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#876318 - 05/16/03 04:32 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Anonymous
Unregistered


First of all, thank you all for your kind and thoughtful replies.

Ariel:
Thank you so much for your reply. I really appreciate your trying to help me with my problems, and I really thank you for that. Nothing bad has happened it my family or so, it's just that I have these strange painful thoughts sometimes about people and animals and things in general. This problem bothers me the most since it relates to actual living creatures, but yes, there are some more. Perhaps we can talk more by email, would you care to do so? Or here is fine, but as I said I really think it is very kind to care about me and my problems!!!! Thank you so much!

Larry:
I am serious, this thread is not a joke. Please, this is a problem that really troubles me and perhaps you may want to choose a better thread to make jokes in... but thank you for your feedback anyway, and I am realizing now that my fear (although most phobias are) is preposterous (sp?) and that it is nothing to worry about.

Thank you everyone for helping me with this, I think that with your replies I will be able to eat meat without feeling guilty again.

Anyway, thank you so much!

Regards,
BeePhlat

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#876319 - 05/16/03 04:35 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
I was thinking if I were chicken, fed for four weeks, probably in a stupor, because non of my fight and flight capabilities had been developed, the thought of my eminent demise would probably be less alarming than if I were a free range bird or animal capable of fleeing my hunter, terrified of what might happen if I were caught.

Animal lovers unite!
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Ă•un (apple in Estonian)

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#876320 - 05/16/03 04:52 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by CV: Probably not in the modern world,[/b]
But meanwhile, back in the 4th century B.C.---

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#876321 - 05/16/03 05:41 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by BeePhlatMinor:

Larry:
I am serious, this thread is not a joke. Please, this is a problem that really troubles me and perhaps you may want to choose a better thread to make jokes in... but thank you for your feedback anyway, and I am realizing now that my fear (although most phobias are) is preposterous (sp?) and that it is nothing to worry about.
[/b]
Ok.... no joking around.

You have a very weird phobia.

Animals can't feel you eating them.

Animals don't have souls, so they don't go to heaven.

They're dead.

Get professional assistance to help you find out what the real problem is in your life.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#876322 - 05/16/03 05:49 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Brendan Offline


Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5283
Loc: McAllen, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Animals don't have souls, so they don't go to heaven.
[/b]
Since I'm doing the Brahms "Four Serious Songs" on a recital Monday night, it's time to troll.

An excerpt from the text, taken from Ecclesiastes:

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts, as the one dieth, so dieth the other;
yea, they have all one breath;
so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast:
for all is vanity.[/b]

All the same, right?
_________________________
http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

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#876323 - 05/16/03 06:09 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4110
What is the point of being a vegetarian if one's medical condition does not warrant it? I seriously doubt a few people who choose to eat plants will be able to make a difference against the majority of people who do not choose as such.

I can understand using electricty in place of oil/fuel in cars, since oil is a limited resource. Most animals, barring those who are extinct, are availble to enjoy in ample supply, since they, like people, are virtually unlimited due to continuos reproduction. It may make some ethical sense, and I am not trying to critize anyone's choice of food consumption, but I fail to see how it is practical. What is the goal?

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#876324 - 05/16/03 06:23 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
No preaching because I suspect you know better. \:D You can't just read those verses isolated from the passage. But in Ecclesiastes you really need the entire book because of what it is and the "journey" you go through seeing things laid out. The author is a witness to the lust for money, sex, power, knowledge. He makes statements, "human" conclusions, and then calls a halt to our futile attempts. It is written with a sharp and biting wit that exposes and is a rejection of every arrogant expectation we have about living our lives on our own terms.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#876325 - 05/16/03 06:51 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Mr. Gould Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/01
Posts: 1111
 Quote:
Animals don't have souls, so they don't go to heaven[/b]


Larry I can't believe you said something like that. Well it looks like our God will BANISH YOU TO HELL!!! ;\)

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#876326 - 05/17/03 06:10 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
A SPECIAL LETTER[/b]
Dear BeePhlatMinor

(Wonder if you chose that musical key for a reason)

I'm so glad you wrote back, and thank you for thanking me too! It made me feel really good.

I would be glad to talk to you about stuff, but would you consider talking right on this Forum - or in a chat room, if you know of one, if this seems too "open" (open to ridicule for one, Larry[/b])?

I would also prefer to keep some of the others involved too, because of the problem of availability and also because I have a bunch of pretty heavy responsibilities around here right now, some involving my own kids. I was actually about to make myself take a vacation from the Forum, to do the other stuff (well, actually the Forum [/b]is the vacation, but you know what I mean!).

