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#876648 - 06/08/03 08:53 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
I'm not weighing in on either side of the enviornmental argument (ya'll could probably guess my views anyway), but if pique wants to remain anonymous, that's her right.

My .02 cents.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#876649 - 06/08/03 09:10 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
I'm not demanding pique should tell us who she is. What I am saying is that pique is prepared to step into a discussion and state that her opinion is supported by the fact she was an investigative journalist and she has published articles on the very subject the discussion is about. She then cannot actually provide the articles because she wants to maintain her anonymous status on the forum. A suitable analogy might be an anonymous source condemning the Government for something with the only supporting evidence being that the reporter tells the viewers/readers that the source is "reliable" or "an insider". While this sort of reporting is fine for selling newspapers or maximising viewing figures, it is unrealistic to condemn the Government for accusations that are best, just hearsay. I'm sorry, but pique is making serious allegations, that major environmental organisations are deliberately distorting and misrepresenting the truth on environmental issues. What she is saying is that they are conning the public in order to maximise donations. People here, might accept pique's opinion, based on what they know of her reputation on this forum, but I cannot.
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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#876650 - 06/08/03 09:42 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Phykell - your web kingdom is great! What a wonderful life and a 9 foot Steinway too! The furniture is lovely. I love these snippets of various informations that emerge in these threads. (I'm enjoying the environmentalist conversation too, even tho it started out anti meat and I am personally an omnivore).
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#876651 - 06/08/03 09:52 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4110
Phykell, those are some very interesting cats! ( I prefer them to dogs!) What size room do you have your piano in? Comparing with other D's you have played, even new ones, how does yours compare in terms of tone/power?

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#876652 - 06/08/03 10:03 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
TomK stated above:
 Quote:
That's dangerously close to a complement, Toots [/b]
c-o-m-p-l-I-m-e-n-t[/b]

*****************************************
Nina
Full Member
Member # 429
Member Rated:
posted May 23, 2003 12:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by TomK to Ariel:
 Quote:
Posted by Nina: And further, you even complemented me. In the future--DON'T.[/b]
Nina:
 Quote:
An oddly insightful Freudian slip....[/b]
 Quote:
Dear Nina,

That was no slip--it was exactly what I wanted to say [/b]
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876653 - 06/08/03 10:04 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5480
 Quote:
Originally posted by phykell:
I'm not demanding pique should tell us who she is. What I am saying is that pique is prepared to step into a discussion and state that her opinion is supported by the fact she was an investigative journalist and she has published articles on the very subject the discussion is about. She then cannot actually provide the articles because she wants to maintain her anonymous status on the forum. A suitable analogy might be an anonymous source condemning the Government for something with the only supporting evidence being that the reporter tells the viewers/readers that the source is "reliable" or "an insider". While this sort of reporting is fine for selling newspapers or maximising viewing figures, it is unrealistic to condemn the Government for accusations that are best, just hearsay. I'm sorry, but pique is making serious allegations, that major environmental organisations are deliberately distorting and misrepresenting the truth on environmental issues. What she is saying is that they are conning the public in order to maximise donations. People here, might accept pique's opinion, based on what they know of her reputation on this forum, but I cannot.[/b]
fine, phykell. forget i ever threw the weight of my credentials behind what i posted. i retract all of that, if that is what is causing the problem.

i stand behind what i posted as a private citizen, not as a reporter. it's my judgement, based on my experience, no different than anyone else's judgment on this forum (in that it is usually based on the poster's experience).

you can take it or leave it. if you are sufficiently intrigued or perturbed, i invite you to research the subject yourself. what i posted is common knowledge among those who are environmentally sophisticated, at least in this country, so it shouldn't be too hard to verify my statements without my resorting to posting my own articles or spending my time tracking down acceptable "proof" for you.

that is, if you need more proof after reading the article i've already posted for you.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


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#876654 - 06/08/03 10:51 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
TomK stated above:
 Quote:
That's dangerously close to a complement, Toots [/b]
c-o-m-p-l-I-m-e-n-t[/b]

[/b][/QUOTE]

Ariel - Tom certainly doesn't have a monopoly on misspelling. You had four in a single post on June 7th. Please don't try to drive Tom away. I love him. I love you too, but not as much.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#876655 - 06/08/03 10:56 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5480
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
Please don't try to drive Tom away. I love him. I love you too, but not as much.[/b]
apple, ever hear of that dog-eared favorite, "smart women, foolish choices" ? \:D
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#876656 - 06/08/03 11:17 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
apple,

I know how it sounded, but it actually has NOTHING to do with spelling.

