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#880619 - 04/13/05 10:39 PM The Crusaders
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/7235393

Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own image

By BOB MOSER


It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian fundamentalists have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they accomplished in last year's election -- and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of Coral Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the rafters, three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference: RECLAIMING AMERICA FOR CHRIST. These are the evangelical activists behind the nation's most effective political machine -- one that brought more than 4 million new Christian voters to the polls last November, sending George W. Bush back to the White House and thirty-two new pro-lifers to Congress. But despite their unprecedented power, fundamentalists still see themselves as a persecuted minority, waging a holy war against the godless forces of secularism. To rouse themselves, they kick off the festivities with "Soldiers of the Cross, Arise," the bloodthirstiest tune in all of Christendom: "Seize your armor, gird it on/Now the battle will be won/Soon, your enemies all slain/Crowns of glory you shall gain."
Meet the Dominionists -- biblical literalists who believe God has called them to take over the U.S. government. As the far-right wing of the evangelical movement, Dominionists are pressing an agenda that makes Newt Gingrich's Contract With America look like the Communist Manifesto. They want to rewrite schoolbooks to reflect a Christian version of American history, pack the nation's courts with judges who follow Old Testament law, post the Ten Commandments in every courthouse and make it a felony for gay men to have sex and women to have abortions. In Florida, when the courts ordered Terri Schiavo's feeding tube removed, it was the Dominionists who organized round-the-clock protests and issued a fiery call for Gov. Jeb Bush to defy the law and take Schiavo into state custody. Their ultimate goal is to plant the seeds of a "faith-based" government that will endure far longer than Bush's presidency -- all the way until Jesus comes back.

"Most people hear them talk about a 'Christian nation' and think, 'Well, that sounds like a good, moral thing,' says the Rev. Mel White, who ghostwrote Jerry Falwell's autobiography before breaking with the evangelical movement. "What they don't know -- what even most conservative Christians who voted for Bush don't know -- is that 'Christian nation' means something else entirely to these Dominionist leaders. This movement is no more about following the example of Christ than Bush's Clean Water Act is about clean water."

The godfather of the Dominionists is D. James Kennedy, the most influential evangelical you've never heard of. A former Arthur Murray dance instructor, he launched his Florida ministry in 1959, when most evangelicals still followed Billy Graham's gospel of nonpartisan soul-saving. Kennedy built Coral Ridge Ministries into a $37-million-a-year empire, with a TV-and-radio audience of 3 million, by preaching that it was time to save America -- not soul by soul but election by election. After helping found the Moral Majority in 1979, Kennedy became a five-star general in the Christian army. Bush sought his blessing before running for president -- and continues to consult top Dominionists on matters of federal policy.

"Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the cost," Kennedy says. "As the vice regents of God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every aspect and institution of human society."

At Reclaiming America, most of the conference is taken up by grassroots training sessions that supply ministers, retirees and devout churchgoers with "The Facts of Stem-Cell Research" or "Practical Steps to Impact Your Community with America's Historical Judeo-Christian Heritage." "We're going to turn you into an army of one," Gary Cass, executive director of Reclaiming America, promises activists at one workshop held in Evangalism Explosion Hall. The Dominionists also attend speeches by supporters like Rep. Katherine Harris of Florida, who urges them to "win back America for God." In their spare time, conference-goers buy books about a God-devised health program called the Maker's Diet or meet with a financial adviser who offers a "biblically sound investment plan."

To implement their sweeping agenda, the Dominionists are working to remake the federal courts in God's image. In their view, the Founding Fathers never intended to erect a barrier between politics and religion. "The First Amendment does not say there should be a separation of church and state," declares Alan Sears, president and CEO of the Alliance Defense Fund, a team of 750 attorneys trained by the Dominionists to fight abortion and gay marriage. Sears argues that the constitutional guarantee against state-sponsored religion is actually designed to "shield" the church from federal interference -- allowing Christians to take their rightful place at the head of the government. "We have a right, indeed an obligation, to govern," says David Limbaugh, brother of Rush and author of Persecution: How Liberals Are Waging War Against Christianity. Nothing gets the Dominionists to their feet faster than ringing condemnations of judicial tyranny. "Activist judges have systematically deconstructed the Constitution," roars Rick Scarborough, author of Mixing Church and State. "A God-free society is their goal!"

Activist judges, of course, are precisely what the Dominionists want. Their model is Roy Moore, the former Alabama chief justice who installed a 5,300-pound granite memorial to the Ten Commandments, complete with an open Bible carved in its top, in the state judicial building. At Reclaiming America, Roy's Rock sits out front, fresh off a tour of twenty-one states, perched on the flag-festooned flatbed of a diesel truck, a potent symbol of the "faith-based" justice the Dominionists are bent on imposing. Activists at the conference pose for photographs beside the rock and have circulated a petition urging President Bush to appoint Moore -- who once penned an opinion calling for the state to execute "practicing homosexuals" -- to the U.S. Supreme Court.

"The other side knows we've got strongholds in the executive and legislative branches," Cass tells the troops. "If we start winning the judiciary, their power base is going to be eroded."

To pack the courts with fundamentalists like Moore, Dominionist leaders are planning a massive media blitz. They're also pressuring Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist -- an ally who's courting support for his presidential bid -- to halt the long-standing use of filibusters to hold up judicial nominations. An anti-filibuster petition circulating at the conference blasts Democrats for their "outrageous stonewalling of appointments" -- even though Congress has approved more nominees of Bush than of any president since Jimmy Carter.

It helps that Dominionists have a direct line to the White House: The Rev. Richard Land, top lobbyist for the 16-million-member Southern Baptist Convention, enjoys a weekly conference call with top Bush advisers including Karl Rove. "We've got the Holy Spirit's wind at our backs!" Land declares in an arm-waving, red-faced speech. He takes particular aim at the threat posed by John Lennon, denouncing "Imagine" as a "secular anthem" that envisions a future of "clone plantations, child sacrifice, legalized polygamy and hard-core porn."

The Dominionists are also stepping up efforts to turn public schools into forums for evangelism. In a landmark case, the Alliance Defense Fund is suing a California school district that threatened to dismiss a born-again teacher who was evangelizing fifth-graders. In the conference's opening ceremony, the Dominionists recite an oath they dream of hearing in every classroom: "I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe."

Cass urges conference-goers to stack school boards with Dominionists. "The most humble Christian is more qualified for office than the best-educated pagan," says Cass, an anti-abortion activist who led a takeover of his school district's board in San Diego. "We built quite a little grass-roots machine out there. Now it's my burden to multiply that success all across America."

Cass points to the Rev. Gary Beeler, a Baptist minister from Tennessee who got permission for thousands of students to skip class and attend weeklong events that he calls "old-time revivals, with preaching and singing and soul-saving and the whole nine yards." Now, with support from Kennedy, Beeler is selling his house and buying a mobile home to spread his crusade nationwide. "It's not exactly what I planned to do with my retirement," he says. "But it's what God told me to do."

Cass also presents another small-town activist, Kevin McCoy, with a Salt and Light Award for leading a successful campaign to shut down an anti-bullying program in West Virginia schools. McCoy, a soft-spoken, prematurely gray postal worker, fought to end the program because it taught tolerance for gay people -- and thus, in his view, constituted a "thinly disguised effort to promote the homosexual agenda." "What America needs," Cass tells the faithful, "is more Kevin McCoys."

While the dominionists rely on grass-roots activists to fight their battles, they are backed by some of America's richest entrepreneurs. Amway founder Rich DeVos, a Kennedy ally who's the leading Republican contender for governor of Michigan, has tossed more than $5 million into the collection plate. Jean Case, wife of former AOL chief Steve Case -- whose fortune was made largely on sex-chat rooms -- has donated $8 million. And Tom Monaghan, founder of Domino's Pizza, is a major source of cash for Focus on the Family, a megaministry working with Kennedy to eliminate all public schools.

The one-two punch of militant activists and big money has helped make the Dominionists a force in Washington, where a growing number of congressmen owe their elections to the machine. Kennedy has also created the Center for Christian Statesmanship, which trains elected officials to "more effectively share their faith in the public arena." Speaking to the group, House Majority Whip Tom DeLay -- a winner of Kennedy's Distinguished Christian Statesman Award -- called Bush's faith-based initiatives "a great opportunity to bring God back into the public institutions of our country."

The most vivid proof of the Christianizing of Capitol Hill comes at the final session of Reclaiming America. Rep. Walter Jones, a lanky congressman from North Carolina, gives a fire-and-brimstone speech that would have gotten him laughed out of Washington thirty years ago. In today's climate, however, he's got a chance of passing his pet project, the Houses of Worship Free Speech Restoration Act, which would permit ministers to endorse political candidates from their pulpits, effectively converting their tax-exempt churches into Republican campaign headquarters.

"America is under assault!" Jones thunders as his aides dash around the sanctuary snapping PR photos. "Everyone in America has the right to speak freely, except for those standing in the pulpits of our churches!" The amen chorus reaches a fever pitch. Hands fly heavenward. It's one thing to hear such words from Dominionist leaders -- but to this crowd, there's nothing more thrilling than getting the gospel from a U.S. congressman. "You cannot have a strong nation that does not follow God," Jones preaches, working up to a climactic, passionate plea for a biblical republic. "God, please -- God, please -- God, please -- save America!"

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#880620 - 04/14/05 05:59 AM Re: The Crusaders
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I have a question:

We now have moderators. Why are you moderators spending time deleting posts by sincere, proven posters, yet the village idiot who calls himself Yapababoon is still being allowed to litter the forum with his crap?

Get this fool off the forum. He is offensive, and he is not here because he wants to be a contributing member of the community. Wake up and do your job.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#880621 - 04/14/05 06:11 AM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
Ah, I understand now. Posting articles from Rolling Stone is offensive, but posting articles from the National Review makes you a valued contributor to the messageboard.

