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Reading a number of Posts it seems that a lot of people hear are religious or (even better) spiritual. Anyway I myself am a believer in a divine being and do not believe in evolution (at least not a Darwinian view). My proof of a God would simply be " I think therefore I am and if I am then He is"

So if we believe in a God then you probably read or have a Bible. Now I just want to ask a couple of questions WRT the Bible.

1. In Genisis during the creation when God says "Let there be light" where is this light coming from? The sun, moon, stars are not created until later.

2. Assuming the story of Adam and Eve are literal. Where did Cain (or Abel - cant remember which was killed) get a wife from if Adam and Eve are supposedly the only beings around and the origin of the entire human race? It seems that they weren't the only people around.

These are but a couple of obvious questions which cannot be definitively answered and are interesting (at least to me). Please add any other thought provokers you may think about each and every day.

To answer that second question, the theory is that God first created Lilith as the first human woman, and wasn't subservient enough for Adam, so she was banished, and Eve was then created from his rib. Later, Cain, who was banished, found Lilith, and they had children, which is a theory that Mankind originated from an unpure offspring, explaining how we are so evil.

As I recall, there is no mention made that Cain and Abel were the *only* children of Adam and Eve. Feel free to draw your own conclusion.

To answer the first question (and I agree with Matt G.'s interpretation in the second question): God Himself in a preincarnate Jesus, who is often referred to as the "light." I mean, if He is God, He's definitely powerful enough to be His own light source, isn't He?

penny

92NXK3VI17, MATT G and PENNY:

I believe that there most definitely were other people around that are not mentioned in the Bible, early in Genesis, whether descendants of Adam and Eve is probably a moot point. I tend to believe in a factual/literal interpretation of the Bible – FOR THE MOST PART – based on what archaeology has proven, it's quite amazing!

I don't buy that we are “unpure offspring” though. There were no laws against what we now call incest initially and probably human physiology at that time would allow this without the physical consequences that occur today. It would have to be this way in order to populate the earth initially. Eventually – as part of G-d's ultimate plan – this type of relationship was deemed unnatural and a sin, probably so that we would be forced to wander further abroad in search of a suitable mate and populate the whole earth (much the way the “Tower of Babel” story would lead to distinct cultures. I believe that when this judgment was made G-d altered our physiology/ genetics so that if people engaged in this sort of behavior there would be undesirable consequences.

I also agree with Penny that the light that is being referred to is probably more of a “spiritual or awareness of existence” light and not a physical thing. I believe that G-d and Jesus are separate entities though. The Bible refers to countless angels and beings which he created that are immortal so why not a separate “Jesus”. He created Lucifer who was second only to G-d himself. I always wonder if these angels and beings simply exist in a different dimension or simply in a part of the light spectrum that we cannot perceive and keep notes on each and every one of us from birth to death?

As an aside it is clear that G-d is perfect. If he is perfect then he can only create perfection, which is what he did create according to the Bible. However, it is quite clear that the universe is not a perfect place there is quite clearly mass destruction and damage done on a monumental scale. Is this evidence that the story in Psalms about Lucifer and a 1/3 of the angels rebelling against G-d in heaven proof that there was a struggle which caused huge destruction throughout the universe (possibly destroying a previous Earth – and the dinosaurs) which then required the creation of another Earth?

So what is the purpose of man/womankind. I most definitely do not believe that we are destined to go to “heaven” and bow to G-d and eternally praise him, that sounds oh so boring!!. This is what angels do. The Bible is clear in saying that the Earth will exist forever. It is our home and where we are meant to be. I believe that our time of ruining ourselves and the Earth is nearing an end and G-d or Jesus will return and force us to follow the path that we seem incapable of following on our own – we most desperately need divine intervention – if we have learned nothing else in 6000 years we have learned that we cannot rule ourselves. People do not seem to understand that we do not own the Earth, it was given to us to look after and enjoy and we have failed most miserably in this. I believe that very soon we will be forced to return this Earth to a pristine state and maybe in the future be allowed to explore (and maybe repair) the entire universe. We will be given a spirit body which can still enjoy the pleasures of life but will not “need” food or rest to live but can indulge in them as “pleasures”. Of course you first have to prove that you are worthy of eternal life.

I find the hardest thing to get my mind around is that G-d has always existed – with no beginning and no end. That's phenomenal and yet it must be true because we exist.

I don't believe there is a great mystery to the meaning of life, it's quite simple. Be nice, apply the Golden Rule and have a good heart. Anything else will not get you were you want to go.