And as you can see, I'm not even on the same schedule as you!

Besides, I feel very strongly that you should be talking to somebody where you are. I'm afraid if you talk/write to me, it might replace that, and if you got into a real bad mood one day and I wasn't on-line (or Benedict or Ob1Knabe or one of the others with a more "parental" feel for things), well - what would you do?

We don't even know where you are, your real name or anything!

Also, the school year is about to end (I am guessing you are in High School, maybe 15 or so. You might even have said so when you signed on, don't remember).

I'm afraid if you talk to me instead[/b] of maybe making an appointment with your school counselor - well, it might be a lot harder for you during the summer. You might be embarrassed to ask your parents to take you to a counselor, answer their questions and all. (Or do you have a favorite teacher you might ask to talk to after school or during a study hall??)

I don't want you to lose that chance.

Is[/b] there any such person there you can think of? I don't mean somebody who is guaranteed to know exactly how to help you feel comfortable talking about all your private fears...but at least a trustworthy adult who cares and will help you find someone else with more experience in dealing with this kind of problem, if necessary.

That doesn't mean the minute you log off today, that you have to go and call somebody! However, it does[/b] means I want to know you are at least thinking about who you might involve besides me and other "friendly" adults on this Forum.

Otherwise, I don't think it would be responsible of me to stay involved with you here.

BUT PLEASE DON'T GO AWAY[/b].

Now about the problems you told us a little about, here's the picture I'm getting. You have this very disturbing fear that you are hurting slaughtered animals, by eating them as food. You wonder if they can still feel pain, after their bodies have been made into cooked food.

You also said that you do have other things you worry about, and that's not surprising. That's is generally how it goes.

I made a mistake, by the way, when I said you had a "phobia" (although, you do, kind of). When I thought about it later, it sounded to me more like you might have something called "OCD" or "Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder". I'll describe it and you see if you think it fits.

A person with this problem (at least the "classic" picture - everybody's different), actually tends to have two problems which often go together:

1) Uncontrollable worry or fears that the person can't get rid of, no matter how much they try, or how "silly" that person rationally thinks[/b] they are (I'm sure you know there is a BIG difference between thinking and feeling!)

Examples: Some people worry all the time that their house will burn down, or that their children are going to be in an accident, or that they have a terrible disease (or some combination of a bunch of things!). Who knows, they might even get worried about whether dead animals feel being eaten by them...

That's the " obsession[/b] " part of the problem. Having your mind go back all the time, to something you don't want to think about - in this case, a worry or fear.

2) The other part - is that the person (often but not always) has a tendency to feel like they have to do something over and over so that the thing they worry about doesn't happen. Or just because it makes them feel bad and unsafe if they don't do whatever it is.

For instance, people with OCD might feel like they need to wash their hands all the time so they don't get sick from germs on doorknobs. Or maybe they call home throughout the day to make sure their children are OK evn though there is a sitter with them. Or, instead of this kind of problem, they might have "rules" for themselves that they feel they have to follow or else! Like, they have to keep everything perfectly clean[/b] , or lay their clothes out just so, or count things.

It feels awful to them, like something really bad will happen, if they don't follow these "rules".
It's really like a superstition - except it can get so it really interferes with a person's life! For instance, a person who washes his hands all the time can get to where his hands are raw and bleeding!

This, of course, is the "compulsion"[/b] part. Feeling "compelled", forced to do something over and over, when you would really rather not.

So maybe you can think about whether this sounds at all like you!?!

If a person has OCD, well, first of all, I want you to know it is pretty common (though you'd never know it - and some people have pretty mild cases). You would probably find dozens of chat-rooms or forums about it on-line, in fact, if you checked Yahoo or Google. Maybe even hundreds!

But again, that's not a safe way to deal with it -at least, not without doing other real live things. Especially for a kid (you should pardon the expression, but I do think like a mom).

Now as to what causes it - there are bunches and bunches of ideas, as well as all kinds of sub-categories and so on (I even have a book that is over a thousand pages long, just about this).

It is funny that there are basically two very different ways to approach it, and both work. They also seem to go together very well for most people:

The first method is working on understanding some of the feelings that may have led to it - for example, feeling guilty about things, like you are responsible for a lot of the bad things in the world. (Even the nicest person you could ever hope to meet, might have these feelings about himself. I hate to say it, but it might even be one of the reasons they act nice!).

