Well, there is that little problem, Tom!

As someone whose budget lives or dies by political whim, I think I understand it better than most.

But my political acumen is not the point of this debate - John Kerry's record on defense is waht we are talking about.

I just don't see how you can make chicken salad out of chicken dookie, when considering his defense voting record.

It's very plain.

And I assume that you have now admitted you are incorrect when you claim that Kerry voted the way he did because of outside issues like attachments to the bill or other peripheral issues that he couldn't support hindering him from voting the way he *should* have voted, and that you are finished trying to play your cat and mouse game of justifying Kerry's horrendous voting record using that lame excuse.

You see John, by coming up with excuses for why he voted against these weapons programs, you are admitting he *should* have voted for them, but couldn't. Now that you see that isn't the case, what's left is that he should have voted for them, but *didn't*. There is no other way to explain that, since the only other alternative would be to say you agree that he should have voted exactly the way he did - meaning you wouldn't need to justify it, or explain away his vote against them. You'd simply say he voted correctly, and you support that. That's not what you did.

Since you have repeatedly tried to explain away his voting record instead of agree with it, one can come to only one conclusion - you felt he should have voted *for* these weapons programs, and you could only resolve this conflict by saying he wasn't really voting against them, but against other peripheral things. Now that you see he was completely aware of what he was voting against, you are faced with having to accept the fact that Kerry voted in a way that you up until now didn't agree with. Yet instead of sticking to your principles and admitting that Kerry indeed purposely voted in a way he shouldn't have, you simply drop back to an "I'll vote for him anyway" attitude. That is not the thinking of someone interested in truth, or an honest look at the issues. That is the thinking of a yellow dog democrat who will vote democrat no matter what.

I have never claimed that Larry. All I have said in this entire disscussion is that listing specific votes does not make the point, much less prove, that Mr. Kerry is opposed to defending this country and is against securing the United States.

I beg to differ. In every post you've written except this last one where you try to back away from your previous statements, you have been extremely clear in your posture on this - that Kerry voted the way he did because of peripheral issues attached to the bills that made it necessary for him to vote against it. That has been your entire argument for explaining Kerry's voting record.

No offense intended, but you Bush folks appear to be just as gullible to the GOP propaganda machine, as Bush and Co. was to Chalabi's.

Try as you may, if you are truthful, you can't say that Kerry is weak on Defense, or would be weak on defense as President. Even John McCain says this attack on his record is unfair.

Bush came into office with zilch defense, and foreign relations experience. It shows!

No GOP propaganda machine - facts, ma'am, just the facts.

One can look at a white wall, and argue 'till the cows come home that it is black, but argument will not change the facts.

In Kerry's case, he has a long record...from Winter Soldier...to his latest votes. It would be different if he had picked a particular system, or systems he thought were not needed, or wasteful, but he has stood against almost everything that gives America battlefield superiority.

Not only is that a problem, when considering the defense of this country, but for folks who have bemoaned the loss of American soldiers, why would y'all support a person's voting record that clearly shows that he doesn't mind seeing American soldiers die, for either his personal disdain, or for just trying to save a dollar?

Since when does examination of Kerry's voting record amount being "gullible to the GOP propaganda machine". His record is his record and speaks for itself. I need no prompting from the GOP to see that he consistently votes against defense spending. Self-serving remarks by Republican(?) Senate colleagues notwithstanding.