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i can't speak for anyone else, justme. i would not think you were an anti-semite for questioning supporting israel. lots of jews question support for the current administration in israel. but even if they didn't, i would not consider your disagreement with support for israel a form of antisemitism. possibly anti-zionism, but not even necessarily that.

for me, prejudice, racism, or whatever you want to call it, is in evidence when someone makes it clear that they think of the group in question as "other." when they seek to diminish the humanity, rights of and respect for others simply because they are different or have a different background. when it is clear from their manner of speaking or writing that gays, jews, blacks, rednecks, or what have you, are seen by them as a foreign and even mystifying group, simply because they are different from them.

Here is my concern regarding the whole anti-Semite thing, my apologies for not being as eloquent as many on this board.

Within OUR living memory, millions of Jews were rounded up and exterminated, while millions of others looked the other way. Despite some wackos who want to believe otherwise, this is a fact. Moreoever, it is not a fact based in textbooks, but rather something that you can discuss with survivors if you go to almost any Jewish elder care center in the United States.

The causes are complex and impossible to understand completely, and I believe they will remain so. How can one possibly explain away this occurrence?

So what do we do with this terrible knowledge and awareness? I think we are faced with a few options. The first several are, for me, untenable; they include: ignoring it; somehow believing that Jews are "getting what they deserved"; or saying it was an aberration that can only happen occasionally. (This last, obviously has already been shown false.)

The other option is vigilance and speaking out. We know genocide occurs. We need to look out for it, we need to recognize and call hate out into the open when we see it, as these beliefs thrive on ignorance and secrecy.

If, on occasion, the vigilance is interpreted as shrill, or sometimes flat-out wrong, we need to apologize and forgive. Apologize not for the vigilance, but for the mistake.

There are many things I will never "get." I don't "get" what it means to be from the South. I don't get what it means to be a white male, or an African American, or a lesbian, or any of a million other things. I also believe that if entire segments of your family haven't been systematically hunted down, imprisoned and murdered, you may not "get" why Jews may be a bit sensitive about these things.

Sometimes accusations are wrongly made. In my personal moral calculus, that's a small price to be paid when sending the message that anti-Semitism (or any other blanket "hate" message) will not be tolerated.

Nina

thank you, nina!

I knew it, just more blaming tossing, instead of discussing issues. And what's particularly dismaying (to me) is that the more it goes on, the less likely anybody is to go back to the lengthy post where I discuss the issue of scapegoating, Jews, history and the risks for such now (also Buchanan).

I don't think many members really read threads, but just tack their comments on to the last one. For those of us with dial-up (still) it can be understood, but surely with cable connections, people can scroll a bit further back to see where issues begin!

Ariel

justme, if you plug in at this point, please scroll back to just after your original concerned post, where I reply to you soon afterwards.

Small indeed when you are not paying the price. If it is necessary to slander others in order to "send a message" one has to wonder whether the message suffers as well.

Thank you, Ariel, for your response. You know how over-sensitive I get, therefore, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same planet. My views on Israel have softened some (not all the way but some) because of your informative posts. Keep them coming.

Pique, thank you for your response, too. Having experience bigotry and racial hate in the past, I try very hard not to hold racial prejudices.

I am prejudice against one group. And that's trash. Whether it's white trash, black trash, Hispanic trash, Jewish trash, Christian trash, Pagan trash, Celtic trash, German trash etc... I can't stand trash. And as I age, I seem to be less and less tolerant of it.

Do either of you feel any prejudices?
justcurious,

After months of observation (quite intensive at one point) it is my considered opinion that at least half of the strong disagreements on this FOrum are because of incomplete reading of a Thread and/or miscontrual of a given poster because of having read his/her post excessively rapidly.

For example, pique, I have the impression that when you responded to my concern about anti-Semitism (in the Buchanan article) by remarking on anti-Semitism in the Forum,...you were not fully aware that the person most intimately associated with it in this context, was mhr who posted the article. You, Benedict and I defended mhr in various ways. I apologize if this is not true - it was a very long article and I don't think anyone read it except for me and John Andrew.

