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#897840 - 03/05/05 01:01 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
Just me, the problem is that abortions of convenience have been carried out throughout history, regardless of whether they were safe or not, legal or otherwise. Making convenience abortions illegal will just take us back to those dark ages. I do agree with you in that adoption is not being promoted as it should. But I think many of the convenience abortions occur from societal and family pressures that make a young, unwed mother feel shame and that she must hide the pregnancy from those she knows. Carrying it to full term in order to give it up for adoption does not eliminate the visual signs, which is what she wants.

So if you make it illegal for her she will find some unlicensed idiot to do it in the motel or the "clinic" and we're back to square one.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

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Piano & Music Accessories
#897841 - 03/05/05 01:07 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
Sex Ed
Condoms

Abstinence works only when it works.

Sex is a natural healthy and powerful craving, especially for youngins.

Top
#897842 - 03/05/05 01:11 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
They don't want to talk about it. They want "abstinence only". It is a Catch 22 situation.

Sex Ed and condoms are great but at some point they both fail to do their job and women do get pregnant who don't want to be, who shouldn't have been having sex in the first place. We're talking about what is best to do after that happens.

Oh and we were also looking at those beautiful pictures of babies in the womb.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

Top
#897843 - 03/05/05 01:12 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
now for $16.95 they have - now how they can sell a generic I don't know.. It's offered elsewhere for $75. Unless the government pays to terminate the kid, 17 bucks is pretty cheap.

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_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#897844 - 03/05/05 01:12 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
I can't imagine what could be much more traumatic for a girl or young woman than being forced to carry a pregnancy to term when she's not emotionally ready. Nor can I imagine the trauma of birthing a baby and giving it away, never again to see it. For those young women who choose to deal with their unwanted pregnancies by carrying the child to term and giving it up for adoption, God bless them. IMO, they are saintly. But, to advocate forcing those who don't so choose to do so, to me is as repugnant as declaring women chattels. Moooooo!

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#897845 - 03/05/05 01:19 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
Apple I think the morning after pill is technically a contraception pill as it frequently stops pregnancy before the egg is fertilized. There is the possibility of it destroying a fertilized egg, though.

RU-486 is the abortion pill. And that costs about $900.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

Top
#897846 - 03/05/05 01:23 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
ivory: "Tell me that's not a human being."

Deal. It's not a human being. It is a potential human being, but it is not a human being yet, any more than an acorn is an oak tree.

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#897847 - 03/05/05 01:48 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
Apple I think the morning after pill is technically a contraception pill as it frequently stops pregnancy before the egg is fertilized. There is the possibility of it destroying a fertilized egg, though.

RU-486 is the abortion pill. And that costs about $900.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com [/b]
Ask JM, but a BCP cocktail is about as effective, and a heck of a lot cheaper.

However, if a young girl is emotionally sound enough to spread her legs on purpose, she should live with the consequences...as should the male half of that horizontal mambo.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#897848 - 03/05/05 01:49 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
ivory: "Tell me that's not a human being."

Deal. It's not a human being. It is a potential human being, but it is not a human being yet, any more than an acorn is an oak tree. [/b]
On this one, you're dead wrong.

Ask Scott Peterson.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#897849 - 03/05/05 01:52 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Mercutio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 327
Loc: Hart Island, NYC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
ivory: "Tell me that's not a human being."

Deal. It's not a human being. It is a potential human being, but it is not a human being yet, any more than an acorn is an oak tree. [/b]
Himmler: "Jews are human being in the same way fleas are animals."

Jeffery, got any more analogies?

\:D
_________________________
I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy--Pinocchio

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#897850 - 03/05/05 01:53 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
it is being that is human.... don't KID yourself..
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#897851 - 03/05/05 01:55 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
Typical Coffee Room:

Just compare your adversary's position to Nazism. Works every time. :rolleyes:
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#897852 - 03/05/05 01:56 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:

However, if a young girl is emotionally sound enough to spread her legs on purpose, she should live with the consequences...as should the male half of that horizontal mambo. [/b]
Yes she *should*. But my question is what do we do as a society when she still decides she doesn't want to? This goes back to the post I made to Apple and Just me. Do you suggest that we illegalize it so she can suffer more?

