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Cindy, well put (as usual).

(Are you a lawyer?)

kathyk - (1) Welcome back. Love the diversity in this place. Seriously. If you want to talk only to people who agree with you, go ahead, but don't take it as a sign of intellectual superiority.

(2) The people you cite - JA and Netizen in particular - have been among the most vulgar, disgusting, and personally hostile in here. I can speak from experience, since I am "liberal" on social issues, and "conservative" on economic and foreign policy issues (and changed my views on Iraq to boot). I have been called a "braindead liberal" by Larry, as well as a "neocon winger" by you. Trust me on this, the "liberals" were in general (and are now) just as vulgar and hostile as the "conservatives." Get off the moral high horse.

(3) Instead of baiting Larry over and over again, why don't you start a post on something you care about and move forward?\

Best - Jeffrey

Larry:

Larry, had someone else started this post and cast themselves in the role of peacemaker, I'd be addressing my remarks to them. Since you started this thread, I addressed my remarks to you, primarily.

As well as economics and class struggle. If you're looking for allied hearts in this battle you will be horribly disappointed with the liberals in this joint. They know nothing about history (including their own) and even less about economics. There is one exception but she's not here right now.

To your point (2) , Jeff: "The people you cite - JA and Netizen in particular - have been among the most vulgar, disgusting, and personally hostile in here. I can speak from experience, since I am "liberal" on social issues, and "conservative" on economic and foreign policy issues (and changed my views on Iraq to boot). I have been called a "braindead liberal" by Larry, as well as a "neocon winger" by you. Trust me on this, the "liberals" were in general (and are now) just as vulgar and hostile as the "conservatives." Get off the moral high horse.":

Hardly, Jeff. Show me *one* post where JA has been vulgar, and I will eat my hat. Nettie, and others here, have post with some vitriole, but only after having been prodded and prodded and then some. Therein lies the differnce. We post the ideas, fresh for debate. Larry (and ilk, but of late, he's the worst of the lot), post with personal invective, insult and perjorative. Again, when I have time, I'd be happy to back myself up with old posts. Larry, no doubt, is furiously purging old posts (he he!), but his history speak for him.

And to your point (3: " Instead of baiting Larry over and over again, why don't you start a post on something you care about and move forward?"


Believe me. I have no interest in baiting Larry. I'd be very happy to see him vaporized from here, as I am sure, he would me. I will not, however, stand by silently as he attempts to annoint and sanctify himself in the midst of the blood bath he has championed.
Best - Jeffrey [/qb][/QUOTE]

I think Eusebius hits the nail on head here Larry. I have not read ahead to see how you or others respond. Nor do I want to take SIDES on every issue that has been raised.

I appreciate your initial post. It reads heartfelt to me and i am willing to give you that bebefit of the doubt.

At the same time, I will share two observations.

First: You more than any other poster on this forum PERSONALIZES the debate. Time after time JA or kathyk or cindysphinx will post an ISSUE and your response is not about the post but the poster. Their posts may be radical and vehement about the issue or even the public personnae involved but they do not refer to "Larry" and your reply invariably begins (or soon uses and emphasizes) the pronoun "you."

Second: (and this is based largely on hearsay since I have not been here as long as others and have not followed it closely) There are in fact a number of people, respected and valued by some, if not many, who have left the CR because of you and your allegedly relentless personalized attacks on themselves...NOT on their issues. There is a HUGE difference Larry, and the feeling among many of the liberals who do not feel comfortable or welcome anymore on this forum is that you do not respect or recognize that difference.

You have a tremendous amount of popular support here, as evidenced by recent posts, and I acknowledge and appreciate the spirit of the post that started this thread, but I do want to share with you my feeling, which I think is supported by many, that your posts more than any others (at least from the "right") are responsible for the polarization in the CR, the flight of liberals and others who feel unwelcome, and the acrimony that has been characteristic of the last few months here.

You have fashioned yourself lately as something of a leader here, and you have broad support among many members for that and I imply nothing to deny that for you. At the same time, by virtue of your leadership role, you have fostered among many an acceptance for the kind of personalized attack that has become commonplace for you.

If you really mean what you said in your initial post, you will spend some time assimilating what I have said rather than attacking me as a brain dead liberal with nothing of value to offer.

I may be wrong, and you should feel free to point out that I am, but that does not make me a bad or stupid person, which is the level to which a lot of your recent posts have fallen.

Your friend,

jf

My heavens KathyK you are indeed prickly tonight. I've never seen you such a tizzy. Is something bothering you?

Yes, thank yor for asking dear. And, "it" begins with an "L".

(Peacemaker indeed. [sputter, sputter]).

Larry, you have suggested (in this thread and others) that I am a part of the problem. If I haven't followed Frank's civility guidelines to the letter, I'd like to see some concrete examples of that. The mere fact that you don't like my views does not make me part of the problem -- assuming you agree with me that the problem here is a stunning lack of respect, common courtesy, fundamental decency and manners.

Further, please don't imply there is a conspiracy here between KathyK and me. I am saying what I am saying because I believe it, that's all.

Look, I'm all for civility, apologies, soul-searching, and all of that. I just don't think these are any substitute for moderation, regardless of what any of us say now that moderators will soon be with us.

quote:Originally posted by Renauda:
My heavens KathyK you are indeed prickly tonight. I've never seen you such a tizzy. Is something bothering you?

Yes, thank yor for asking dear. And, "it" begins with an "L".

(Peacemaker indeed. [sputter, sputter]).

Jeffrey, this astounds me. Really?! I must have missed it. Can you provide some examples?

jf

Well folks, I tried. I think the thread speaks for itself.

For what it is worth, I would love to see more civility from Larry. i have been guilty of excess in the past myself. however, I see only he and a few others actually admitting to their past incivility and those who either latly deny that they (or others) have ever engaged in it or insist that they only did when prodded by the incivility of others. That is, in short, a crock. I have been attacked on a number of occasions right out of the box having never said a thing directly to the person attacking and so have plenty ofr others here. I am all for civility but as long as some continue to insist that they are incapable of it or have never engaged in it while the record speaks volumes to the contrary then I am having a hard time believing that they are serious about anything other than stifling dissenting points of view.

Larry. Back off. Stop the name calling, perjoratives and invectives, and perhaps all of us (those still here, that is - and a prayer goes up to our dearly departed martyrs) can still coexist. On the other hand, keep it up, and I *will* haunt you. And that is a promise.

Martyrs?!?!?

Yes, JB, martyr. A term I've loosely used (in a biblical sense) for all of those departed b/c of the likes of Larry. The many sensitive posters.

I swear. If I had more time, I'd start an historical post of snippets. (What's that I heaR? The faint sound of shredding posts .. .