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#891490 - 03/31/04 12:52 PM How Badly They Miscalculated
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
A year after Americans were to be greeted with dancing in the streets, we have this still happening.....

From Reuters....

Nine Die in Day of Violence in Iraq[/b]
Iraqis Mutilate Bodies of Contractors, Including Three Americans; Five GIs Killed

FALLUJAH, Iraq (March 31) - Jubilant residents dragged the charred corpses of four foreign contractors through the streets Wednesday and hanged them from the bridge spanning the Euphrates River. Three of four contractors who were killed in an ambush in Falluja are U.S. citizens, a State Department official said.

"We've identified three of the four as Americans," said the official, who asked not to be identified.

Meanwhile, five American soldiers died in a roadside bombing nearby.

The four contract workers for the U.S.-led coalition were killed in a rebel ambush of their SUVs in Fallujah, a Sunni Triangle city about 35 miles west of Baghdad and scene of some of the worst violence on both sides of the conflict since the beginning of the American occupation a year ago.

It was reminiscent of the 1993 scene in Somalia, when a mob dragged the corpse of a U.S. soldier through the streets of Mogadishu, eventually leading to the American withdrawal from the African nation.

The White house earlier vowed that the United States would stay the course in Iraq despite another bloody day.

''These are horrific attacks by people who are trying to prevent democracy from moving forward, but democracy is taking root,'' said White House spokesman Scott McClellan. He said the United States was holding fast to a June 30 deadline for handing over power in Iraq to a transitional Iraqi government.

In one of the bloodiest days for the U.S. military this year, five 1st Infantry Division soldiers died when their M-113 armored personnel carrier ran over a bomb in a separate incident 12 miles to the northwest, among the reed-lined roads running through some of Iraq's richest farmland.

Residents said the bomb attack occurred in Malahma, 12 miles northwest of Fallujah, where anti-U.S. insurgents are active. U.S. Marines operate in the area, but it was unclear whether the slain troops were Marines.

The White House blamed terrorists and remnants of Saddam's former regime for the ''horrific attacks.''

''There are some that are doing everything they can to try to prevent'' a June 30 transfer of sovereignty to an Iraqi government, White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters.

''There are terrorists, there are some remnants of the former regime that are enemies of freedom and enemies of democracy, but democracy is taking root and we are making important progress,'' McClellan added. ''We will not turn back from that effort.''

In the deadliest previous incident this year, nine soldiers were killed when their Black Hawk medevac helicopter crashed near Fallujah, apparently after being shot down.

In Baghdad, Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said the four killed in Fallujah were contractors working with the coalition. He did not say what they were doing in the city.

Chanting ''Fallujah is the graveyard of Americans,'' residents cheered after the grisly assault on two four-wheel-drive civilian vehicles, which left both in flames. Others chanted, ''We sacrifice our blood and souls for Islam.''

Associated Press Television News pictures showed one man beating a charred corpse with a metal pole. Others tied a yellow rope to a body, hooked it to a car and dragged it down the main street of town. Two blackened and mangled corpses were hung from a green iron bridge across the Euphrates.

''The people of Fallujah hanged some of the bodies on the old bridge like slaughtered sheep,'' resident Abdul Aziz Mohammed said. Some of the corpses were dismembered, he said.

Beneath the bodies, a man held a printed sign with a skull and crossbones and the phrase ''Fallujah is the cemetery for Americans.''

APTN showed the charred remains of three slain men. Some were wearing flak jackets, said resident Safa Mohammedi.

One resident displayed what appeared to be dog tags taken from one body. Residents also said there were weapons in the targeted cars. APTN showed one American passport near a body and a U.S. Department of Defense identification card belonging to another man.

U.S. military officials in Washington said the situation was still confused but they did not think the victims were American soldiers and believed the SUVs were not American military vehicles.

Witnesses said the two vehicles were attacked with small arms fire and rocket propelled grenades.

Hours after the attack, the city was quiet. No U.S. troops or Iraqi police were seen in the area.

Fallujah is in the so-called Sunni Triangle, where support for Saddam Hussein was strong and rebels often carry out attacks against American forces.

In nearby Ramadi, insurgents threw a grenade at a government building and Iraqi security forces returned fire Wednesday, witnesses said. It was not clear if there were casualties.