Sometimes, tough, the person and doctor never really come up with an answer to this part of treatment. It just seems to be a pure chemical imbalance> Even little children can be very affected by OCD (and cured my medications).

The other tool in dealing with it is medicine. It seems that people with OCD very often have a chemical imbalance which seems to "tip them into it" (and this, by the way, is true of other emotional problems too).

And the medicine really helps. In fact, there are a lot of medicines out there which can help people feel better - people with all kinds of things bugging them.

For a long time therapists only[/b] used the talking and figuring-things-out method. And then there was a shift to mostly giving out medicines to people, with almost no talking.

Like many changes, this was probably the result of the cost involved. It's a lot cheaper to just give a person medicine, even expensive medicine, than have a doctor spend a lot of time talking to you.

That's because the doctors who are allowed to give it out, have a lot of expensive training and usually charge a good bit (though there are free clinics, in most places where you can at least get the prescription even if you have to pay for it at the pharmacy).

Things shifted again, where the recommendation now for most emotional or mental problems is a combination of the two - talking and[/b] medicine.

Generally (if possible), a patient with a special problem like OCD, will talk to a psychologist or social worker but get their prescriptions from psychiatrists (psychiatrists are the doctors who prescribe medicines for mental or emotional problems, you probably knew that). That's because psychiatrists are still very expensive, usually a good bit nmore than psychologists. Ideally the two doctors work together to help the patient.

If it turns out you have some medicine recommended to you, well, I hope you will think about this issue carefully, before you turn it down! Even if a doctor has to try out a few different things to see what works best for you!Modern medications (I am referring here to the medicines that help with brain chemicals) are really miracles for many people. They save lives.

Now maybe you don't have OCD. I was really just using it as an example of the kinds of worries a person can have, because even it's not the same as you, you can see that a lot of people have problems. Naturally, they don't go around talking about them in the school cafeteria! I'll bet nobody looking at you could tell you have these problems either, because you've gotten very good at hiding them...So, that's one[/b] of the things I meant before, when I said "you're not alone".

Check out what Benedict said about his youngest daughter who was really scared of whales for the longest time - and there aren't (as Benedict says) many whales in Paris! It's not even close to the sea. I guess a lot of people would think that was pretty funny.

But it wasn't very funny to her - or to her mother and father.

Just some food for thought (no pun intended)

This is very[/b] long (good! Maybe lots of people will just get bored by it and that will make it more private!) - and I can't write such long "letters" very often. Not for a couple of months anyhow, or I'll be in deep doo-doo.

But I thought some information might help you take at look at yourself in your mental "mirror" and see yourself a little more clearly.

Please note - this is NOT how "therapy" or counseling is usually handled. At least not the way I am used to. Generally, today a therapist does a whole lot of listening - after trying to establish a kind of atmostphere where you feel like you can tell him or her very[/b] private things (and if you don't level with them, well, you're just wasting your time).

And they NEVER laugh at you, or say "that's really weird![/b] You are soooo sick in the head - get out of my office, you perv!" or something like that.

For one thing they've heard all kinds of things from other people before. And for another they know you are really feeling bad inside, and there's nothing funny about that. Even if Larry's Aunt went to see a therapist, they wouldn't laugh at her, because they would know she was really afraid of all the things Larry described so amusingly!

So, whaddaya think? What's possible for you in your situation (money, relationship with parents, other adults in your life, etc.)?

Growing up is hard for everybody, especially in some ways, now[/b] with all the special dangers in the world we hear about.

Somebody like Jolly will probably think of all the hard work he had to do when he was a kid (and he certainly did work hard - much harder than most kids around now). And somebody like lb seems to feel that any kid who worries about what he eats, just isn't hungry enough! And Larry, well, Larry is in some ways a big kid himself, if you ask me - even though he's a very successful retired business man (who has forgotten more about pianos than most of us will ever know).

In those ways maybe you do[/b] have it easier than in the "bad old days". But with worries - well, they don't call this the "Age of Anxiety" for nothing! \:\(

Stay in touch. I do[/b] care! \:\)

Ariel

P.S. But remember about finding the kind of person I said to talk to there, where you are. Not necessarily a therapist, to start with - just some other adult you can fill in about these problems.

???
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876327 - 05/17/03 10:02 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Ariel wrote: "Somebody like Jolly will probably think of all the hard work he had to do when he was a kid (and he certainly did work hard - much harder than most kids around now). And somebody like lb seems to feel that any kid who worries about what he eats, just isn't hungry enough! And Larry, well, Larry is in some ways a big kid himself, if you ask me"[/b]

Yes, in a lot of ways I am still a big kid. I believe that when you lose the kid in you, you dry up. But my response to the original poster would be the same even if he were to walk up to me in person.