There's nothing like intellectual consistency.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#880622 - 04/14/05 06:28 AM Re: The Crusaders
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Put your bruised ego away sQuirt, and be a man for Gob's sakes.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#880623 - 04/14/05 06:33 AM Re: The Crusaders
jon-nyc Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2022
Loc: the left bank -- of the east r...
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
Ah, I understand now. Posting articles from Rolling Stone is offensive, but posting articles from the National Review makes you a valued contributor to the messageboard.
[/b]
Duh! You've been posting here since 2004 and you're just now figuring this out?
_________________________
If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?

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#880624 - 04/14/05 06:39 AM Re: The Crusaders
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
So you two bed wetting liberals can understand - neither the topic nor the source have anything to do with it. It is the intent in which it was posted in the first place. Yapababoon is a troll. Trolls should be removed. That is one of the main functions of moderators. We now have moderators. They need to do their job.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#880625 - 04/14/05 06:47 AM Re: The Crusaders
jon-nyc Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2022
Loc: the left bank -- of the east r...
Larry - why are you always so quick to call people names? It reflects poorly on you, in my opinion.
_________________________
If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?

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#880626 - 04/14/05 06:51 AM Re: The Crusaders
Brendan Offline


Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5289
Loc: McAllen, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
So you two bed wetting liberals can understand - neither the topic nor the source have anything to do with it. It is the intent in which it was posted in the first place. Yapababoon is a troll. Trolls should be removed. That is one of the main functions of moderators. We now have moderators. They need to do their job. [/b]
http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/topic/1/10181.html
_________________________
http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

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#880627 - 04/14/05 06:55 AM Re: The Crusaders
Teal'c Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 34
 Quote:
Originally posted by jon-nyc:
It reflects poorly on you[/b]
Because it reflects the truth. \:\)

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#880628 - 04/14/05 07:20 AM Re: The Crusaders
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Hmmm. I found myself thinking that this was one of yhap's more lucid posts... Yes, it's provocative but that's because of the content of the article.

I don't think yhap's motives in posting it are any less "pure" than the motives of those who post a lot of articles on this forum. Let's face it, a lot of things are posted here whose sole purpose is to push an agenda or say, "so there!"

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#880629 - 04/14/05 07:22 AM Re: The Crusaders
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Put your bruised ego away sQuirt, and be a man for Gob's sakes. [/b]
Yes, Quirt...BE A MAN...and STOP WETTING YOUR BED while you are at it!

Come on Larry, lighten up....


jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#880630 - 04/14/05 07:24 AM Re: The Crusaders
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I have to disagree with Larry on this one. Let yab*whatever* post his drivel. It only serves to highlight his ignorance and bigotry. I appreciate being able to read what the people of planet Zongo actually think even though I find it mostly mystifying why they think it.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#880631 - 04/14/05 07:26 AM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
 Quote:
It is the intent in which it was posted in the first place. Yapababoon is a troll. Trolls should be removed. That is one of the main functions of moderators. We now have moderators. They need to do their job.
And why is Yhabpo a troll? Because the PianoWeasel says he is! Quod erat demonstratum!

And how do we know what the moderators' job is? Why, we need look no farther than the PianoWeasel! He'll tell us ... because, as he has demonstrated, he's eminently qualified to be a moderator, he is, after all, so danged moderate.

 Quote:
Put your bruised ego away sQuirt, and be a man for Gob's sakes.
Sorry, but the PianoWeasel is incapable of bruising my ego. Maybe you can bruise a pear, go work on that for a while.

 Quote:
you two bed wetting liberals
Ah, now that's the PianoWeasel we all know so well, the one that never resorts to name-calling. Check back through the thread, PianoWeasel, and see who started the name-calling first. I challenged you on intellectual consistency, but you of course raised the bar to a whole 'nuther level.

And I haven't wet the bed in at least six months. ;\) Further thoughts on that subject have been self-moderated.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#880632 - 04/14/05 08:20 AM Re: The Crusaders
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
So much for rising above it :rolleyes:
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#880633 - 04/14/05 08:20 AM Re: The Crusaders
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
[QUOTE]
And I haven't wet the bed in at least six months. ;\) Further thoughts on that subject have been self-moderated. [/b]
thank you for sparing us the details.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#880634 - 04/14/05 09:06 AM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
I never said I rise above it. In fact, I have an unfortunate tendency to sink to the level of the opposition. It's a personal failing.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#880635 - 04/14/05 09:49 AM Re: The Crusaders
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
I don't think yhabpo is a troll. I don't think his post warrants any action.

K

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#880636 - 04/14/05 09:56 AM Re: The Crusaders
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
Larry,

I like you man. I always have. I respect you and even enjoy most of your straightforward sometimes brutal commentary. I agree with you more than I disagree but I do disagree from time to time.

I took this post as moderator and from the very first moment that I applied for the job all I could think about was following yhabpo around deleting all of his trollish posts. I have yet to do that because I realized that the role of moderator carries a heavy responsibility and burden. The burden of tempering one's own opinion (not getting rid of it mind you!) to evaluate posts and make a call with as much objectivity as is possible.

I am also amazed at yhabpo's longevity of participation here. Especially given the constant bashing from the likes of you, me, and others.

I do not agree with most everything he posts but he is entitled to his opinion.

This is not a trollish post. This is not an obscene post. He posted an article just as all of us have done. You do not agree with the contents of that article and that is fine but it does not justify the deletion of the post.
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Visit us at:
The Piano World Practice Club

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#880637 - 04/14/05 10:10 AM Re: The Crusaders
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
good post Mark, and words for all of us to remember.

Larry, I understand your frustration. You are opinionated, but are also capable of discussing things that you have in common with others.
Yahpbo seems to post solely to upset certain people, and certain ideas.
I see your point that in one thread someone can really get upset at intolerance and bigotry, but in another thread someone is protected under "free speech".
In the end though, I agree with Mark.
We must be the bigger men.
I see the same inconsistencies that you do, but we are not willie-nillie sissy boys Larry! We're gun-totin conservative MinuteMen! We're the people that have ALWAYS carried this country, and will in the future, to protect the rights of the sissies.
Buckup soldier!
You're tougher than that!
Let him spew his ignorance and intolerance.
Laugh at it!
and let the moderators concentrate on truly disheartening subjects like people kissing in public.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#880638 - 04/14/05 10:44 AM Re: The Crusaders
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
 Quote:
"and let the moderators concentrate on truly disheartening subjects like people kissing in public."
Oh KB that was brutal!

-
Mark
Anti-Sex League Commandant. ;\)

p.s. remember I am reading 1984 for the first time here!
_________________________
Visit us at:
The Piano World Practice Club

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#880639 - 04/14/05 10:54 AM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Larry, I used to get quite upset over yahbdoodoo posts. Not anymore. Personally, I think the guy's an idiot. But, then he probably thinks I'm... well... who knows or cares what he/she thinks about me. I'm sure the thoughts aren't pleasant but then he/she probably thinks they're so superior to me they don't have time for thoughts of me.

Anyhow, as much as I have a hard time sometimes with your sometimes brutal posts I *thoroughly* enjoy when you get brutal with yhabdoodoo. Unless it's unhealthy for you I say GO FOR IT!!! This guy's fair game.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#880640 - 04/14/05 10:57 AM Re: The Crusaders
NAK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
Larry, I used to get quite upset over yahbdoodoo posts. Not anymore. Personally, I think the guy's an idiot. But, then he probably thinks I'm... well... who knows or cares what he/she thinks about me. I'm sure the thoughts aren't pleasant but then he/she probably thinks they're so superior to me they don't have time for thoughts of me.

Anyhow, as much as I have a hard time sometimes with your sometimes brutal posts I *thoroughly* enjoy when you get brutal with yhabdoodoo. Unless it's unhealthy for you I say GO FOR IT!!! This guy's fair game. [/b]
Ahahahahahahhaa!!! I was thinking the exact same thing.

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#880641 - 04/14/05 11:16 AM Re: The Crusaders
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
yhapbo's posts are insensitive.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#880642 - 04/14/05 11:37 AM Re: The Crusaders
fizzygirl Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 614
Loc: Minnesnowta
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
I used to get quite upset over yahbdoodoo posts. Not anymore. Personally, I think the guy's an idiot. But, then he probably thinks I'm... well... who knows or cares what he/she thinks about me. I'm sure the thoughts aren't pleasant but then he/she probably thinks they're so superior to me they don't have time for thoughts of me.

Anyhow, as much as I have a hard time sometimes with your sometimes brutal posts I *thoroughly* enjoy when you get brutal with yhabdoodoo. Unless it's unhealthy for you I say GO FOR IT!!! This guy's fair game. [/b]
Eloquently put Justme!

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#880643 - 04/14/05 11:53 AM Re: The Crusaders
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
yhapbo's posts are insensitive. [/b]
Strangely, that is one of the things I like about them! \:D
_________________________
Visit us at:
The Piano World Practice Club

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#880644 - 04/14/05 11:55 AM Re: The Crusaders
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
Larry, I used to get quite upset over yahbdoodoo posts. Not anymore. Personally, I think the guy's an idiot. But, then he probably thinks I'm... well... who knows or cares what he/she thinks about me. I'm sure the thoughts aren't pleasant but then he/she probably thinks they're so superior to me they don't have time for thoughts of me.

Anyhow, as much as I have a hard time sometimes with your sometimes brutal posts I *thoroughly* enjoy when you get brutal with yhabdoodoo. Unless it's unhealthy for you I say GO FOR IT!!! This guy's fair game. [/b]
You're most brilliant post ever Justme... Way to go.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#880645 - 04/14/05 11:56 AM Re: The Crusaders
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
You and me both. In retrospect, I didn't need to add anything to this thread. Whether yhabpo is a troll or merely a bombthrower, he's sitting back and watching a a potential p*ssing contest ensue. Whether I agree with the original post of not, I don't like that type of poster.

 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
I never said I rise above it. In fact, I have an unfortunate tendency to sink to the level of the opposition. It's a personal failing. [/b]
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#880646 - 04/14/05 11:58 AM Re: The Crusaders
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
count me in the same camp...

