for what i know, baby grand comes smaller in size, where it's less than 6 feet (correct me if i wrong) where normal grand is more than 6 feet. then, baby grand produce smaller dynamics? or?
can anyone let me know about the difference between these 2 as my teacher advises me not to get a baby grand.
anymore significant differences between them? touch, tone etc..

There's no strict definition of "baby grand." Generally, the longer the piano, the richer and more complex the tone will be, particularly in the bass section, which will also be more powerful.

Larry Fine considers "small" pianos to be less than 5'6". He points out that very small grands tend to be made for budget-conscious consumers, so that in addition to the limitations inherent in the design (string length, soundboard size, etc.), makers of very small grands tend to use cheaper materials and manufacturing techniques. While there are some high-quality pianos in the 5'2" to 5'6" range, virtually every piano shorter 5'1" would fit that description.

I agree with your teacher. I have a baby grand, 5'1" and the differences are SIGNIFICANT. The baby grand has a very small sound, and will produce just that...a "baby" sound. The piano is severely limited in dynamics, range and tonal qualities. The bass has absolutely no power or "authority", it is flat. You will not get a bell-like or crystalline treble. And I don't care what manufacturer the piano is made from. No amount of tuning or voicing will change the attributes....trust me, been there done that.

I am in the process of replacing my own piano with a 6 or to 7 ft. Now, these size grands are great, they can give you a close enough approximation of the dynamics and tonal qualities of a full size concert grand. You will be able to create the textures on these pianos. However, not all grands are equal, make sure that the ACTION IS RESPONSIVE. One that reacts immediately to your touch. Mine is sluggish and quite hard, so much so, that my hands up to my forearms ache after practicing for only an hour. My teacher says the action is bad for my hands.

Please don't spend your money on a baby grand, you will regret it later on. As for me, I learned the hard way. But that's another story, I was duped into rebuilding this. If you are serious about learning piano, you will be frustrated.

I hope this helps and good luck finding your piano.

there are perfectly excellent small grands for those who don't have the space for feets of string.

Estonia and Baldwin are the best i've encountered. they don't sound like a long piano but their actions are excellent. (and yes.. i'd love a 9 foot piano).

About the touch, only the quality of the piano matters. As for the sound, you should choose a piano that matches the room you plan to put it in, a very powerful piano in a small room can create much discomfort. A large majority of the small grand I tried could be outmatch by a quality upright. But, if like me, you have a small room/space limitation, a high quality small grand can better suit you than anything else. I fell for a used Grotrian 160 (~5'2) but the knabe 5'3 was not far behind in my price range.

In my mind I think I cut off the 'baby' designation at 160 cm or so. Tha's hardly scientifc though, just from my own particular experience.

With that cut-off and granting that there are probably as many I haven't played as those I have, at the low-price point the Hailun 151, at the midrange price the Knabe 53, and at the high end the Sauter Alpha are all standouts. But there are some verticals I would still choose over any of these three.

I'd love to try a Grotrian 160. From the smaller Grotrian verticals I've played, I would assume that Grotrian excels at executing a great piano in a limited space.

Although I thoroughly respect buying decisions based on house size, budget, whatever, I do still cringe when guests come to my home and comment on my beautiful (6'4") "baby grand".

At what size would they change the adjective? :rolleyes:

My 178 is sometimes called a baby grand by guests to my home - but just briefly, as they are required to leave after such inanities...

I think one difference between baby grands and full grown ones is that on a baby grand the undercover should be more moisture-absorbent...

I would never consider anything over 6 feet a baby grand.

In terms of relative cost, though, this makes me wonder. Aside from needing a little more labor to finish the case because it's bigger, doesn't a 7 foot grand piano take as much labor to make as the same quality piano at 5 feet? Maybe you just don't find 5 foot grands of the same quality of a 7 footer, but I would think that Steinway, for instance, would use the same action (no?), the same quality strings, the same varnishes, the same plate materials, etc., etc.

I'm just looking at the building of a piano from the labor side, though, not the difference in sound quality or anything else. I wonder what the difference in labor time is between a 5 foot grand and a 7 foot from the same company.

Yes, a Steinway S ought to be of the same quality as a B.

Note that the price difference between the two Walter grands is small, something like 1,000, showing a lack of interest in marketing baloney on Walter's part.

This is also true of autombiles. Does it really cost three times as much to make a Cadillac DTS as a Chevy Cobalt?

I agree with an "unscientific" view that baby grand might refer to about 160-165 cm (5') or so. Even a quality instrument will likely lack in the bass. Many pianos of that size are just not quality instruments (by no means all!).

I also agree that in a home, a piano of 178 cm (about 5'8") can be just as good or even preferable to a larger one of the same quality, simply because the sound of a larger piano can be so big.

My 5'8" Petrof IV is really good in my living room, although I can certainly hear it doesn't have the bass of a 7' piano. At a certain point, wanting a big bass might just be a matter of personal preference.

The labor on two pianos that are identical with the exception of size is very minor. For example, I doubt that the labor on a Yamaha C6 at 6'11" is much greater than on the C3 at 6'1".

PICKY SOB ALERT!

Actually, 178cm is more than 5'10".

PICKY SOB FOLLOWUP!

And 160-165cm is about 5'3 - 5'5. My Estonia 168 is 5'6".

While I do think everything in this general range could be referred to as a baby grand, not all grands are created equal at any size. Simply saying "don't buy a baby grand" is fairly useless advice.

I agree with M&HAAdriver.... I've had people remark on my 6'4" (August Forster 190) as a "Baby Grand". AF doesn't make baby grands. They make four grands: 5'8" - 6'4" - 7'2" and 9'1". They refer to their 7'2" and 9'1" as Concert Grands. The others can be considered parlour or studio grands.