Larry was, I guess, thrilled to see a "Liberal" (whom he had attacked) being - possibly - criticised by another "Liberal" (me). So he responded with great indignation to seeing a third "Liberal" (in his book) - you - deflecting the discussion from the sins of the first "Liberal" and onto the Forum at large. Then he went into a tirade about Liberals mindlessly siding with each other (something I must confess, I have often felt was happening at the other end of the political spectrum). Indignation reigned all around, as JBryan, rvaga and fmelliot responded - not to mention justme, who felt indicted by my post (which may not have been optimally worded).

Sometimes I really don't think the Internet is a medium suited for delicate discussions of any kind. When people are defensive about something, misunderstandings are almost certain to occur - almost as the rule rather than the exception. This is not only because of sensitivity of individuals and groups, the absence of non-verbal cues, but as much as anything because of the haste with which people read and post! Especially when their emotions are enflamed.

Ariel

But at least on the Internet people cannot throw punches or rotten eggs!

I couldn't agree with you more, jbryan. I wish I knew a way to be 100% accurate. I don't have that capability and until then will continue to hack my way through the underbrush along with the rest of us.

I've also been falsely accused of things, and it hurts and offends deeply. I don't mean to imply that it is a "small price" and therefore should be dismissed as irrelevant or immaterial. That's what I meant by the forgiveness part. Mistakes happen, we need to apologize and forgive when they do.

In very general terms, I think people can respond to problems by trying to fix things, or by trying to find someone to blame. I view Buchanan's entire approach as trying to find someone to blame, and stirring up some of the worst in people while doing so.

Nina

Bingo! That's why I really try to limit my participation in the "political" threads, and do so against my better judgment. Someday I'll learn to take a walk instead of pound on the keyboard...

Nina

My direct ancestors were hunted, imprisoned, murdered, their land and possessions were confiscated, and our name was outlawed. They escaped to Ireland and then the U.S. where they faced unfair discrimination, persecution, and violence but I've been told that wasn't enough for us to "get it". So I've tried to live by those truths that are self-evident as in the Declaration of Independence.

Blanket hate messages should not be tolerated whether it's a skinhead or Al Sharpton. Calling someone a racist because you don't agree with what he says is no different than calling other socially unacceptable names, IMO.

No one responded to the Buchanan comments because no one agrees with him and we've said that. His support has shrunk and will continue to do so as more discover his wacko position. "Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult; whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse." Prov 9:7

Ariel,

For the record, I believe you meant Jolly instead of JBryan here. Also for the record, in case I have not made it abundantly clear, the views of Pat Buchannan and myself are not, shall we say, congruent. He also does not find much of a following among what I know as "Conservatives". However, it seems to delight some people no end to keep calling him a Conservative rather than what he is. A reactionary, isolationist, bigot.

If anyone took offense at my previous post, please forgive me. I had just found out that one of my best friends had a glioblastoma removed and that the median life expectancy is less than 1 year.

Logging out for more important things.

Now I'll try to delve into the Israeli/American support issue, and deliver a warning at the same time.

There has been conjecture earlier in this thread that an entire race may be at risk. The small nation of Israel, a country that you can see across in some places from a high enough elevation, is probably at more risk today, than at anytime since 1947.

Many of the Left side of the aisle would have us believe that most support for Israel emanates from that side of the aisle. I would think the general tone of foreign policy speeches from that side of the political spectrum, should have American pro-Israeli factions reexamining the support they are receiving.

When push comes to shove, when bullets start flying, when the call comes to put American boots on Israeli soil, and shed American blood to protect the sovereignty of Israel as a nation, I'd like for many of you to notice who in this nation will support that action.

The truth of who Israel's friends may turn out to be, may be the very same body politik so many of you find so anathemic.

Do not dis-couple yourself from those who will die to defend you, while praising those who would let your bones bleach in the sun.