I often fall for it, and recognize it too late.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#880647 - 04/14/05 12:02 PM Re: The Crusaders
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Yhapbo is from a different culture. For us, it is an opportunity to learn another viewpoint - one we may not always agree with.

I've learned a lot from folks here - sometimes changing or refining an opinion I've had - or at least better understanding one I disagree with.

For the Christian's here, Yhapbo should represent an opportunity to demonstrate one's faith.

Yes, Yhapbo has offended people here - particularly thinking of the Gryphon thread with his son.

At the same time, I remember what happened with Benedict - where he'd say something like "some folks in Europe think" - and he'd be blasted to high heaven even if it weren't his opinion. After a while, Benedict was less inclined to bother trying to explain to us how others might view us - because if he did, it was immediately assumed that these were his views and he'd be required to defend them and be beaten for them. Even by the coffee room standards, I didn't regard this as a great presentation of what the US is all about.

Words are better than alternatives. Like others here Yhapbo has some passions - that sometimes get in the way of being heard, but I think he's had some reasonable posts amidst the passionate ones.

K

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#880648 - 04/14/05 12:11 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
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Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Ken, you're a better person than I am. As you know I try to see good in everyone. But, this guy seems to ask for it.
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#880649 - 04/14/05 12:16 PM Re: The Crusaders
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
yhapbo's posts are insensitive. [/b]
HAHAHAHA! \:D Now THAT'S funny!!!! Actually, this whole thread is pretty funny. [Sputter, sputter. Dang commies, postin' from that there subversive degenerate sm~t rag]

I personally like YP's posts. They *are* provocative (but not in a base way)and they do get people thinking. It's also quite amusing to watch Larry react to them. ;\)

I don't think YP has even ever stooped to calling Larry a name (no small feat, as I can attest having been on Larry's bash list since my earliest postings here).

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#880650 - 04/14/05 12:21 PM Re: The Crusaders
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
As I wrote in March yhabpo = Y[/b]oung H[/b]umiliated A[/b]nd B[/b]itter P[/b]olitical O[/b]utcast

That yhabpo is from another culture is irrelevant. What is relevant is the extent to which yhabpo outwardly appears to despise open democracy along with the culture and values of the country in which yhabpo resides.

Yelstin had his own yhabpo when he was President of Russia. That yhabpo was called Vladimir Zhirinovsky. Rather than persecuting Zhirinovsky, Yeltsin made certain that Vlad got lot's of press and TV media coverage. As a result Zhirinovsky's mass appeal dropped from over 35% in 1994 to a mere 7% by 1996. It stays pretty much between 5% - 7% to this day.
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#880651 - 04/14/05 12:22 PM Re: The Crusaders
Mr. E Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 426
Can we vote him off the "island" Survivor-style?

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#880652 - 04/14/05 12:26 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
A. Yabbadabbadoo is a troll. I doubt he hails from a different culture. He just enjoys yanking chains.

B. He most definitely is a waste of bandwidth.

C. Quirt, I think I'm fixin' to get one of us thrown outta here, 'cuz I've 'bout had enough. If you'd like to jab everytime someone appears, perhaps what is good for the goose, is good for the gander.

I think I've worked up a good enough mad, and you are a worthy opponent.

Shall the games begin?
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#880653 - 04/14/05 12:27 PM Re: The Crusaders
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
Ken, you're a better person than I am. As you know I try to see good in everyone. But, this guy seems to ask for it. [/b]
He represents a distinct minority of participants on this board. He says (and I'd like to believe) that he is from a different culture.

I love when people agree with me on things - but I can learn from when people disagree.

I've told Yhabpo that I thought that sometimes he did his viewpoint a disservice by offending people - but I don't think is conduct is unique.

K

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#880654 - 04/14/05 12:31 PM Re: The Crusaders
Eusebius Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 725
Loc: Maryland
I'm sympathetic toward yhapbo, but I'd like to see him defend himself. (i.e. not just sit back and watch the arguments centered around him.)
_________________________
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#880655 - 04/14/05 12:39 PM Re: The Crusaders
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Jeez, I'm surprised. We don't like yhapbo. We think he doesn't "defend" himself. He posts stuff that bug us.

LET'S GET HIM!!!

Lord of the flies, here we come.

Grow up, people! This is an internet forum, not your own personal Fight Night.

I'm equally surprised and disappointed that some of the moderators think that cheering on the "get him" mentality is appropriate.

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#880656 - 04/14/05 12:39 PM Re: The Crusaders
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
I think he's probably a troll, too, just because there have been too many inconsistencies in the few personal snippets he has shared about himself and the innuendo one would naturally read into the nature of his posts. I wish he were real, and would let us know more about himself. I wish we had someone on this board who was *really* from an Islamic country. We had Wacky for awhile, but during his brief foray he wasn't political. I hope he reappears. We had another mideast quy, briefly (anyone remember his name?), who I'm guessing was also a troll, and wasn't nearly as provocative as YP. And, now YP, who seems to be very keen on the goings on in Iraq, and has used the term infidel here, and decries feminism and women's suffrage, claimed to be resident of Canada and a mideast country but who denies being Muslim.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he took on his ascerbic quality here until he had been repeatedly attacked personally for the political content of his posts.

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#880657 - 04/14/05 12:43 PM Re: The Crusaders
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
I wouldn't say that I'm personally sympathetic (I don't think sympathy is the right word, as he hasn't incurred anything unjustly... I'm sympathetic of Toby the Rabbit).

But I agree with Ken that Yhabpo should be able to post pretty much what it wants to... I fell most people should be afforded that.

I too (while I might not act like it) think more can be learned from other people and other cultures. And yes, some here are too quick to fly off the handle sometimes.

I don't want censorship or banning.
But in return I'd like posting with thought.
We can all copy/paste article after article, but that gets boring after awhile.
I don't feel like I know what yhabpo really thinks, I just feel like he posts jabs at things he doesn't like.

Tell me what you do like, let's discourse. Let's learn from each other...
I'm game if you are.
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#880658 - 04/14/05 12:44 PM Re: The Crusaders
Eusebius Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 725
Loc: Maryland
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nina:
Jeez, I'm surprised. We don't like yhapbo. We think he doesn't "defend" himself. He posts stuff that bug us.

LET'S GET HIM!!!

Lord of the flies, here we come.

Grow up, people! This is an internet forum, not your own personal Fight Night.

I'm equally surprised and disappointed that some of the moderators think that cheering on the "get him" mentality is appropriate. [/b]
I'm not at all bothered by what he posts (in fact, I've found many of the articles very intriguing), and I certainly don't wan't to "get him" lord of the flies-style. Still, I want to see him defend himself, post more--give us reason to believe he's not a troll.
_________________________
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#880659 - 04/14/05 01:04 PM Re: The Crusaders
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nina:

I'm equally surprised and disappointed that some of the moderators think that cheering on the "get him" mentality is appropriate. [/b]
you know what - that is not fair. I am still me.

If it is, than I quit... moderate your own dam forum
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#880660 - 04/14/05 01:11 PM Re: The Crusaders
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
I do not feel threatened. There is no need for me to defend myself.

What I feel is disgust. You sick monsters have caused me enough grief through your governments atrocities. I dare try to shine a ray of truth upon the squabbling mass and they react to it as a minor irritation, going about in their blank activities.

I was foolish to think that the American people were not evil. I wished that they were, too, the victim of their administration. This forum has proved the opposite. The people living within are murderous and hateful, their abhorrence equalling or even surpassing their tax-funded soldiers. Some Americans claim to agree with me, yet they still pay taxes, making them a hypocrite.

Anyhow, I will continue my probably futile attempt to convince some of patrons here. Some people here have proven to be a pleasant surprise.

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#880661 - 04/14/05 01:12 PM Re: The Crusaders
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
"This movement is no more about following the example of Christ than Bush's Clean Water Act is about clean water."
Amen!

These people are genuine bona fide loonies. They want to eliminate secularism from the US government, destroy all governmental programs like social security, medicare, and medicaid, repeal Roe vs. Wade, force schools to teach their brand of religion, and stack the courts with their likes. Of course, then they won't be called activist judges because they will act at their bidding. ;\)

IMHO, they are extremely dangerous. Funny thing is, I don't think most Americans realize just how dangerous.

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#880662 - 04/14/05 01:19 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:


I was foolish to think that the American people were not evil. I wished that they were, too, the victim of their administration. This forum has proved the opposite. The people living within are murderous and hateful, their abhorrence equalling or even surpassing their tax-funded soldiers. Some Americans claim to agree with me, yet they still pay taxes, making them a hypocrite.
[/b]
Nope. Can't find any good here. Tried. Looked real hard, too. Yep, we're real *evil* for wanting to go after this sicko.
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#880663 - 04/14/05 01:21 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Apple*, please, stay with it.
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#880664 - 04/14/05 01:25 PM Re: The Crusaders
ycul Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 1402
Loc: U.K.
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
Larry, I used to get quite upset over yahbdoodoo posts. Not anymore. Personally, I think the guy's an idiot. But, then he probably thinks I'm... well... who knows or cares what he/she thinks about me. I'm sure the thoughts aren't pleasant but then he/she probably thinks they're so superior to me they don't have time for thoughts of me.

Anyhow, as much as I have a hard time sometimes with your sometimes brutal posts I *thoroughly* enjoy when you get brutal with yhabdoodoo. Unless it's unhealthy for you I say GO FOR IT!!! This guy's fair game. [/b]
You're most brilliant post ever Justme... Way to go. [/b]
With all due respect apple, this doesn't imply an ability to be able to put your personal feelings to one side - a pre-requisite for the job of moderator.

I hope I'm wrong and I'm willing to be corrected.

I enjoy Yhabpo's posts and the responses to them.
Please let's not have a repeat of the Wacky - is he or isn't he a troll? - type of hysteria we had a few months back.
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#880665 - 04/14/05 01:31 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by ycul:

Please let's not have a repeat of the Wacky - is he or isn't he a troll? - type of hysteria we had a few months back. [/b]
lucy, if I remember correctly Wacky wasn't trying to be deliberately inciteful. This guy is. See above post. I don't think anyone should be banned. Sockpuppets and trolls can be ignored. This guy clearly means to offend people. Some of us feel we should have the right to fight back and clearly Larry is our best weapon.
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#880666 - 04/14/05 01:33 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
I do not feel threatened. There is no need for me to defend myself.