It was very complicated - ie., a quote of a quote of a quote of a quote (literally) that I was myself quoting!

I deliberately included the date and poster, so TK could check it himself hoping that he remembered the thread, and could belatedly make a connection.

But since you mention it, how about checking it for yourself in the "Sharing of Feelings" Thread (it's gone to about p. 3 of the Coffee Room now).

And that's the tip of the iceberg. For entertainment (but not very funny to me) you might also check somewhere either at the bottom of p. 2 - top of p. 3 of the "Languages thread", my recent entry (the short childhood reminiscence) in the "Passions of the Past" Thread, and - just off the top of my head - his crack after my anecdote in the "Are Males Obsolete" thread. Plus a snotty poem he wrote about me somewhere or other. Out of a clear blue sky.

I've been trying to be dignified (and it's not all that easy, believe me), but let's just say this is a little bit of arm-wrestling Internet style. I don't think he'll lay off otherwise and I'm sick of his dumping on me. I am forced to unsheath my rapier-sharp wit! \:D A woman's got to do what a woman's got to do sometimes. And this is a mighty little tit for an awful lot of big tats!

I know you're crazy about him, but I also trust you to be fair. At least check out the first reference - the one I took the quote from. And remember, I wasn't going to atribute it contextually (potentially embarrassing him to a larger audience) until now.

Ariel

P.S. Maybe then you will also understand my earlier quote here from his post. It wasn't really to Phykell. Mind you these were all private messages to him until now.
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876657 - 06/08/03 11:56 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
First of all Ariel, I challenge you in good will. I like to see people get along.

Weeks before Steinway (B phlat)was doing his anti meat thing and you were trying to help him, he was suffering from OCD under a different name and you were trying to help him then maybe 5 or 6 weeks ago in the pianist corner. Before you started posting here he was going nuts, and I mean nuts. He was unpleasant, rude, disruptive and totally dominated almost every forum thread. (pique was on hiatus) After much heated discussion, veiled legal threats, arguments among long term posters (and I am not one of them), things settled down. He has been not perfect, but is ever so much better behaved.

When he was going on and on with the anti meat thing, getting a little out of hand projecting himself just to get attention again; Tom, Larry, and Benedict tried to tell you to not enable the trolling, but you hoped to prove that you were right and that's when Tom and you started fighting. I like a good argument as long as it doesn't dominate what is supposed to be a piano[/b] forum. That's all.

I remember things. I've connected all the conversations I've been reading for weeks now.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#876658 - 06/09/03 12:22 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
apple,

I know about Steinway. I wasn't here the whole time but I got the drift from the waves he left - and I went through the archives too, understanding he had deleted a number of threads.(Remember - I made the triplicate posting of "Ignore Peter...etc." In fact you complimented me on my sleuthing).

I don't think BPhlat IS Steinway, et al. Not at all. For a number of reasons. Poor judgment, yes. Immature, yes. Steinway, no.

In fact, I think it's 100:1 more likely that TK made up the flamboyant story about his childhood (in same thread I directed you to earlier) than that Bb is S'Way. In order to suck me in. Now that IS trolling.

And even if Bb is Steinway (and I think TK has concluded he was not, by the way) and he WAS frustrated, that doesn't excuse his treatment of me. There's even more than I indicated.

Remember too - I was handling this discreetly with no public mention of his name or anything about his behavior, until now (and I wish it could have been by e-mail or in a private chatroom). I made three allusions directed at his behavior - two here - that only he would have recognized...

Compare that to frequent name-calling and ridicule of another Member, often when they're not even on the Thread...It got to the point where pretty much anytime my name came up he would say something nasty.

In fact, he tried to interfere with my striking up an on-line friendship with a Russian teen-ager (who reminded me a little of myself at her age) by swooping in and giving her a horrific warning about me. Luckily she said she had been on the Internet long enough to discount that kind of thing.

