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#876348 - 05/18/03 10:25 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
I have to say that I'm in the "Larry Camp" on this one. Call it being unsympathetic, cold, callous, whatever...BeePhlat will someday understand that there will be much tougher obstacles ahead in life. We ALL have a tendency toward certain obsessions, perversions, compulsions; it is the person who lets this thought take over their inner psyche that truely has the problem.
I am impressed by the football player who continues playing in the championship game despite a broken collar bone.
I am impressed by the soldier who keeps pushing onward despite the odds being stacked against him.
I am impressed by the cancer victim who has been given 3 months to live and continues to live life to the fullest.
I don't think the touchy-feely approach is the right tactic in your case.
One night in the trenches, or in the Shock Trauma Unit, or at your dying loved one's bedside will put this all into perspective. SNAP OUT OF IT BeePhlat!!! If Larry doesn't give you the woopen you need then I'll be sure to do it.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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Piano & Music Accessories
#876349 - 05/18/03 12:15 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
The D's Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/01
Posts: 624
Loc: Southwestern Oregon
Larry,
OK. Sorry about that. I didn't mean to make anyone angry. About the troll thing, I don't know... it's certainly a possibility. I think I just have trust problems--over-trust problems; I've been sucked in by trolls on the 'net before, and it's no fun game. So I'll just sit back for now, I think, on this one, and see what happens. Cherokee--impressive. ;\) I have always loved the Native American culture.

johnmoonlight,
 Quote:
at your dying loved one's bedside will put this all into perspective.
This is true. Very true. I know. Thank you for saying that. It even put it in perspective for me; I sometimes forget.

BPM,
Well, I have a new solution: play piano more. That's what has helped me through countless ordeals. Then, when you're eating meat, think about playing piano.

And, while I'm typing, benedict,
I love your posts. I almost feel like I should be starting a benedict fan club or something. ;\) They're always so full of thought and often have a wonderful tongue-in-cheek flavour. Merci: Vous êtes une très bonne personne avoir ici! \:D
_________________________
Musically,
Benjamin Francis
http://www.myspace.com/benjaminfrancis
(I just changed my sig., so no grief, yeah?)
----------
Sofia Gilmson regarding Bach:
"Bach didn't write the subject; he wrote the fugue."

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#876350 - 05/18/03 12:38 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
 Quote:
Originally posted by benedict:
Larry,

Thank you very much. For those of us in those wayward part of the world who did not understand what on earth compassionate conservatism could mean, now we do now.....

....Since God seems to have created conservatives and liberals and that each breed seems to find the other one utterly missing one essential part, I would say that God was one who really liked a joke.

And now, ladies and gentleman,...

[/b]
benedict:

A timelessly classic post! brilliant!

Nina

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#876351 - 05/18/03 02:55 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thank you everyone for your replies, especially Ariel!

However, I now see that my fear really is not so much to worry about and that I should just continue life and not worry so much.

Well, thanks again!

BeePhlat

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#876352 - 05/18/03 03:29 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
However, I now see that my fear really is not so much to worry about and that I should just continue life and not worry so much.

Well, thanks again!
[/b]
Another cure for psychoworld.com! What luck.

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#876353 - 05/18/03 05:31 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
StanSteel Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 646
Loc: Los Angeles
 Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTest:
What is the point of being a vegetarian if one's medical condition does not warrant it? I seriously doubt a few people who choose to eat plants will be able to make a difference against the majority of people who do not choose as such.

I can understand using electricty in place of oil/fuel in cars, since oil is a limited resource. Most animals, barring those who are extinct, are availble to enjoy in ample supply, since they, like people, are virtually unlimited due to continuos reproduction. It may make some ethical sense, and I am not trying to critize anyone's choice of food consumption, but I fail to see how it is practical. What is the goal?[/b]
Vegetarians might actually make a difference in the other direction. They might succeed in depleting the supply of nutritious plants, and starve the world population. Did they actually calculate that there would be enough hectares of cropfields to feed everyone. I haven't either, but in the meantime, just remember the world's population is increasing exponentially and will level off one day, because of the insufficience of agricultural surface. Think about how many more vegetables you need to eat to make up the energy you get out of a good steak. Also, why do you think we can't digest cellulose. Do you see the connection?
_________________________
"War does not determine who is right; only who is left."

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#876354 - 05/18/03 06:09 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Ya know, we're really dealing with two issues here, people. Let's separate them:

1) Was the initial post sincere and if so, just how much[/b] was this fear disturbing the writer?

I note for example that BeePhlat, since this thread appeared, has initiated several other threads, after very few prior postings at all.
Hmmm...

So let's focus on the second issue.

2) The "Touchy-feely", "enabling" allergy. The point of this, if I can try to summarize the viewpoint of its exponents (with Larry as spokesman), is that mental illness is a choice and/or weakness. Treating it by medication and/or insight, or modification in behavior and reconstucting events (or an "eclectic" approach, which is the norm these days) is simply "enabling" the person to be lazy and continue in his/her voluntary distortions.

In other words, hallucinations, delusions, disabling depression and anxiety, etc. ought to be treated (and can be cured) by a swift kick in the butt. And more.

Larry:
 Quote:
I will take away all your possessions, except for the clothes on your back. You will get a corner in the barn to sleep in, and some nice clean hay to make a bed with. Every morning at 5 am I will get you up and take you to work at the local slaughter house gutting hogs. Every night you will get your one meal for the day - one pound of raw hamburger, two pieces of bread, and a match. You will follow this routine until you learn to think like a man, and act like a man.