Also in Ramadi, a roadside bomb exploded near a U.S. convoy, witnesses said. U.S. officials in Baghdad could not confirm the attack.

On Tuesday in Ramadi, one U.S. soldier was killed and another wounded in a roadside bombing, said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt.

Northeast of Baghdad, in the city of Baqouba on Wednesday, a suicide bomber blew up explosives in his car when he was near a convoy of government vehicles, wounding 14 Iraqis and killing himself, officials said.

The attacked convoy is normally used to transport the Diala provincial governor, Abdullah al-Joubori, but he was elsewhere at the time, said police Col. Ali Hossein.

On Tuesday, a suicide bombing outside the house of a police chief in Hillah, about 60 miles south of Baghdad, killed the attacker and wounded seven others.

A bomb exploded late Tuesday in a movie theater that had closed for the night. Two bystanders were wounded by flying glass, said its owner, Ghani Mohammed.

The latest violence came two days after Carina Perelli, the head of a U.N. electoral team, said better security is vital if Iraq wants to hold elections by a Jan. 31 deadline. The polls are scheduled to follow a June 30 transfer of sovereignty to an Iraqi government.

Top U.S. administrator L. Paul Bremer said Tuesday he had appointed 21 anti-corruption inspectors general to government departments to try to prevent fraud. More will be named in coming days, he said.

The inspectors will work with two other newly formed, independent agencies. Together, they will ''form an integrated approach intended to combat corruption at every level of government across the country,'' Bremer said.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#891491 - 03/31/04 12:54 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Winning hearts and minds....

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#891492 - 03/31/04 01:19 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
And I'm sure Kerry will refrain from using this to gain political traction...not!
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#891493 - 03/31/04 01:24 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
I don't think he needs to say a thing.

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#891494 - 03/31/04 01:31 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
That doesn't mean he won't.
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#891495 - 03/31/04 01:46 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by ny1911:
And I'm sure Kerry will refrain from using this to gain political traction...not! [/b]
The President must be held accountable for how he got us into this, the lack of understanding of how angry the Iraqi's would be and for the absolute and horrific debacle we now face.

The nation deserves to have and must have a debate over what George Bush has done to us. Mr. Kerry MUST raise this issue and we must face this not just as an abstract debate over some sort of theory, but we have to see the pain and the suffering and the anger and the terrible human tragedy wrought by Mr. Bush and his neocon advisors -- all with little or no gain to our security, all with little or not gain for the world.

Yes, I expect Mr. Kerry to comment about what Mr. Bush has done. If you want to call his condemnation of Mr. Bush's war machine little more than "gaining political traction" so be it. But don't stick your head in the sand and ignore how wrong, how terrble, sadly and horrifically wrong Mr. Bush has been from the very beginning on Iraq.

And do not ignore the human tragedy that is unfolding in Iraq as a result of his policies and decisions.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#891496 - 03/31/04 02:05 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Oh, let's come off it: Kerry's policy on Iraq has been, and will be, little different from GWs. Maybe he'll bring in his own contractors. Both say they want to "internationalize" the effort (fat chance). Both won't pull out. Both favored involvement to begin with. Both believed in the WMD, which have now taken on a God-like essence -unknowable, inscrutable, but there nonetheless, even if just in the Creator's mind. Both believed there were connections to Al-Qaeda.

You're probably too young to remember Nixon's "secret plan" to get us out of Johnson's war mess. He did have a secret plan. Turn the war over to a war criminal.

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#891497 - 03/31/04 02:09 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
I think it is important to know if this is representative of the entire population's view in Iraq or if it is simply a small faction lashing out. Politically, Kerry can and will use it to suggest that the Iraqis are universally unhappy with our presence. That may not be true, and a tragic event will be exploited for ulterior motives.

What exactly has Bush done to us? While I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling about him, I think your portayal of him is unfair. Kerry is no better. We're all allowed to have our opinions on the war, so saying one is right or wrong is noise.

My security is in my decisions, not in the government, not in law enforcement, not in John Kerry and not in George Bush. Security is a state of mind and the public has indicated that their sense of security is greater with GWB. Extracting ourselves from Iraq or never going there in the first place would have no real effect on my sense of security or my decisions. While I understand what your point is, I don't know how you can arrive at the conclusions that you do. How do measure events surrounding security that have not happened?