What's going on?

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876659 - 06/09/03 12:27 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5480
ariel,
nothing's going on except that tomk has an attitude. he agreed to drop it, at my and jodi's insistence, when it came to you.

can you drop this now and let it go away?

i understand why you would be upset. that's why i came to your defense. but really, i think it is over now, if you'll let it be.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


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#876660 - 06/09/03 12:33 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
I was pique. But when apple brought up the spelling, saying I was driving him away...the dam burst a little. You DO realize I had said nothing publicly embarrassing to or about him until now? It was not easy I assure you. In fact, I have a couple of juicy letters I didn't post.

But I truly do not believe he would have stopped. I felt like I was walking through the Everglades, waiting for a rattle snake to bite me every time I came on-line. The rattlesnake having a name. Not right.

Ah, and to do it in the name of having the balls to speak up when he felt he was right, "opinion be damned"! To publicly harrass somebody is courageous?

(and I do appreciate your and jodi saying something!)

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#876661 - 06/09/03 02:19 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:

(I'm enjoying the environmentalist conversation too, even tho it started out anti meat and I am personally an omnivore).[/b]
Does that mean you eat anything that comes at you from any direction?....... ;\)
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#876662 - 06/09/03 02:35 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I'm sorry, but pique is making serious allegations, that major environmental organisations are deliberately distorting and misrepresenting the truth on environmental issues. What she is saying is that they are conning the public in order to maximise donations. People here, might accept pique's opinion, based on what they know of her reputation on this forum, but I cannot. [/b]

what Pique is telling you is pretty much common knowledge. The fact that we have more forests today in the USA than we had in 1880 is common knowledge. We have more wild turkey today than existed when Miles Standish went hunting. Our forests are replenishing themselves faster than we are cutting them. Los Angeles has the cleanest air today that is has had in all of recorded history. Rivers are being cleaned up at a fast clip.

You need to stop listening to the UN and the WWF. Neither one of them know their butt from a hole in the ground. Or care, for that matter. Once you wean yourself off their propaganda, you might start finding out the facts.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#876663 - 06/09/03 05:03 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
Ariel:
I felt like I was walking through the Everglades, waiting for a rattle snake to bite me every time I came on-line.[/b]
Is that anything like walking through the desert, and waiting for a water moccasin to bite you?

\:D

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#876664 - 06/09/03 05:59 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:
a little background:

i've been an "environmentalist" in the sense that most people mean it all my life: i've lived in the wilderness for months at a time, i love nature and wildlife, i'm more at home on a mountain top than in a city.

because of my great passion for the outdoors and the natural world, i've been an investigative reporter covering the environment for nearly twenty years, and have written major public policy articles for some very heavy hitting and respected journals.

i learned very early on that you cannot trust environmental groups on their facts. i would not put a penny's worth of stock in one damn thing the world wildlife fund or any other enviro group publishes. if i had believed any of them at face value, i would have lost all credibility as a reporter because the fact checkers would have found out i didn't do my homework.

now, i don't have at hand the correct facts and figures, and i have no intention of doing the research to find them for the mere purpose of posting them here. but i can tell you that based on my twenty years of experience of writing about these issues, that i would no more trust what an enviro has to say than what a logging company or a mining company or a rancher has to say.

in fact, a lot of times, the industry groups are more honest. the enviros think they can fudge and lie because the ends justify the means: they have a just cause, so they can use questionable info to persuade people.

all they've really accomplished is to destroy their own credibility. no decent enviro reporter worth his salt would believe anything they have to say without proof.

i wrote a major essay about the ranching subsidy a few years ago. the enviros dutifully sent me all their substantiating documents to support their position that cattle grazing was harmful to the land.

do you know what i found? the peer-reviewed scientific reports that they based their anti-grazing campaigns on actually stated the opposite of what the enviros claimed they stated!!! for just one little example, the enviros claim that cattle grazing is harmful to elk, when in fact, the scientists had found that cattle grazing is beneficial for elk! quite brazen and unbelievable!!!

just to be sure, i interviewed the scientists who were the authors of the studies. i found out they were furious at how their work was being misused/abused by the enviros and were considering suing them.

so, elena, though she may not have the specific facts on hand, has the right idea and the right level of skepticism when dealing with these issues.