Every time you complain, I will kick your butt. Every time you mention dead meat feeling pain, I will kick your butt. Every time you act like a little sniveling worm, I will kick your butt. Once you start acting like a normal 16 year old, I will throw you a party, and let you quit your job and go home to momma. I assure you that you will have a completely different view of life when it's over [/b]
Or along with the actual and metaphoric cold water thrown in the person's face, his/her problems can be cured by a stiff shot of "reality" (such as true[/b] privation or seeing a loved one die).

Wow! Catchy school of therapy, not to mention an interesting spiritual/social attitude. "Compassionate conservatism" indeed, as Benedict says!

For supposedly educated people, your attitude is terrifying.

As I explained in another thread, I completed all the work for my doctorate in clinical psychology, after an undergraduate psych major at the top-rated (in Psychology) school in the country - known, by the way, largely for its research in other branches of Psychology than Clinical and thus not particularly keen on the clinical angle. Not "scientific" enough.

For your info, modern Psychology like Modern Linguitics or Philosophy, for that matter, has taken a dramatic shift away from their previous models, into the servo-mechanism, engineering, mathematical modeling and AI approach.

But nobody, not anywhere, at any reaches of Psychology - certainly noone who works with disturbed and impaired patients (as I did) - EVER doubts that mental illness exists. And that the suffering is very real. The terminology may differ and the blurred edges of diagnoses may arouse great controversy. People may argue about treatments and origin.

But this kick-in-the-butt school of thought is - weird. And inaccurate. And cruel.

Mental/emotional disturbance is cross-culturally documented with interesting variations (which I particularly studied), especially in the area of the milder forms of disturbance - which are, after all, defined by the context. That is, without being considered deviant, the person would not be seen as "ill", thus some behaviors seen as nutty in our society would be regarded as normal or even divine "gifts" in others.

The most well-known (some would say, infamous) critic of traditional psychiatry, Thomas Szasz, speaks against politicising of related issues, from the insanity defense to involuntary treatment, to over-diagnosis of ADD. His most famous book, The Myth of Mental Illness[/b] is really an argument against the state use of this concept as a form of control. He's kind of a psychiatric libertarian, but before you go around quoting him, note that he also advocates public access to all drugs alongside shutting the doors to mental hospitals (which he calls "jails").

There are abuses everywhere in the diagnosis and treatment of mental illness (and I too can see benefits in abolishing the "medical model" because it is both stigmatizing and can undermine the person's dignity and sense/responsibility for control.

Problem is, this model (and its vocabulary) works better than any other in organizing the handling of the issue, whether socially, economically and in treatment.

Your "coddling" hang-up is a political/economic statement rather than one based on the facts. A person with a chemical imbalance in their neuro-transmitters (wherever it comes from), who needs an anti-depressant in order to take responsibility for their life - and to want to - is not going to survive with kick-on-the-butt therapy.

In fact, most people suffering with severe mental illness would much rather undergo physical torture than the tortures of their own mind (which can, incidentally, raise real welts, among other things).

This "school of thought" could only come from someone with no personal experience of this kind of suffering and impairment. And also simply from an "empathic impairment" - lack of sufficient imagination to feel empathy for those who have.

In all probability, that lack comes more from unwillingness to partly underwrite the bill for approaches which might follow a different interpretation. In other words, the ideas are arrived at after[/b] the budgetary considerations, rather than from any conviction other than looking out for Number One.

The main problem in an accurate and adequate understanding mental illlness (for want of a better term) is that it is invisible[/b] - although, there is an increasing body of research demonstrating physical roots. The empirical evidence, in my book, obviates the need for brain scans and post-mortems, however. And since when is the only reality worth accepting, that which is visible anyhow?

Especially when we are dealing with the "psyche", which after all, does mean "soul".
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876355 - 05/18/03 06:33 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Correction to impression given above on my psych studies - I completed all the work, except[/b] my dissertation, interrupted by getting my "MaMa" instead of my "Phud". And deciding to return to Art work thereafter (and other stuff!).
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876356 - 05/18/03 06:46 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

2) The "Touchy-feely", "enabling" allergy. The point of this, if I can try to summarize the viewpoint of its exponents (with Larry as spokesman), is that mental illness is a choice and/or weakness. Treating it by medication and/or insight, or modification in behavior and reconstucting events (or an "eclectic" approach, which is the norm these days) is simply "enabling" the person to be lazy and continue in his/her voluntary distortions.

In other words, hallucinations, delusions, disabling depression and anxiety, etc. ought to be treated (and can be cured) by a swift kick in the butt. And more.
Wow! Catchy school of therapy, not to mention an interesting spiritual/social attitude. "Compassionate conservatism" indeed, as Benedict says!

For supposedly educated people, your attitude is terrifying.[/b]
Let's go back and put in the parts you conveniently left out. I said there is nothing wrong with him, that he is just a troll trying to stir up something. I also said that if he in fact *was* this nuts, he should seek professional help.

I am aware that people can have chemical imbalances that manifest themselves in various ways. I am also aware that there are a lot of people out there who are faking it for attention. I'm also aware that a lot of people rely on psychology instead of common sense. You don't need a degree to have common sense. Getting a degree doesn't give it to you either.

My "coddling hangup" as you call it is not a "political or economic" statement. That's so absurd it almost isn't worth responding to. And yes, it is based on facts. These are facts that the Dr. Spock crowd didn't want to acknowledge, but that modern psychologists are beginning to discover again, and that parents all over the world have employed for centuries - up until the "touchy feely" crowd decided that little Johnny was *not* being wantonly destructive and spoiled, he was just "expressing his creativity"..... since you left school they have begun to find out that in fact all those centuries of people raising kids had it right all along - little johnny was just being a spoiled brat, and needed his butt kicked.

