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#873878 - 08/11/03 08:11 PM Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
mhr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 128
Hi All,

With the latest right-wing antics in CA to unseat an elected Governor and the continuing lies and deceit of Bush, I wonder if others are seriously considering residence elsewhere.

For me, if Bush is reelected in 2004 I will be leaving for either Canada, New Zealand, or Australia. It all depends on where I can get in.

The thought of watching this country further destroyed by four more years of Bush is saddening beyond belief. I for one do not want to be associated with the Bush debacle any longer.

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#873879 - 08/11/03 08:15 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Bye.

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#873880 - 08/11/03 08:29 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
mhr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 128
Well Dwain,

That truly was profound.

Might you be one of those right-wingers incapable of completing a sentence?

Your reply would suggest so.

I'd suggest more education.

Food for thought.

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#873881 - 08/11/03 08:37 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well, there's good news, even on that front:

http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20030811/northwest/73159.shtml

This is an amazing story. If you've even been to Tonasket, you'd know there are NO Democrats. No liberals (interesting, though - 23% of the town is on some form of public assistance.)

So now there's a trivia question: what do this left-wing hotbeds -- Madison, WI, Amherst, MA, and Tonasket, WA have in common?

Interesting to see if this catches on in Republicanvilles across the country.

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#873882 - 08/11/03 08:50 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
to mhr,

Yes. But not precisely for the reasons you gave (although I do find it harder to identify as an American when I feel alienated by our countries' present policies).

I lived overseas so long, I feel like a piece of me is missing wherever I go. I'd like to return to Europe and even Israel (where I have citizenship)...Trouble is, I'm too poor and unhealthy to contemplate it. The dollar's too low too. What's more, it's much harder to fit in and create a network when you're not a kid. And I'm sure those countries have changed too.

Maybe sometime traveling with one or both sons (would also help with the luggage!). Of course, then I won't get to practice the languages much...

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#873883 - 08/11/03 08:54 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
SR Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 718
Loc: Los Angeles
 Quote:
Originally posted by mhr:
Hi All,


For me, if Bush is reelected in 2004 I will be leaving for either Canada, New Zealand, or Australia. It all depends on where I can get in.

[/b]
Ok if it makes you happy I'll try and construct a sentence. Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out. Happy now ?

Perhaps you can stow away in Alec Baldwins luggage. He's going to leave if Bush gets elected. But wait, he didn't did he ? I'm sure you'll disappoint us as well.

Regards

Steve
_________________________
www.mozartforum.com

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#873884 - 08/11/03 09:07 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Shantinik, A couple of guesses:

1) Did they all, perchance, vote somehow condemning the Patriots' Act???

2) Is it that all three have A's, N's and S's in their names?

3) Is it that all are within a hundred miles or so (c. 3 degrees) of the same latitude?

So when do you tell us the answer?

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#873885 - 08/11/03 09:11 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
mhr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 128
Well Steve,

I wouldn't be so smug if I were you.

You don't know me or what I have accomplished in my life.

To say the least, I am no lightweight.

If I make my mind up, I usually follow through.

In the meantime, I do all that I can to counter right-wingers like yourself.

Incidentally, I have yet to meet a Republican that cannot be reduced to a quivering bowl of jelly inside of five minutes.

If I do leave, it will be to a better place than Bush's Gestapo-like Amerika.

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#873886 - 08/11/03 09:22 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Shantinik, A couple of guesses:

1) Did they all, perchance, vote somehow condemning the Patriots' Act???

2) Is it that all three have A's, N's and S's in their names?

3) Is it that all are within a hundred miles or so (c. 3 degrees) of the same latitude?

So when do you tell us the answer?

Ariel [/b]
You scored okay. The difference being, however, that in Republicanville (Tonasket), they've made it against the law to carry out the Patriot Act's provisions. (and up there, the sheriff is next to God, and outranks Ashcroft by a looonnnnggg way. )

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#873887 - 08/11/03 09:28 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
Well, there's good news, even on that front:

http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20030811/northwest/73159.shtml
[/b]
VERY interesting and encouraging article. There are many school districts who are rejecting the Bush take-over of local school curriculum as well.

Since we are posting articles, this one was in the Sunday Los Angeles Times. Written by a conservative, it has a very interesting viewpoint about the Bush Administration. Maybe there is hope from the right as well as the left.

Since the LA Times website requires registration, here is the whole thing.

Stepping Off the Platform
By Clyde Prestowitz
Clyde Prestowitz is author of "Rogue Nation" and president of the Economic Strategy Institute. He was a trade negotiator in the Reagan administration.