Iraq is a model of several decades of human tragedy. UNICEF claimed that 5000 women and children were dying for no reason there per month through the Clinton years. Is the tragedy now greater than that?
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#891498 - 03/31/04 02:23 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by ny1911:
Iraq is a model of several decades of human tragedy. UNICEF claimed that 5000 women and children were dying for no reason there per month through the Clinton years. Is the tragedy now greater than that? [/b]
Absolutely NOT. In 1996, Madeleyn Albright was asked point blank about the 500,000 children that had already died as a result of the sanctions, and said this was an "acceptable price".

All of this for a country without WMD after 1992. Or ones that had already attained their God-like status -- people believed in them, even if they couldn't prove their existence.

Kerry will probably appoint the next set of war criminals.

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#891499 - 03/31/04 04:06 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
ny1911,

If you think your security, and safety is best placed in Bush's hands, take a look at this article.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editori...p_america_safe/

A quote from the article:

"The failure to protect the United States against terrorism is ongoing and directly related to Iraq. The Iraq detour has set back America's security in at least five mutually reinforcing ways."

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#891500 - 03/31/04 04:18 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Do you think you could find an authority a bit more centered than Robert Kuttner?
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#891501 - 03/31/04 05:14 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
bcarey...I place my security in my own hands at all times.
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#891502 - 03/31/04 07:05 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by ny1911:
bcarey...I place my security in my own hands at all times. [/b]
Then I'm assuming that you avoid all planes, trains, automobiles, ports, all US landmarks, and Janet Jackson. Add Michael to that as well.
\:D

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#891503 - 03/31/04 07:12 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Do you think you could find an authority a bit more centered than Robert Kuttner? [/b]
He tells it like it is - bullet point by bullet point.

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#891504 - 03/31/04 08:03 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
Good article, bcarey. Finally, there is some focus on what many have been sayng for so long -- Iraq has made us far less safe and has kept us from going after those who are the biggest threat to us.

Al Quaeda lives, thrives and grows while we spend our time trying to figure out how to keep 125,000 American troops from being daily sitting ducks among a populace that does not want us there.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#891505 - 03/31/04 09:33 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by bcarey:
 Quote:
Originally posted by ny1911:
bcarey...I place my security in my own hands at all times. [/b]
Then I'm assuming that you avoid all planes, trains, automobiles, ports, all US landmarks, and Janet Jackson. Add Michael to that as well.
\:D [/b]
Of those, I only avoid Michael, though I don't know if that is for his safety or mine. :p In the other cases, if someone wants to get you (or me) they will. You can't count on any 3rd party for security. Look at Israel, which probably has the best security in the world. You make choices and play the game of odds. Maintain situational awareness and the ability to protect yourself (however you choose) and you can skew the odds in your favor.

The watchdogs are furiously looking for administrative slip-ups w.r.t. homeland security. No matter who wins, the level of attention to the issue will be high. I originally commented that the "sense of security" was polled to be greater with GWB over Kerry. That doesn't mean it is based in any reality...
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#891506 - 03/31/04 09:36 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by John Andrew:
Good article, bcarey. Finally, there is some focus on what many have been sayng for so long -- Iraq has made us far less safe and has kept us from going after those who are the biggest threat to us.
[/b]
You forgot to say "IMO".
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#891507 - 03/31/04 10:03 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
Brendan Online   content


Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5228
Loc: McAllen, TX
http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=Fallujah&ei=UTF-8&=&c=news_photos&&b=1&xargs=

About halfway down the page (the pics with the green bridge).
_________________________
http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

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#891508 - 03/31/04 10:15 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Awful awful awful

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#891509 - 03/31/04 10:29 PM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
I saw those earlier today. I can't imagine the misplaced rage to produce that behavior.
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#891510 - 04/01/04 12:37 AM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
reblder Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/21/01
Posts: 1237
Loc: Sherman Oaks, Calif.
It is simply beyond comprehension how Bush's press secretary, Scott McClennan, could say(as he did)that these acts were committed by "enemies of the Iraqi people"(as if these acts were committed by non-Iraquis???????). The implication then would be that to qualify as a bona fide Iraqi, such a person must be fully in support of what the U.S. is doing there. What rubbish!