I think in the end, you'll see that common sense was all that was needed here, and a good swift kick in the butt was the appropriate medicine. Apply liberally.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#876357 - 05/18/03 08:09 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Larry, with all due respect, you said a lot[/b] of things - some of which were not congruent. It reminds me of the saying about economists: "They make so many predictions, they're always right, because at least one of them comes true!"

That's why I specifically said I wanted to separate the issue of the crdibility of the originator of the thread, from the issue of the "Snap-Out-of-It" Approach to mental health which I thought you exemplified very well.

I am sensitive to that attitude because it is probably the most common misperception in our society about mental illness, amplified by today's economic concerns. It is adding insult to injury, for those - most of us[/b], at some point in our lives, by the way - directly experiencing it.

It's true that you said on and off that you thought that BFlat was faking. But even when you indicated you thought he really believed that meat-food can feel pain, your attitude was the same. And so was the attitude of those who agreed with you.

So at the risk of a lot of context elimination (and I cannot of course, reprint the whole thread) I will pull out the statements I was responding to - again because this attitude is so prevalent today, and therefore so important to address. Not to single you out for being particularly heartless.

Please re-read the first paragraph here, for acknowledgment that you said things which did (and didn't) attribute your tone to believing Bflat was a "troll". Even Benedict, who came to that conclusion, commented that you had expounded upon your therapeutic approach, before reaching that conclusion.

Originally posted by BeePhlatMinor (quoted by Larry):

You may call my fear silly and childish but if your son thought that his bowel movements would drown then I guess you should have more compassion for my fear.[/b]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry:
 Quote:

My son was 3 years old. You're 16. Get your head out of your ass and use it. *That* is compassion...

Jgoo has his head on straight. Don't try to transfer your psychosis onto others. Deal with it. Go out and beat a rat to death.

...Apparently no one has taught you how to deal with life. If you think "life is complicated" because you aren't able to figure out that dead meat can't feel things, you are going to have a *real* problem when you have to fend for yourself.

The most compassionate thing I can think of to help you is this: You need your butt kicked. You need someone to make a man out of you. I am willing to do this for you, if you really want to be helped. After I have taught you what it *really* means for meat to hurt, here's what I will do to help you: [/b]
Followed by the excerpt of your "treatment" I quote earlier. And here's what others made of this:

jazzyd wrote
 Quote:
That was a great post Larry; everything you said makes sense to me.

Even though I don't see it as such, I get the feeling my upbringing would have been nightmarish or barbaric by current standards. Between the ages of 5 and 10 or so I was smacked/beaten/yelled at on a fairly regular basis when I misbehaved or disboeyed. Had I developed OCD, ADD or something similar, I am pretty sure my father would have knocked it out of me in an afternoon.
[/b]Summary, sufficient beatings and toughness, get rid of emotional/mental deviance:

followed by TomK:
 Quote:
Great post Larry.

...A good kick in the pants could solve 99% of the ADDS problems (and put 99% of the child psychiatrists out of business.)
[/b]
Tom also thinks ADD is curable by butt-kick therapy. (By the way, Tom, if it worked, I assure you we parents with severely ADD kids would have found relief a long time ago. We will try ANYTHING[/b] ! And if one of your kids had ADD, I guarantee you, you would be singing a different tune.)

And then, Larry, you came back in a later post, intending in part to educate me and protect me from being manipulated by trolls - as did Benedict - which incidentally, I appreciate from both of you (in addition to your kind attributions):

Larry, referring again to comparisons between his son, at age three, believing his bowel movments were alive (a classic toddler fantasy, by the way) - and how he would have responded to his son expressing the same belief later in life (a very abnormal belief, or delusion):
 Quote:

Had he come to me at the age of 18 and told me that, I'd have told him he had exactly 5 seconds to straighten out his act, or I'd flush *him*.

You are a kind, caring soul. So am I. We just have different ideas about how to help someone. You want to have them talk it out, to enable them. I on the other hand, think that anyone who thinks that a steak is still alive needs to be forced to face reality....

His "problem" required no more than a couple of sentences - "That's stupid, and you know it. Now get your act together and act like you've got good sense, or go get help." Everthing passed that is feeding his disease.
[/b]Disease...

Hope that's enough context for you, Larry. The belief that people suffering from a mental illness can get over it just by being treated with "tough love" - is one which inflicts still more suffering on the sufferer. This is especially because an individual who finds himself in the grips of such an affliction, is often prone to blame himself and feel ashamed, rather than seeking help as with any other uncontrollable illness. It's just another way of "blaming the victim".

I assure you people with emotional/mental problems have tried like hell to "snap out of it" or "get a grip on themselves", many with courage you cannot imagine. And it's right for sure, that like everyone, they play the hand they're dealt as best they can.

But people faced with an approach like you described: "you know better - meat doesn't feel. That's stupid" and "I'll kick you if you say anything deviant", do not[/b]get over their delusions or whatever. They just learn to shut up about it.

(Unless of course they are[/b] malingering, which is a different story!)

