ignore my points where I've attempted to show you where you are wrong, then you haven't buttressed your position at all. And to do so in a condescending manner (you haven't been guilty of that) is not "civil," no matter how artfully you use polite discourse to "stick it to someone."
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#870567 - 12/07/04 11:26 AM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
*they're* doing something wrong because they politely maintain their position despite your pearls of wisdom?[/b]
Glad you don't make condescending remarks, Cindy. No, the point is a free exchange of ideas. If my pearls of wisdom are wrong, the civil thing to do would be to point out my flawed facts or logic, not ignore the arguments that just refuted the original points.

What so hard to undestand about that, you braindead moron!

:p

(How many smiley faces do I need to include to make sure you understand I was only kidding about the moron part?)
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#870568 - 12/07/04 11:34 AM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
gryphon,
i can see how this would be annoying, to make a case against someone's point of view, and then just be ignored.

i know i am guilty of doing that.

when i do that, it isn't meant as an insult to the person who disagrees with me. it just means i have not been convinced by your argument, and i have neither the time or inclination to go back and forth point for point.

you are free at the point to say, why were you unconvinced by my argument?

a lot of times, i see the arguments that are put forth as so full of holes, i don't even know where to begin.

but more often, i decline to continue the debate because personal invective has crept in, and i know that i will just be wasting time and energy to try to really discuss the issue.

when people are civil and stay on topic, as opposed to veering off into personal animosity or broad brush description of my or "my" group's character, then i am happy to stay and do back and forth.

but if the first thing you say to me is that i'm a blind idealogue, then i don't want to play with you.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#870569 - 12/07/04 11:54 AM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
KathyK I have a question for you. Did the 'dearly departed' send you here to stir the pot so they can enjoy the spectacle? [/b]
Absolutely not. Many of the dearly departed do not give a rat's lick (is that the right homespun term?) about what goes on in this room anymore. I came of my own volition because I *do* care about this room, and although I doubt I'll ever feel comfortable resuming regular posts here again, I said what I felt needed to be said. (And, wow, I have a lot more time on my hands!)

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#870570 - 12/07/04 12:02 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
a lot of times, i see the arguments that are put forth as so full of holes[/b]
Yeah, but not mine. \:\)
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#870571 - 12/07/04 12:35 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Sorry, Gryphon, I don't wish to relive it. I saw enough on the days after the election to last a lifetime.

JKeene, I was thinking of some rather personal attacks that went far beyond what you linked.
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#870572 - 12/07/04 12:44 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Well, Cindy, the reason I asked was because I only saw a couple, and they were by infrequent posters, not the usual suspects.

In fact, one of the first posts I made post-election was not to gloat but to start looking toward future elections, specifically would Hillary run and be the Democrat nominee in 2008. And true to form, JA made derisive comments about my post right out of the box.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#870573 - 12/07/04 12:44 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Gryphon:

 Quote:
Glad you don't make condescending remarks, Cindy. No, the point is a free exchange of ideas. If my pearls of wisdom are wrong, the civil thing to do would be to point out my flawed facts or logic, not ignore the arguments that just refuted the original points.
The mere fact that you disagree with my statement does not make it condescending.

Yes, Gryphon, I sometimes ignore people. I sometimes ignore you. There is a reason for that, which is that sometimes you go way, way over the top and are out of line (you surely are not the only one to do this, BTW). So I ignore you. Even when you call my name and keep bumping a thread to get my attention.

Ignoring someone who has crossed the line is not only my right but usually the very best thing for all concerned.

I feel fairly comfortable in saying that the very best thing here in CR is often to ignore someone or something that you feel is inappropriate.

 Quote:
No, the point is a free exchange of ideas.
Well, I'd say the point is a free *expression* of ideas. No one can make anyone exchange ideas, nor is anyone obligated to reply to anyone just because a reply is desired.
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#870574 - 12/07/04 12:47 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
The mere fact that you disagree with my statement does not make it condescending.[/b]
No, the fact that it is condescending makes it condescending.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#870575 - 12/07/04 12:50 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
KathyK I have a question for you. Did the 'dearly departed' send you here to stir the pot so they can enjoy the spectacle? [/b]
Absolutely not. Many of the dearly departed do not give a rat's lick (is that the right homespun term?) about what goes on in this room anymore. I came of my own volition because I *do* care about this room, and although I doubt I'll ever feel comfortable resuming regular posts here again, I said what I felt needed to be said. (And, wow, I have a lot more time on my hands!) [/b]
I'll take your word for it, but if you do not feel comfortable you may want to ask yourself "what am I saying or doing" and "how is it affecting other people". The same goes for Larry and everyone else around here for that matter- myself included. If we were to employ these two little questions more often prior to posting our rebuttals most of the rot would disappear independent of kangaroo court threads of truth and reconciliation or Soviet style show trials such as has occurred of late.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#870576 - 12/07/04 12:55 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Dan Offline


Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 1031
Loc: Colorado
Hey, how 'bout them Steelers?