But I too was saddened seeing the news of this on TV. And I think it's a combination of the U.S. military occupation and the enormous loss of life from the sanctions and the invasion last year(and the fact that Bush & Co. might not be thrilled accepting it BUT Sadaam had supporters in that town)which explained the intense rage and brutality of this incident today.

Mark Mandell

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#891511 - 04/01/04 10:48 AM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
The Iraqi camaraman who shot the pictures has stated in several interviews that the vast majority of Iraqi citizens present did not participate in it, denounced it, and hid in their homes. The reaction by the general Iraqi citizen has been one of outrage and condemnation of those that did this. While the Iraqi people in general are glad for our intervention and also have stated their appreciation for the increased security in their lives (yes JA, even with innocent Iraqi's dying in attacks daily, along with US soldiers and foreign nationals; the average Iraqi citizen still sees the country as safer than it was 13-14 months ago. What's that tell you? And yes, I don't have the links handy, but I will provide them to back up these assertions).

The only complaint from the Iraqi people in general, is that they look forward to the americans leaving. Alot on the left take it as a sign that they don't want us there; and that's true.....long term. They want to get themselves to a level of security where they can completely govern and police themselves; they do not want the US interfering long term, and look forward to the day we leave. I applaud that and think it's only natural. It's also only natural for them to distrust us as they've been raised and bred to think of us as the great enemy. International and even US media hasn't helped with their portrayal of us either. So, their feelings of mistrust are completely understandable, and completely expected. JA keeps on trying to cloud the issue by trying to make us think we expected this to be easy and within 6 months Iraq would be stable, secure, selfgoverning, and we'd be outta there. John, nobody ever made these claims. From day one, we knew it was going to be hard, there would be thousands of US casualties, and it would take years. Just go back fifteen months and look at the threads from the time leading up to the war. As a matter of fact, I for one think it's going far better than I expected.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#891512 - 04/01/04 10:57 AM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
From Peggy Noonan..(Wall Street),,edited

Those behind yesterday's atrocity must pay--or we all will.

Thursday, April 1, 2004 12:01 a.m. EST

The world is used to bad news and always has been, but now and then there occurs something so brutal, so outside the normal limits of what used to be called man's inhumanity to man, that you have to look away. Then you force yourself to look and see and only one thought is possible: This must stop now. You wonder, how can we do it? And your mind says, immediately: Whatever it takes.

What they did in Fallujah, Iraq, yesterday was such an event. The ambush, grenading, shooting and killing of four American civilians, the setting of their SUVs on fire and the brutalization of their corpses was savage, primitive, unacceptable. The terrible glee of the young men in the crowds, and the sadism they evinced, reminds us of the special power of the ignorant to impede the good. The pictures that television appropriately mostly did not show and the Internet inevitably mostly did were horrifying in a way that was reminiscent of the first still pictures of the Trade Center victims of 9/11. It was like seeing people in business suits falling through the air again. It was as if someone pointed a camera at evil and actually caught it in the act.

The Americans who were murdered were, according to the wires, working for a security company, a North Carolina-based subcontractor hired by the U.S. government, among other things, to guard convoys.

The convoys carried food. They carried it to Fallujah.


I'm becoming MHR or Lazy... all this quoting.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Ă•un (apple in Estonian)

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#891513 - 04/01/04 11:11 AM Re: How Badly They Miscalculated
MLT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 356
The problem with JA, KathyK and much of the left is that they are insistently fighting the last war. For them Iraq = Vietnam and there are no facts which will change their minds.

These killings in Iraq don’t represent the people of Iraq any more than the LA riots represented most Americans. When somebody suggest that overall Iraq is a much better place, that information does not compute for them. They just quickly sputter onto the next point of dissention, WMD’s, Haliburton… the list is endless and facts are not welcome. Iraq must equal Vietnam, quagmire, imperialism, empire… What you have here is some backwards Iraqi’s with all the prowess and bravery to, ummm, declare war on a couple of unarmed accountants in an SUV. Woww, their prowess and bravery baffles the mind. Good thing there are no McDonalds in Iraq yet or they might actually get the nerve up to take a knife into the Playland! Get a grip you guys.

The killings that occurred are sad. More sad is the fact that reasonably intelligent people fail to see it for what it really is, and instead assign it much greater significance than reality would suggest. I’m starting to think that its mainly people on the left that are now “true believers” instead of those on the right. They have their dogma now and please don’t pester them with reality.

Kirk

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