Hence much greater suffering and many suicides...
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876358 - 05/18/03 09:13 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
With all due respect Ariel, I respect your educated opinion on this case. However, as an ER physician who also spent 4 yrs in family practice, I see this in a slightly different light. On more than one occasion I have butted heads with psychologists but that is a different story altogether. Personally, I have seen much more dramatic results from medications than from intensive one-on-one counselling.(and there are plenty of studies to substantiate what I am saying) I have had psychologists tell MY patients that "Your doctor really shouldn't be treating you with that medication." And to say this AFTER I referred the patient to him for counselling!(BTW for those who aren't aware, psychologists do not have the capability of prescribing medications) I do see where psychological therapy can make a bigger difference than medication alone. Sorry I have gotten off-topic and in no way do I mean this as a psychology bashing session.
But I want you to look at this case from a distance. You have a person claiming to be afraid of hurting a dead slab of meat...GET REAL!
If this is a true obsession of BeePhlat well so be it. But in no way is this obsession going to lead to his difficulty functioning in society. Unless of course there are other obsessions that we don't know about. So the solution is either for him to become a vegetarian or to be butt-kicked by Larry. Put this boy in a real life crisis situation and suddently those dead slabs of meat will become less intimidating. An analogy that imediately comes to mind is the patient who calls me after a loved one has died and asks for a month out of work to "grieve". Is this really doing the patient a favor. The worst thing to do is to take that person out of the usual day-to-day activities so that they can sit around and mope. To hold BeePhlat's hand and cry tears of sympathy is telling this kid one thing: If I act like a woos, I'll be rewarded in a big way...this feels really good. I have patients all the time who just love being admitted to the hospital...pretty nurses waiting on you hand and foot, sponge baths, sleeping pills, medicine for whatever ails you, etc.
Now dothis poor kid justice and tell him to get over his ****-poor excuse for mental suffering.
My son is 4 years old. If he ever has a fear of eating meat I'll kick his a** and tell him to straighten up or move out of the house. And if that doesn't work, I'll send him to his long-lost Cherokee uncle named Larry in Georgia! \:D
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

Top
#876359 - 05/18/03 09:13 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
ob1knabe Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 141
Loc: New Jersey
Ariel--
You express yourself from a strong and vast knowledge base. As a school counselor, I could not agree more with you regarding your beliefs on mental and emotional illnesses. I've been doing this job for 20 years--and I can certainly vouch that no child wants to have ADD or any type of mental disorder. All they want to do is fit in and be just like every other kid sitting in the desks next to them. If a kick in the butt would fix this problem, many of these kids themselves would be lining up to receive it. Often times you do have a child who will go to excessive lengths to get attention (suicidal ideation being one method)and maybe it is determined that it is just for attention. But that in itself reeks of a problem. It is a symptom that needs addressing. I have watched children reach adolescence and have witnessed major changes in their abilites to handle things. Problems that were minor in 6th grade can become major in subsequent years. I am convinced that hormones that are going crazy in a young person's body have a direct effect on certain behaviors--OCD being one of them. I am not saying that this always happens--but I have seen enough evidence to believe that there is cause and effect in certain areas.

Children's needs vary based in part on their environmental influences but also on their intrinsic make up--including chemical balances/imbalances. Many times I have seen two children from the same family, brought up in the same way, with two very different responses to their worlds. One child may have ADD the other may not. One child may suffer from depression, the other may not. One child may kill him/herself, the other may not. Sadly, I have seen the results of adolescent suicide. It is not pretty.

Ariel--you're not enabling anyone. You have consistently directed this young person to seek help. You don't need to question or defend yourself.

Just think, if OCD could have been cured with a kick in the butt, Shakepeare might never have written Macbeth.

Ob1knabe
_________________________
"A thing of beauty is a joy for ever"
John Keats

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#876360 - 05/18/03 09:25 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Anonymous
Unregistered


I really don't know what's going on here. I post a thread about something that may be a little weird but nothing mean against anyone on the forum, and I am accused of having mental illnesses, stirring up strouble, bbeing a "troll," etc. I'm sorry. I just can't see what I did wrong. I first came to this forum about a month ago hoping to get advice on piano playing (pianist corner) and other things (coffee room.)

I did not intend to hurt anyone and honestly, I have no clue why people are getting mad at me just because I post a simple question. I have not been rude to anyone, or said anything mean. I simply asked a question to those who wished to answer and was rather shocked by how you call me mental and all. Either this forum is entirely a big huge joke and in fact everybody here is about 10 or 11 years old or you all are just really bored and just find someone who asks a rather serious question to pick on. You know what? That's not really why I came here. My parents are excellent parents. All I asked, as I've said about a million times now, was a question concerning animals. Yes it does trouble me but it is not like I am completely obsessed. Let's be totally honest here; something in my question obviously ****ed you off, and I'm just curious- what!??? A 16-year old asking if dead meat can feel pain- can you at least respect me? I am not seeking attention because if I wanted attention I could run around my school with wine bottles attatched to me and yell "I am the letter H" or something. I just posted a simple question here with no harm intended towards anyone. Yes I do post other things here, my life does not revolve around this one post. So if you have picked me to blame for some reason (maybe YOU all have some mental problems or something- I suggest seeing a counselor IMMEDIATELY) and want to tease or make fun of me then you know what, I DON'T CARE. This is a fregging internet forum and the reason I came here was to make some new friends who share the same interestes as I. Piano. And I thought there were some reasonable people here I could share my concerns with but obviously I was wrong. If all you do is make fun of people (do you do this to all new members, or do you randomly select one, do you pick one who seems fun to mock, or do you pick all even member numbers or odd member numbers, etc.? I'm just curious) and if you pick me and my concerns to mock, and if you feel like taking you ranger out on me and calling me bad names simply because I post a question that may seem a bit awkward to you then I really don't know what to say. If someone posted a thread like this then I would probably approach it like Ariel- with a kind, open attitude. I wouldn't call the person a troll, mock his parents, make fun of him and the quesiton he asked, and then just generally make up some crap about him, or say that he needs a godo spanking. Those days are over. You people were probably born in the 50s or 60s or even 40s and if your asses were beaten raw and you have problems with that see a counselor. Are childhood memories troubling you? Perhaps you should see a doctor. You know what? I have tried to be as nice as possible when people gave me some rather harsh replies because I thought that they were right- posting here means that people of all types will answer, and I respect Larry's and everyone's opinions and ideas and suggestions greatly and truly appreciate the time taken to try to help me. But now (as seen in the "appeasement" thread, where all I wanted to do was ask opinions on something I recently learned in my history class) I think all you want to do (some exceptions) is just mock me and try to make me feel stupid or something. Well, let me tell you something. I'm not. I may have a rediculous fear, but then again, haven't you all had something rediculous you did/thought about in your childhood, or even today? I doubt you were perfect. If you want to mock me and say that I am deliberately trying to cause trouble then I'M NOT. There are tons of quesitons posted here every day and just because mine's a little odd you feel you can say I want attention and cause trouble? Why? What have I done to you? If I offended you in some way I apologize, but I don't feel I deserve this treatment.