What I feel is disgust. You sick monsters have caused me enough grief through your governments atrocities. I dare try to shine a ray of truth upon the squabbling mass and they react to it as a minor irritation, going about in their blank activities.

I was foolish to think that the American people were not evil. I wished that they were, too, the victim of their administration. This forum has proved the opposite. The people living within are murderous and hateful, their abhorrence equalling or even surpassing their tax-funded soldiers. Some Americans claim to agree with me, yet they still pay taxes, making them a hypocrite.

Anyhow, I will continue my probably futile attempt to convince some of patrons here. Some people here have proven to be a pleasant surprise. [/b]
Save a SUV, shoot an Arab.

Ya know, I could get into this "monster" stuff.....
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#880667 - 04/14/05 01:36 PM Re: The Crusaders
Eusebius Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/03
Posts: 725
Loc: Maryland
Careful Jolly...RZ may be keeping a tally of those allusions to violence. ;\)
_________________________
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#880668 - 04/14/05 01:39 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Eusebius:
Careful Jolly...RZ may be keeping a tally on those allusions to violence. ;\) [/b]
It's actually a play off of a country music song title, "Save a horse, ride a cowboy", but that one didn't quite fit here.....
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#880669 - 04/14/05 01:42 PM Re: The Crusaders
ycul Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 1402
Loc: U.K.
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
 Quote:
Originally posted by ycul:

Please let's not have a repeat of the Wacky - is he or isn't he a troll? - type of hysteria we had a few months back. [/b]
lucy, if I remember correctly Wacky wasn't trying to be deliberately inciteful. This guy is. See above post. I don't think anyone should be banned. Sockpuppets and trolls can be ignored. This guy clearly means to offend people. Some of us feel we should have the right to fight back and clearly Larry is our best weapon. [/b]
Peggy, I think Wacky *was* trying to be inciteful but probably not using quite the same technique as Yhab.
I like his posts and find they illuminate many issues for me either through his opinions, his sources or - and probably most importantly - the counter-arguments he provokes from posters of the opposite political persuasion. *That's* why I think he's an important poster to have around.
I can ignore his bile. That's *his* problem. \:\)
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#880670 - 04/14/05 01:43 PM Re: The Crusaders
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:


I was foolish to think that the American people were not evil. I wished that they were, too, the victim of their administration. This forum has proved the opposite. The people living within are murderous and hateful, their abhorrence equalling or even surpassing their tax-funded soldiers. Some Americans claim to agree with me, yet they still pay taxes, making them a hypocrite.
[/b]
Nope. Can't find any good here. Tried. Looked real hard, too. Yep, we're real *evil* for wanting to go after this sicko. [/b]
How long did it take for inhabitants of the US South to get over the Civil War? Did the enmity last 10 years? 20? 100? Still?

Can you imagine what enmity would have arisen if a foreign power had directly put troops onto US soil to aid either side? Would there be more or less enmity towards that government?

Europe, the UN and the US - all have toyed with the Middle East - carved it up, imposed or dethroned local governments.

Is the expectation that there will be no enmity in return? Everyone meant well in the civil war as well. (Heck, I still think the South had a more compelling and more righteous case - that state's and their inhabitants should have a fair amount of self-determination.)

It would seem that we have higher expectations of others than we do of ourselves.

All Yhapbo is saying is that there are plenty of apologists for this administration on these forums. If he sees our government as pursuing "evil" purposes, then these apologists are supportive of that "evil." One doesn't have to agree to understand his point.

You and I have supported the notion that people should tolerate (welcome) Larry's gruff style. Why should it be different for Yhapbo?

K

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#880671 - 04/14/05 01:46 PM Re: The Crusaders
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
To the point of the original article:

There isn't a politically active person anywhere in this country, of any philosophical viewpoint, that isn't actively trying to "remake America in their own image." Frankly, that's the point of all political activity. What puzzles me about the situation being written about isn't that Christians are trying to shape the country in a way that they want. What is far more puzzling, and troubling, to me is the hypocrisy shown by people who think that that's wrong, or that it's any different from what they themselves are actively trying to do.

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#880672 - 04/14/05 01:46 PM Re: The Crusaders
big al Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 183
Loc: Mars, PA
Apparently, the Rolling Stone article that started this fight got very much under some peoples skin. Re-reading it made me wonder why. Do they not want us to consider the possibility that the United States could become a larger version of the Massachusetts colony as governed by the Puritans. If the separation of church and state that has existed in this country since its founding is breached, where do those who disagree with the majority go? There's no Rhode Island or Pennsylvania readily available to flee the tyranny.

Big Al

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#880673 - 04/14/05 01:55 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:
You and I have supported the notion that people should tolerate (welcome) Larry's gruff style. Why should it be different for Yhapbo?

K [/b]
Ken, I find it very hard to appreciate anything about Yhapbo. I have tolerated Yhapbo and have said I would not like to see him banned. He has a perfect right to say what he would like. My post to Larry was to infer that. I have a difficult time arguing with Yhapbo simply because not only doesn't he take me seriously, he has absolutely no respect for me. He has illustrated that in the past. He considers me and my ilk as mere nothings. Therefore, I welcome Larry to go after him. I can't fight him but Larry can. He understands Larry and for some sick reason prefers that form of argument. He seems to actually welcome it.

I have friends who are Middle-Eastern. My animosity toward Yhapbo is not racially motivated, at all. I almost married an Iranian back in the late 70s when an inter-racial marriage would not have been at all welcomed. His family's problem not mine. Please, do not think that this is a racist issue on my part. I would love to find a solution in the Middle-East. But, when people like myself are called *evil* I don't see it happening anytime soon.
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#880674 - 04/14/05 02:05 PM Re: The Crusaders
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
I have many close arab friends (I've even learned to uvulate!).
I don't know any of them who voluntarily came to this country and speak the way yhabpo does. His opinion is accepted, and tolerated. But that does not mean that it hold equal value to every other opinion. Sorry, I'm no Egalitarian.

Has Yhabpo told us who and where he is yet? Is he middle-eastern? Persian? Arab? What? Who?

He seems to be here obviously to cause strife.
Fine.
But let's call it what it is.

It isn't insightful or provocative...
He[/b] may be, but we haven't seen him yet. The articles he copy/pastes are not for the most part.
It's fine that he doesn't reveal anything about himself personally... but then how can you expect to be taken seriously?
You can't expect to be a "regular poster" who is "taken seriously" and even considered "provocative" if you never let anybody know who you are.
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#880675 - 04/14/05 02:16 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by big al:
Apparently, the Rolling Stone article that started this fight got very much under some peoples skin. Re-reading it made me wonder why. Do they not want us to consider the possibility that the United States could become a larger version of the Massachusetts colony as governed by the Puritans. If the separation of church and state that has existed in this country since its founding is breached, where do those who disagree with the majority go? There's no Rhode Island or Pennsylvania readily available to flee the tyranny.

Big Al [/b]
DING! DING! DING!

Wrong, at least in some aspects.

The early history of this country is ignored by many, but church services were routinely held in the same building that Congress met in. Nobody found anything wrong with it at the time. And Jefferson was more than happy to prop his feet up, and listen to the sermon.

The Constitution gives us freedom of, not freedom from, religion. It is inconceivable that people's belief systems do not dictate their personal, and moral behavior.

We currently have many secular humanists trying to implement their vision of the world, as the law of the land. Why is it allowable for them to do so, and verbotten for the conservative Christian?

Politics is politics. If I can muster the votes, and stay within the bounds of the Constitution, look out folks, 'cuz here I come...
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#880676 - 04/14/05 02:20 PM Re: The Crusaders
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
I have a difficult time arguing with Yhapbo simply because not only doesn't he take me seriously, he has absolutely no respect for me. He has illustrated that in the past.
You are confused, and have exaggerated my words. I merely stated that males and females are vastly biologically unequal, and that society should optimize the distribution of roles by acknowledging this inequality. I have never said I have no respect for you. There are tasks in which you have an inherit advantage, and the same applies to me.

People have slowly wandered into inefficiency, being subjected to the fake opium that liberty leads to ultimate happiness.

 Quote:
Has Yhabpo told us who and where he is yet?
If I was a "fake" I would have told a lie to circumvent the label long ago.

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#880677 - 04/14/05 02:28 PM Re: The Crusaders
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
[QUOTE]
[qb] He considers me and my ilk as mere nothings. Therefore, I welcome Larry to go after him. I can't fight him but Larry can. He understands Larry and for some sick reason prefers that form of argument. He seems to actually welcome it.

I have friends who are Middle-Eastern. My animosity toward Yhapbo is not racially motivated, at all. I almost married an Iranian back in the late 70s when an inter-racial marriage would not have been at all welcomed. His family's problem not mine. Please, do not think that this is a racist issue on my part. I would love to find a solution in the Middle-East. But, when people like myself are called *evil* I don't see it happening anytime soon. [/b]
I don't think it is racist at all.

I think Yhabpo has trouble being heard because of his passion - and he uses terms of derision - but so what? It may help to dismiss him - just as "winger" or "lefty" cause people to dismiss the person who uses those terms.

A good lesson for us all.

Imagine being taken from your home where you'd just had dinner with those who were closest to you...you were found guilty on trumped up charges, tortured and executed. Could you forgive those who did all of this to you.

Could you love them?

That's the standard for Christians.

For much of the early history of the church people were crucified for no other reason than they dedicated themselves to Christ's teachings. They forgave their persecutors. They appreciated that they were given the opportunity to demonstrate their commitment to their Lord.

Now the standard is that if someone calls us a name, we demand retribution - and further want someone else to provide the retribution?

From Christ's standpoint, maybe things were better in the olden days.

Yhabpo's words are but a gentle breeze. Listen, if you will, ignore or try and understand. But to silence seems wrong.