President Reagan once explained his political switch during the 1950s from the Democrats to the Republicans by saying, "I didn't leave the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party left me." In these days of neoconservative ascendancy among Republicans, traditional conservative Republicans like me increasingly understand how Reagan felt. But this time it's the Republicans who are leaving us.

We conservatives have historically been skeptical of ambitious campaigns abroad aimed at remaking the world. It was the great British conservative philosopher Edmund Burke who cautioned against imperialism by saying: "I dread our being too much dreaded." It was President Dwight D. Eisenhower who argued that "we must not destroy what we are attempting to defend" and who further noted that "an empire on which the sun would never set is one in which the rulers never sleep." And it was John Quincy Adams who warned that if America became "dictatress of the world" then "she would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit."

Traditional conservatives were pleased during the election campaign of 2000 when candidate George W. Bush spoke of the need for a more humble approach to U.S. foreign policy and for reducing excessive U.S. deployments abroad. It therefore came as a shock when the Bush administration seemed to go out of its way to insult and irritate longtime friends and allies.

Take, for instance, the Kyoto Protocol on global warming, a pact beloved by many of America's allies, including Britain. Traditional conservatives generally opposed it because they thought it unfair to U.S. interests. But it had not been submitted for approval to the U.S. Senate in the summer of 2001 and was not going to be because there was no way the Senate would ratify it. Since it was effectively in limbo, many conservatives wondered why the new administration felt a need to take the treaty out of hibernation and loudly reject it, thereby needlessly alienating our allies.

More surprising and of greater concern was the reversal by a small group of self-styled neoconservatives, in the wake of Sept. 11, of Reagan's winning Cold War strategy. The U.S. commitment to "no first strike" and deterrence that brought down the Berlin Wall and the Soviet Union was tossed over the side in favor of a doctrine of preventive and preemptive wars. Out, too, were long-term alliances like NATO, and in their place came temporary and shifting "coalitions of the willing."

We were told that Saddam Hussein with his weapons of mass destruction and close ties to Al Qaeda was an imminent threat to the United States in response to which we had to strike before being struck. Subsequently, in the absence of any trace of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, we have been told the real reason for the invasion was to change the whole nature of the Middle East by recasting it in an American democratic capitalist mold.

So now America has a "mission" that neoconservatives have openly called one of imperialism. This is not what conservatives voted for, nor is it consistent with America's historical anti-imperialism.

Even more important than foreign policy is what's happening on the home front. Traditional conservative Republicans have always been for small government and fiscal responsibility with budgets balanced over time. They have also always emphasized protection of individual rights and supported strong state and local governments. These core conservative values have now been all but rejected.

Take the issue of big government. Although it is often associated with social programs, big government is more often the result of expansion of military programs than of anything else. The Pentagon is by far the biggest part of the U.S. government, and it is growing so fast that its spending will soon top that of all the world's other military establishments combined. Conservatives have always been opposed to rampant bureaucracy, but the new Department of Homeland Security represents a huge bureaucratic conglomerate only slightly behind the Pentagon.

As for balanced budgets, even the Congressional Budget Office's projections show that the surpluses of the 1990s have turned into endless oceans of red ink. The Patriot Act along with new visa regulations and guidelines for investigative agencies has imposed the greatest constraints on individual American freedoms since the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II.

Then there is the plight of the states and local governments, of which California is only the most dramatic example. After the federal interventionism of the Clinton administration, traditional conservatives expected a Republican administration to reemphasize, at least to some extent, the rightful powers and authority of state and local governments. Instead, there has been a plethora of federal mandates to the already cash-strapped states, all without any federal funding. Moreover, in areas like educational testing and drug policy, the overriding of state and local government policies through the imposition of federal standards and rules has continued and even accelerated.

The irony here is that it is the supposedly liberal Democrats who are talking about fiscal responsibility, limited government, individual rights and caution on grand missions abroad. So more and more traditional conservatives have been asking the question: Who are really the liberals, and who are the conservatives? Indeed, it was Maine Sen. Olympia J. Snowe, a Republican and member of the traditionally conservative Main Street Coalition, who played a key role in capping Bush's tax cuts at $350 billion; and a large number of Republicans revolted against the neoconservative leadership to vote down new Federal Communications Commission rules allowing further mergers of large media companies. Perhaps this indicates that traditional Republicans are making an important discovery about who they are and where they belong.