Now I am going to bed.

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#876361 - 05/18/03 09:27 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Anonymous
Unregistered


By the way I'm not crazy and I don't have OCD I simply asked a simple question. My life is fine and everything is going just fine. I have great friends, I'm doing really well in school, I practice the piano a lot, and I am a relatively normal person.

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#876362 - 05/18/03 09:46 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Trubrit Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 2
Loc: England
You know, BPhlat, just the other day a regular poster signed in under a different name because he/she had a question that he/she didn't want everyone to associate with him/her. The question was perfectly valid and received a generous amount of support. This person obviously did not feel safe using his/her regular user name. At first I didn't fully understand why, but now I see that it is a safety issue. I really don't think this thread is about you anymore--I think it's more about how other posters need to validate their parenting skills and find blame in the approaches of other parents whose styles don't mesh with their own. You have tried to accept what people have said to you--the good, the bad, and the ugly. You have even tried to close the post--but others have wanted to keep it going.

Just to reassure you, there is no scientific evidence to support your fears. I hope you get a good night's sleep.
_________________________
Chemistry teachers have solutions.

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#876363 - 05/18/03 09:49 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
A member raise his head to cry
"Take care of me.. love me...
regard me special...or I'll make your lives hell

Someone gentle and loving who'll invite him to stay...Some who'll kick his butt every day.

Somewhere between the two extremes is possibly a place where a person can find the answers he seeks to deal with himself.

Maybe he'll find that all he needs to be at peace is the assurance that every thing he needs to guide himself is within..

Maybe he needs the love of parents and only feels hatred..

Maybe he'll find that all his fears, desires, rages and love can be expressed through the music all of us love..

Maybe the affirmation he seeks will not be so strong a driving force..

Maybe he'll be good..

Maybe he'll be a wonderful contributing talented society member..

Maybe he'll seek professional help..

Who knows? I suppose the best we can hope for is that we don't do him wrong.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#876364 - 05/18/03 10:05 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i tried to post earlier in this thread but the computer ate my reply because i used too many graemlins.

i was very offended by the post that suggested someone could have ADD beaten out of them. i know someone who, as a young boy, had a father who tried to beat ADD out of him; that child was brutalized for things he had no control over. he grew up to become psychotic, and died in his 30s from complications caused by anti-psychotic drugs given to him by his doctors.

i think Bb is d**n straight when he reprimands those who talk about making a "man" out of him. neanderthals who obviously have their own childhood abuse issues to work out!

Bb, i also wanted to answer your question straight up because i do not think it is a crazy question at all. from my imperfect understanding of quantum physics, everything in the universe--including us and the animals we eat--are made out of the same energetic material; it takes different forms. rocks, dead animals, water--energetically, everything that exists is the same.

from this perspective, it is indeed possible that animals might feel pain from your eating them, but it would be in an esoteric sense, on a vibrational level, which is something most people are not cognizant of.

so, it is indeed possible that you are sensitive to this level of reality in a way that the vast majority of people are not.

i would recommend that you read about both quantum physics and also possibly some buddhist philosophy. there are some remarkable similarities between the two, and it is possible that some of your experiences may make more sense within this context.

from a purely practical matter, to deal with the unpleasantness of the experience, i would first evaluate whether or not you really need meat for your health. meat is very important for some constitutions, but very unhealthy for other kinds of constitutions. if you crave meat, you probably need it, and if you are revolted by it, it probably is not a good food for you.

so, becoming a vegetarian is one option. but if your body craves meat, then you might think about asking the animal for forgiveness before you eat it. you can do this silently, in your mind, as a way of honoring the being who is helping you to live and stay healthy.

and it is also important to accept that all of us must kill to live, it is part of the natural order of things.

plus, you can choose to only eat animals who were raised and slaughtered humanely.

again, i think buddhism might be helpful to you here. the tibetan buddhists do eat meat (not much in the way of veggies can grow in the elevations of tibet), and their philosophy about how to take another life responsibly might be of use to you.

i have not had the experience of feeling that the animal might feel pain even though it is dead, but i have had the experience of at least imagining i feel what an animal feels when i catch it (in the case of a fish), or kill it (in the case of a deer). i have had the experience of identifying with my prey. it is an unsettling and unnerving experience. it's the reason i don't hunt or fish any more.

there are other levels of reality besides the one that most of our society accepts as reality. possibly you are attuned to this, and your experience comes from that sensitivity. the best thing to do is ask yourself what this experience is telling you about how you should conduct your life. honor your sensitivity and listen to what it is telling you. don't squash it just because most don't have it.

now, it's possible that you aren't sensitive, you are just crazy, but i don't think any of us should jump to that conclusion from what you posted here online.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#876365 - 05/18/03 10:13 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
jazzyd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 1861
Loc: United Kingdom
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
jazzyd wrote
 Quote:
That was a great post Larry; everything you said makes sense to me.

