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Hi KlavierBauer,

I posted my question to get a sense of the people. What are people thinking these days? How do they view the future?

It is pretty typical to get the conservative response posted by Steve. Any criticism of the US is viewed as unpatriotic. This does not work for me as I voluntarily served this country in the US Navy, and did so proudly.

That said, the current regime in charge of this country is destroying the America I know and love. To me, Bush is a repugnant historical reminder of the precursors and perils of tyranny.

I apologize if it seemed that I was bragging. That is not the case. Steve accused me of being a quitter. That charge cannot go without challenge and I rebutted his assertion. The list of achievements only indicates that I complete what I set out to accomplish, nothing more.

As to employment, no, I am currently unemployed. The aviation industry was devastated by 9/11 and the sluggish economy. Hence, aviation jobs are few and far between.

Great mhr! you'll have time to post at length and often. I am glad you are here. <img border="0" alt="[rock1]" title="" src="graemlins/rockband.gif" />

Steve

Do you hold the Bush Administration to the same fiscal standard? After all, their deficit is going to have to be paid by taxes some day as well.

mhr:
A good friend of mine is a pilot for United. He's somehow managed to hold his job this long, but that hope changes monthly.

I'm sorry you feel so ill of Bush. Part of me thinks he's incredibly misunderstood, while the rest of me sadly doesn't care enough to really learn what's really going on.

He's certainly done some things that I don't agree with, but I think he's genuinely tried to do the right thing. I'm just not sure he always knows what that is.

I would encourage you though, that if you believe in democracy, then stick around and make your voice heard. If you and the majority of others agree, then you will change things (please don't bring up the '00 election)

Make your voice heard, and make this place what you want it to be, that's the American dream.

KlavierBauer

Your qualifications are no more, or less, than many who post here.

Few who last around here can be reduced to "quivering masses of Jello".

As for leaving California, or the U.S., it's a free country.

Unlike many you could be moving to....

I accuse you of being unpatriotic, to get more blunt, because of your spelling of the name of my country. I know of no American who would insult her with the misspell "Amerika" that you used. The "K" key is nowhere near the "C" key, it was not an accident. A real American would not insult his home with a mispelling like that no matter which party is in the White House.

You started this thread threatening to leave because you are unhappy. Leaving is what quitters do. You insulted one of the most eloquent participants on this board by accusing him of being unable to form a sentence just because he choose to not beg you to stay in America, and offered the simple word "Bye". I formed a sentence for you and you responded in a very braggy manner about your as yet unamed accomplishments, threatening to turn right wingers into quivering bowls of jelly. Now you have offered a list or credits that certainly may be true (or not). Do you think you're the only person on this board who has any credits ? Most of us don't mention them.

We got off to a bad start here which I regret, however it frosts me when people say things are just so awful that there going to pack up and leave. I'm not going to convince you to stay., if thats what you're fishing for. There are too many hard working immigrants worldwide that risk death to come here and want your slot. America has immigrants coming from all over the world. If we're so bad why do they come ?

Regards

Steve

Typical Responses Jolly and Steve,

As to your question Steve, I spelled America, "Amerika", specifically to anger you. I have had months of dueling online with the arguments you proffer. Hence, I know what the hot buttons are.

For me, the America I served for in the US Navy and the America we now live in is not the America I grew up to support and defend.

In Bush's Amerika, we are quickly moving toward a theocracy and plutocracy. History shows that societies following this path typically become authoritarian and totalitarian, witness the Patriot Act and the pending Patriot Act II. I personally believe in Democracy, not rule by wealthy elites.

When you are done reviewing that legislation, try reading about PNAC (Progress for a New American Century) and the plans for empire that drive many members of the Bush administration. I seem to remember Bush emphatically stating he did not believe in "nation building." How quickly people forget.

If you choose to live in a society that promotes the divisiveness sponsored by Bush, that is your choice. If I choose otherwise, it is not because I dislike the idea of America it is because I dislike what Amerika is becoming under Bush's rule.

I think that Jefferson said it best:

When people fear the government, tyranny prevails;
When government fears the people, liberty prevails.

PS - KlavierBauer, I for one will not "get over" the 2000 election. If you honestly believe that all was fair in that affair, go read Greg Palast's book The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. He DOCUMENTS how Jeb Bush and Kathleen Harris rigged the Florida Presidential election to insure that George would win.

Hi Steve, Dwain, and Jolly,

Here is yet another testament to how well Commander Bush is running our nation. It is always interesting when the facts are quite different than the reality posited by television.