There is nothing neo about imperialism. It is just as un-American today as it was in 1776. And there is nothing conservative about the giant military-industrial establishment, budget deficits or failing local and state governments. Far from conservatism, this is radicalism of the right, and it is unsustainable because it is at odds with fundamental — and truly conservative — American values.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#873888 - 08/11/03 09:35 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
StanSteel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 646
Loc: Los Angeles
I am just hoping Arnold Schwartzenegger can be governor of CA. That would be nice.
So far Federal Bushit and Gravis Califonia is not the best combination for people's wallet, unless you are a rich entrepreneur with caps in Oil industry and Biotech of course. Also if you were in at least one war in which the US either killed the bad guys or had the intention to do so, but didn't make it because their international allies were stupid newbs.
If you are sick, old, injured, you wash restrooms at the local Safeway. Then please be informed that your paycheck may decrease due to budget cuts that will affect the State as a whole. Please be sure that they apologize for the inconvenience this may cause, if you have any questions, please contact them. But be aware that they will not answer.
_________________________
"War does not determine who is right; only who is left."

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#873889 - 08/11/03 09:36 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by mhr:
Hi All,

With the latest right-wing antics in CA to unseat an elected Governor and the continuing lies and deceit of Bush, I wonder if others are seriously considering residence elsewhere.

For me, if Bush is reelected in 2004 I will be leaving for either Canada, New Zealand, or Australia. It all depends on where I can get in.

The thought of watching this country further destroyed by four more years of Bush is saddening beyond belief. I for one do not want to be associated with the Bush debacle any longer. [/b]
mhr

You are not the first person I have heard say the same thing. My response to others? Don't leave. The pendulum always swings back and the American people are not that stupid to not realize what is happening. The US is too powerful to be allowed to stay in this state. People like you are needed to make sure this power is not all sucked up and used by those who are so wrong.

I read an article the other day about the California Recall. The author postulated that the recall has little to do with Gray Davis. It has everything to do with people's pent-up anger and frustration over everything that has been happening in this country since Bush was elected. Davis just happens to be the recipient of it because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The author also said that he believes the anger will spread across the US and that the 2004 election may not be anything like what anyone expects. He thinks it may parallel the sea change of the 1994 mid-term election when the people were so angry they threw the Democrats out of their seats in Congress and gave control to the GOP.

He is speculating of course. The one thing I know, though, is there are a lot of angry people out there. So maybe this author is right.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#873890 - 08/11/03 09:44 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
StanSteel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 646
Loc: Los Angeles
John,
thanks for posting the Prestowitz article. It's great!
_________________________
"War does not determine who is right; only who is left."

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#873891 - 08/11/03 09:53 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
mhr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 128
Hi John,

I truly hope that your observations portend a change.

I do see chinks in the Bush Administration's armor, even from established conservatives.

I can understand how Californians could be upset. What I don't understand is why Californians don't see the connection between Enron, Cheney's secret energy meetings, and California's sky high electricity rates. If it were not for the gouging that California took from Enron and others, I am sure the state's budget would be in better shape.

Despite my misgivings and the non-stop conservative media bias, I will do my part through next year's elections. After that who knows?

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#873892 - 08/11/03 09:57 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
SR Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 718
Loc: Los Angeles
 Quote:
Originally posted by mhr:
Well Steve,

I wouldn't be so smug if I were you.

You don't know me or what I have accomplished in my life.

To say the least, I am no lightweight.

If I make my mind up, I usually follow through.

In the meantime, I do all that I can to counter right-wingers like yourself.

Incidentally, I have yet to meet a Republican that cannot be reduced to a quivering bowl of jelly inside of five minutes.

If I do leave, it will be to a better place than Bush's Gestapo-like Amerika. [/b]
A.... Not smug here, you challenged for a sentence I did it. Proud but not smug.


B.... Correct I don't know you, although you sound like a quiter. Afraid to stay and fight for what you believe ? BTW you call California "antics" are you a Californian ? I am.
Getting rid of a Governor who was elected on the basis of a lie, and took a State from excess to a deficit larger than all other states combined is not an antic. Registration fee for my lousy Honda Civic is going from $200 a year to $600. Not an antic to me. If you were Californian you would probably just leave. Republicans here have chosen to take the difficult road of recall rather than let Davis drive us further under. The recall petition signatures were from patriots of both parties.

C.... So say you


D.... There's that cop out word "usually" Alec usually leaves, but he's still here.


E.... When was it that I said I was a right winger ? It's odd you don't like me assuming anything about you, but you do so about me.

F..... I'm quivering with excitement at the prospect. Please give us a demo.

G..... Please give some factual comparisons of Bush to the Gestapo. Perhaps you have some examples to back up your claim. Torture, murder, false imprisonment, destruction of property of American citizens ? BTW it's spelled America, you show your true colors with your substitutiom of a k. Quite the patriot. Right wingers put up with 8 years of slick Willie, surely you can get past more than the first two of George.


Regards

Steve
_________________________
www.mozartforum.com

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#873893 - 08/11/03 10:06 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
mhr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 128
Steve,

I would not waste my time debating you on a forum like this. If we ever meet in person, I'll give you the full salvo.