When my son was 2 or 3, he thought that his bowel movements were alive. He didn't want to flush the toilet, because he was scared they would drown. We thought "how cute", then I explained to him they really *wanted* to go and be with all the other ones, and if he didn't flush them they couldn't. Problem solved - every time he went potty, he couldn't wait to send them on their way to visit all the other ones!

Within a few months he outgrew that. Had he come to me at the age of 18 and told me that, I'd have told him he had exactly 5 seconds to straighten out his act, or I'd flush *him*.

You are a kind, caring soul. So am I. We just have different ideas about how to help someone. You want to have them talk it out, to enable them. I on the other hand, think that anyone who thinks that a steak is still alive needs to be forced to face reality. My first wife was a child psychologist. I learned about the harm of enabling from her. I think coddling them and enabling them only feeds their illness, and allows them to get worse. You see, his problem isn't really that he thinks a steak is alive. He knows better than that. He is using it to avoid facing something else - he may *not* know that. But as long as he gets to wallow in his "problem", he can continue to refuse to face what is really wrong.

In my opinion, the last thing he needs is to have people fawn over him because of his "affliction", and give him a lot of attention because of it, and allow him to use it as a means of getting attention. All the "I'm here for you, I care, bring your problems to me and we'll talk through them for months on end" stuff is in my opinion the very reason there are so many people out there who are screwed up. His "problem" required no more than a couple of sentences - "That's stupid, and you know it. Now get your act together and act like you've got good sense, or go get help." Everthing passed that is feeding his disease.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#876328 - 05/17/03 11:16 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
jazzyd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 1861
Loc: United Kingdom
That was a great post Larry; everything you said makes sense to me.

Even though I don't see it as such, I get the feeling my upbringing would have been nightmarish or barbaric by current standards. Between the ages of 5 and 10 or so I was smacked/beaten/yelled at on a fairly regular basis when I misbehaved or disboeyed. Had I developed OCD, ADD or something similar, I am pretty sure my father would have knocked it out of me in an afternoon.

David
_________________________
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

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#876329 - 05/17/03 11:26 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Larry, I am actually surprised that your child(ren?) grew up past 18. I am also a bit put down by your response, since my fear really isn't all that funny or childish or stupid or idiotic or silly or weird (well, maybe) or dumb or crazy or just completely whacko. In fact, it's something that really bothers be and I'm not really seeking attention at all; I started this thread because I was worried about animals, and didn't want to hurt them. You may call my fear silly and childish but if your son thought that his bowel movements would drown then I guess you should have more compassion for my fear. Well, I don't know what to say. I guess I'd prefer if your didn't post in this thread, or at least think about the expression "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." I obviously respect your opinions and see what you have to say but I am so glad Ariel is reaching out to me and really, I find that so kind.

Ariel,
Thank you so much for your reply! I truly appreciate, I really do, your replies. As for the disease you talked about, I don't think I have it. I just have this fear that I indirectly hurt other creatures and thought that here might be a good place to say it, because people may also have similar thoughts, like Jgoo for example. I never really thought that as you said there may be something deeper, and as Larry said it might only be something I developed to hide some greater problem in me, but I've done a lot of thinking and can't think of anything!! After all, I love my family SO much and they are as kind as a family can be. It's hard talking about things like this with somoeone you know so well, so I thank you for reaching out to me.

I will post another response later today when I have more time to think, because soon I have to sign off. But Ariel, once again, thank you for caring (and thank you ALL for caring) and for writing such a long response! Life is so complicated sometimes! AAAARGH!

My warmest regards to all here,
BeePhlat

P.S. as for more about ME, I just turned 16 a week ago, and I live in the United States. Yes I'm in High School, in 10th grade. If there's anything more I can tell you, please don't hesitate to ask!!

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#876330 - 05/17/03 12:46 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Gardener Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/26/02
Posts: 290
Loc: New Jersey
Ariel-
You are a very thoughtful and thought-provoking poster.

However, your are treading on dangerous territory in this thread. The propensity is much greater for harm then would be your intention. I don't mean harm to you but to Bflat and perhaps even lurkers. IMO you shouldn't even continue along this path you have started here.
_________________________
Gardener--
Two roads diverged in the woods and I ... I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.(R. Frost)

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#876331 - 05/17/03 01:09 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
Great post Larry.