The cited Army Times editorial is also appended.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/12/opinion/12KRUG.html

August 12, 2003
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Thanks for the M.R.E.'s
By PAUL KRUGMAN

few days ago I talked to a soldier just back from Iraq. He'd been in a relatively calm area; his main complaint was about food. Four months after the fall of Baghdad, his unit was still eating the dreaded M.R.E.'s: meals ready to eat. When Italian troops moved into the area, their food was "way more realistic" — and American troops were soon trading whatever they could for some of that Italian food.

Other stories are far worse. Letters published in Stars and Stripes and e-mail published on the Web site of Col. David Hackworth (a decorated veteran and Pentagon critic) describe shortages of water. One writer reported that in his unit, "each soldier is limited to two 1.5-liter bottles a day," and that inadequate water rations were leading to "heat casualties." An American soldier died of heat stroke on Saturday; are poor supply and living conditions one reason why U.S. troops in Iraq are suffering such a high rate of noncombat deaths?

The U.S. military has always had superb logistics. What happened? The answer is a mix of penny-pinching and privatization — which makes our soldiers' discomfort a symptom of something more general.

Colonel Hackworth blames "dilettantes in the Pentagon" who "thought they could run a war and an occupation on the cheap." But the cheapness isn't restricted to Iraq. In general, the "support our troops" crowd draws the line when that support might actually cost something.

The usually conservative Army Times has run blistering editorials on this subject. Its June 30 blast, titled "Nothing but Lip Service," begins: "In recent months, President Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress have missed no opportunity to heap richly deserved praise on the military. But talk is cheap — and getting cheaper by the day, judging from the nickel-and-dime treatment the troops are getting lately." The article goes on to detail a series of promises broken and benefits cut.

Military corner-cutting is part of a broader picture of penny-wise-pound-foolish government. When it comes to tax cuts or subsidies to powerful interest groups, money is no object. But elsewhere, including homeland security, small-government ideology reigns. The Bush administration has been unwilling to spend enough on any aspect of homeland security, whether it's providing firefighters and police officers with radios or protecting the nation's ports. The decision to pull air marshals off some flights to save on hotel bills — reversed when the public heard about it — was simply a sound-bite-worthy example. (Air marshals have told MSNBC.com that a "witch hunt" is now under way at the Transportation Security Administration, and that those who reveal cost-cutting measures to the media are being threatened with the Patriot Act.)

There's also another element in the Iraq logistical snafu: privatization. The U.S. military has shifted many tasks traditionally performed by soldiers into the hands of such private contractors as Kellogg Brown & Root, the Halliburton subsidiary. The Iraq war and its aftermath gave this privatized system its first major test in combat — and the system failed.

According to the Newhouse News Service, "U.S. troops in Iraq suffered through months of unnecessarily poor living conditions because some civilian contractors hired by the Army for logistics support failed to show up." Not surprisingly, civilian contractors — and their insurance companies — get spooked by war zones. The Financial Times reports that the dismal performance of contractors in Iraq has raised strong concerns about what would happen in a war against a serious opponent, like North Korea.

Military privatization, like military penny-pinching, is part of a pattern. Both for ideological reasons and, one suspects, because of the patronage involved, the people now running the country seem determined to have public services provided by private corporations, no matter what the circumstances. For example, you may recall that in the weeks after 9/11 the Bush administration and its Congressional allies fought tooth and nail to leave airport screening in the hands of private security companies, giving in only in the face of overwhelming public pressure. In Iraq, reports The Baltimore Sun, "the Bush administration continues to use American corporations to perform work that United Nations agencies and nonprofit aid groups can do more cheaply."

In short, the logistical mess in Iraq isn't an isolated case of poor planning and mismanagement: it's telling us what's wrong with our current philosophy of government.

-----------------

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=0-ARMYPAPER-1954515.php

June 30, 2003

Editorial
Nothing but lip service

In recent months, President Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress have missed no opportunity to heap richly deserved praise on the military. But talk is cheap — and getting cheaper by the day, judging from the nickel-and-dime treatment the troops are getting lately.

For example, the White House griped that various pay-and-benefits incentives added to the 2004 defense budget by Congress are wasteful and unnecessary — including a modest proposal to double the $6,000 gratuity paid to families of troops who die on active duty. This comes at a time when Americans continue to die in Iraq at a rate of about one a day.

Similarly, the administration announced that on Oct. 1 it wants to roll back recent modest increases in monthly imminent-danger pay (from $225 to $150) and family-separation allowance (from $250 to $100) for troops getting shot at in combat zones.

Then there’s military tax relief — or the lack thereof. As Bush and Republican leaders in Congress preach the mantra of tax cuts, they can’t seem to find time to make progress on minor tax provisions that would be a boon to military homeowners, reservists who travel long distances for training and parents deployed to combat zones, among others.