There comes a time in everyone's life when they have get their priorities in order. May there be mericles for your friend.

speaking just for myself--absolutely! although as the brother of a friend of mine used to say: "i don't believe in prejudice, but there ought to be something called 'postjudice.'"

it's easier for me to not prejudge people when i don't feel threatened or unsafe. there has been a lot of hate literature distributed in my neighborhood, and the local jewish community felt so threatened by bomb threats and other threats of violence that they got an unlisted number. if you want to attend jewish services or lectures, you have to know who to ask about where to call.

i live in white supremacist country now.

that makes me fear and prejudge a certain class of people here who tend to express a lot of racial hatred: white rednecks. i probably would not announce in a group of white rednecks that i am jewish. i don't think it would be unreasonable to fear some dire consequences for doing so.

when i lived in new york city, was it prejudice for me to cross the street when i saw a gang of young black kids walking towards me? sure it was! was it also smart? i think for the time and the place (heck's kitchen in the 1980s) it was the only sensible thing to do.

does that mean that i prejudge all black young people? not at all. one-on-one i'm going to view and treat them as equal fellow humans. but in a larger social context, when it is meaningful, i am going to be afraid for my safety.

nobody is afraid of black people where i live now, so it is rare to encounter prejudice against black people. instead, they hate indians. the only explanation i can come up with for this is that indians have a sovereign nation here that competes with and controls white property rights. since i personally have nothing to fear from indians, i feel no prejudices against them.

there are times when fear is reasonable. we live in a complex society where there is a lot of anger and hatred, and we can become victims of it. i think it is important to not let reasonable fear of a particular situation become broad generalized hatred for an entire class of people. that is something i have never done, and don't believe i ever will do.

this is a good example of the kind of delicate conversation that perhaps an internet forum is just too crude a medium for discussion.

i apologize, but i really can't reply in depth to the many other comments that have been made since my earlier post. we are having a stage two air alert here from the wildfires, and the smoke and noxious poisons in the air combined with my general anesthesia hangover from surgery is making it very difficult for me to write and think.

you certainly seem to be doing just fine. Good luck again.

Jolly,

You might be surprised. That support might come from Republicans, Democrats, Independents, liberals, conservatives, and loonies.

Just because any of us question how our government supports Israel, or does not support Israel, or what we think of Israel's own policies, does not mean that when push comes to shove, most of us would not be there supporting what is our, their, and the world's best interest.

I'd prefer to be surprised.

My political nose tells me I won't be. I think many of the same arguments, from many of the same factions that oppose the war so vigorously in Iraq, will be even more inclined to cut Israel's best lifeline.

On the other hand, I think many Southern conservatives, even more-so the dreaded Southern conservative Christian fundamentalists, will be the most staunch supporters Israel will have.

Strange bedfellows, if one considers the prototypical Northeastern Jew, and the stereotypical Southern conservative.

bcarey and Jolly,

It's nice to think that Israel has supporters all over, at least in the US, but I am afraid as the cost becomes higher - of involvement with the Middle East in general - support may wane multilaterally.

Jolly, I assume you don't mean me when you speak of understanding that Southern fundamentalists support Israel as I am well aware of it. And who could miss that the extreme Left is pro-Palestinian almost to a man/woman?

I am afraid that the age of conventional warfare is drawing to a close. I picture something happening too rapidly for anyone to counteract. Altough I suppose one great protection Israel has is the geographical connections. It's hard to picture anyone poisoning waters that flow into their own lands, or spreading a plague that might extend to their own people, or even destroying cropland they themselves want to reclaim...Not to mention, being careful of Holy sites both sides revere.

Of course, there is the possibility ot that jealous lover syndrome - if I can't have you, no one will.

Ariel

pique,

I am embarrassed at having to be reminded of your surgery by your mentioning it again. I had meant to say something.

I gather you were not expecting to have your knee operated on. I hope it wasn't due to a sudden injury. I know how much you love gardening and the outdoors, so it must be a dismal prospect not to be able to do it - or walk your dogs - for what will probably be a pretty long haul. At least to judge by my knee surgery (my doctor seemed to take special delight in continually reminding me that "healing is slower when you're over forty").

How IS it going? And - if you care to discuss it - what was the trouble, and what did you have done? Still on pain-killers?

Well, at least you can play the piano! Sorry about the surgery and the wildfires too. Sounds pretty hairy there right now.

Ariel

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DT:

Sorry about your friend too. It's hard to know what to say or do, sometimes. I hope your friend is near enough for you to visit at least - it can be impossible by phone.

Ariel