The greatest challenge of parenting is instilling common sense into your kids. Rational thinking is not something innate in humans--it has to be learned. Encouraging irrational thought in children leads to unhappy and unproductive lives as kids grow older.

A good kick in the pants could solve 99% of the ADDS problems (and put 99% of the child psychiatrists out of business.)

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#876332 - 05/17/03 04:03 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Anonymous
Unregistered


Dear Gardener and others,
I don't understand why you are not taking me seriously! I have this problem concerning animals and I only wanted some advice on how to not worry so much about them.

Gees everybody, don't get so upset. All I posted this thread was because I ws looking to see whether other people shared the same fear or perhaps help me in trying to overcome it, which Ariel is really helpful in doing.

Really, I meant no harm but to ask about animals and I don't want to harm anyone- that's all.

I did not mean to offend anyone and if you are offended then I apologize- but I meant no harm!

Thank you Ariel, once again!

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#876333 - 05/17/03 05:22 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
BPM,

Nobody is "ticked" at you. In fact, the response of this thread is generally positive - people want to see you overcome your fear, they just have different ways of trying to accomplish it.

As for growing up in a difficult time - horsefeathers! There is no such thing as a wonderful time because every era has its' own unique worries and fears.

The key to living a decent life is to worry about the things you can change, and not let things you cannot change overwhelm you. Couple that with a good belief system , and you've about got the problem whipped.

Simple to write, hard to execute. But it can be done.

And look at the bright side about your worries about steak - at your age, I helped kill my own.

The grocery store is much more convenient! \:D
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#876334 - 05/17/03 06:10 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by BeePhlatMinor:

You may call my fear silly and childish but if your son thought that his bowel movements would drown then I guess you should have more compassion for my fear. [/b]
My son was 3 years old. You're 16. Get your head out of your ass and use it. *That* is compassion.

I guess I'd prefer if your didn't post in this thread, or at least think about the expression "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." [/b]

Did you ask the question because you wanted an answer, or did you ask the question because you wanted everyone to sit around saying "nice things" to you? I don't care whether you want me to post in this thread or not - it's a public forum. You asked for advice, and I gave it to you. You want to ignore the advice, and bask in all the touchy feely stuff. In other words, you're a user looking for attention. Get over it. Just view me as yet another one of those "complications in life".

I just have this fear that I indirectly hurt other creatures and thought that here might be a good place to say it, because people may also have similar thoughts, like Jgoo for example. [/b]

Jgoo has his head on straight. Don't try to transfer your psychosis onto others. Deal with it. Go out and beat a rat to death.

I never really thought that as you said there may be something deeper, and as Larry said it might only be something I developed to hide some greater problem in me, but I've done a lot of thinking and can't think of anything!! After all, I love my family SO much and they are as kind as a family can be. It's hard talking about things like this with somoeone you know so well, so I thank you for reaching out to me.

I will post another response later today when I have more time to think, because soon I have to sign off. But Ariel, once again, thank you for caring (and thank you ALL for caring) and for writing such a long response! Life is so complicated sometimes! AAAARGH!

My warmest regards to all here,
BeePhlat

P.S. as for more about ME, I just turned 16 a week ago, and I live in the United States. Yes I'm in High School, in 10th grade. If there's anything more I can tell you, please don't hesitate to ask!![/b]

Apparently no one has taught you how to deal with life. If you think "life is complicated" because you aren't able to figure out that dead meat can't feel things, you are going to have a *real* problem when you have to fend for yourself.

The most compassionate thing I can think of to help you is this: You need your butt kicked. You need someone to make a man out of you. I am willing to do this for you, if you really want to be helped. After I have taught you what it *really* means for meat to hurt, here's what I will do to help you:

I will take away all your possessions, except for the clothes on your back. You will get a corner in the barn to sleep in, and some nice clean hay to make a bed with. Every morning at 5 am I will get you up and take you to work at the local slaughter house gutting hogs. Every night you will get your one meal for the day - one pound of raw hamburger, two pieces of bread, and a match. You will follow this routine until you learn to think like a man, and act like a man.

Every time you complain, I will kick your butt. Every time you mention dead meat feeling pain, I will kick your butt. Every time you act like a little sniveling worm, I will kick your butt. Once you start acting like a normal 16 year old, I will throw you a party, and let you quit your job and go home to momma. I assure you that you will have a completely different view of life when it's over. I will do all this because I am compassionate, and care about what happens to you.