As to being a quitter you are way off the mark:

Bachelor of Science, Electrical Engineering,
Masters in Business Administration,
Veteran, Officer US Navy, Honorable Discharge,
Commercial Pilot, with SE, ME, and Instrument ratings.

Quitter, I think not.

When you would like to have a match pounding sand let me know!

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#873894 - 08/11/03 10:16 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
I have really been missing LP and his active dislike of the Bush administration. However MHR - I think you'll do.. My how I love cocky people.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#873895 - 08/11/03 10:28 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
SR posted:
 Quote:
Right wingers put up with 8 years of slick Willie, surely you can get past more than two of George. [/b]
Steve, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but it's not a question of my willingness to put up with a president who does not speak for me or my values. Sure I could wait out a few years years if that's all it was.

I'm afraid of the irreparable damage the Bush administration is doing to our international relations, the economy and the environment. That means not only our own, but the world's, because of the inter-relatedness of everything these days. Damage my children will have to pay for one way or the other. And no, I don't think what I'm referring to has a thing to do with the "War against Terrorism".

I just cannot understand - maybe you can help me - why it is that Republicans support a President whose fiscal poicies are so in contradiction to traditional conservative values - of actually "being conservative", especially with money.

I know a billionaire (literally) who is livid about the tax cuts even though he's in that rarified percent of a percent of the population who stands to benefit becasue of the damage he feels is being done to the economy at large! And then, of course, there's Bill Gates Sr.

How? Why? Is it just partisan loyalty - especially when in "mixed company" (such as on this Forum) that is, liberals present, where it might be regarded as giving aid and comfort to the enemy to express any doubts?

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#873896 - 08/11/03 10:49 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
mhr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 128
Hi Ariel,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. To add to your comments on the economy, many people missed the Washington Post article by Warren Buffet where he questioned the Bush tax cuts on equity dividends.

In part his argument went like this, why give me all this money when I am already rich and cannot spend it or invest it fast enough to do the economy any good. He advocated a middle and lower income tax break instead.

One wonders about the state of our society when men with the stature of Warren Buffet cannot abide by Republican policies?

The complete article is copied below.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13113-2003May19.html

Dividend Voodoo

By Warren Buffett

Tuesday, May 20, 2003; Page A19

The annual Forbes 400 lists prove that -- with occasional blips -- the rich do indeed get richer. Nonetheless, the Senate voted last week to supply major aid to the rich in their pursuit of even greater wealth.

The Senate decided that the dividends an individual receives should be 50 percent free of tax in 2003, 100 percent tax-free in 2004 through 2006 and then again fully taxable in 2007. The mental flexibility the Senate demonstrated in crafting these zigzags is breathtaking. What it has put in motion, though, is clear: If enacted, these changes would further tilt the tax scales toward the rich.

Let me, as a member of that non-endangered species, give you an example of how the scales are currently balanced. The taxes I pay to the federal government, including the payroll tax that is paid for me by my employer, Berkshire Hathaway, are roughly the same proportion of my income -- about 30 percent -- as that paid by the receptionist in our office. My case is not atypical -- my earnings, like those of many rich people, are a mix of capital gains and ordinary income -- nor is it affected by tax shelters (I've never used any). As it works out, I pay a somewhat higher rate for my combination of salary, investment and capital gain income than our receptionist does. But she pays a far higher portion of her income in payroll taxes than I do.

She's not complaining: Both of us know we were lucky to be born in America. But I was luckier in that I came wired at birth with a talent for capital allocation -- a valuable ability to have had in this country during the past half-century. Credit America for most of this value, not me. If the receptionist and I had both been born in, say, Bangladesh, the story would have been far different. There, the market value of our respective talents would not have varied greatly.

Now the Senate says that dividends should be tax-free to recipients. Suppose this measure goes through and the directors of Berkshire Hathaway (which does not now pay a dividend) therefore decide to pay $1 billion in dividends next year. Owning 31 percent of Berkshire, I would receive $310 million in additional income, owe not another dime in federal tax, and see my tax rate plunge to 3 percent.

And our receptionist? She'd still be paying about 30 percent, which means she would be contributing about 10 times the proportion of her income that I would to such government pursuits as fighting terrorism, waging wars and supporting the elderly. Let me repeat the point: Her overall federal tax rate would be 10 times what my rate would be.

When I was young, President Kennedy asked Americans to "pay any price, bear any burden" for our country. Against that challenge, the 3 percent overall federal tax rate I would pay -- if a Berkshire dividend were to be tax-free -- seems a bit light.