Even though I don't see it as such, I get the feeling my upbringing would have been nightmarish or barbaric by current standards. Between the ages of 5 and 10 or so I was smacked/beaten/yelled at on a fairly regular basis when I misbehaved or disboeyed. Had I developed OCD, ADD or something similar, I am pretty sure my father would have knocked it out of me in an afternoon.
[/b]Summary, sufficient beatings and toughness, get rid of emotional/mental deviance:[/b]
Ariel,

That was my father's approach.

Should I become a parent, I don't think I could ever bring myself to emulate it - regardless of how badly my child behaved. And if you look at the post of Larry's with which I agreed, I am fairly sure he makes no mention of doing that either.

I did not enjoy being hit, but I would not describe my childhood as anything other than happy. I am more than willing to be candid about the downsides to the way I was punished:

1. It contributed to my father and I not being particularly close.

2. It hurt!

As for the upside, I can only give account of myself, but it rapidly instilled in me a fear of the consequences of wrongdoing, poor manners and anything else that might have earned me a wallop. Ironically, this is precisely one of the reasons why you are unlikely to find me going around hitting others for reasons other than self-preservation.

Hope that clarifies a few things; it's very late and I can hear my Dad's voice asking why I'm not in bed... ;\)

David
_________________________
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

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#876366 - 05/18/03 10:30 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
To JohnMoonlight:
I appreciate your comments, but I feel that you must be reacting to something other than what I said - skip the posts addressed specifially to BPhlat.

I said, in response to Larry, that I saw two issues - the one regarding the issue of Bphlat, and the other the issue of how to treat mental illness. I wanted to focus on the second, which is very important and I said why.

If you read my posts about that concern - and I know they are long - you will see that I have never expressed myself in favor of a purely counseling approach to mental/emotional problems. In fact, to express myself more explicitly - I think often medication does[/b] do far more good than counseling, and can be a prerequisite for counseling to work, if counseling is indicated.

My "ADD" son, for example, was unfortunately incapable of benefitting from counseling at all. If a child or adult has OCD, often a medication such as Clonidine is the best and only effective treatment for them.

I am confused about your description of your relationship with psychologists because I do not know any psychologists who do not have a working, collegial relationship with a psychiatrist as part of their practice (and I described as much to BPhlat way back when).

Unfortunately I have not mastered the knack in this medium for using a conversational aproach, perhaps because I go on and off line, and besides my dial-up connection makes everything so slow!

Especially when an issue is so complicated and important (and one does not want to elucidate line by line, replying to many posts which may have missed the gist), I think it is more effective to state and elaborate a point of view in essay form. I think so, even with the sinking awareness that probably noone reads them, as responses I am getting here seem to prove.

Nonetheless, there are few issues in our society more important to clarify than that of mental illness - its existence as a real phenomenon and what treatment works for it.

Yes, it exists and no - kicking the person in the butt does not make it go away.

And none of this has anything to do with BPhlat and his initiation of the thread, his degree of pathology (if any), his sincerity (or lack thereof - I don't presume anything in saying, this Bphlat. I switched topics a while back!).

Clear? I hope!
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876367 - 05/18/03 10:40 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
JohnM.: By the way, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "Get Real!" in reference to BeePhl. That he could not possibly be serious or that his "complaint" was so off the wall, that he really was out of touch with reality? If the former, I have trouble figuring, as in my experience there is absolutely nothing so far-out that a person cannot believe it either through a distortion in thinking or because of a cultural framework which supports it.

But I would like to keep the two issues separate - him, and the other issue as outlined above (and above and above and above).
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876368 - 05/18/03 11:01 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
jazzyd -

Thanks for your response. I appreciate your elaboration, and I must apologize as I see re-reading the thread, that I accidentally did attribute your and TomK's responses to a later and more extreme post by Larry. Larry - sorry, I see I did get the chronology of your posts wrong.

David, I guess the one thing I would like to clarify is that initials like ADD and OCD describe agonizing disturbances, which disable not only the child (if we are talking of a child) but potentially the entire family. They're not just "bad behaviour". And in most cases they have a very strong physical basis, and are best treated by medications - or at least, medications as a sine qua non.

In my son's case, I have often felt I was living proof of the saying: "Of course[/b], insanity is inherited. We get it from our children!"

Ariel

P.S. What are[/b] you doing up past 3 AM??
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876369 - 05/18/03 11:26 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
TruBrit - I had the same thought...

OB1Knabe - Thank you very much.

By the way, regarding your reference to Shalespeare and OCD, did you mean MacBeth as in "Out, out damned spot!"
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876370 - 05/19/03 12:31 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:

i was very offended by the post that suggested someone could have ADD beaten out of them.
[/b]
Pique, I really wish you would pay attention when you read. No one, I repeat - NO ONE - suggested any such thing.

 Quote:

i think Bb is d**n straight when he reprimands those who talk about making a "man" out of him. neanderthals who obviously have their own childhood abuse issues to work out!
[/b]

Again, pay attention! I clearly stated that neither me nor my children had any "childhood abuse issues" to work out. I clearly defined just what a "butt kicking" entailed. So climb down off your little high horse of "enlightened intellectualist feminism" for a moment, and let me introduce you to the *real* world.