my urgent message to all of you who care about the planet is to take what information you receive from enviro groups with a bucket of salt, and definitely read everything with a great deal of skepticism.

on another topic:

there is not and never has been any "balance of nature." nature is not in balance and never was, that is a myth. nature operates in a boom and bust cycle, it never reaches homeostasis.

the grazing radicals who are so vicious in their goals that they'd wipe out an entire culture and livelihood state they want the range to return to it's "natural" state. well, define "natural" for me, i dare you. it doesn't exist. no one can define it.

well, then, they say, we want it to be what it was as the time of the arrival of the first white settlers.

why that period of time? why not a hundred years or a thousand years before that?

not only is that goal completely arbitrary, but it also represents a landscape that nobody would like today. the condition of the landscape at that time was one of extremes, not balance. on the great plains, there was hardly a blade of grass--the bison had completely chewed it down to nothing. and their carcasses lay rotting by the thousands in rivers. the "damage" the bison did was so severe, you can still see the mark of their wallows on the landscape today.

except it wasn't damage. the great plains vegetation co-evolved with heavy grazing. what the enviros are demanding is based on phony science. it is not and never was about the "health" of the land. it's about who gets to live here, who lives and who dies. so they demonize the ranchers, who are, by and large, good stewards of the land, and instead are happy because now the land is only used for recreation.

which, btw, scientific studies show that recreation is far more harmful to the land, overall, than logging, mining, or grazing.

but, the enviros don't want to hear anything that might throw them off the land or limit their activities. ruining other people's lives is fine, however.

[end of rant][/b]
I enjoyed this "rant" and agree with what you said completely! \:\)
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#876665 - 06/09/03 06:05 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:Phykell - your web kingdom is great! What a wonderful life and a 9 foot Steinway too! The furniture is lovely. I love these snippets of various informations that emerge in these threads. (I'm enjoying the environmentalist conversation too, even tho it started out anti meat and I am personally an omnivore).[/b]
Thanks! \:\) I really must update my site sometime as it's a long time since I did any work on it. Unforgivable really since that's the industry I'm in! As for the thread's current direction, it is interesting that it's now become a discussion about whether or not environmental organisations can be trusted or not. I wonder why?

 Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTest:
Phykell, those are some very interesting cats! ( I prefer them to dogs!) What size room do you have your piano in? Comparing with other D's you have played, even new ones, how does yours compare in terms of tone/power?[/b]
I too prefer cats but I'd love a dog as well once I have the lifestyle to suit having one. The piano is in a relatively small room, perhaps 15' by 14' and I've no doubt the sound isn't as good as it should be, but I don't intend ever changing my piano, so with luck, it will eventually be in a suitably sized room. As for tone/power, the last time I played it which was months ago (it's still away being restored), to me it sounded fantastic but there were buzzing strings and all the problems you'd associate with any piano that was in desperate need of restoration work. Having said that, it still had an incredible range compared with any other piano I've played (not that I've played a huge amount of course) and its power, though dampened by the size of the room perhaps, seemed almost limitless. I always say though, that the pianist never hears the piano the way an audience does, and when I've been lucky enough to hear other people play my piano I then realise what my piano is truly capable of. I've no doubt however, that once it's returned, I'll be amazed at how much it's improved (hopefully). Comparing mine with other Ds I've played, and I've played several immaculately prepared Hamburg Ds at Steinway Hall in London including new ones and not so new ones, the tone of mine was much duller and Steinway's collection had much more "sparkle" - TBH I didn't really exercise the power of them as I felt at the time I shouldn't go bashing out some heavy chords ;\)

 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:fine, phykell. forget i ever threw the weight of my credentials behind what i posted. i retract all of that, if that is what is causing the problem.[/b]
But that's just it. Unless you name yourself and present your credentials, then by definition you have none! I want to believe you pique, and I'm definitely not saying that I don't, it's just that I too have a healthy level of skepticism and even if I were to believe you, I can never use the information you provide to inform anyone else about "the truth" because at it's best it is just mere hearsay even if I say I trust the source, which, unless I am presented with credentials, I cannot.