Ken

Edit: I think some of the most horrendous things in history have come about from people not understanding one another. I would hope that in an age in which we can all communicate more easily and directly through the internet - that perhaps that will change...for the better, that is \:\)

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#880678 - 04/14/05 02:32 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
You are confused, and have exaggerated my words. I merely stated that males and females are vastly biologically unequal, and that society should optimize the distribution of roles by acknowledging this inequality. I have never said I have no respect for you. There are tasks in which you have an inherit advantage, and the same applies to me.

[/b]
You have never said you have no respect for me but sometimes your actions imply it. Or, maybe, I'm over sensitive. If you say you respect me I'll take your word on it. Do you? I would welcome the opportunity to respect each other. And hope that I have only misinterpreted some of what you are saying.
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#880679 - 04/14/05 02:39 PM Re: The Crusaders
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
Because I am unfamiliar with your opinions, I don't wish to rashly claim that I have respect for you. However, I will repeat that I do not discriminate by gender, but only by actions and opinions in conformity with gender.

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#880680 - 04/14/05 02:44 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
Because I am unfamiliar with your opinions, I don't wish to rashly claim that I have respect for you. However, I will repeat that I do not discriminate by gender, but only by actions and opinions in conformity with gender. [/b]
It *seems* women's views are less important to you than men's views. Correct me if I'm wrong, please. That IMHO would be a sign of disrespect.
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#880681 - 04/14/05 02:53 PM Re: The Crusaders
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
You are confused, and have exaggerated my words. I merely stated that males and females are vastly biologically unequal, and that society should optimize the distribution of roles by acknowledging this inequality. [/b]
Like the ability to vote and govern? Please enlighten us as to what roles should be filled by what sex.
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#880682 - 04/14/05 02:55 PM Re: The Crusaders
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:

What I feel is disgust. You sick monsters have caused me enough grief through your governments atrocities. I dare try to shine a ray of truth upon the squabbling mass and they react to it as a minor irritation, going about in their blank activities.

I was foolish to think that the American people were not evil. I wished that they were, too, the victim of their administration. This forum has proved the opposite. The people living within are murderous and hateful, their abhorrence equalling or even surpassing their tax-funded soldiers. Some Americans claim to agree with me, yet they still pay taxes, making them a hypocrite.
[/b]
Let me translate:

"You Yanqui dogs are sons of snakes and the progeny of sheep (and not good looking ones either!) You have been raised by wild dogs and have the souls of flies.

May Allah (who I don't believe in,) smite you and your children into the ground to the tenth generation. May leaches suck on your eye balls and may you get only virgins and no soccer moms when you die!"

Personally, I don't mind Yhabo. When I make a joke about him he stays "joked" rather than try to make some sort of unfunny comeback (as so many Liberals do. \:\( ) I don't mind something funny, but it's gotta hit.

Best of all, he doesn't cry when someone doesn't agree with his goat eye eating lifestyle.

By the way, Whacky was one of the better ones for a good comeback.

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#880683 - 04/14/05 02:56 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Imagine being taken from your home where you'd just had dinner with those who were closest to you...you were found guilty on trumped up charges, tortured and executed. Could you forgive those who did all of this to you.

Could you love them?

That's the standard for Christians.
A tourist once asked a cabbie what the standard tip was, here in the big city.

The cabbie replied, "Ten bucks is standard".

When the man handed over the $10, the cabbie shouted with glee!

"What's the matter", asked the anxious tourist. "I gave you the standard tip!"

'No problem", replied the cabbie. "It's just that nobody has ever come up to the standard before"...


With that small insight, perhaps we can explain my "nuke 'em 'till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark" philosophy.
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#880684 - 04/14/05 02:57 PM Re: The Crusaders
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
[QUOTE]

People have slowly wandered into inefficiency, being subjected to the fake opium that liberty leads to ultimate happiness.

[/b]
That statement tells me that the author does not like or feel comfortable with a society or culture that is directed by and caters to middle class values. The author could subscribe to any number of closed systems ranging anywhere from Maoism to Peronism to Franco style Fascism. I personally think it is more like iconoclasm for the sole purpose of creating indignation in the hall. We should be happy that we live in societies that can withstand having their sacred cows shown the abbatoir now and then.
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#880685 - 04/14/05 03:00 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
That statement tells me that the author does not like or feel comfortable with a society or culture that is directed by and caters to middle class values. The author could subscribe to any number of closed systems ranging anywhere from Maoism to Peronism to Franco style Fascism. I personally think it is more like iconoclasm for the sole purpose of creating indignation in the hall. We should be happy that we live in societies that can withstand having their sacred cows shown the abbatoir now and then. [/b]
Please, translate, Renauda. Sorry.
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#880686 - 04/14/05 03:07 PM Re: The Crusaders
Renauda Offline
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Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
yhabpo likes to poke fun at us.
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#880687 - 04/14/05 03:14 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
yhabpo likes to poke fun at us. [/b]
tell me something I don't know!!!
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#880688 - 04/14/05 03:14 PM Re: The Crusaders
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
It's about time.

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#880689 - 04/14/05 03:14 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
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Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
it's about space.
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#880690 - 04/14/05 03:16 PM Re: The Crusaders
Renauda Offline
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Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Its about Quantum chaos!
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#880691 - 04/14/05 03:17 PM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
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Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"If you'd like to jab everytime someone appears, perhaps what is good for the goose, is good for the gander."

Jab away, Jolly. It won't bother me a bit.

"I think I've worked up a good enough mad, and you are a worthy opponent."

I appreciate your calling me a worthy opponent, although I'm not sure that, on further reflection, you'd decide that you meant it.

I'm confident that, if we were to meet in real life, I wouldn't like you, and you wouldn't like me. I have an abhorrence for many of the views you hold, and I'm sure you feel the same way about me. I don't respect how you came to hold those views, and I'm sure you feel the same way about me. I think you're mean-spirited and that your actions on this messageboard don't follow the principles of Jesus that you say are the basis for your moral beliefs, and I'm sure you think something equally vile about me.

Nevertheless, I've never claimed that you were unethical. I don't remember ever accusing you of lying, and I certainly don't think that you're a pathological liar. Although I find them perverse, I do think that you have principles, and that you'd adhere to them, even to your disadvantage.

And that, in my opinion, is what separates you from Larry.

Whether you think so or not, I don't follow Larry around and dispute every post of his. If he says something that I think is true, I either agree, or I leave it alone. However, if he says something I disagree with, I disagree. I may even do so sarcastically. But I've promised myself that I'm not going to resort to name-calling in any particular thread until he throws the first bomb. I do have a fixation about his dishonesty, and I have every intention of continuing to point it out when it happens.

If you've worked up a good enough mad, and you want to chase me around like a terrier nipping at my ankles, be my guest. (Warning: sarcasm approaching!) I'm sure that's what Jesus would have done in similar circumstances.
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#880692 - 04/14/05 03:20 PM Re: The Crusaders
Renauda Offline
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Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
May be I should have written Quirtum chaos.
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#880693 - 04/14/05 03:24 PM Re: The Crusaders
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"I'm confident that, if we were to meet in real life, I wouldn't like you, and you wouldn't like me. [/b]
I'm not so sure. It's dubious that you 2 would instantly know all of your ideological baggage. Jolly's a quite knowledgeable guy - caring and generous. Under different circumstances, it might take a while before you even ventured into the territory that folks slug one another with every day.

And if you had some mutual respect and understanding before you got into these discussions, they might be a lot less heated - or at least with more gentle jabs than go on when you can't see the person as you push for the electric shock.

No, in another place, you folks might become the best of friends before you knew any better.

K

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#880694 - 04/14/05 03:28 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
May be I should have written Quirtum chaos. [/b]
To quote Kenny "indeed".
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#880695 - 04/14/05 04:01 PM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"No, in another place, you folks might become the best of friends before you knew any better."

Based on what he says about lawyers, that's doubtful. Even if our ideological baggage weren't immediately obvious, you do tend to learn someone's profession fairly early on.
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#880696 - 04/14/05 04:04 PM Re: The Crusaders
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
I like Quirt. \:\)

I gave him crap and he gave it back as good (well almost as good, ;\) ) as he got.

I respect that. \:\)

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#880697 - 04/14/05 04:08 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
I was foolish to think that the American people were not evil. I wished that they were, too, the victim of their administration. This forum has proved the opposite. The people living within are murderous and hateful, their abhorrence equalling or even surpassing their tax-funded soldiers. Some Americans claim to agree with me, yet they still pay taxes, making them a hypocrite.
[/b]
Wait a minute Yahoo, Americans come in many flavors. You paint your insults with a broad brush. I, like others here, was about to say something supportive.

Forget it.

jf
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#880698 - 04/14/05 04:15 PM Re: The Crusaders
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
Four pages on this drivel. Four pages.
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#880699 - 04/14/05 04:15 PM Re: The Crusaders
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
 Quote:
Imagine being taken from your home where you'd just had dinner with those who were closest to you...you were found guilty on trumped up charges, tortured and executed. Could you forgive those who did all of this to you.

Could you love them?

That's the standard for Christians.
A tourist once asked a cabbie what the standard tip was, here in the big city.

The cabbie replied, "Ten bucks is standard".

When the man handed over the $10, the cabbie shouted with glee!

"What's the matter", asked the anxious tourist. "I gave you the standard tip!"

'No problem", replied the cabbie. "It's just that nobody has ever come up to the standard before"...


With that small insight, perhaps we can explain my "nuke 'em 'till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark" philosophy. [/b]
Sucker! :p "Ownership" society in action. Standard (aka as mediocre, is par for the course. Keep shootin. Maybe, just maybe, the US of A will upgrade its standing in the world from # 7 to #1, contrary to what the right would have us believe. Look at the stats! We are not # 1 in any category. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Hey. Don't get me wrong, this is a great country, with unlimited potential for people who have the will and potential (money, infulence, intellect) to progress beyond their wildest dreams.

But ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. Our's is a bit soupy.

If you want to get right down to the nitty gritty, we are not number one. We are not even close. Not surprising, most Americans don't know trhis.