I just upgraded my 190 to a 215... 7'2". Got it on Tuesday of this week... I have to admit it is a big large in size... and in sound. It took me a while to get used to. I live in an apartment with 8'ceilings but my living room, foyer, and dining area are all open to each other so there is at least some lateral room for the sound to fill. I fell in love with the 215 at the showroom at Altenburg's in Elizabeth, NJ mainly for its bass and clarity in the lower tenor range. My 190 was awesome and had plenty of power, base, and treble, but I am a sucker for overtones and harmonics.... I had to have the 215. I would not buy anything below a 6' piano but the 5'8" (170) August Forster is pretty gutsy. Expensive too... they all are. You should play the piano at length before buying it, maybe revisiting the store and playing it on more than one occasion... listen for bass and clarity in the lower tenor range... you might find a small grand that has a bigger sound... all pianos are different even when they are the same model made by the same manufacturer.

Although technically baby grand means a small grand piano, people call grand pianos baby grands no matter what size they are. It is just a term that caught on.

Every piano should be evaluated on its own merits, no matter what the size is. There is usually a trade-off between size and cost, and you need to find your own comfort zone there.

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When the 5'9" Walter came out I was surprised the price was only $1000.00 less than the W-190.

The Walters told me it cost approximitely $1,000 less to build the W-175 So they ask that we/dealers, price them accordingly.

They figure there are more pianos sold under the
6'4" range than above due to space limitations.

It's shows the honesty and transparity of the Walter Piano Company in pricing the pianos the way they do and not charging more, just because everyone else does.

In my opinion the W-175 sounds better than many larger pianos due to it's design. And the action is the same as the W-190

The names for the sizes of grands have been so abuse over the generations that they are somewhat meaningless. I have had some clients state that anything smaller than 9' is a "baby grand", and others state that a "baby grand" must be less than 5'7" and everything in between.
Simply put, they are all grand pianos. Just referr to them by their length and everyone will know what you are talking about.

As grand get longer three significant things happen in the design:
1. The string wire getts thinner, giving a sweeter sound due to greater flexibility.
2. The square inches of soundboard surface increases, giving more volume and projection.
3. Often, the length of the keystick increases (the part inside the piano) offering greater leverage.

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Longer pianos do not have thinner wire for a given note.

Perhaps a FEW exceptions in the WOUND BASS strings between the smallest grands compared to concert grands.

But not always. A Steinway "B"s first bass note is thicker than a Walter 190's and the 190's first string is 1 1/2" inches shorter but the overall piano is 6 1/2" shorter.

These pianos are baby grands:

These are not quite baby grands any more, but still not yet normal grands:







I couldn't find a pic of the Pearl River GP-328 (but then it probably belongs with the baby grands.) Also, I had to choose between a way-too-small or a way-too-big concept pic of the Klavins 408, and since I'm too lazy to edit it, I decided not to include it (but it would have gone in this post).

I have yet to see any adult/full-grown grands, though.


The baby grands in the other post just don't have the clarity in the bass that I look for in a grand piano. The Rubenstein R-371 (I haven't played the Challen or Xinghai) is a noticeable improvement, IMO, but I would actually like something better, if it exists or if someone wants to design and build it (for example, with an A0 speaking length of 4,876.8mm (16'/192"), compass down to C-1 (equivalent to a 64' organ stop) and up to G9 (highest note in MIDI), and the piano designed as well as possible (4 example not too short backscale, no foreshortening of notes in the tenor (I won't say where the break would be, but I'd expect it to be below E2/F2), etc)).

Uprights are baby grands too with transverse mounted soundboards that provide a more direct relationship between the pianist and tonal palette.

I stand corrected on my conversions from centimeters to inches. They came directly from an internet conversion website, so I guess I know to beware if it's something really important!

To convert centimeters to inches, divide by 2.54
To convert inches to centimeters, multiply by 2.54

Turandot, if you ever come by quebec city, you can come and give my little grotrian a try anytime!

As for my piano, I think it's model name "Chamber" fits much better than the "baby" designation

Everyone tells me I have a "large baby grand" so I guess that must be the case.

To me, there are grands and there are uprights - no such thing as a "baby grand". If the soundboard is horizontal, it's a grand.

Derick

so, in fact the length is more as a factor for spaces in room instead of its own tone and sound quality, is it? short grand piano can have nice bass registers and outstanding sound quality. am i getting it correct?

As someone else said, length is the characteristic that have the most influence on the sound and bass register, but that doesn't mean it can't be outmatched by a combination of others.

With piano of similar scale design (same brand), a longer piano will (almost) always have a better bass registers and sound quality. But I have found myself preferring a small high quality piano in both those criterias to longer piano from lower quality brand. But I'm not talking about comparing a 5' to a 9', all comparison were made under the 6' range.

But yes, I think my small piano have a nice bass register and outstanding sound quality, just not as much as larger models from the same brand. But I tried many small grand who could have been outmatched by a quality upright

I gather the best pianos with decent bass are at least 5'5" in length. I tried out an Estonia 168 at a piano party in New York (Grand obsession book signing and piano party) (the piano is 5'6" length) which I found to be very good, but there were others just as good that were more expensive. Will keep shopping around...

- Mark

The term "baby grand" has long been on the list of my hot buttons. It is unfortunate that even respected manufacturers are now using the term.

There are verticals and grands and they come in various sizes. Who would want to play an infant piano? Is a 6'-8" instrument a toddler? A few days ago I played a lovely Steingraeber adolescent.

The use of the term baby grand should be relegated to interior decorators who are pushing a piece of furniture rather than a musical instrument. Their clients are thrilled with a 9' baby grand.

Pianists Unite! Help stamp out the use of this pejorative misnomer.