In case you aren't aware, men and women serve different functions in the development of a child. Women nurture. Men make them ready to face life. You seem to think there's something wrong with making a boy into a man. This may come to a shock to you, but that's the way it works, and when you try to do it any other way you end up with a screwed up mess.

Do you even know what it means to "make a man" out of a boy? I don't think you do. Here's another clue for you - society has tried your approach. What we ended up with was a bunch of sissy males. You feminists asked men to get in touch with their "feminine side", so they did. Now women are wanting to know where the men went. You can call it neanderthal if you want, but you show your own ignorance when you do so. My children never once got hit, but they got "butt kickings" when they needed them. Go back and read what a butt kicking means, and pay attention this time.

Let me tell you how this "neanderthal" raised his own kids. I read to them. I spent hours talking to them, teaching them. I answered most all their questions. They trusted me to tell them the truth, and they looked to me securely for guidance. They counted on me to be there if they needed someone wiser than themselves. If they did something wrong and knew better, they knew I would punish them for it. And that might mean a "butt kicking". For example, my son stole some cassette tapes from another fellow when he was 12. I saw him as he was doing it. I saw him sneaking away from the other fellow's car, and hide it in his backpack. Then he lied to me about it. So he got a "butt kicking". He had to return the cassette tapes to the fellow he stole them from (a step sister's boyfriend) in front of the entire family, apologize, and then give the fellow all his own cassette tapes as well. Then, since he no longer had need of a cassette player, he had to give his cassette player to the church. for the next 6 months, he went without being able to listen to any music in his room, he was not allowed to buy any cassettes, and he was required to take his chore money (I do not give "allowances".... you work for what you get, or you do without) and buy cassette tapes with the money, and give those tapes to the fellow he stole from. Once a month I would ask him what lesson he had learned. 5 months in a row, he told me "not to steal". It was only on the 6th month that he finally figured it out. "By stealing from him, I violated everyone's trust in me. I harmed my honor as a man. Stealing is wrong, but things can be replaced. My self respect, and the respect of others cannot be replaced if I ruin that." I took him shopping that day for a new cassette player, and some tapes.

In other words, Pique, I taught him one lesson on how to be a man. He has done a lot of things since then, but he has never stolen again. If he had come to me with something that I thought was caused by a medical condition or chemical imbalance, or mental condition, I would have immediately gotten him help. I would not have made fun of him, nor would I have hit him for it. But I am smart enough to tell when a kid is pulling a stunt and when he's not. Maybe you can't tell the difference, I don't know. But I can. And if my kid had told me that he was afraid dead meat could feel him eating it, or if he had come to me and told me about "other realities" or about Buddhist philosophy and how everything is of the same "energy source", I would have given him exactly 5 seconds to quit acting like a damned fool. I would *not* have humored such stupidity.

Actually, after reading your silly rant about buddhist philosophy and there being "other realities", and your admission that you too don't know that dead meat can't feel you eating it, I have to say that you are as nutty as the kid is.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#876371 - 05/19/03 12:40 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Mental health experts, psychologists, counselors, therapists. We don't need them. In Oregon, the State has closed the mental health clinics, no problem, only affects the poor.

Getting hard to find a shopping cart though. . .
=================

Two days before the fate of measure 26-48 will be known. If it fails, we will indeed all be equal. Survival of the fittest (richest), the rest be damned.


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#876372 - 05/19/03 01:36 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Actually, after reading your silly rant about buddhist philosophy and there being "other realities", and your admission that you too don't know that dead meat can't feel you eating it, I have to say that you are as nutty as the kid is.
coming from you, i take that as a high compliment, larry! (what else would i have expected from you?)

now that you've "defined" what you mean by "butt kicked" i have to say i agree with it. however, david initially took what you said the way i did, and responded by talking about his own father's physical abuse, and it was david's post that i was responding to.

i'm not a mind reader, so thanks for clearing up your terminology. "butt kicked" sure sounds like something physical to me.

 Quote:
society has tried your approach. What we ended up with was a bunch of sissy males. You feminists asked men to get in touch with their "feminine side", so they did. Now women are wanting to know where the men went.
first of all, i am adamantly NOT a feminist and consider that term a slur. but i do not believe in roles for myself or my partner. i believe he and i should get to express all sides of ourselves, and some of those sides are considered to be "feminine" and some are considered to be "masculine"--by others, not us. we are just being ourselves.

i don't know which women you are talking about who wonder where the men went, but it ain't me. always been plenty of men around as far as i can tell. ;\)

what you think my approach is i don't know, but i suspect you haven't a clue what my approach is. i am actually one of those rare people who believe that actions have consequences, and that children greatly benefit from experiencing the full consequences of their actions.

none of that has anything to do with a sensitive adolescent boy who feels uncomfortable eating meat. Bb didn't steal anything, he didn't lie to us, he has said or done nothing to warrant a "butt kicking." he's merely expressed something of who he is. it is wrong and cruel to attack him in the way you have, larry. i am really disgusted with you.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#876373 - 05/19/03 02:06 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:

coming from you, i take that as a high compliment, larry! (what else would i have expected from you?)[/b]
And I take it as a compliment that you took it as a compliment.


none of that has anything to do with a sensitive adolescent boy [/b]

I'm trying to teach him a new sensitivity.


who feels uncomfortable eating meat. Bb didn't steal anything, he didn't lie to us, he has said or done nothing to warrant a "butt kicking." he's merely expressed something of who he is. it is wrong and cruel to attack him in the way you have, larry. i am really disgusted with you.[/b]

There was no reason for him, you, or anyone else to misinterpret my meaning of "butt kicking", as I laid out what the butt kicking was going to be right in the post. I understand you consider what I am doing as "attacking and cruel". But the fact is, he hasn't learned anything yet. And he never will, as long as he has your skirt tails to hide behind. He dropped this little turd in the well and asked for help. I'm giving it to him. As soon as he learns something, I'll leave him alone. At 16, his "expression of who he is" needs to change. So be as disgusted as you want. If he's a troll, he's just getting what he deserves. If he's not, he needs to learn some things. He won't learn them being coddled.