All right I'm off the soap box. Sorry for the rambling. Other views please.
:p

Problem of evil, teleological argument, ontological argument, cosmological argument. Previous philosophers and theologians have run through that already such that I have little to add. The conclusion from both the skeptics such as David Hume and believers such as Aquinas is that the existence of God can neither be proven or disproven by pure reason. This was standard curriculum for undergrad philosophy last time I checked.

Have fun in your discussion. I hope it doesn't turn into a nasty brawl. Lots of passion any time you question somebody's religion...

T2

All Thumb --

Why do you believe all of this? What has led you to these conclusions?

Hi George,

I just find other possibilities interesting compared to standard theological thinking. I do not care for religions that have done more harm than good to mankind, which is pretty much all of them. How many have died in the name of religion? It's insane how people have murdered/tortured/deceived in the name of the same G-d. It is such folly how so many millions will go to a place of worship religiously (couldn't resist) each Sunday/Saturday but not give G-d another thought at any other time. And why would I want to confess my sins to another human I don't even know (and who is probably a bigger sinner than I)? A relationship with G-d is on an individual level, it has to be as only you will be accountable for your actions.

The only things I truly believe are the existence of a supreme being, that we are living in dangerous times and that our actions/motives while alive will determine whether we will be allowed the opportunity to exist eternally. I think it would be cruel of a supreme being to bring us into existence, to let us experience all the joys and beauties that life has to offer and then have us cease to exist? It would not make any sense, it would be better to have never existed. Let's face it, our time on Earth is over in the blink of an eye, relatively speaking. Why give us a taste of what existence has to offer if not for the opportunity of having it forever? Having said that I'm sure many would probably not want an eternal life – but they would be missing the point – who would not want life in perfect health and state of mind? Our biggest failing as a western society is how we have let so much of the world suffer while we spend absurd amounts of money and time in preparing for war. We have reached the point where we will not advance any further as a species unless the world is brought under one government and I'm not talking about a human led government either.

I guess a lot of what I think may be true is based on biblical prophecies. I see the events shaping up quite nicely for the “end times”. Although I am not a bible thumping doomsday proponent I do believe that a war is going to happen very soon (10 years?) between Israel and Russia/China which will be the 3rd World War.

Now more points to ponder! It's amazing how many people actually believe that Jesus was born on Christmas Dec 25th and yet don't realize that Christmas is a pagan holiday that existed long before Jesus ever showed up and the same is true of Easter. If people are going to defend to the death their beliefs then should they not know as much as they can about their religion? Why blindly accept what they are spoon fed? Isn't Jesus's death infinitely more important than his birth? But then again Christmas has very little to do with religion anymore.

Yes, Jesus's death is more important than His birth but His victory over death is the ultimate. That is what we celebrate at Easter and the fact that there was a pagan holiday for the goddess Oestre is just one of these red herrings folks throw out. If you worship the Easter bunny, then you're going back to Oestre. If you're celebrating Christ's resurrection, then you're doing something completely different. Many of the practices within the Church, especially the Roman Catholic Church, were adapted from pagan rites to help the pagans accept Christ. The meanings behind the rites were changed to represent the Church's beliefs and supplant that of the pagans. It's like beating swords into plows where the metal has taken on a new, useful purpose and lost its old destructive one.

Thanks, Thumb.

I understand what you are saying about where you are in your thinking. However, why have you chosen a particularly Christian slant to this and why have you chosen the Christian Scripture to base your expectations of the end times on?

DT, what a great analogy! That one's a keeper!

I believe Christmas was supplanted around the winter solstice, the longest night of the year, for Christians to counter the pagen rituals of that time. Actually, some pagen rituals for that time of year have carried over into the Christian holiday. The christmas tree - the candles (originally) were part of the pagen ritual of celebrating the end of the longest night at solstice, and the star of Bethlehem was incorporated into the pagen candle ritual to evolve into what we now know as the Christmas tree.

But I can't racall what Easter was designated to "compete" against. Christ was killed at the time of Passover, and the fact that Christianity's most sacred feast coincided with the pre-Christian feast of Passover is of significance, but what pagen event occured at Easter?

Jamie

All Thumb wrote:



I didn't say that! I said God was the source of the light! It was a real light! Again, if He is all-powerful enough to create the world, He is omnipotent enough to provide the light source. Not a huge issue for me. Besides, how else could have plants sprouted before the sun and moons and stars were created on the fourth day?

All Thumb, are you Jewish? You write G-d like many other practicing Jews.

penny

penny

The celebration of Easter is close to the beginning of spring. March 21st is the beginning of spring and also happens to be the longest day of the year. In that respect it's the counterpoint of Christmas.
The name Easter comes from the germanic(or was it nordic?) goddess Ostera who was worshipped in pagan times at the beginning of spring. I think Ostera was a/the goddess of fertility.
What is still left from the pagan feast in the christian celebration of Easter is the Easter egg and the bonfire lit on Easter sunday.
The egg was a symbol for fertility and a bonfire ended almost every pagan feast.

