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#874178 - 08/18/03 02:45 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
pique,
You know how much I enjoy our exchanges. Can you tell me, (and I'm not being facetious) why if I express concern about monies going to Israel, someone would call me anti-Semite.
I could see them thinking or presuming I was anti-Zion (which I'm not) but ANTI-SEMITE.
Two of my Catholic sisters married Jewish boys. I dated a Jewish boy (it was his family who had the problem when we started to get serious.)
Thanx in advance. [/b]
i can't speak for anyone else, justme. i would not think you were an anti-semite for questioning supporting israel. lots of jews question support for the current administration in israel. but even if they didn't, i would not consider your disagreement with support for israel a form of antisemitism. possibly anti-zionism, but not even necessarily that.

for me, prejudice, racism, or whatever you want to call it, is in evidence when someone makes it clear that they think of the group in question as "other." when they seek to diminish the humanity, rights of and respect for others simply because they are different or have a different background. when it is clear from their manner of speaking or writing that gays, jews, blacks, rednecks, or what have you, are seen by them as a foreign and even mystifying group, simply because they are different from them. ;\)
_________________________
piqué

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#874179 - 08/18/03 03:11 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Here is my concern regarding the whole anti-Semite thing, my apologies for not being as eloquent as many on this board.

Within OUR living memory, millions of Jews were rounded up and exterminated, while millions of others looked the other way. Despite some wackos who want to believe otherwise, this is a fact. Moreoever, it is not a fact based in textbooks, but rather something that you can discuss with survivors if you go to almost any Jewish elder care center in the United States.

The causes are complex and impossible to understand completely, and I believe they will remain so. How can one possibly explain away this occurrence?

So what do we do with this terrible knowledge and awareness? I think we are faced with a few options. The first several are, for me, untenable; they include: ignoring it; somehow believing that Jews are "getting what they deserved"; or saying it was an aberration that can only happen occasionally. (This last, obviously has already been shown false.)

The other option is vigilance and speaking out. We know genocide occurs. We need to look out for it, we need to recognize and call hate out into the open when we see it, as these beliefs thrive on ignorance and secrecy.

If, on occasion, the vigilance is interpreted as shrill, or sometimes flat-out wrong, we need to apologize and forgive. Apologize not for the vigilance, but for the mistake.

There are many things I will never "get." I don't "get" what it means to be from the South. I don't get what it means to be a white male, or an African American, or a lesbian, or any of a million other things. I also believe that if entire segments of your family haven't been systematically hunted down, imprisoned and murdered, you may not "get" why Jews may be a bit sensitive about these things.

Sometimes accusations are wrongly made. In my personal moral calculus, that's a small price to be paid when sending the message that anti-Semitism (or any other blanket "hate" message) will not be tolerated.

Nina

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#874180 - 08/18/03 03:19 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
thank you, nina!
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


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#874181 - 08/18/03 03:20 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
I knew it, just more blaming tossing, instead of discussing issues. And what's particularly dismaying (to me) is that the more it goes on, the less likely anybody is to go back to the lengthy post where I discuss the issue of scapegoating, Jews, history and the risks for such now (also Buchanan).

I don't think many members really read threads, but just tack their comments on to the last one. For those of us with dial-up (still) it can be understood, but surely with cable connections, people can scroll a bit further back to see where issues begin!

Ariel

justme, if you plug in at this point, please scroll back to just after your original concerned post, where I reply to you soon afterwards.
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#874182 - 08/18/03 03:44 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nina:
Sometimes accusations are wrongly made. In my personal moral calculus, that's a small price to be paid when sending the message that anti-Semitism (or any other blanket "hate" message) will not be tolerated.

Nina [/b]
Small indeed when you are not paying the price. If it is necessary to slander others in order to "send a message" one has to wonder whether the message suffers as well.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#874183 - 08/18/03 03:51 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Thank you, Ariel, for your response. You know how over-sensitive I get, therefore, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same planet. My views on Israel have softened some (not all the way but some) because of your informative posts. Keep them coming.

Pique, thank you for your response, too. Having experience bigotry and racial hate in the past, I try very hard not to hold racial prejudices.

I am prejudice against one group. And that's trash. Whether it's white trash, black trash, Hispanic trash, Jewish trash, Christian trash, Pagan trash, Celtic trash, German trash etc... I can't stand trash. And as I age, I seem to be less and less tolerant of it.