 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:i stand behind what i posted as a private citizen, not as a reporter. it's my judgement, based on my experience, no different than anyone else's judgment on this forum (in that it is usually based on the poster's experience).[/b]
Now we're talking \:\) I respect your opinion and it has certainly given me food for thought. I will almost certainly view the facts and figures presented by the WWF and others, with even more skepticism than before as a direct result of this thread and I guess I must thank you and others for that OK? \:\)

 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:that is, if you need more proof after reading the article i've already posted for you.[/b]
I'll let you know after I've read it.

Can I just point out that all of this is due to the fact that I posted supposedly factual information presented by a organisation that most people would probably believe as being "above board". I still don't see anything wrong with that and I expect everyone to have a similar level of skepticism as myself. However, I think if one wishes to argue the accuracy of the data, it is probably best and more constructive to to post data from at least an equally reliable source, more than one if possible, which contradicts the data rather than merely try and discredit the source you disagree with. What I'm saying is, challenge the data, not the source. If you can contradict the data, you will also contradict the source if that's what you wish.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:what Pique is telling you is pretty much common knowledge. The fact that we have more forests today in the USA than we had in 1880 is common knowledge. We have more wild turkey today than existed when Miles Standish went hunting. Our forests are replenishing themselves faster than we are cutting them. Los Angeles has the cleanest air today that is has had in all of recorded history. Rivers are being cleaned up at a fast clip. You need to stop listening to the UN and the WWF. Neither one of them know their butt from a hole in the ground. Or care, for that matter. Once you wean yourself off their propaganda, you might start finding out the facts.[/b]
"Common knowledge" is surely just hearsay though. As for what *you* say, perhaps you're right, I don't know, but as for the UN and WWF I believe you've crossed the fine line between skepticism and cynicism ;\) I really don't think I've been "taken in" by their propaganda, but I do hope I can take something from this thread with respect to having even more skepticism that I had before. I guess if I'm honest, I'm not really surprised that some of these organisations do behave in the way that some people believe they do. Unfortunately, it seems money really does corrupt after all.

Having said all this, I'm still waiting for data to contradict the data I presented. Any takers?
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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#876666 - 06/09/03 09:57 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
An observation I made in another thread, that I still believe is pertinent:

This is the internet. As such, any have the same power to question, rebutt, fight, etc. All have the same tools at their disposal.

If Ariel wants to quibble with TomK, she's free to do so, and he is free to reciprocate. And if one of you would like to get "down in the weeds" with me, get ready to fight till Hell freezes over, and the Devil starts to lace up his ice skates.

But at the end of the day, remember, this is not real life! There are no facial expressions, or voice changes, or body language, that controls 90% of the way people talk to each other, so misunderstandings are rampant.

And don't forget why you came to this board in the first place.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#876667 - 06/09/03 10:01 AM Re: Something that really troubles me
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Which reminds me, if you go to the top of the page there is a link there that takes you to a lot of other boards where they seem to be talking about pianos (of all things). What's up with that?
_________________________
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#876668 - 06/09/03 12:35 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5480
phykell,
i'm glad i've provided some food for thought.

as for your issue with providing data to combat data, the bottom line is that you and i have different preferences when it comes to the level at which we each want to have the discussion.

i have a gag reflex at this point when it comes to providing data in my free time. i guess i'm kind of like the cobbler whose children go barefoot. ;\)

the point was never that this info is good because of who i am. (and it doesn't matter to me if you believe in my credentials or not.) the point is that the info is what i have personal knowledge of. i can't link that for you because there are no such links.

i'll try to say it another way: what i have written here is the sum of many years of research and observation from many different sources. it is a combination of verified facts AND analysis. and the analysis is my own.

since i haven't published a web site with my analysis on it, i can't link you to a web site. the only links i could provide would be other people's analysis, and then i haven't verified their facts. or, i could provide links to facts, but they would be fragments of the picture, not the whole picture, so no where would my conclusions appear.

furthermore, this is indeed time-consuming, and to repeat for the last time, it's not how i want to spend my time here.

you seem to think that a professional reporter would have all this at their fingertips. that is a misconception. i spent years researching national forest timber management. those documents are in file boxes in a shed in the back yard and at some point will probably be donated to a library. that is hardly at my fingertips, and since i've written many, many other things since then, i don't keep it all floating in my head. that is hard enough to do when i'm working on the story itself, and have to go into isolation just so nothing else will take up brain space. i'm happy to evict those facts and figures and move on to thinking about other things.