By the way - the party will be at Longhorn's Steakhouse. You'll have the T-bone, rare.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#876335 - 05/17/03 06:55 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
The D's Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/01
Posts: 624
Loc: Southwestern Oregon
DISCLAIMER: I don't want to get onto anyone's bad side. What I say here is simply my opinion, not fact, and I DON'T want to start any wars with this.

Now that that is said, I would like to say something. BPM, I understand your phobia. I myself have had similar phobias, and some other phobias that are actually (believe or not) more strange. When I was in 8th grade, I refused to eat meat for a very similar reason. I have just been trying to accept to myself that, while I am against animal cruelty, I am not against eating meat. There are ways for animals to be put to death before they are eaten that just simply aren't as cruel as others. Some companies (like the one that McDonald's buys their chicken from) use extremely cruel methods of animal genetic altering: the chickens from that specific farm are injected with a chemical that sky-rockets their growth, and they are kept in cages so small they can't even open up their wings. On top of that, the growth enhancer causes their bodies to grow out of proportion with their legs, causing them to break when they can't hold the weight of the body. If you are REALLY concerned about this issue with animal cruelty, but don't want to discontinue eating meat, I suggest that you find out how different brands deal with their livestock. Then, based on your research, choose the one that you find least cruel.

Larry, I can understand your viewpoint, and I'll probably be flamed for saying that. Some people, like you, I'm guessing, were raised with the slaughter of animals, on a farm, and were "beaten up" every time they whined. I can see that with your posts you are using an underlying theme of humbleness. And perhaps humbleness is a problem with a lot of vegetarians, but probably not any more than any other sub-culture. This is my opinion: most of us (including me) on this post probably live at least decently comfortable and manageable lives. Therefore, it can be difficult for most of us to comprehend the crux and hardships of a *truly* poverished life. However, it doesn't make any sense to me that you should be preaching so harshly to someone who may have a problem with meat, considering, in other venues of your life, you probably have just as many personal preferences, and most of them probably a lot more shallow than an eating habit. Maslow, with his Hierarchy of Needs, stated that the foremost level of human development that needs to be met before any sort of more highly developed emotional stage can be met, is food and shelter. So, even though we all probably have the means to provide for that level, it's no problem, right? Well if BPM is having trouble with that level, it's possible for that problem to be inhibiting or stunting his ability to appreciate other things. Therefore, I don't believe that such a problem is something as shallow and unimportant as you believe.
 Quote:
Get your head out of your ass and use it.
As for this, I don't think it's necessary to get so rude about it. I'm sure you're enough intelligent to think of a better way to put this, and if not, then you could have just left it out.

Just my two cents' worth.
_________________________
Musically,
Benjamin Francis
http://www.myspace.com/benjaminfrancis
(I just changed my sig., so no grief, yeah?)
----------
Sofia Gilmson regarding Bach:
"Bach didn't write the subject; he wrote the fugue."

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#876336 - 05/17/03 07:28 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Larry,

Thank you very much. For those of us in those wayward part of the world who did not understand what on earth compassionate conservatism could mean, now we do now.

There seem to be to approaches on this forum : a compassionate liberal one and a "compassionate" conservatist one.

IMHO, each one of us, compassionates projects big time their need for parenting on BePhlatMinor who seems to be looking for "reparenting".

Let us hope that no harm is done and that no animal is reading this thread. They might have a bad time trying not to laugh and and therefore attract one of their predators (with fangs, claws, guns, you name it!).

BëPhlatMinor and Ariel : watch out you do not engage in a too involved relationship. The goal of the game is autonomy. If a little help goes toward that, well, let us hail Mr Gore who, as everybody knows invented the Internet.

The strange thing seems to be that the most Christians of all seem to be the Old Testament patriarcal, flood them all type and those in favor of meekness and understanding would often be Jewish.

Life is such a weird thing.

Since God seems to have created conservatives and liberals and that each breed seems to find the other one utterly missing one essential part, I would say that God was one who really liked a joke.

And now, ladies and gentleman,...

_________________________
Benedict

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#876337 - 05/17/03 07:59 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Steinway ... is that you?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Ă•un (apple in Estonian)

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#876338 - 05/17/03 08:23 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by apple: Steinway ... is that you?
[/b]
If it isn't then the piano forum are becoming quite the teen age psycho ward.

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#876339 - 05/17/03 08:27 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
My friend TomK,

I hope you do not say that because of yourself.

I have the greatest respect for you and your creative personalities. Do not be hard on yourself.

\:D

It is true that the idea that BePhlatMinor might be a reincarnation of Steinway crossed my mind.