Incredibly, one of those tax provisions — easing residency rules for service members to qualify for capital-gains exemptions when selling a home — has been a homeless orphan in the corridors of power for more than five years now.

The chintz even extends to basic pay. While Bush’s proposed 2004 defense budget would continue higher targeted raises for some ranks, he also proposed capping raises for E-1s, E-2s and O-1s at 2 percent, well below the average raise of 4.1 percent.

The Senate version of the defense bill rejects that idea, and would provide minimum 3.7 percent raises for all and higher targeted hikes for some. But the House version of the bill goes along with Bush, making this an issue still to be hashed out in upcoming negotiations.

All of which brings us to the latest indignity — Bush’s $9.2 billion military construction request for 2004, which was set a full $1.5 billion below this year’s budget on the expectation that Congress, as has become tradition in recent years, would add funding as it drafted the construction appropriations bill.

But Bush’s tax cuts have left little elbow room in the 2004 federal budget that is taking shape, and the squeeze is on across the board.

The result: Not only has the House Appropriations military construction panel accepted Bush’s proposed $1.5 billion cut, it voted to reduce construction spending by an additional $41 million next year.

Rep. David Obey, D-Wis., senior Democrat on the House Appropriations Committee, took a stab at restoring $1 billion of the $1.5 billion cut in Bush’s construction budget. He proposed to cover that cost by trimming recent tax cuts for the roughly 200,000 Americans who earn more than $1 million a year. Instead of a tax break of $88,300, they would receive $83,500.

The Republican majority on the construction appropriations panel quickly shot Obey down. And so the outlook for making progress next year in tackling the huge backlog of work that needs to be done on crumbling military housing and other facilities is bleak at best.

Taken piecemeal, all these corner-cutting moves might be viewed as mere flesh wounds. But even flesh wounds are fatal if you suffer enough of them. It adds up to a troubling pattern that eventually will hurt morale — especially if the current breakneck operations tempo also rolls on unchecked and the tense situations in Iraq and Afghanistan do not ease.

Rep. Chet Edwards, D-Texas, who notes that the House passed a resolution in March pledging “unequivocal support” to service members and their families, puts it this way: “American military men and women don’t deserve to be saluted with our words and insulted by our actions.”

Translation: Money talks — and we all know what walks.

MHR:

I'm not saying that election wasn't tainted. I'm just sick of people thinking every election before it wasn't. If you think presidents come to power by popular vote rather than $$, you're mistaken.

But like I said before, I'm not really willing to do anything about politics at a grass-roots level, so I really have no business talking about it.

KlavierBauer

Oooohhhhh!!!!!

Hello, mhr. Meet the Republican you can't reduce to a quivering bowl of jelly. In fact, meet the Republican that is going to make you eat dirt, just for making that remark.

The reason Dwain didn't go into lengthy and profound commentary in responding to your mental bowel movement is because when one is responding to a moron, one must speak on their level.

You want to know where the "Gestapo Amerika" came from, LP? The Left. The people of this country are being strangled to death by taxes. Productivity in this country is being strangled by taxes, and the regulations and requirements placed on businesses. We give the government a dollar, and they waste 90 cents of it. Want to know who is responsible for that little octopus? Idiots who think the solution to every problem is to steal money from those who strive to succeed and give it to those who sit on their butts. But do you have sense enough to see that it is far more of a Gestapo tactic to take people's homes away from them if they don't pay their taxes, or put them in jail if they don't, than it is to ask you to take your damned shoes off when you go into an airport?

Give me one single example where one of Bush's "gestapo tactics" has caused you the slightest inconvenience. Now tell me, Mr. Success - how deep did the government dig into *your* pockets last year? If you won't let the little man at the airport look at your shoes, he just won't let you on the plane. Refuse to pay half your income in taxes, and the SS will come to your home and throw you in jail.

Quivering bowl of jelly my ass....

I think you should go ahead and leave now! In fact, what do you say you go ahead and round up a plane load of halfwits like yourself. I'll pay for your plane tickets. One condition though - you have to stay of the country for good. The fewer people like you we have to put up with, the quicker we can fix the mess your socialist party members made.

Quivering bowl of jelly...... HA!

Its not entirely the wee Shrub's fault so go easy on him- he's not all that intelligent to be as devious as you imply.

As for Canada you can forget it. We live under the same Dictatorship of Bean Counters as does the US. Same load of gangsters except they spin at a slightly different angle. I give this place ten to fifteen years at the most before Manifest Destiny absorbs it.

mhr says "Despite my misgivings and the non-stop conservative media bias..."