Administration officials say that the $310 million suddenly added to my wallet would stimulate the economy because I would invest it and thereby create jobs. But they conveniently forget that if Berkshire kept the money, it would invest that same amount, creating jobs as well.

The Senate's plan invites corporations -- indeed, virtually commands them -- to contort their behavior in a major way. Were the plan to be enacted, shareholders would logically respond by asking the corporations they own to pay no more dividends in 2003, when they would be partially taxed, but instead to pay the skipped amounts in 2004, when they'd be tax-free. Similarly, in 2006, the last year of the plan, companies should pay double their normal dividend and then avoid dividends altogether in 2007.

Overall, it's hard to conceive of anything sillier than the schedule the Senate has laid out. Indeed, the first President Bush had a name for such activities: "voodoo economics." The manipulation of enactment and sunset dates of tax changes is Enron-style accounting, and a Congress that has recently demanded honest corporate numbers should now look hard at its own practices.

Proponents of cutting tax rates on dividends argue that the move will stimulate the economy. A large amount of stimulus, of course, should already be on the way from the huge and growing deficit the government is now running. I have no strong views on whether more action on this front is warranted. But if it is, don't cut the taxes of people with huge portfolios of stocks held directly. (Small investors owning stock held through 401(k)s are already tax-favored.) Instead, give reductions to those who both need and will spend the money gained. Enact a Social Security tax "holiday" or give a flat-sum rebate to people with low incomes. Putting $1,000 in the pockets of 310,000 families with urgent needs is going to provide far more stimulus to the economy than putting the same $310 million in my pockets.

When you listen to tax-cut rhetoric, remember that giving one class of taxpayer a "break" requires -- now or down the line -- that an equivalent burden be imposed on other parties. In other words, if I get a break, someone else pays. Government can't deliver a free lunch to the country as a whole. It can, however, determine who pays for lunch. And last week the Senate handed the bill to the wrong party.

Supporters of making dividends tax-free like to paint critics as promoters of class warfare. The fact is, however, that their proposal promotes class welfare. For my class.

The writer is chief executive officer of Berkshire Hathaway Inc., a diversified holding company, and a director of The Washington Post Co., which has an investment in Berkshire Hathaway.

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#873897 - 08/11/03 10:49 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
I was so confused by the way you were treating people. But not everything seems pretty clear.

I'm sure your line of credentials are really impressive to some, but to someone who never even finished High School like myself they don't really mean too much.
Commercial pilot's license is pretty cool though, do you enjoy flying, and have you been lucky enough to stay employed? I hope so...

As for leaving the country... I see why some might want to leave when things get tough. I was pretty excited to move to Germany when I did. I wasn't excited about paying over 50% tax and VAT though. "But wait, being sick, socialist medicine will be awesome" I told myself. Unfortunately I was wrong. As with all things, you get what you pay for.

If leaving is what you want to do I don't see why anyone would have a problem with it. Obviously you're hoping we will (why else bring up the question), but all those crazy right-wingers are going to be excited about one less crazy left-winger to worry about.

I'd tempt you to reduce me to a bowl of jello (TM), but then you'd tell me I wasn't truly a right-winger so I won't.

KlavierBauer
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#873898 - 08/11/03 11:06 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
mhr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 128
Hi KlavierBauer,

I posted my question to get a sense of the people. What are people thinking these days? How do they view the future?

It is pretty typical to get the conservative response posted by Steve. Any criticism of the US is viewed as unpatriotic. This does not work for me as I voluntarily served this country in the US Navy, and did so proudly.

That said, the current regime in charge of this country is destroying the America I know and love. To me, Bush is a repugnant historical reminder of the precursors and perils of tyranny.

I apologize if it seemed that I was bragging. That is not the case. Steve accused me of being a quitter. That charge cannot go without challenge and I rebutted his assertion. The list of achievements only indicates that I complete what I set out to accomplish, nothing more.

As to employment, no, I am currently unemployed. The aviation industry was devastated by 9/11 and the sluggish economy. Hence, aviation jobs are few and far between.

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#873899 - 08/11/03 11:16 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Great mhr! you'll have time to post at length and often. I am glad you are here. [rock1]
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#873900 - 08/11/03 11:22 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by SR:

B.... Correct I don't know you, although you sound like a quiter. Afraid to stay and fight for what you believe ? BTW you call California "antics" are you a Californian ? I am.
Getting rid of a Governor who was elected on the basis of a lie, and took a State from excess to a deficit larger than all other states combined is not an antic. Registration fee for my lousy Honda Civic is going from $200 a year to $600. Not an antic to me. If you were Californian you would probably just leave. Republicans here have chosen to take the difficult road of recall rather than let Davis drive us further under. The recall petition signatures were from patriots of both parties.
[/b]
Steve

Do you hold the Bush Administration to the same fiscal standard? After all, their deficit is going to have to be paid by taxes some day as well.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#873901 - 08/11/03 11:25 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
mhr:
A good friend of mine is a pilot for United. He's somehow managed to hold his job this long, but that hope changes monthly.