The Internet has a chilling side : such warmth and opening and such creepy fantasies caused by anonymity.

But it might help most of us (including I hope BePhlat).
\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#876340 - 05/17/03 09:25 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
The name is Benedict.........Benedictionary, Benedictaphone, Benediction, Benedick test ( a test to determine susceptibility or immunity to Scarlet Fever), Benedictatorial, Benedictatorship of the proletariat, Benedictating machine, Benedictograph, Benedict......... I love your name and I love that you're back Madame la pomme AU bras
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Ă•un (apple in Estonian)

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#876341 - 05/17/03 09:38 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Madame la pomme au bras de fer,

I chose that name out of an immense admiration for Baruch Spinoza who chose that name when he was rejected from the Jewish community because he was considered heretical.

I have the same love for Spinoza as for Bach (and I suppose Rembrandt). I am glad you love my name.

I know that you are a very busy woman, but I would like to offer you an important extra job.

Would you accept to be appointed as our sheriff for detecting the incarnations of Steinway ?
The pay is not impressive. But the reward is making this Coffee Room a safer place.

I think it is the last time I will be fooled by Steinway's black hole.

If I thought I could help him, I wouldn't mind the psycho side. But I doubt he is asking for help. Just attention (both negative and positive). And he does get it.

Congratulations, Mrs Wyatt Earp.

\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#876342 - 05/17/03 09:54 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Hello BeePhlat,

Just wrote you a letter which like several in the last few days, got accidentally deleted, reminding me that one reason I want to hold back posting here is the evaporative nature of the medium! Poof!

No matter, it wasn’t anything like as long as before.

Which is where I began, in fact, expressing concern that the length of that posting may have led to many basic, and I thought clear, points getting lost in the shuffle. I was thinking especially about my strong hint/request that you think about what responsible adults you might seek out where you are, instead of in cyber-space.

Can you think of anybody to start with? And what are the chances that your family might be able to swing some kind of counseling for you so you have somebody to talk to outside the family? (Even with the most sympathetic parents - sometimes they just care too much to listen objectively!). Is this an option financially? Do you think they would be open to that, if it seemed like a good idea?

I think it is very important for you to explore your feelings with somebody, and having read the astonishing level of attacks on you, I have concluded that it is really not possible or desirable for you to continue to seek out support and understanding here.

Wherever they are “coming from”, these angry posters have certainly highlighted one thing - the main purpose of this Forum is for information and help in the areas of Pianos or Piano Playing/Music. The Coffee Room is kind of a free-for-all, populated mostly by adults who are not there to lend a sympathetic ear to your kind of situation. Quite the opposite, in fact. It is hard for me to tune them out (I guess there is that wanting to “explain” and "defend” - even give tit-for-tat - response that can keep things going, in the wrong way), and I am afraid you may take them too much to heart. It would certainly get to me.

Before coming back to your thread, I spent a little time searching Google, and I see that (as a family member suggested) there are lots and lots of “Mental Health” chat rooms, IRC’s, forums and message boards, some even aimed just at “teens” (which has pros and cons). If you go there, you might want to click onto “Anxiety” or “Phobia” or even just “General topics” (they usually make you choose).

There are two drawbacks to continuing to seek support on the Internet, however - in the framework I suggested. The first is that everybody there has problems, and that’s the main thing they have in common (instead of say, music, or current events). However, lots of people have problems - most do, in fact, at some point in their lives (I mean mental health kinds), and at least there, you won’t attract so much flak.. Then, as a musician, you can stick to less emotional issues at Piano World…There is the danger too that you will get “known” here for this fear thing, and it will influence your ability to be listened to about your musical interests.

The other drawback is the one I keep harping on (please glance at my earlier post, Gardner, if you are around and still concerned) - that the Internet is not a replacement for real-time, flesh and blood contact with somebody on the spot where you are!!! Please take this seriously, even if you shift your original question to one of the ‘Net spots where you will find a far more understanding and knowledgeable community to deal with this fear and others. You can, of course, also get incorrect information and advice, as well as meeting with other unruly or unhealthy posters - but no worse, I feel sure, than here.

I was writing at such length before, because I was trying to cover as much territory as possible, hopefully, prior to “easing out“ - to a large extent because of my other responsibilities.

I know your worries are very real, so, please let me (and other concerned visitors to your thread) know what direction you are taking! But overall - please get out of the way of the missiles aimed at you on this Forum. I’ll be waiting to hear… \:\)

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876343 - 05/17/03 10:08 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Ariel,

If BePhlat is Steinway (which I am convinced of), you cannot understand till you have been swallowed in a black hole.