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#880700 - 04/14/05 04:16 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
If you've worked up a good enough mad, and you want to chase me around like a terrier nipping at my ankles, be my guest. (Warning: sarcasm approaching!) I'm sure that's what Jesus would have done in similar circumstances. [/b]
Jolly, that IS exactly something you have done in the past with others at your worst.

jf, who has also seen Jolly at his best.
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#880701 - 04/14/05 04:21 PM Re: The Crusaders
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I've often wondered why it is that someone is almost invariably at his best when he's agreeing with me...

;\)

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#880702 - 04/14/05 06:09 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
If we are going to ban yby because the stuff he posts is offensive, and he sometimes says ridiculous stuff just to get a reaction, then there are a lot of other people who ought to go first. I say yby stays. And this is from someone yby thinks is a racist psychopath for my views on Israel.

His views are no more offensive than many other long-time posters here, and sometimes he makes good points, or posts interesting articles. Remember, folks, no one forces you to read or respond to his or anyone else's posts. If yby acts like a troll I will ignore him, if he posts on a real topic I want to talk about I will respond. Simple enough.

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#880703 - 04/14/05 06:10 PM Re: The Crusaders
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:


His views are no more offensive than many other long-time posters here, and sometimes he makes good points, or posts interesting articles. Remember, folks, no one forces you to read or respond to his or anyone else's posts. If yby acts like a troll I will ignore him, if he posts on a real topic I want to talk about I will respond. Simple enough. [/b]
I can agree with that.
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#880704 - 04/14/05 06:12 PM Re: The Crusaders
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Whoever Yhap is, you gotta admit, the guy is brilliant for getting as much flapdoodle up in this forum as he has done.

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#880705 - 04/14/05 06:46 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
If you've worked up a good enough mad, and you want to chase me around like a terrier nipping at my ankles, be my guest. (Warning: sarcasm approaching!) I'm sure that's what Jesus would have done in similar circumstances. [/b]
Jolly, that IS exactly something you have done in the past with others at your worst.

jf, who has also seen Jolly at his best. [/b]
Actually, JF, I respect you, in spite of your profession. ;\)

Nah...I've been countin'....that's 4x Dear Squirt has slammed Larry with little, or no provocation, and I find that a bit mean spirited. I actually think Larry's pulling his punches a bit, as compared with previous episodes around here.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that a man should rise above his raising, but I'm about to the point where sQuirt needs a come to Jesus moment.

And if it takes a mite of jabbin' to make him get his head out of his rectal orifice, I hope I remember how to wield a sharp rhetorical stick...
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#880706 - 04/15/05 01:55 PM Re: The Crusaders
big al Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/29/02
Posts: 183
Loc: Mars, PA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:

The Constitution gives us freedom of, not freedom from, religion. It is inconceivable that people's belief systems do not dictate their personal, and moral behavior.

We currently have many secular humanists trying to implement their vision of the world, as the law of the land. Why is it allowable for them to do so, and verbotten for the conservative Christian?

Politics is politics. If I can muster the votes, and stay within the bounds of the Constitution, look out folks, 'cuz here I come... [/QB]
Jolly, I vehemently disagree with first statement. The first amendment proscribes the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. This is freedom of for those who wish it and freedom from for those of such persuasion. 200 plus years of judicial examination have set some pretty clear boundaries, but people being the clever, conniving creatures they are, still want to test those boundaries in various directions.

As regards the second statement, it is only forbidden to attempt to implement your vision of the world if it contravenes the law of the land. I think you acknowledge this in the following paragraph. Even the U.S. Constitution is subject to change by amendment.

What I am suggesting is that based on my understanding of history and societies where the church held political sway, I much prefer the situation that has prevailed in this country. I am no lover of big government and I would love big government in the hands of any religion even less. The many statements of intolerance that I hear professed only serve to solidify that opinion.

Big Al

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#880707 - 04/15/05 02:48 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
The Founding Fathers did not wish a "Church of America", as the Anglican Church was in England. Therefore, the exclusion clause has nothing to do with protecting you from the influence of religion in politics.

It does give you the right to worship God as you see fit, or to not worship at all.

I'm a fan of Scalia's interpretation of the Constitution, and feel that we have twisted it to our peril.....
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#880708 - 04/15/05 04:05 PM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"that's 4x Dear Squirt has slammed Larry with little, or no provocation, and I find that a bit mean spirited."

I don't believe that's true. But if you do, show me the four posts where I "slammed" him, and I'll try to show you the provocation.

"I actually think Larry's pulling his punches a bit, as compared with previous episodes around here."

Over the past couple of days, that's certainly been the case. However, Larry's history is similar to that of Krakatoa; periods of quiet punctuated by large-scale eruptions.

I hope you don't find that to be "slamming" Larry, because I think that's just his posting history, and those eruptions could be viewed positively or negatively, depending on your point of view.

"I'm about to the point where sQuirt needs a come to Jesus moment."

As I've said before, if you've got your mad on, and it will make you feel better, go for it. I'm not that worried, and I'm not that sensitive. Whether I come to Jesus is between me and Jesus, and ultimately has nothing to do with you.

"The Founding Fathers did not wish a "Church of America", as the Anglican Church was in England. Therefore, the exclusion clause has nothing to do with protecting you from the influence of religion in politics."

I disagree with this one, too. This country was founded by people who refused to follow religious orthodoxy, and were chased from England because of it. It seems absurd that they would want to replace a version of religious orthodoxy that they found unliveable with a somewhat broader, but equally noxious, form of religious orthodoxy.
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#880709 - 04/15/05 05:14 PM Re: The Crusaders
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Wait Quirt, let's not confuse Orthodoxy with Anglican! \:\)
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#880710 - 04/15/05 06:06 PM Re: The Crusaders
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
Can you use the quote feature, QuirtEvans? That would make your posts easier to read.

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#880711 - 04/15/05 06:11 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
1. I stand by my statements.

2. it is obvious that quirt has never had a "come to Jesus" momement, as he is utterly unaware of what it is.

3. If I am not mistaken, you took Constitutional Law. Does not that include review of the Federalist Papers, and current letters of the time? If not, how does one square what the original intent of the document is supposed to be?
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#880712 - 04/15/05 06:13 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Actually, I'd like to refocus the thread back on yby's original post. Larry derailed it to a discussion of whether yby was a troll.

"Christian evangelicals are plotting to remake America in their own image

By BOB MOSER


It's February, and 900 of America's staunchest Christian fundamentalists have gathered in Fort Lauderdale to look back on what they accomplished in last year's election -- and to plan what's next. As they assemble in the vast sanctuary of Coral Ridge Presbyterian, with all fifty state flags dangling from the rafters, three stadium-size video screens flash the name of the conference: RECLAIMING AMERICA FOR CHRIST. These are the evangelical activists behind the nation's most effective political machine -- one that brought more than 4 million new Christian voters to the polls last November, sending George W. Bush back to the White House and thirty-two new pro-lifers to Congress. But despite their unprecedented power, fundamentalists still see themselves as a persecuted minority, waging a holy war against the godless forces of secularism. To rouse themselves, they kick off the festivities with "Soldiers of the Cross, Arise," the bloodthirstiest tune in all of Christendom: "Seize your armor, gird it on/Now the battle will be won/Soon, your enemies all slain/Crowns of glory you shall gain."
Meet the Dominionists -- biblical literalists who believe God has called them to take over the U.S. government. As the far-right wing of the evangelical movement, Dominionists are pressing an agenda that makes Newt Gingrich's Contract With America look like the Communist Manifesto. They want to rewrite schoolbooks to reflect a Christian version of American history, pack the nation's courts with judges who follow Old Testament law, post the Ten Commandments in every courthouse and make it a felony for gay men to have sex and women to have abortions. In Florida, when the courts ordered Terri Schiavo's feeding tube removed, it was the Dominionists who organized round-the-clock protests and issued a fiery call for Gov. Jeb Bush to defy the law and take Schiavo into state custody. Their ultimate goal is to plant the seeds of a "faith-based" government that will endure far longer than Bush's presidency -- all the way until Jesus comes back.

"Most people hear them talk about a 'Christian nation' and think, 'Well, that sounds like a good, moral thing,' says the Rev. Mel White, who ghostwrote Jerry Falwell's autobiography before breaking with the evangelical movement. "What they don't know -- what even most conservative Christians who voted for Bush don't know -- is that 'Christian nation' means something else entirely to these Dominionist leaders. This movement is no more about following the example of Christ than Bush's Clean Water Act is about clean water."

The godfather of the Dominionists is D. James Kennedy, the most influential evangelical you've never heard of. A former Arthur Murray dance instructor, he launched his Florida ministry in 1959, when most evangelicals still followed Billy Graham's gospel of nonpartisan soul-saving. Kennedy built Coral Ridge Ministries into a $37-million-a-year empire, with a TV-and-radio audience of 3 million, by preaching that it was time to save America -- not soul by soul but election by election. After helping found the Moral Majority in 1979, Kennedy became a five-star general in the Christian army. Bush sought his blessing before running for president -- and continues to consult top Dominionists on matters of federal policy.

"Our job is to reclaim America for Christ, whatever the cost," Kennedy says. "As the vice regents of God, we are to exercise godly dominion and influence over our neighborhoods, our schools, our government, our literature and arts, our sports arenas, our entertainment media, our news media, our scientific endeavors -- in short, over every aspect and institution of human society."

At Reclaiming America, most of the conference is taken up by grassroots training sessions that supply ministers, retirees and devout churchgoers with "The Facts of Stem-Cell Research" or "Practical Steps to Impact Your Community with America's Historical Judeo-Christian Heritage." "We're going to turn you into an army of one," Gary Cass, executive director of Reclaiming America, promises activists at one workshop held in Evangalism Explosion Hall. The Dominionists also attend speeches by supporters like Rep. Katherine Harris of Florida, who urges them to "win back America for God." In their spare time, conference-goers buy books about a God-devised health program called the Maker's Diet or meet with a financial adviser who offers a "biblically sound investment plan."