I'm sorry you feel so ill of Bush. Part of me thinks he's incredibly misunderstood, while the rest of me sadly doesn't care enough to really learn what's really going on.

He's certainly done some things that I don't agree with, but I think he's genuinely tried to do the right thing. I'm just not sure he always knows what that is.

I would encourage you though, that if you believe in democracy, then stick around and make your voice heard. If you and the majority of others agree, then you will change things (please don't bring up the '00 election)

Make your voice heard, and make this place what you want it to be, that's the American dream.

KlavierBauer
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#873902 - 08/11/03 11:33 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Your qualifications are no more, or less, than many who post here.

Few who last around here can be reduced to "quivering masses of Jello".

As for leaving California, or the U.S., it's a free country.

Unlike many you could be moving to....
_________________________
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#873903 - 08/11/03 11:36 PM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
SR Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 718
Loc: Los Angeles
 Quote:
Originally posted by mhr:
Hi KlavierBauer,

I posted my question to get a sense of the people. What are people thinking these days? How do they view the future?

It is pretty typical to get the conservative response posted by Steve. Any criticism of the US is viewed as unpatriotic. This does not work for me as I voluntarily served this country in the US Navy, and did so proudly.

That said, the current regime in charge of this country is destroying the America I know and love. To me, Bush is a repugnant historical reminder of the precursors and perils of tyranny.

I apologize if it seemed that I was bragging. That is not the case. Steve accused me of being a quitter. That charge cannot go without challenge and I rebutted his assertion. The list of achievements only indicates that I complete what I set out to accomplish, nothing more.

As to employment, no, I am currently unemployed. The aviation industry was devastated by 9/11 and the sluggish economy. Hence, aviation jobs are few and far between. [/b]
I accuse you of being unpatriotic, to get more blunt, because of your spelling of the name of my country. I know of no American who would insult her with the misspell "Amerika" that you used. The "K" key is nowhere near the "C" key, it was not an accident. A real American would not insult his home with a mispelling like that no matter which party is in the White House.

You started this thread threatening to leave because you are unhappy. Leaving is what quitters do. You insulted one of the most eloquent participants on this board by accusing him of being unable to form a sentence just because he choose to not beg you to stay in America, and offered the simple word "Bye". I formed a sentence for you and you responded in a very braggy manner about your as yet unamed accomplishments, threatening to turn right wingers into quivering bowls of jelly. Now you have offered a list or credits that certainly may be true (or not). Do you think you're the only person on this board who has any credits ? Most of us don't mention them.

We got off to a bad start here which I regret, however it frosts me when people say things are just so awful that there going to pack up and leave. I'm not going to convince you to stay., if thats what you're fishing for. There are too many hard working immigrants worldwide that risk death to come here and want your slot. America has immigrants coming from all over the world. If we're so bad why do they come ?

Regards

Steve
_________________________
www.mozartforum.com

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#873904 - 08/12/03 12:13 AM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
mhr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 128
Typical Responses Jolly and Steve,

As to your question Steve, I spelled America, "Amerika", specifically to anger you. I have had months of dueling online with the arguments you proffer. Hence, I know what the hot buttons are.

For me, the America I served for in the US Navy and the America we now live in is not the America I grew up to support and defend.

In Bush's Amerika, we are quickly moving toward a theocracy and plutocracy. History shows that societies following this path typically become authoritarian and totalitarian, witness the Patriot Act and the pending Patriot Act II. I personally believe in Democracy, not rule by wealthy elites.

When you are done reviewing that legislation, try reading about PNAC (Progress for a New American Century) and the plans for empire that drive many members of the Bush administration. I seem to remember Bush emphatically stating he did not believe in "nation building." How quickly people forget.

If you choose to live in a society that promotes the divisiveness sponsored by Bush, that is your choice. If I choose otherwise, it is not because I dislike the idea of America it is because I dislike what Amerika is becoming under Bush's rule.

I think that Jefferson said it best:

When people fear the government, tyranny prevails;
When government fears the people, liberty prevails.

PS - KlavierBauer, I for one will not "get over" the 2000 election. If you honestly believe that all was fair in that affair, go read Greg Palast's book The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. He DOCUMENTS how Jeb Bush and Kathleen Harris rigged the Florida Presidential election to insure that George would win.

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#873905 - 08/12/03 12:41 AM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
mhr Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 128
Hi Steve, Dwain, and Jolly,

Here is yet another testament to how well Commander Bush is running our nation. It is always interesting when the facts are quite different than the reality posited by television.