Do either of you feel any prejudices?
justcurious,
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#874184 - 08/18/03 03:53 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
After months of observation (quite intensive at one point) it is my considered opinion that at least half of the strong disagreements on this FOrum are because of incomplete reading of a Thread and/or miscontrual of a given poster because of having read his/her post excessively rapidly.

For example, pique, I have the impression that when you responded to my concern about anti-Semitism (in the Buchanan article) by remarking on anti-Semitism in the Forum,...you were not fully aware that the person most intimately associated with it in this context, was mhr who posted the article. You, Benedict and I defended mhr in various ways. I apologize if this is not true - it was a very long article and I don't think anyone read it except for me and John Andrew.

Larry was, I guess, thrilled to see a "Liberal" (whom he had attacked) being - possibly - criticised by another "Liberal" (me). So he responded with great indignation to seeing a third "Liberal" (in his book) - you - deflecting the discussion from the sins of the first "Liberal" and onto the Forum at large. Then he went into a tirade about Liberals mindlessly siding with each other (something I must confess, I have often felt was happening at the other end of the political spectrum). Indignation reigned all around, as JBryan, rvaga and fmelliot responded - not to mention justme, who felt indicted by my post (which may not have been optimally worded).

Sometimes I really don't think the Internet is a medium suited for delicate discussions of any kind. When people are defensive about something, misunderstandings are almost certain to occur - almost as the rule rather than the exception. This is not only because of sensitivity of individuals and groups, the absence of non-verbal cues, but as much as anything because of the haste with which people read and post! Especially when their emotions are enflamed.

Ariel

But at least on the Internet people cannot throw punches or rotten eggs!
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#874185 - 08/18/03 03:55 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I couldn't agree with you more, jbryan. I wish I knew a way to be 100% accurate. I don't have that capability and until then will continue to hack my way through the underbrush along with the rest of us.

I've also been falsely accused of things, and it hurts and offends deeply. I don't mean to imply that it is a "small price" and therefore should be dismissed as irrelevant or immaterial. That's what I meant by the forgiveness part. Mistakes happen, we need to apologize and forgive when they do.

In very general terms, I think people can respond to problems by trying to fix things, or by trying to find someone to blame. I view Buchanan's entire approach as trying to find someone to blame, and stirring up some of the worst in people while doing so.

Nina

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#874186 - 08/18/03 03:58 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Sometimes I really don't think the Internet is a medium suited for delicate discussions of any kind. When people are defensive about something, misunderstandings are almost certain to occur - almost as the rule rather than the exception. This is not only because of sensitivity of individuals and groups, the absence of non-verbal cues, but as much as anything to the haste with which people read and post! Especialy when their emotions are enflamed.

Ariel [/b]
Bingo! That's why I really try to limit my participation in the "political" threads, and do so against my better judgment. Someday I'll learn to take a walk instead of pound on the keyboard...

Nina

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#874187 - 08/18/03 04:02 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nina:

There are many things I will never "get." I don't "get" what it means to be from the South. I don't get what it means to be a white male, or an African American, or a lesbian, or any of a million other things. I also believe that if entire segments of your family haven't been systematically hunted down, imprisoned and murdered, you may not "get" why Jews may be a bit sensitive about these things.

Sometimes accusations are wrongly made. In my personal moral calculus, that's a small price to be paid when sending the message that anti-Semitism (or any other blanket "hate" message) will not be tolerated.

Nina [/b]
My direct ancestors were[/b] hunted, imprisoned, murdered, their land and possessions were confiscated, and our name was outlawed. They escaped to Ireland and then the U.S. where they faced unfair discrimination, persecution, and violence but I've been told that wasn't enough for us to "get it". So I've tried to live by those truths that are self-evident as in the Declaration of Independence.

Blanket hate messages should not be tolerated whether it's a skinhead or Al Sharpton. Calling someone a racist because you don't agree with what he says is no different than calling other socially unacceptable names, IMO.

No one responded to the Buchanan comments because no one agrees with him and we've said that. His support has shrunk and will continue to do so as more discover his wacko position. "Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse." Prov 9:7
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#874188 - 08/18/03 04:06 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Indignation reigned all around, as JBryan and fmelliot responded - not to mention justme, who felt indicted by my post (which may not have been optimally worded).

[/b]
Ariel,

For the record, I believe you meant Jolly instead of JBryan here. Also for the record, in case I have not made it abundantly clear, the views of Pat Buchannan and myself are not, shall we say, congruent. He also does not find much of a following among what I know as "Conservatives". However, it seems to delight some people no end to keep calling him a Conservative rather than what he is. A reactionary, isolationist, bigot.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#874189 - 08/18/03 04:18 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
If anyone took offense at my previous post, please forgive me. I had just found out that one of my best friends had a glioblastoma removed and that the median life expectancy is less than 1 year.