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#870577 - 12/07/04 01:01 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
You have to say that right - it's pronounced "Hahbaht dem Stillerss?"

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#870578 - 12/07/04 01:03 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
I'll take your word for it, but if you do not feel comfortable you may want to ask yourself "what am I saying or doing" and "how is it affecting other people". The same goes for Larry and everyone else around here for that matter- myself included. If we were to employ these two little questions more often prior to posting our rebuttals most of the rot would disappear independent of kangaroo court threads of truth and reconciliation or Soviet style show trials such as has occurred of late. [/b]
You know, Ren, I normally do just that in the course of my interactions with others, but I am also not one to sit by silently as grievous wrongs are done.

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#870579 - 12/07/04 01:03 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I'd say the point is a free *expression* of ideas. No one can make anyone exchange ideas, nor is anyone obligated to reply to anyone just because a reply is desired. [/b]
Looks like you've swerved into the truth, here. First jf, and now you. We post our thoughts, our ideas, and our positions. Others are free to disagree with them and show why they think they are right and the other is wrong. I try very hard to back up everything I say.

But you're right, it doesn't work if the other person holds his hands over his ears and says, "La, la, la, I can't hear you."
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#870580 - 12/07/04 01:06 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
[QUOTE] but I am also not one to sit by silently as grievous wrongs are done. [/b]
That is not justification for additional grievous wrongs...

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#870581 - 12/07/04 01:12 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
And nor do you have to, KathyK. Anger is like a ball of black goo. It sticks to others. Right now that ball of goo is getting passed around to everyone that reads these threads and it is sticking to them.

We know you are angry, we know Larry is angry and we all feel angry for you and Larry together. I am angry too for my own failings but I don't wish to seek blame on others for it. But I don't care to have your anger, Larry's anger, Cindy's anger, Tom's anger, Pique's anger, Gryphon's anger, Apple's anger, Jolly's anger or anyone else's anger giving fuel to my own anger.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#870582 - 12/07/04 01:23 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
That was a very angry post, renauda.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#870583 - 12/07/04 01:24 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
I loved it. It's exactly how I feel.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#870584 - 12/07/04 01:29 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
*they're* doing something wrong because they politely maintain their position despite your pearls of wisdom?"

I don't think that's condescending. I think it's sarcasm. A technique that I have admitted I use far too often.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#870585 - 12/07/04 01:34 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
Anger is like a ball of black goo. It sticks to others. Right now that ball of goo is getting passed around to everyone that reads these threads and it is sticking to them.

[/b]
That is the most profound statement.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#870586 - 12/07/04 01:45 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
ok, so let's all just take a break for a while. go cool off. do something uplifting like play your pianos, play with your kids, call your mom, whatever it is that takes you to a better place in yourself.

then we can reconvene in a few days and see if people are in a more conciliatory and benevolent mood. the holidays are coming. we don't want to carry this bile forward into the christmas/channukah/kwanzaa season, do we? ;\)

i'm going to go take my own advice right now. \:\) see ya around in a few.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#870587 - 12/07/04 01:48 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Dan Offline


Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 1031
Loc: Colorado
that kid Rothlisberger is the real deal IMO.

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#870588 - 12/07/04 01:50 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
My remark to which Gryphon takes exception is:

 Quote:
Are some of you really and truly saying that if you lay out the Mother of All Rational Arguments and someone persists in their position anyway, that is uncivil? That *they're* doing something wrong because they politely maintain their position despite your pearls of wisdom?
That isn't condescension. Nor is it sarcasm (I think). No, it falls into the well-defined category of "Please tell me that this isn't what you're trying to argue before I *blast* it to a watery grave." Also known among the golfers as "teeing it up." ;\)

But if what I said doesn't accurately reflect your position, Gryphon, do point out how what I said that is off base. Because that's exactly how I interpreted it, and Bcarey already fully explained that people may not buckle in the face of your Killer Arguments because they might not in fact be Killer Arguments.
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#870589 - 12/07/04 01:53 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
Dan Offline


Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 1031
Loc: Colorado
and man, the way the Eagles dismantled the Packers! I've got Akers and Westbrook on my fantasy team. Needless to say I creamed my opponent this week.

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#870590 - 12/07/04 02:05 PM Re: Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
I saw the Eagles a couple of times in concert. They were great!
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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