The cited Army Times editorial is also appended.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/12/opinion/12KRUG.html

August 12, 2003
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Thanks for the M.R.E.'s
By PAUL KRUGMAN

few days ago I talked to a soldier just back from Iraq. He'd been in a relatively calm area; his main complaint was about food. Four months after the fall of Baghdad, his unit was still eating the dreaded M.R.E.'s: meals ready to eat. When Italian troops moved into the area, their food was "way more realistic" — and American troops were soon trading whatever they could for some of that Italian food.

Other stories are far worse. Letters published in Stars and Stripes and e-mail published on the Web site of Col. David Hackworth (a decorated veteran and Pentagon critic) describe shortages of water. One writer reported that in his unit, "each soldier is limited to two 1.5-liter bottles a day," and that inadequate water rations were leading to "heat casualties." An American soldier died of heat stroke on Saturday; are poor supply and living conditions one reason why U.S. troops in Iraq are suffering such a high rate of noncombat deaths?

The U.S. military has always had superb logistics. What happened? The answer is a mix of penny-pinching and privatization — which makes our soldiers' discomfort a symptom of something more general.

Colonel Hackworth blames "dilettantes in the Pentagon" who "thought they could run a war and an occupation on the cheap." But the cheapness isn't restricted to Iraq. In general, the "support our troops" crowd draws the line when that support might actually cost something.

The usually conservative Army Times has run blistering editorials on this subject. Its June 30 blast, titled "Nothing but Lip Service," begins: "In recent months, President Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress have missed no opportunity to heap richly deserved praise on the military. But talk is cheap — and getting cheaper by the day, judging from the nickel-and-dime treatment the troops are getting lately." The article goes on to detail a series of promises broken and benefits cut.

Military corner-cutting is part of a broader picture of penny-wise-pound-foolish government. When it comes to tax cuts or subsidies to powerful interest groups, money is no object. But elsewhere, including homeland security, small-government ideology reigns. The Bush administration has been unwilling to spend enough on any aspect of homeland security, whether it's providing firefighters and police officers with radios or protecting the nation's ports. The decision to pull air marshals off some flights to save on hotel bills — reversed when the public heard about it — was simply a sound-bite-worthy example. (Air marshals have told MSNBC.com that a "witch hunt" is now under way at the Transportation Security Administration, and that those who reveal cost-cutting measures to the media are being threatened with the Patriot Act.)

There's also another element in the Iraq logistical snafu: privatization. The U.S. military has shifted many tasks traditionally performed by soldiers into the hands of such private contractors as Kellogg Brown & Root, the Halliburton subsidiary. The Iraq war and its aftermath gave this privatized system its first major test in combat — and the system failed.

According to the Newhouse News Service, "U.S. troops in Iraq suffered through months of unnecessarily poor living conditions because some civilian contractors hired by the Army for logistics support failed to show up." Not surprisingly, civilian contractors — and their insurance companies — get spooked by war zones. The Financial Times reports that the dismal performance of contractors in Iraq has raised strong concerns about what would happen in a war against a serious opponent, like North Korea.

Military privatization, like military penny-pinching, is part of a pattern. Both for ideological reasons and, one suspects, because of the patronage involved, the people now running the country seem determined to have public services provided by private corporations, no matter what the circumstances. For example, you may recall that in the weeks after 9/11 the Bush administration and its Congressional allies fought tooth and nail to leave airport screening in the hands of private security companies, giving in only in the face of overwhelming public pressure. In Iraq, reports The Baltimore Sun, "the Bush administration continues to use American corporations to perform work that United Nations agencies and nonprofit aid groups can do more cheaply."

In short, the logistical mess in Iraq isn't an isolated case of poor planning and mismanagement: it's telling us what's wrong with our current philosophy of government.

-----------------

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-1954515.php

June 30, 2003

Editorial
Nothing but lip service

In recent months, President Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress have missed no opportunity to heap richly deserved praise on the military. But talk is cheap — and getting cheaper by the day, judging from the nickel-and-dime treatment the troops are getting lately.

For example, the White House griped that various pay-and-benefits incentives added to the 2004 defense budget by Congress are wasteful and unnecessary — including a modest proposal to double the $6,000 gratuity paid to families of troops who die on active duty. This comes at a time when Americans continue to die in Iraq at a rate of about one a day.

Similarly, the administration announced that on Oct. 1 it wants to roll back recent modest increases in monthly imminent-danger pay (from $225 to $150) and family-separation allowance (from $250 to $100) for troops getting shot at in combat zones.