Logging out for more important things.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#874190 - 08/18/03 04:39 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Now I'll try to delve into the Israeli/American support issue, and deliver a warning at the same time.

There has been conjecture earlier in this thread that an entire race may be at risk. The small nation of Israel, a country that you can see across in some places from a high enough elevation, is probably at more risk today, than at anytime since 1947.

Many of the Left side of the aisle would have us believe that most support for Israel emanates from that side of the aisle. I would think the general tone of foreign policy speeches from that side of the political spectrum, should have American pro-Israeli factions reexamining the support they are receiving.

When push comes to shove, when bullets start flying, when the call comes to put American boots on Israeli soil, and shed American blood to protect the sovereignty of Israel as a nation, I'd like for many of you to notice who in this nation will support that action.

The truth of who Israel's friends may turn out to be, may be the very same body politik so many of you find so anathemic.

Do not dis-couple yourself from those who will die to defend you, while praising those who would let your bones bleach in the sun.
_________________________
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#874191 - 08/18/03 04:47 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:
If anyone took offense at my previous post, please forgive me. I had just found out that one of my best friends had a glioblastoma removed and that the median life expectancy is less than 1 year.

Logging out for more important things. [/b]
There comes a time in everyone's life when they have get their priorities in order. May there be mericles for your friend.

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#874192 - 08/18/03 04:50 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
Do either of you feel any prejudices?
justcurious, [/b]
speaking just for myself--absolutely! although as the brother of a friend of mine used to say: "i don't believe in prejudice, but there ought to be something called 'postjudice.'"

it's easier for me to not prejudge people when i don't feel threatened or unsafe. there has been a lot of hate literature distributed in my neighborhood, and the local jewish community felt so threatened by bomb threats and other threats of violence that they got an unlisted number. if you want to attend jewish services or lectures, you have to know who to ask about where to call.

i live in white supremacist country now.

that makes me fear and prejudge a certain class of people here who tend to express a lot of racial hatred: white rednecks. i probably would not announce in a group of white rednecks that i am jewish. i don't think it would be unreasonable to fear some dire consequences for doing so.

when i lived in new york city, was it prejudice for me to cross the street when i saw a gang of young black kids walking towards me? sure it was! was it also smart? i think for the time and the place (hell's kitchen in the 1980s) it was the only sensible thing to do.

does that mean that i prejudge all black young people? not at all. one-on-one i'm going to view and treat them as equal fellow humans. but in a larger social context, when it is meaningful, i am going to be afraid for my safety.

nobody is afraid of black people where i live now, so it is rare to encounter prejudice against black people. instead, they hate indians. the only explanation i can come up with for this is that indians have a sovereign nation here that competes with and controls white property rights. since i personally have nothing to fear from indians, i feel no prejudices against them.

there are times when fear is reasonable. we live in a complex society where there is a lot of anger and hatred, and we can become victims of it. i think it is important to not let reasonable fear of a particular situation become broad generalized hatred for an entire class of people. that is something i have never done, and don't believe i ever will do.

this is a good example of the kind of delicate conversation that perhaps an internet forum is just too crude a medium for discussion.

i apologize, but i really can't reply in depth to the many other comments that have been made since my earlier post. we are having a stage two air alert here from the wildfires, and the smoke and noxious poisons in the air combined with my general anesthesia hangover from surgery is making it very difficult for me to write and think.
_________________________
piqué

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Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#874193 - 08/18/03 04:55 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
you certainly seem to be doing just fine. Good luck again.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#874194 - 08/18/03 04:56 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Quoting Jolly. When push comes to shove, when bullets start flying, when the call comes to put American boots on Israeli soil, and shed American blood to protect the sovereignty of Israel as a nation, I'd like for many of you to notice who in this nation will support that action.
Jolly,

You might be surprised. That support might come from Republicans, Democrats, Independents, liberals, conservatives, and loonies.

Just because any of us question how our government supports Israel, or does not support Israel, or what we think of Israel's own policies, does not mean that when push comes to shove, most of us would not be there supporting what is our, their, and the world's best interest.

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#874195 - 08/18/03 05:06 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
I'd prefer to be surprised.

My political nose tells me I won't be. I think many of the same arguments, from many of the same factions that oppose the war so vigorously in Iraq, will be even more inclined to cut Israel's best lifeline.