<img border="0" alt="[Laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/bigsmile.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/bigsmile.gif" />

I just love you brain dead left wing nuts. "Nonstop conservative media bias".....


<img border="0" alt="[Laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/bigsmile.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laugh]" title="" src="graemlins/bigsmile.gif" />


That one ought to get about 5 people nationwide who agree with you....

By the way, in case no one has figured it out, mhr is just LP another sock puppet. Same person.

I'm glad you know how to wire a house, balance a checkbook, and can fly a plane. Other than that, your "credentials" aren't all that hot. Any number of people here equal you in that regard, myself included. The question is, can you use your brain. So far, you're failing that little test.

This MHR person really sounds like LindsayGirl/HRG to me. Always confrontational and always willing to spew forth his/her list of credentials. Anyone who starts out telling us how important he/she is should really be disregarded as a troll, IMO.
BTW mhr, use that pilot's license and get the heck out of the country.

mhr

"As to employment, no, I am currently unemployed. The aviation industry was devastated by 9/11 and the sluggish economy."

Have you no other talents boy? With your credentials you should not be out of work. Do you think it might be your attitude.

Indonesia would be a good choice for you, it has a high population of Muslims that hold the same views as you do, and you could continue your search for the utopia of piano materials and construction there.

lb

Quite frankly folks, I don't give a damn who mhr is. If you can't refute the argument with facts instead of calling the poster a sockpuppet, then you might as well concede the argument right here and now.

For anyone who is interested in knowing, there is no way I would ever leave my country. Even at it's worse, it's the best country in the world.

On the other hand, perhaps like mhr (don't know that this is the case) there are many many Americans right now who are being forced to leave this country to find work. Ask anyone who has spent their life in the textiles industry. Those jobs on American shores are almost non-existent, as are many other jobs in manufacturing.

I did not vote for Bush primarily because of his economic policy, such as I could understand it, at the time. I was right. It has been and will continue to be disastrous for this country for years to come if something isn't done to stop it. The US government can't continue to flourish with the largest deficit that we have ever seen, even larger in percentage than California.

Where are all those right-wing conservative Republicans who just a few years ago were yelling for a balanced budget? Clinton gave us one! Why can't Bush even come close?

Bcary

Excuse me, but there is no argument. We have an a**hole that is on public assistance and they are bitching about my country and my government while living off of my taxes. I and any other taxpayer can call them anything we want.

I think mhr's problem is their credentials are so high that they can't lower themself to support themself. There is work in this country if you want it. This unemployment scam is bull.

mhr should shut up and get out if they do not like it here, and any resident of another country that resides here and is siding with mhr can get on the same plane.

I know a liberal, left wing, journalist, with the same opinion as mhr they can take along and she can write their resumes for them when they get where they are going.

lb

We'll have this conversation again in a year or so.

Thank you for your frank admission that you believe government should flourish.


With the economic downturn and the war on terror a budget deficit should come as no surprise. The only thing that will wipe it out is the same thing that wiped out the last one. That is economic growth. Tax cuts are the best way for government to stimulate ecomnomic growth.

Clinton never even tried to balance the budget. His budget projection given in his second year called for 200 billion dollar deficits on into perpetuity. When the newly elected Republican Congress called for balancing the budget he sent his minions (Leon Panetta, Alice Rivlin, et al) out in force to convince the American people that balancing the budget was not only not necessary but inadvisable. So it was not Bill Clinton that gave us or even wanted a balanced budget.

As far as the current budget situation is concerned, I would have to agree with you on one aspect. Congressional Republicans do not seem to be too all fired up about spending restraint and Bush is going right along with them. However, tax increases (or repealing existing tax cuts) will only exacerbate the deficit problem by further reducing economic growth and, consequently, revenues.

Dr. Moonlight, thou may be right.

I didn't find my first post in this thread to be particularly offensive, or in-your-face in any way. I just pointed out the fact that the board runs the gamut of people, and qualifications, and knowledge base can be matched by any number of people here.

Nope, this person came looking for a fight, with bait in hand.

Oh well, nothing like the smell of napalm in the morning... :t:

I seem to remember when LP first parachuted in here, he/she was quite combative and spoiling for a fight (I can go back through the archives and post links if anyone doubts this). I wonder how long it will be before this person retreats behind a mask of civility and the accusations begin to arise against "right-wingers" that they drive "reasonable", "thoughtful" people out of here with their combative ways.

I am just so glad he (maybe she) has started posting. We need a foil.

Foil - "Anything that serves by contrast of color or quality to set off another thing". That meaning was originally used to describe the shiny jewel settings that held the jewel. A preacher needs something like sin to talk about to project piety.