'k?

\:D
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#876374 - 05/19/03 05:05 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
jazzyd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 1861
Loc: United Kingdom
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
P.S. What are[/b] you doing up past 3 AM??[/b]
Writing a very long and very difficult letter to an elderly relative, which I didn't start until about 11pm.

I take onboard what you said about OCD and ADD. I will admit that I am a little skeptical, but also that you could fit my knowledge of such things onto the back of postcard.

My comment was just a musing on how I might have been dealt with that I didn't give a lot of thought to. It wasn't supposed to be a recommendation for the treatment of other children, as interpreted by pique, but I can see that it looks bad.

David
_________________________
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

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#876375 - 05/19/03 05:20 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
BePhlat,

I cannot believe that a real person will believe that meat feels. Not in the 21st century.

Maybe in the 22nd century, everybody will know that meats feels anguish and pain and dreams about hunting and mating. But for the time being the only person who is 16 and thinks and feels that is a IMHO a suitable case for treatment.
One thing is to have phantasies or hallucinations that you know are not real. Another thing is to believe in them.
You know the difference.

The internet is a weird place and this Coffee Room, well, I won't say anything about this Coffee Room.
We have had a very troubling experience with a Steinway/Etude/Peter...

He started with the same kind of question you asked and elicited attention of people (not only parents but teenagers as well) who tried to help him.

We were very awed and shocked to discover we were played by a virtuoso.

Very unpleasant experience.

My guess now is that you are Steinway who is not making his mind between playing mind games with us and just being a normal, regular, boring person like the rest of us.

If you choose to become boring, welcome in the club.

If my guess is wrong, please apologize someone who has been troll-shocked.

And congratulations to have started a very rich thread who turned into a battle between two armies of compassionate people.


Now I am going to have breakfast. I hope my coffee and my bread do not suffer too much.

\:D
_________________________
Benedict

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#876376 - 05/19/03 09:59 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
Bb didn't steal anything, he didn't lie to us[/b] he has said or done nothing to warrant a "butt kicking." .[/b]
With all due respect pique, while you were on hiatus the forum was treated to the antics of steinway - whoever. If you had been witness to day after day of his convoluted aggressive manipulatives, you would realize that "yes" he did lie to us.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#876377 - 05/19/03 10:44 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
ob1knabe Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 141
Loc: New Jersey
 Quote:
In case you aren't aware, men and women serve different functions in the development of a child. Women nurture. Men make them ready to face life.
You know, I think a couple different posters have mentioned that this thread has moved more to adddressing methodologies of parenting than the originial question, and I think Larry's comment quoted above supports that viewpoint. It's a comment that begs a response so here's mine:

As a woman, as a mother, I strongly feel that it is my responsibility to prepare my children to face life. Is there a mother out there in this forum who does not believe you have that responsibility? It is my job to teach my children good decision making skills so that they can think for themselves and learn to say no to things which might harm them. It is my job to teach them to have respect--respect for others and respect for themselves. It is my job to teach them to recognize their strengths and limitations--and how not to be fooled by either one. It is my job to teach them to work through their fears and not add to them. It is my job to prepare them for life.

I can take my children anywhere and be proud of them. They know how to travel on an airplane, assimilate into another culture, sit quietly at church and behave in a piano store. They know that if a teacher were to ever tell me anything negative, I would believe the teacher. For consequences, we have work therapy. Cleaning the baseboards gives a kid time to think about what he/she has done wrong. Sometimes I know I've had the cleanest baseboards in the whole town. But we also talk about it. If learning an important value or lesson hasn't occurred--I'm going to keep teaching. That's my responsibility. And, Larry, maybe I'm even tougher than you in some ways--I don't give my kids any money for doing chores. You do chores because you're part of the family--and that's part of what a family does--they help each other. My kids are 7 and 10--as time moves on, I will give them an allowance to help develop a sense of fiscal responsibility--but that's still in the future...and it's part of how I plan to prepare them for life. It's part of my job.

I am not a perfect parent, and I am not professing I have perfect children. I have made mistakes and know I will make more. I have raised them with tons of love melded with structure and consequences. I do not humiliate them--I try to teach them. I also have not done this by myself. My children have a very nurturing father who also provides support and structure. We work as a team. Should anything happen to me, my kids will be left with a father who knows how to nurture, listen, and discipline. I see that as a gift.

So when I see that someone wants to relegate me to being only the nurturer in the family--I've got to say there's another way. I'm going to prepare my kids for life in the best way that I possibly can---using all of my talents. I'm also going to weigh this responsibility higher than any other one. \:\)

Don't mean to get so far off the original topic here. Perhaps we just need to go to a totally different thread on this. My guess is most of us are going for the same outcome with our children. We want them to grow up with the ability to think for themselves and not be encumbered by fear. I just believe it is important to teach children to operate out of respect rather than fear.

Ariel--
Yes-- \:D

Ob1knabe
_________________________
"A thing of beauty is a joy for ever"
John Keats

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