To implement their sweeping agenda, the Dominionists are working to remake the federal courts in God's image. In their view, the Founding Fathers never intended to erect a barrier between politics and religion. "The First Amendment does not say there should be a separation of church and state," declares Alan Sears, president and CEO of the Alliance Defense Fund, a team of 750 attorneys trained by the Dominionists to fight abortion and gay marriage. Sears argues that the constitutional guarantee against state-sponsored religion is actually designed to "shield" the church from federal interference -- allowing Christians to take their rightful place at the head of the government. "We have a right, indeed an obligation, to govern," says David Limbaugh, brother of Rush and author of Persecution: How Liberals Are Waging War Against Christianity. Nothing gets the Dominionists to their feet faster than ringing condemnations of judicial tyranny. "Activist judges have systematically deconstructed the Constitution," roars Rick Scarborough, author of Mixing Church and State. "A God-free society is their goal!"

Activist judges, of course, are precisely what the Dominionists want. Their model is Roy Moore, the former Alabama chief justice who installed a 5,300-pound granite memorial to the Ten Commandments, complete with an open Bible carved in its top, in the state judicial building. At Reclaiming America, Roy's Rock sits out front, fresh off a tour of twenty-one states, perched on the flag-festooned flatbed of a diesel truck, a potent symbol of the "faith-based" justice the Dominionists are bent on imposing. Activists at the conference pose for photographs beside the rock and have circulated a petition urging President Bush to appoint Moore -- who once penned an opinion calling for the state to execute "practicing homosexuals" -- to the U.S. Supreme Court.

"The other side knows we've got strongholds in the executive and legislative branches," Cass tells the troops. "If we start winning the judiciary, their power base is going to be eroded."

To pack the courts with fundamentalists like Moore, Dominionist leaders are planning a massive media blitz. They're also pressuring Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist -- an ally who's courting support for his presidential bid -- to halt the long-standing use of filibusters to hold up judicial nominations. An anti-filibuster petition circulating at the conference blasts Democrats for their "outrageous stonewalling of appointments" -- even though Congress has approved more nominees of Bush than of any president since Jimmy Carter.

It helps that Dominionists have a direct line to the White House: The Rev. Richard Land, top lobbyist for the 16-million-member Southern Baptist Convention, enjoys a weekly conference call with top Bush advisers including Karl Rove. "We've got the Holy Spirit's wind at our backs!" Land declares in an arm-waving, red-faced speech. He takes particular aim at the threat posed by John Lennon, denouncing "Imagine" as a "secular anthem" that envisions a future of "clone plantations, child sacrifice, legalized polygamy and hard-core porn."

The Dominionists are also stepping up efforts to turn public schools into forums for evangelism. In a landmark case, the Alliance Defense Fund is suing a California school district that threatened to dismiss a born-again teacher who was evangelizing fifth-graders. In the conference's opening ceremony, the Dominionists recite an oath they dream of hearing in every classroom: "I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe."

Cass urges conference-goers to stack school boards with Dominionists. "The most humble Christian is more qualified for office than the best-educated pagan," says Cass, an anti-abortion activist who led a takeover of his school district's board in San Diego. "We built quite a little grass-roots machine out there. Now it's my burden to multiply that success all across America."

Cass points to the Rev. Gary Beeler, a Baptist minister from Tennessee who got permission for thousands of students to skip class and attend weeklong events that he calls "old-time revivals, with preaching and singing and soul-saving and the whole nine yards." Now, with support from Kennedy, Beeler is selling his house and buying a mobile home to spread his crusade nationwide. "It's not exactly what I planned to do with my retirement," he says. "But it's what God told me to do."

Cass also presents another small-town activist, Kevin McCoy, with a Salt and Light Award for leading a successful campaign to shut down an anti-bullying program in West Virginia schools. McCoy, a soft-spoken, prematurely gray postal worker, fought to end the program because it taught tolerance for gay people -- and thus, in his view, constituted a "thinly disguised effort to promote the homosexual agenda." "What America needs," Cass tells the faithful, "is more Kevin McCoys."

While the dominionists rely on grass-roots activists to fight their battles, they are backed by some of America's richest entrepreneurs. Amway founder Rich DeVos, a Kennedy ally who's the leading Republican contender for governor of Michigan, has tossed more than $5 million into the collection plate. Jean Case, wife of former AOL chief Steve Case -- whose fortune was made largely on sex-chat rooms -- has donated $8 million. And Tom Monaghan, founder of Domino's Pizza, is a major source of cash for Focus on the Family, a megaministry working with Kennedy to eliminate all public schools.

The one-two punch of militant activists and big money has helped make the Dominionists a force in Washington, where a growing number of congressmen owe their elections to the machine. Kennedy has also created the Center for Christian Statesmanship, which trains elected officials to "more effectively share their faith in the public arena." Speaking to the group, House Majority Whip Tom DeLay -- a winner of Kennedy's Distinguished Christian Statesman Award -- called Bush's faith-based initiatives "a great opportunity to bring God back into the public institutions of our country."

The most vivid proof of the Christianizing of Capitol Hill comes at the final session of Reclaiming America. Rep. Walter Jones, a lanky congressman from North Carolina, gives a fire-and-brimstone speech that would have gotten him laughed out of Washington thirty years ago. In today's climate, however, he's got a chance of passing his pet project, the Houses of Worship Free Speech Restoration Act, which would permit ministers to endorse political candidates from their pulpits, effectively converting their tax-exempt churches into Republican campaign headquarters.

"America is under assault!" Jones thunders as his aides dash around the sanctuary snapping PR photos. "Everyone in America has the right to speak freely, except for those standing in the pulpits of our churches!" The amen chorus reaches a fever pitch. Hands fly heavenward. It's one thing to hear such words from Dominionist leaders -- but to this crowd, there's nothing more thrilling than getting the gospel from a U.S. congressman. "You cannot have a strong nation that does not follow God," Jones preaches, working up to a climactic, passionate plea for a biblical republic. "God, please -- God, please -- God, please -- save America!"

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#880713 - 04/15/05 06:17 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
I'm evangelical, and I vote.

You got something against that?
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#880714 - 04/15/05 06:20 PM Re: The Crusaders
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
If your relgious convictions clouds your judgment, then yes.

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#880715 - 04/15/05 08:05 PM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"I stand by my statements."

And I'll ask again, where are those four examples where I slammed Larry before he started flaming or namecalling? Stand by whatever you like, but I'd like to see the proof on this one. Otherwise, you're making unsupported accusations without giving me a chance to defend myself. Is that the kind of person you are?

"it is obvious that quirt has never had a "come to Jesus" momement, as he is utterly unaware of what it is."

It depends on whether you mean it literally, or figuratively. But, in either case, you really have no idea whether I have or have not had such a moment.

"If I am not mistaken, you took Constitutional Law. Does not that include review of the Federalist Papers, and current letters of the time?"

Actually, no, it doesn't. Law school is not about teaching specific answers to specific issues. Law school is more about teaching basic principles and how to think about legal questions, when they come up. You can't possibly answer every conceivable question during a one-semester course, so you teach law students how to analyze the issue themselves. Sort of along the lines of "give a man a fish, and he eats for a day; teach him to fish, and he eats for a lifetime."

I'm sure that dismays you. But that's the way it's been, for as long as I am aware, in most of the law schools in the land. Including during that period that you keep referring to, when lawyers were in higher public repute.

As for how you go about figuring out "original intent", on that point, I will direct you to Justice Scalia. Justice Scalia does not believe in using legislative history to discern the meaning of laws. His view is that, if it was relevant, it would have been put into the text; if it's not in the text, it has little if any relevance. Therefore, he has said that a judge should rely almost exclusively on the words themselves, and not on what anyone said at the time about what the words were intended to mean.

Since he's almost certainly going to be the next Chief Justice, you might want to consider that.
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#880716 - 04/15/05 09:51 PM Re: The Crusaders
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by bcarey:
 Quote:
"This movement is no more about following the example of Christ than Bush's Clean Water Act is about clean water."
Amen!

These people are genuine bona fide loonies. They want to eliminate secularism from the US government, destroy all governmental programs like social security, medicare, and medicaid, repeal Roe vs. Wade, force schools to teach their brand of religion, and stack the courts with their likes. Of course, then they won't be called activist judges because they will act at their bidding. ;\)

IMHO, they are extremely dangerous. Funny thing is, I don't think most Americans realize just how dangerous. [/b]
I agree about their danger. I thyink they are VERY dangerous.

I found the article very thought provoking and scary -- especially when one juxtoposes it with the power of people like Tom Delay and their desire to seek retribution against judges who hold up the law instead of their personal morality.

Need anything more be said about how these people want to remake the US in their own image?

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#880717 - 04/15/05 10:02 PM Re: The Crusaders
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Save a SUV, shoot an Arab.
[/b]
Followed by...

 Quote:
Originally posted by Eusebius:
Careful Jolly...RZ may be keeping a tally of those allusions to violence. ;\) [/b]
And not long afterwards came...

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
[QUOTE] With that small insight, perhaps we can explain my "nuke 'em 'till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark" philosophy. [/b]
One need not tally them. They come too often one would lose track. And they offend every time.

There was a discussion a day or so ago about Bernard's picture of his innocent kiss of Preston on the cheek and how it was offensive to some.

Why is an innocent expression of affection offensive to so many and Jolly's constant thoughts of killing and maiming people considered acceptable?

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#880718 - 04/16/05 03:28 AM Re: The Crusaders
jon-nyc Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2022
Loc: the left bank -- of the east r...
 Quote:
from the original article
"Jean Case, wife of former AOL chief Steve Case -- whose fortune was made largely on sex-chat rooms -- has donated $8 million. "
[/b]


Steve Case's wife? Is Steve Case a bible thumper? Anyone know?

that might explain why he was oil-and-water with the tw folks, if so.
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#880719 - 04/16/05 06:39 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Jolly: "I'm evangelical, and I vote.

You got something against that?"