On the other hand, I think many Southern conservatives, even more-so the dreaded Southern conservative Christian fundamentalists, will be the most staunch supporters Israel will have.

Strange bedfellows, if one considers the prototypical Northeastern Jew, and the stereotypical Southern conservative.
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#874196 - 08/18/03 05:22 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
bcarey and Jolly,

It's nice to think that Israel has supporters all over, at least in the US, but I am afraid as the cost becomes higher - of involvement with the Middle East in general - support may wane multilaterally.

Jolly, I assume you don't mean me when you speak of understanding that Southern fundamentalists support Israel as I am well aware of it. And who could miss that the extreme Left is pro-Palestinian almost to a man/woman?

I am afraid that the age of conventional warfare is drawing to a close. I picture something happening too rapidly for anyone to counteract. Altough I suppose one great protection Israel has is the geographical connections. It's hard to picture anyone poisoning waters that flow into their own lands, or spreading a plague that might extend to their own people, or even destroying cropland they themselves want to reclaim...Not to mention, being careful of Holy sites both sides revere.

Of course, there is the possibility ot that jealous lover syndrome - if I can't have you, no one will.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#874197 - 08/18/03 05:29 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
pique,

I am embarrassed at having to be reminded of your surgery by your mentioning it again. I had meant to say something.

I gather you were not expecting to have your knee operated on. I hope it wasn't due to a sudden injury. I know how much you love gardening and the outdoors, so it must be a dismal prospect not to be able to do it - or walk your dogs - for what will probably be a pretty long haul. At least to judge by my knee surgery (my doctor seemed to take special delight in continually reminding me that "healing is slower when you're over forty").

How IS it going? And - if you care to discuss it - what was the trouble, and what did you have done? Still on pain-killers?

Well, at least you can play the piano! Sorry about the surgery and the wildfires too. Sounds pretty hairy there right now.

Ariel

******************************************

DT:

Sorry about your friend too. It's hard to know what to say or do, sometimes. I hope your friend is near enough for you to visit at least - it can be impossible by phone.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#874198 - 08/18/03 05:33 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

Of course, there is the possibility ot that jealous lover syndrome - if I can't have you, no one will.

Ariel [/b]
Now this is a scarey thought. I should've mentioned my other prejudice. I don't like fanatics either.

pique,
Get well soon!!!!
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#874199 - 08/18/03 05:45 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Ariel wrote:
 Quote:
Jolly, I assume you don't mean me when you speak of understanding that Southern fundamentalists support Israel as I am well aware of it. And who could miss that the extreme Left is pro-Palestinian almost to a man/woman?
Nope, I don't. I think you understand that political situation better than anyone else here.
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#874200 - 08/18/03 08:48 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:


...And so, Renauda, flatulence or not, I consider Buchanan as just as dangerous as Hitler (whom - no surprise - he greatly admires).

[/b]
A flatulent clown just like Vlad Zhirinovskii. Don't get me wrong, I wholeheartedly agree, people like Zhirinovskii and Buchanan are dangerous people. Yeltsin dealt with Zhirinovskii in a very unRussian like fashion, he directed the media spotlights on him so that the country could judge for themselves that he was not only and idiot and clown but a dangerous idiot and clown to boot! The same goes for Buchanan; give him the spotlight and show the nation and the world for what he truly is- a complete nonentity. I agree with Larry, JB, and Jolly- Buchanan speaks for no one other than his own idiotic and flatulent self.

And no the far left is not anti-semitic to the man and woman. I'm not and I doubt whether Shantinik and Benedict are either, thank you very much. Actually I think sometimes the "Far Leftists" and the Conservatives on this Forum share more common sense together than the liberals. We at least see that problem with the Middle East lies with the fanatic Mullahs and are not afraid to do something about it once and for all.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#874201 - 08/18/03 09:23 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Renauda said:
 Quote:
And no the far left is not anti-semitic to the man and woman. I'm not and I doubt whether Shantinik and Benedict are either, thank you very much. [/b]
Renauda, I did not say the Far Left was "anti-Semitic" but "Pro-Palestinian"...

And as far as your identifying yourself and Shantinik and Benedict as "Far Leftist", well, I imagine you're doing this on the basis of the "Political Compass" scores (?) - where, incidentally, I too scored well into the South-West Quadrant.