Then there’s military tax relief — or the lack thereof. As Bush and Republican leaders in Congress preach the mantra of tax cuts, they can’t seem to find time to make progress on minor tax provisions that would be a boon to military homeowners, reservists who travel long distances for training and parents deployed to combat zones, among others.

Incredibly, one of those tax provisions — easing residency rules for service members to qualify for capital-gains exemptions when selling a home — has been a homeless orphan in the corridors of power for more than five years now.

The chintz even extends to basic pay. While Bush’s proposed 2004 defense budget would continue higher targeted raises for some ranks, he also proposed capping raises for E-1s, E-2s and O-1s at 2 percent, well below the average raise of 4.1 percent.

The Senate version of the defense bill rejects that idea, and would provide minimum 3.7 percent raises for all and higher targeted hikes for some. But the House version of the bill goes along with Bush, making this an issue still to be hashed out in upcoming negotiations.

All of which brings us to the latest indignity — Bush’s $9.2 billion military construction request for 2004, which was set a full $1.5 billion below this year’s budget on the expectation that Congress, as has become tradition in recent years, would add funding as it drafted the construction appropriations bill.

But Bush’s tax cuts have left little elbow room in the 2004 federal budget that is taking shape, and the squeeze is on across the board.

The result: Not only has the House Appropriations military construction panel accepted Bush’s proposed $1.5 billion cut, it voted to reduce construction spending by an additional $41 million next year.

Rep. David Obey, D-Wis., senior Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee, took a stab at restoring $1 billion of the $1.5 billion cut in Bush’s construction budget. He proposed to cover that cost by trimming recent tax cuts for the roughly 200,000 Americans who earn more than $1 million a year. Instead of a tax break of $88,300, they would receive $83,500.

The Republican majority on the construction appropriations panel quickly shot Obey down. And so the outlook for making progress next year in tackling the huge backlog of work that needs to be done on crumbling military housing and other facilities is bleak at best.

Taken piecemeal, all these corner-cutting moves might be viewed as mere flesh wounds. But even flesh wounds are fatal if you suffer enough of them. It adds up to a troubling pattern that eventually will hurt morale — especially if the current breakneck operations tempo also rolls on unchecked and the tense situations in Iraq and Afghanistan do not ease.

Rep. Chet Edwards, D-Texas, who notes that the House passed a resolution in March pledging “unequivocal support” to service members and their families, puts it this way: “American military men and women don’t deserve to be saluted with our words and insulted by our actions.”

Translation: Money talks — and we all know what walks.

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#873906 - 08/12/03 12:48 AM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
MHR:

I'm not saying that election wasn't tainted. I'm just sick of people thinking every election before it wasn't. If you think presidents come to power by popular vote rather than $$, you're mistaken.

But like I said before, I'm not really willing to do anything about politics at a grass-roots level, so I really have no business talking about it.

KlavierBauer
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#873907 - 08/12/03 01:15 AM Re: Has Anyone Else Considered Leaving?
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by mhr:

Incidentally, I have yet to meet a Republican that cannot be reduced to a quivering bowl of jelly inside of five minutes.

If I do leave, it will be to a better place than Bush's Gestapo-like Amerika. [/b]
Oooohhhhh!!!!!

Hello, mhr. Meet the Republican you can't reduce to a quivering bowl of jelly. In fact, meet the Republican that is going to make you eat dirt, just for making that remark.

The reason Dwain didn't go into lengthy and profound commentary in responding to your mental bowel movement is because when one is responding to a moron, one must speak on their level.

You want to know where the "Gestapo Amerika" came from, LP? The Left. The people of this country are being strangled to death by taxes. Productivity in this country is being strangled by taxes, and the regulations and requirements placed on businesses. We give the government a dollar, and they waste 90 cents of it. Want to know who is responsible for that little octopus? Idiots who think the solution to every problem is to steal money from those who strive to succeed and give it to those who sit on their butts. But do you have sense enough to see that it is far more of a Gestapo tactic to take people's homes away from them if they don't pay their taxes, or put them in jail if they don't, than it is to ask you to take your damned shoes off when you go into an airport?

Give me one single example where one of Bush's "gestapo tactics" has caused you the slightest inconvenience. Now tell me, Mr. Success - how deep did the government dig into *your* pockets last year? If you won't let the little man at the airport look at your shoes, he just won't let you on the plane. Refuse to pay half your income in taxes, and the SS will come to your home and throw you in jail.

Quivering bowl of jelly my ass....

I think you should go ahead and leave now! In fact, what do you say you go ahead and round up a plane load of halfwits like yourself. I'll pay for your plane tickets. One condition though - you have to stay of the country for good. The fewer people like you we have to put up with, the quicker we can fix the mess your socialist party members made.

Quivering bowl of jelly...... HA!
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Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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