That's an odd response to the article. Did you read it? Here is a sample quote: "In the conference's opening ceremony, the Dominionists recite an oath they dream of hearing in every classroom: "I pledge allegiance to the Christian flag, and to the Savior for whose kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen and coming again, with life and liberty for all who believe."

If your comment indicated that you support this, then yes, I have a problem with it. Did it? It is not our system of government, it is not what has made the US a successful nation. We do not live by majority rule, but by a system of laws and freedoms, whereby even democratic majorities cannot override the rights of minorities. Do you have a problem with that?

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#880720 - 04/16/05 07:47 PM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
de Tocqueville described it as the "tyranny of the majority", when the majority uses its majority power to abuse the minority.

Our Founding Fathers were trying to avoid that sort of tyranny. I guess if someone had read the Federalist Papers, they'd know that.

Edit: And yes, I know that de Tocqueville was born after our Constitution was adopted. The concept was already there, even if de Tocqueville's description of it was not.
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#880721 - 04/16/05 09:10 PM Re: The Crusaders
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
We do not live by majority rule, but by a system of laws and freedoms, whereby even democratic majorities cannot override the rights of minorities. Do you have a problem with that? [/b]
Do you?
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#880722 - 04/17/05 04:42 AM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by RZ:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Save a SUV, shoot an Arab.
[/b]
Followed by...

 Quote:
Originally posted by Eusebius:
Careful Jolly...RZ may be keeping a tally of those allusions to violence. ;\) [/b]
And not long afterwards came...

 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
[QUOTE] With that small insight, perhaps we can explain my "nuke 'em 'till they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark" philosophy. [/b]
One need not tally them. They come too often one would lose track. And they offend every time.

There was a discussion a day or so ago about Bernard's picture of his innocent kiss of Preston on the cheek and how it was offensive to some.

Why is an innocent expression of affection offensive to so many and Jolly's constant thoughts of killing and maiming people considered acceptable? [/b]
You missed the best one...I wrote the one about shooting the family running out of the burning building, and decapitating the family pet, just for you.

Some folks just don't appreciate effort....
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#880723 - 04/17/05 05:08 AM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
de Tocqueville described it as the "tyranny of the majority", when the majority uses its majority power to abuse the minority.

Our Founding Fathers were trying to avoid that sort of tyranny. I guess if someone had read the Federalist Papers, they'd know that.

Edit: And yes, I know that de Tocqueville was born after our Constitution was adopted. The concept was already there, even if de Tocqueville's description of it was not. [/b]
A couple of points...

1. Yep, I do like Scalia. I think he has the best intellect on the court today, and I believe he recognizes the proper Constitutional authority of the court. It has been his bent to not stick his nose into places where it does not belong, and to write forcefully in places where it does.

You twist his interpretation of the Constitution, however. He is an "original intent" proponent, and I don't see how the Federalist Papers contradict that stance, since that is why they were written - to explain the Constitution to the populance.

2. The framers never meant to institute the tyranny of the minority , either. We live in a republic, a representative democracy[/b] . While that means our representatives have the power to negate public sentiment at the moment, it does not[/b] mean they have immunity from the ballot box.

If the majority can be sustained, the desired political effect can be accomplished within the bounds of the Constitution. Therefore, one man, one vote.

Any group, except for some strange reason those that have a conservative religious nature in your opinion, are free to exercise their Franchise as they see fit, and to elect those people most agreeable with their view of the world.

Well, I'm sorry folks, but evangelicals vote, as do conservative Catholics, or conservative Muslims, or the growing number of conservative Jews.

And while this country is in no danger of becoming a theocracy, a little God wouldn't hurt a bunch of y'all.

Hopefully, it'll scare the Hell out of you.

Literally.
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#880724 - 04/17/05 05:51 AM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"You twist his interpretation of the Constitution, however. He is an "original intent" proponent, and I don't see how the Federalist Papers contradict that stance, since that is why they were written - to explain the Constitution to the populance."

Spoken like someone who hasn't read much of what Scalia has written. I'd be willing to bet heaps of money that I've read more of Scalia's writings than you have.

As for whether Scalia would believe in using the Federalist Papers to interpret the Constitution -- he doesn't believe in legislative intent. Original intent is just another form of legislative intent. If it's inappropriate to look at what legislators might have said outside the four corners of the laws they wrote when interpreting those laws (and that is Scalia's oft-repeated view), how then is it proper to look at what the writers of the Constitution might have said outside the four corners of that document?

Here's a clue -- intellectual consistency is your friend.
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#880725 - 04/17/05 06:48 AM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
You may have rerad more of Scalia's stuff, I'll not argue that point.

However, the point that the Framer's explanations of the Constitution is the same as modern legislative intent is ludicrous.
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#880726 - 04/17/05 10:22 AM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"However, the point that the Framer's explanations of the Constitution is the same as modern legislative intent is ludicrous."

Now, that's powerful, persuasive analysis. With cogent and incisive thinking like that, the rest of us should just fold up our tents and go home.

Or perhaps you might try to explain why one kind of legislative history is different than the other, with something more than one-word adjectives.
_________________________
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#880727 - 04/17/05 11:57 AM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"However, the point that the Framer's explanations of the Constitution is the same as modern legislative intent is ludicrous."

Now, that's powerful, persuasive analysis. With cogent and incisive thinking like that, the rest of us should just fold up our tents and go home.

Or perhaps you might try to explain why one kind of legislative history is different than the other, with something more than one-word adjectives. [/b]
The very essence of the worst of legaldom, is a verbosity that passes all understanding.

I prefer to be understood.

I said exactly what I meant, it's not rocket science. You're a big boy, figure it out...
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#880728 - 04/17/05 12:08 PM Re: The Crusaders
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
You may have rerad more of Scalia's stuff, I'll not argue that point.

However, the point that the Framer's explanations of the Constitution is the same as modern legislative intent is ludicrous. [/b]
As I understand it, the Courts look to legislative intent when they are asked to intepret legislation, not when they are asked to determine the constitutionality of legislation.

If they are asked to rule on the consitutionality of legislation, they often go to the Framers intent and also go to how that intent has been interpreted by Courts through the history of thr country.

I see no discrepancy between the Court's attempt to understand legislative intent and the Court's attempt to understand the intent of the writers of the Constitution because each is used for different purposes.

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#880729 - 04/17/05 01:10 PM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"I said exactly what I meant, it's not rocket science. You're a big boy, figure it out..."

You said one word, ludicrous. The rest of the sentence was simply setting out the parameters of what was ludicrous.

Your inability to put more than one word to the thought suggests that you may not have a more sophisticated analysis or thought process on this subject.

On the other hand, your belief that one-word adjectival analysis is actually analysis explains an awful lot. For example, it does put some color on why Louisiana has some of the worst overall schools and worst overall test scores in the country.
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#880730 - 04/17/05 01:24 PM Re: The Crusaders
G. Murdaugh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 235
Loc: Springfield, MO
Quirt, your a dick, simple enough for ya?
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#880731 - 04/17/05 01:29 PM Re: The Crusaders
G. Murdaugh Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/04
Posts: 235
Loc: Springfield, MO
I better get out of here before I get the sh** kicked out of me, you guys in the coffee room play tough.
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#880732 - 04/17/05 01:32 PM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"Quirt, your a dick, simple enough for ya?"

That would be "you're".
_________________________
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#880733 - 04/17/05 02:06 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"Quirt, your a dick, simple enough for ya?"

That would be "you're". [/b]
Look at the bright side....Viagra will help you grow ...taller.
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#880734 - 04/17/05 02:39 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
On the other hand, your belief that one-word adjectival analysis is actually analysis explains an awful lot. For example, it does put some color on why Louisiana has some of the worst overall schools and worst overall test scores in the country.
Absolutely.

It's a funny state...some of the worst schools in the country are in New Orleans, yet MCLNO is probably the oldest indigent healthcare facility in the nation. Shreveport gave you Johhny Cochran, and some of the most cutting edge opthamology work in the world. I know Jerry Lee's family well enough to know cousin Mickey changed the way his name is pronounced when he left town, the same little one-horse stop that produced Howard K Smith.

We can lay claim to quite a few jazz legends, a piano doctor or two, zydeco, chankety-chank, Saturday morning at Fred's in Grand Mamou, and you can still hear the blue tones of a hollow-body Gibson if you saunter past the right delta honkey-tonk on Saturday night.

It's a place where a kid with a "B" average in high school will go to any state university, tuition free.

The average Louisana cook can turn out better food by accident, than you can on purpose. And we produce more professional athletes per capita than anywhere else in the United States.

Not to mention that politics is a spectator sport down here, simply because we have the best politicians money can buy...funny, most of those snakes are attorneys..gee, I wonder...nah, can't be...as Jimmy Durante used to say, "It must be a ko-winky dink", huh?

Now, that probably doesn't explain our poor school system, but maybe it does explain why if you are born in this state, you are more likely to die in this state than anywhere else in the union, because even if we roam, we always dream of coming back home. We are what we are, and proud of it - warts and all.

I'm just a product of it, public schools, and private schools, and the fellow that taught me to be brief was schooled at Oxford. It doesn't take a lot of words, if you know what you want to say. And while I may not be the smartest man in the world, I'm an old-timey country boy that recognizes a cow pattie when he sees it.

I'll try not to step on you....
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#880735 - 04/17/05 03:43 PM Re: The Crusaders
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
"I'm an old-timey country boy that recognizes a cow pattie when he sees it."

It's not hard for you to recognize it, when so much of it comes out of your own mouth.

But at least we know now that, for you, a one-word adjective passes for analysis. That's really all we need to know about your deep thinking.
_________________________
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#880736 - 04/17/05 08:08 PM Re: The Crusaders
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by QuirtEvans:
"I'm an old-timey country boy that recognizes a cow pattie when he sees it."

It's not hard for you to recognize it, when so much of it comes out of your own mouth.

But at least we know now that, for you, a one-word adjective passes for analysis. That's really all we need to know about your deep thinking. [/b]
Do you wiggle your ears, and stick your tongue out with those eloquent statements?

Or was that not part of moot court?
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