Piano World Home Page Forums Restricted and Archives The Coffee Room Imagine that....... *me* - the peace maker.......

how about if you ignore the thread?

"The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing at the right time, but also to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the most tempting moment."

Truer words have rarely been spoken, and equally rarely observed.

A few thoughts:

A personal attack can be just as vulgar, if not more so, for its content, and not dependent on its use of profanity. There is a difference, and if forced into chosing, I'll take profanity over vulgarity any day.

Ill-spoken words, even if forgiven, are never entirely erased or forgotten no matter how much we may want them to be. If they can't ever be completely erased, we should try to erase them as much as possible, and most importantly, ask forgiveness for them. That won't totally erase the ugliness, but sometimes its the best we can hope for in interacting with each other.

The first step is to recognize the ugliness and vulgarity for what it is - and it is all of ours - and not justify it as a result of drunkenness, letting off steam, putting someone in his/her place, standing up for someone else, or even responding to someone else's ugliness against yourself.

It's not a necessary part of rough and tumble argument over issues. Strong minds of any political viewpoint can overcome it, if they want to. It's wrong, it's hurtful, it's obsessive, and it's not worthy of the great and wonderful intellects of all flavors that haunt these forums.

Now you know how we feel.

well said, dwain.

makes me think of the buddhist precept of right speech: ask yourself before you say something, is it true? is it kind?

if it is kind, but not true, don't say it.
if it is true, but not kind, don't say it.

sometimes it is kindest to say things people would rather not hear, because it is for a greater good, but one can still do it with kindness.

not saying by any means that i have always exemplified this precept!

"The most important thing any of us could do is not to try to get the last word. I have seen threads drag on till they become repugnant cess pools just because no one would quit throwing insults. It seems to be a personality flaw with some."

Guilty, Your Honor. I humbly request a suspended sentence.

By the way, apple, Jolly, and others .. my own take is that there has been nastiness and downright rude behavior on both sides of the aisle since way before the election, and I don't think it has anything to do with the election results. For a while, this forum deteriorated into a name-calling contest. You have both suggested that Kathy and pique and Cindy have engaged in behavior as bad or worse as what has happened to them. To be honest, with the exception of Kathy's uncalled-for behavior last night, I haven't seen that. I think you're viewing their behavior through a distorted prism.

And here is where people aren't hearing what each other are saying. Some people just don't like a high level of interpersonal friction and conflict, while others enjoy it. The ones who hate it can't understand that it's just a game to the other group, and the ones to whom it's just a game can't understand why the other group takes it all so personally.

The bottom line is that both sides have to be a little more sensitive and tolerant. If this were a workplace, the sensitive little bunnies would have to put up with some degree of friction, and the insensitive brutes would have to tone down their act a little bit. If everyone would just do that here, we might be able to find an acceptable middle ground ... enough rough-and-tumble to keep things from getting too boring without so much that it chases away people who don't enjoy the conflict.

Great post, as usual.

Still, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

I knew you were going to say that haha!

At least in my long thread debates, we have a topic that can go somewhere, that can be intellectually debated....this thread seems to be going nowhere, and people (such as the piques of this world) just have a simple choice:

Either leave or stay in the coffee room.

Quirt:
Do this and we're all sorted I think.

Quoting gryphon:
gryphon,

The problem I have with your statement is that I have seen way too many times when people have said that they have refuted someone's position, point-by-point, when in fact, they did not. They only offered a differing opinion, and then got all huffy because the other party wouldn't concede that their position had been debunked. I can't tell you how many times I have been told my position had been debunked, when in fact nothing was further from the truth.

I also submit that there is nothing wrong with being polite, whether "ignoring facts", as you call it, or acknowledging them. Most of the time, I would call it a difference in interpretation or understanding of facts. To take it further most of the time it is in essense, opinion not facts at all.

I find that everyone pretty much lays out their ideas and has confidence in their arguments, as you say. I think we could do a better job of asking each other for reputable sources of our information for some arguments. Hey, sometimes I need proof!

thanx

well that gave me a little giggle in the midst of tears.

whoops

And your point is? What is wrong with that? A person expresses a position and then someone else replies with "your analysis is wrong because" or "what you don't see is" or "you conveniently overlook the fact that" or any number of other replies that contain the word "you" or its variant. You inadvertently swerved into the truth, jf. There are people here who take an attack on their positions as personal attacks on them.

I think this thread has broken "the fastest growing thread ever" record.

Derick

Perhaps that is because only liberals have left (and are the complainers). Have you read something that I haven't? I don't know this to actually be the case. I wouldn't be surprised if the CR remains unmoderated.

bcarey, I understand your post. Fine, then, if you state something, and I reply with a counter argument showing you where I think you are wrong, you have the opportunity to show me where I went wrong in my analysis of the facts or your position. That's what we do, discuss ideas and positions. If you just ignore my points where I've attempted to show you where you are wrong, then you haven't buttressed your position at all. And to do so in a condescending manner (you haven't been guilty of that) is not "civil," no matter how artfully you use polite discourse to "stick it to someone."

Glad you don't make condescending remarks, Cindy. No, the point is a free exchange of ideas. If my pearls of wisdom are wrong, the civil thing to do would be to point out my flawed facts or logic, not ignore the arguments that just refuted the original points.

What so hard to undestand about that, you braindead moron!

:p

(How many smiley faces do I need to include to make sure you understand I was only kidding about the moron part?)

gryphon,
i can see how this would be annoying, to make a case against someone's point of view, and then just be ignored.

i know i am guilty of doing that.

when i do that, it isn't meant as an insult to the person who disagrees with me. it just means i have not been convinced by your argument, and i have neither the time or inclination to go back and forth point for point.

you are free at the point to say, why were you unconvinced by my argument?

a lot of times, i see the arguments that are put forth as so full of holes, i don't even know where to begin.

but more often, i decline to continue the debate because personal invective has crept in, and i know that i will just be wasting time and energy to try to really discuss the issue.

when people are civil and stay on topic, as opposed to veering off into personal animosity or broad brush description of my or "my" group's character, then i am happy to stay and do back and forth.

but if the first thing you say to me is that i'm a blind idealogue, then i don't want to play with you.

Absolutely not. Many of the dearly departed do not give a rat's lick (is that the right homespun term?) about what goes on in this room anymore. I came of my own volition because I *do* care about this room, and although I doubt I'll ever feel comfortable resuming regular posts here again, I said what I felt needed to be said. (And, wow, I have a lot more time on my hands!)

Yeah, but not mine.