But the whole point of the Political Compass is that political affiliation is a multi-dimensional quantity. I puzzled over what to say to you for a while, and I guess the difference is that it is the organized "Far Left" which has joined ranks with the Palestinian Cause (and I think I will stick to that contention, as I am more or less in touch with a couple of organizations and representative individuals).

In fact, it's so true that even the Israeli organized left of the Communist Party, Shinui and Shalom Achshav have been pro-Palestinian - at least up until now. Now all bets are off.

I suppose what changes the equation is, that I'm not referring to self-identified Leftists like you, who are, I guess modified by a Liberterian or even Anarchist leanings. Kind of "Free-Range" Radicals. As I said I am over there too score-wise.

Incidentally, although the Society of Friends conduct their meetings in a loosely structured (but consistent) way, the "sect" as a group is quite organized at present and throughout their History. And yes, true to my generalization about the "organized Left" they ARE historically far more Friendly to the Palestinians than to Israel.

Predictably so, even those of Jewish origin. In fact, they are not very popular in Israel on that account, as they can be counted on to figure prominently in Pro-Palestinian, anti-Israeli demonstrations, petitions, movements etc.

But please remember, at least, that the word I used was NOT "Anti-Semitic".

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#874202 - 08/18/03 10:17 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

I suppose what changes the equation is, that I'm not referring to self-identified Leftists like you, who are, I guess modified by a Liberterian or even Anarchist leanings. Kind of "Free-Range" Radicals. As I said I am over there too score-wise.

[/b]
Accepted. Now how we deal with the Mullahs?
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#874203 - 08/18/03 10:24 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Since I have traveled in these circles for 30 years, I can tell you that I have never -- EVER -- heard a Friend question Israel's right to exist, and the right to live in peace with its neighbors. I imagine there are Friends SOMEWHERE that do, but I've never heard 'em.

Nor do I know any religious denomination anywhere that played a greater role in rescuing Jews during World War II, or in providing material aid to the Jewish refugees after the War -- whether still in Continental Europe, in England, in the United States, or in Israel.

Having said that, we call 'em as we see 'em. It is quite clear to me that, on the whole, the Palestinians as a people haven't had many friends over the past 50 years. Certainly not among the Arab states. The number of Christian Palestinians left in Palestine is now below 5,000, and with them, the force for Palestinian secularism is on the wane, and with it, the possibilities of long-term peace.

Let's make no mistake about it: Israel is no democracy. In a democracy, anyone could be elected to high office. No non-Jew will ever be elected to high office in Israel, much as no non-Moslem will ever be President of Iran. But it is this very lack of democracy that is, in the long run, going to lead to peace. Israelis are not stupid -- they can watch the rates of population growth, both within their pre-1967 borders, and beyond. They cannot, in the long run, maintain grip without finding a way to deal with the growing number of Arabs, both within Israel, and within Palestine itself.

And the realpolitik is that they will do better to settle with the Palestinians than with another Arab state that may someday run amuck. If that makes me Pro-Palestinian, so be it.

So I am hopeful.

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#874204 - 08/18/03 10:50 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
pique,

I am embarrassed at having to be reminded of your surgery by your mentioning it again. I had meant to say something.

I gather you were not expecting to have your knee operated on. I hope it wasn't due to a sudden injury. I know how much you love gardening and the outdoors, so it must be a dismal prospect not to be able to do it - or walk your dogs - for what will probably be a pretty long haul. At least to judge by my knee surgery (my doctor seemed to take special delight in continually reminding me that "healing is slower when you're over forty").

How IS it going? And - if you care to discuss it - what was the trouble, and what did you have done? Still on pain-killers?

Well, at least you can play the piano! Sorry about the surgery and the wildfires too. Sounds pretty hairy there right now.

Ariel

[/b]
ariel, thanks for your thoughts and concern and good wishes, and empathy. it is incredibly crappy to be incapacitated in this part of the world in the summer. the only compensating thought is that even if the accident hadn't happened, i'd be stuck indoors anyway because of the smoke.

the knee is actually doing just great. the doctor wouldn't listen to me for the first six weeks after monster puppy slammed into it at 9,000 feet elevation and required me to hike out on an unstable knee across mountain snowfields, and so i was unable to walk all that time. he was convinced i tore up my five year old acl repair and wanted me to do weight training, which only made the knee collapse more.

finally he did a new high tech articular cartilage scan on the advice of his associate. the next morning i was in surgery to have torn cartilage removed. i was immediately out of pain and able to walk after the surgery, and began PT immediately. i don't even need pain killers and quit taking them almost right after surgery.