only got so much RAM, you know. ;\)

if you want to be able to repeat what i said here as fact, i'm afraid you'd have to do your own research. at least, i wouldn't repeat anything i'd read on this forum as fact unless i'd verified it for myself. you should do the same.

and larry and i are in 100 percent agreement here on what is common knowledge in the U.S. about the state of forests and wildlife. that does not make it hearsay at all. these are facts, not opinions, just like you know that water is wet, and the sky is blue.

if you want to know WHY these things could be true, that's another discussion, but relatively simple to answer, at least superficially:

when the U.S. moved from a primarily agricultural economy to an industrial economy, many farms that had been carved out of the forests during the colonial era returned to forest.

this not only provided more wildlife habitat, but also, wildlife became more and more adapted to human presence and development. there are now black bears denning under subdivisions in pennsylvania. there are peregrine falcons nesting on skyscrapers and in central park in new york. wild turkeys have indeed returned in astonishing numbers.

if you return to early records, like the journals of lewis and clark, you'll read that the indians in what is now idaho were starving because there had been a huge population crash of elk and deer. when the first trappers arrived to the great plains in what is now montana, there wasn't enough grass for their horses to eat.

there is abundant game now in idaho, and plentiful grass in eastern montana.

things are not black and white. and if you study up on this enough, what begins to dawn on you, possibly (as it did me), is that in fact man is a part of natural systems, not separate from it.

and that's a good thing. i love being in and a part of nature, and if i had to be held separate from it to "protect" it, no doubt a part of me would die....
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#876669 - 06/09/03 12:52 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5480
ariel,
try to take things a little less seriously. repeat to yourself: "it's just an internet forum. it's just an internet forum."

don't think i don't take your feelings on this seriuosly. i do. i've been there myself.

i'm just trying to provide a little perspective as a veteran of the internet wars.

remember when you were in junior high school and the kids taped notes to your back? or ripped your stockings with a pen as you walked by their desks? they were just trying to get your attention.

do you remember what, back then, was the best strategy for dealing with their cruelty?

that's right. you just held your head up and ignored them. you didn't give them the satisfaction of seeing you cry.

later, sometimes they actually became your friends. or you found out that you'd won their respect because of your classy style.

same thing works here. \:\) don't feed the beast and he'll be tamed.

(and my junior high school analogy is NOT an accident. :p )
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#876670 - 06/09/03 01:18 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
I know I'm jumping in here at page 11 without reading much of the first 10 but what the heck does the World Wrestling Federation have to do with deforestation, etc.? I thought they only polluted our airwaves. \:D

DT
who knows about the org. with the cute panda on its symbol and just had an Emily Litella moment.
Nevermind.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#876671 - 06/09/03 06:41 PM Re: Something that really troubles me
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:as for your issue with providing data to combat data, the bottom line is that you and i have different preferences when it comes to the level at which we each want to have the discussion.[/b]
It's not just you I'm asking to contradict my source's data, it's anyone. Surely if the WWF are as corrupt as has been suggested, it would be a relatively simple matter for someone, somewhere, to dig up data which contradicts theirs.

 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:and larry and i are in 100 percent agreement here on what is common knowledge in the U.S. about the state of forests and wildlife. that does not make it hearsay at all. [/b]
Two people hardly constitute a representative demographic. Nevertheless, I hope you are right, but the US is just one (admittedly large) country. There are plenty of examples all around the world.

 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:is that in fact man is a part of natural systems, not separate from it.[/b]
At the risk of going even further off-topic than having to defend my source ad nauseum...

There's always someone who'll say that because nature created man he is part of nature and hence, anything man does is therefore natural. This implies that smog, three-eyed fishes, and the extinction of species are, in effect, all perfectly natural. What use is the word if you are going to apply it in such a blanket-fashion? Surely it becomes meaningless! No, I just use it in the context of man's effect upon the planet, to differentiate artificality (i.e. man-made) from nature. So, for example, the atom bomb is unnatural, though I'm sure there's someone who will disagree, as pointless as that is...
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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