I have been involved and tried sincerely to help as I would have done to my children or anybody looking really for help.

And then there was an incredible freak out in the Coffee Room which made the whole forum fear for its survival.

You think I am exaggerating ?

Ask the survivors.

There is something phony about BePhlat.

If I am wrong, BPhlat, please accept my apologies.

If I am not wrong, I hope nothing bad happens to you.

I feel sorry that you do not really want help but choose to act out on us instead.

I hope you outgrow this cybermadness and become the person you would like to be.

And please, do not take advantage on Ariel's kind heart. Unless it is to teach her the delicate balance between intimacy and self protection.

Ariel, I would like you to allow your wicked and selfish side to show more on this forum. It would give even more "relief" to your goodness which we all appreciate a lot.
\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#876344 - 05/17/03 10:46 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
David_J Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 175
Loc: Australia
PERSONAL STORY
Many years ago, I went to a chinese butchery and saw a dead pig getting cut up; I resolved to never eat meat again. I thought becoming a vegetarian was good morally and for health reasons (47% of Australians die from Heart Disease).

Next day I was eating lasagne and veal.
Taste vs. Animals & Personal Health...
Taste vs. Animals & Personal Health...

Sometimes you just have to prioritise.

As one wise man said "I'd rather die early than to eat tofu"... not that I mind tofu, but you get the picture \:\)

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#876345 - 05/17/03 11:06 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

Wherever they are “coming from”, these angry posters have certainly highlighted one thing - the main purpose of this Forum is for information and help in the areas of Pianos or Piano Playing/Music. The Coffee Room is kind of a free-for-all, populated mostly by adults who are not there to lend a sympathetic ear to your kind of situation. Quite the opposite, in fact. It is hard for me to tune them out (I guess there is that wanting to “explain” and "defend” - even give tit-for-tat - response that can keep things going, in the wrong way), and I am afraid you may take them too much to heart. It would certainly get to me.

I know your worries are very real, so, please let me (and other concerned visitors to your thread) know what direction you are taking! But overall - please get out of the way of the missiles aimed at you on this Forum. I’ll be waiting to hear… \:\)

Ariel[/b]
Ariel....dear..... I like you a lot, I really do. You have so much fun here, and that's what it's all about. I like reading your posts, because you put so much thought into them - you're a good person.

But you're being sucked in by a troll.

I know from what you've said previously that you are fairly new to internet forums, so you don't have a lot of experience with them. Most of us do though. There are no "angry posters" here..... we just see what's going on, and are making fun of it.

That said, if in fact the guy *was* really this nuts, while your intentions are good, you are doing the wrong thing by enabling him. I enjoy reading your posts and seeing you having fun here. I don't want to see you being taken advantage of by a troll, because you are putting your heart into this thing, and he's laughing at you for it. Think about it, Ariel..... he claims he thinks meat can feel him eating it...... how phony can you get?

Sit back and watch this one unfold.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#876346 - 05/17/03 11:34 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by The D's Pianist:
Larry, I can understand your viewpoint, and I'll probably be flamed for saying that. Some people, like you, I'm guessing, were raised with the slaughter of animals, on a farm, and were "beaten up" every time they whined.
[/b]
Just for the record, I was never "beaten up" as a child, nor did I "beat up" my own children. But they knew what I meant when I said I was going to "kick their butts". Go back and read the list of things I told this kid I would put him through. Does any of it describe my physically beating on him? No. Is his butt getting kicked? Yes.

The kid is a troll. If he's not, he's nuttier than a fruitcake, and we can't help him here. And if he's that nuts, he needs cold water thrown in his face and he needs medical attention, *not* a bunch of well meant but misguided "touchy feely" hand holding rewarding him for his actions.

Now.... as far as the farm and animal killing thing..... I'm half Cherokee. We buy our meat at Kroger......

\:D
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#876347 - 05/18/03 03:32 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Larry,

Half a Cherokee is better than no Cherokee at all as we say here.

But I keep wondering : what is the other part ?
Cossack ? Prussian ?



And please do not tell us that you understood first that it was a trollish thread.

You were fooled as much as we liberal compassionates were.

The winner is Iron Arm Apple: she should be our sheriff.

This troll is a very bright kid.
I suppose while he is trolling us, he is not putting viruses or Trojan horses in millions of companies or top security agencies.

Every cloud has a silver lining
(old Sioux saying)
\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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