[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: Nici ]

I'm a Christian, and, being one, believe that philosophy is good, and conjecture is your own thing.
I also believe that the scripture can be interpreted in thousands of ways.
God told Moses, "I AM" If He's omnipotent, omniscience,omnipresent, etc, He doesn't have to have a reason OR a source for anything He did/does.
The mere fact that He decided to create Heaven and earth is sufficient unto itself. How can we presume to know His mind, or speculate on His resources?

Free thought is a gift given by Him. So, exercise it!!

Sorry Nici, but March 21 is Spring Equinox - (equal day and night), and the first day of spring. June 20/21 is Summer Solstice, and the longest day of the year.

Jamie

Samejame,

really? If so I did (again) mix up equinox with solstice. I can't seem to remember which is which
The rest of the story, I believe, is true - unless I was told total nonsense in school.

Here is something to consider; While in Eden, Adam and Eve were immortal, and lived hundreds or perhaps thousands of years, and had countless children before Cain and Able. If you recall, after their original sin, God decreed that "they would surely die". The Bible may imply that they may have lived a very long time with death not being possible. Only after sin did death become a reality. If a light from Heaven suddenly lit up your livingroom and the voice of God said; 'Because you have broken the speed limit in a school zone you shall surely die.' You would think to yourself...Well duh..... of course... as if I was immortal anyway, so what is the downside? But if you WERE immortal, then death would take on a whole new meaning. Eve was also cursed with pain during childbirth. If Cain and Able with Eve's first children, the pain of their birth would seem irrelevent. If Eve had given birth in Eden without pain, and perhaps even with pleasure, then post Eden childbirth with pain would be a very real reminder of what the consequences were to sinning against God. So IF Adam and Eve were immortal in Eden and lived hundreds of years or more, and gave painfree birth to hundreds of children, then Cain would have had little problem finding other children or their decendents to take as a wife.

Now about seven day Creationism and Darwinism. First off, just how long is Gods day? And how would you measure it if there is no sun and earth? The account of Genesis was written in an era when there was no knowledge of atomic matter, DNA, dinosaurs, or that the earth revolved around the sun instead of viceversa. The account is a simplistic statment that says; "Everything is here because of God." The mechanics of HOW things were created is really of little concern to people living hundreds of years ago, who did not know of atoms and DNA. Suppose you deside to buy a new Ford, and get a chance to see it being manufactured. It takes seven hours to build your car. "In the third hour was your engine... and you said 'It is good'. After seven hours your car is created, but did it really take seven hours? No. The main components were assembled in seven hours, but the creation of your car actually took millions of years, starting with a prehistoric forrest that would later become the oil that would lubricate your engine, gas to make it go, and the plastic of your dashboard. The iron ore is mined, forged into steel, shaped into nuts and thrown into a bin where they wait to be attached to your engine. The list goes on and on. Ever consider how the door lock button is created? Probably not. Most people don't really care. They just want the button. Henry Ford did not build your car, but he did set into motion a chain of events that led to your new Thunderbird. The style of cars as well as the manufacturing techniques to build them EVOLVED over time. Horses were once three toed animals the size of a dog. They EVOLVED. So why couldn't humans? God could have set a chain of events in motion that caused a protein chain to become a single cell animal. Which evolved into multicelled animals and eventually humanoids. Adam could have been the first human to understand right from wrong. Perhaps God gave him this knowledge. God would then have "created" Adam, to be different than the other animals, and thus have a soul. The Bible does not give us the mechanics of exactally HOW Adam was created, (bellybutton or not?) It simply states Adam was the "first" man, perhaps to have a soul. Making him different than other humanoids. We don't know exactly how man was created, much like most of us don't know how the wires of our car were created. The bottom line, mankind exists, and can buy a new Ford. Darwinism may not be that far from the truth. The seven days may only refer to the "main componants" of Heaven, Earth, and life in general. Simplistic. Easy for people of any generation to understand. Just like your car and its components. A day may mean "Era". Each era had something new added, or evolved. How doesn't matter. The Bible says 'Everything is here because of God', and isn't that all that really matters?

I always find it interesting that creationists and other Bible literalists have so little belief in the omnipotence of God that they limit God's ability to create to that which was written to explain the origins of the world and how it works to uneducated, ignorant nomads -- as it was orginally handed down and interpreted for hundreds of years of oral tradition and then written and re-written over hundreds of more years, in hundreds of languages, none of which have fully translatable words.