the problem has been my sensitivity to drugs and my environmental sensitivities. my liver overloaded years ago from toxic exposure, and i'm having a hard time recovering from the anesthesia. the toxins in the air from the wildfires are exacerbating the problem. i am dizzy and nauseated most of the time. i can't practice piano because my head starts spinning and i feel like i'm going to fall off the bench. i had to call my piano teacher today and beg off my lesson for this week. it's like having a vortex or a whirlpool in your head.

after i posted here earlier, i went to bed and have been sleeping most of the day. i'm not even going to try to attempt to rejoin this conversation as i don't feel confident of being able to say anything without sounding completely out to lunch (of course, i know many of you think i sound like that all the time, anyway :p my preference is that my ravings at least should ultimately make sense to me. ;\) )

i'll continue to read, though, as it is very hard to focus on anything productive, for the time being, and i find comfort in being in all of your company. i hope both the air quality and my hangover are better tomorrow.

as for the knee, it should be back to 100 percent and as good as new in a few weeks. i hope your own knee trials are also resolved soon.

btw, imnsho, your doctor should be shot for making such a comment about healing slower over forty, even in jest. one of the things i love about my doc is that he respects the needs of even middle aged people to be very active, and never suggests that we might be getting past our prime. but then, he does the acl repairs for all the local smokejumpers, and many of them are in their 50s.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#874205 - 08/18/03 11:58 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
pique, I'm truly saddened to hear about what you're having to deal with.

I honestly hope that all is well, and continues to do so.

You'll just have to bring an EMT along with you on your next excursion. Someone familiar with dogs, who has another mountain dog for yours to romp around with. Someone used to the altitude who won't suffer from H.A.P.E. at the first sign of 11k feet. Someone who also lives in a mountain state. Someone who could provide stimulating conversation. Someone who could offer Grotrian-trained servicing after the trip.
HMmmmmm who fits that bill? \:\)

but seriously, I hope all is well. Keep kickin kid

KB
_________________________
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#874206 - 08/19/03 12:46 AM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
pique,

That sounds miserable about the anesthesia. It DID seem to me that it was taking an awfully long time to wear off when you mentioned the effects again earlier today. And yours was probably a pretty brief operation, at a guess. Well, speaking as somebody who's had generals dozens of times during her life, it used to be that having a general ALWAYS took days and days to wear off - before they came up with new "lite" concoctions.

Probably the last thing you want to do is add another chemical to your body, but I will just toss out that I've had a two attacks of extreme vertigo lately, and my mother did for weeks on end. Apparently the usual medical treatment for Meuniere's/dizziness and nausea, is antihistamines - OTC, something like Benadryl. It's awful that your liver can't break down the chemicals normally. \:\(

BTW my surgeon is the one who does the knees of the Penn State football team (so I figured he was good), but being mostly in sports medicine, he's not quite as used to middle aged knees. Since he's my age, I can't fault him too much for his "agist" remarks. ;\)

FWIW it seems that even after age thirty cartilage can't repair itself, which is why they just remove it when it's torn (speaking as somebody missing almost her whole right medial meniscus and part of her left).

Yes, FINALLY I'm able to walk almost without pain except down stairs. But no more running - which hurts - as it was a favorite recreation and therapy. And my back won't allow me to just walk. Somehow running (only on a padded treadmill at the end) was OK. I will need a joint replacement down the road, though.

It's all because of wrecking the joint before my son's Bar Mitzvah. I fell and just had to keep going as there was nobody to do the legwork and other stuff but me. And then I fell three more times as the joint was unstable, and that pretty well finished it off.

It was a hellish period. Besides conflict with his father, my best friend died unexpectedly in the months before (four months from diagnosis to succumbing) and I wasn't even able to attend her Memorial Service. Plus my dog became suddenly ill right beforehand (I know you'll sympathize with this). After intensive nursing care (and expense), she died in absolute agony only one week before the blessed event. Poor Toony (our Sheltie).

I wouldn't relive that time for anything in the world. Well, back to you after my self-indulgent wallowing...

That smoke sounds suffocating even from here = all the worse for you with all your sensitivities. I hope you have air conditioning. And a HEPA air cleaner would probably help too. What a shame you can't even play the piano! \:\( \:\( Thank God for books!

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#874207 - 08/19/03 01:38 AM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
hey, kb, you would be most welcome to join me on any future mountain excursions. you're not only a mountaineer and a grotrian expert, but an EMT too? with a dog? we'd better start planning now! \:D
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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