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

Top
#897853 - 03/05/05 01:57 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Mercutio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 327
Loc: Hart Island, NYC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
Typical Coffee Room:

Just compare your adversary's position to Nazism. Works every time. :rolleyes: [/b]
Bullseye!

Didn't think it would be so easy.

\:D
_________________________
I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy--Pinocchio

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#897854 - 03/05/05 02:06 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
apple etc. - The view that life begins at conception is a narrow religious view. Even the Catholic Church did not believe this until very recently - the 1800's. Aquinas, for example, held that life began at quickening - roughly 4-5 months, about when 90 percent of all abortions in the US are held. The rest are usually for serious medical reasons. There is no reason to impose a sectarian religious viewpoint on the rest of the country.

I'm off to contribute more charitable donations to abortion rights organizations to make sure we keep our freedoms.

As for the Nazi analogies - I believe they were against abortion as part of their "Children, Cooking and Church" campaign to keep women in the home, out of the workforce, and breeding, which is the general motivation for anti-abortion politics today as well. The better comparison is between anti-abortion fanatics and the Nazi party.

Top
#897855 - 03/05/05 02:17 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Mercutio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 327
Loc: Hart Island, NYC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:

As for the Nazi analogies - I believe they were against abortion as part of their "Children, Cooking and Church" campaign to keep women in the home, out of the workforce, and breeding, which is the general motivation for anti-abortion politics today as well. The better comparison is between anti-abortion fanatics and the Nazi party. [/b]
Jeffery,

The point I was making (far above Matt's head, :rolleyes: ) was that words are words--they hold no particular meaning in fact, unless we give them meaning. Analogies are often akin to lies in the most intimate of ways. Anyone can define the meaning of "human" in any way they feel is convenient. My suggestion is that we define the term in the most inclusive way possible--to avoid confusion.

With all due respect.
_________________________
I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy--Pinocchio

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#897856 - 03/05/05 02:25 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by ivorythumper:What is the difference whether the child is living inside the womb or outside of it? [/b]
The difference is that it's the mother which is keeping the foetus alive. Outside the mother's body, the foetus wouldn't survive. It's that simple.
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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#897857 - 03/05/05 02:28 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mercutio:
The point I was making (far above Matt's head, :rolleyes: ) was that words are words--they hold no particular meaning in fact, unless we give them meaning.[/b]
Oh, good grief, another would-be semiotician manqué. :rolleyes: Let 'em roll, Merc. You'll find that few, if any, things are above my head. (Oh, and thank you for the insult, BTW.)
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#897858 - 03/05/05 02:29 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Mercutio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 327
Loc: Hart Island, NYC
 Quote:
Originally posted by phykell:
 Quote:
Originally posted by ivorythumper:What is the difference whether the child is living inside the womb or outside of it? [/b]
The difference is that it's the mother which is keeping the foetus alive. Outside the mother's body, the foetus wouldn't survive. It's that simple. [/b]
Then no partial birth abortions?

That's a start.

\:\)
_________________________
I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy--Pinocchio

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#897859 - 03/05/05 02:36 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Mercutio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 327
Loc: Hart Island, NYC
 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mercutio:
The point I was making (far above Matt's head, :rolleyes: ) was that words are words--they hold no particular meaning in fact, unless we give them meaning.[/b]
Oh, good grief, another would-be semiotician manqué. :rolleyes: Let 'em roll, Merc. You'll find that few, if any, things are above my head. (Oh, and thank you for the insult, BTW.) [/b]
No offence Matt, but you whacked me first.

And the accent of manque--how delicate of you! A sublime charm, a jewel; I am in awe.

Your humble servant,

Mercutio
_________________________
I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy--Pinocchio

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#897860 - 03/05/05 02:45 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
This won't be fun enough for me for at least 12 more pages!

Just kidding...

On a serious note though, I think I will respectfully decline from this thread, rather than muddy the waters anymore.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#897861 - 03/05/05 02:53 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
ivory: "Tell me that's not a human being."

Deal. It's not a human being. It is a potential human being, but it is not a human being yet, any more than an acorn is an oak tree. [/b]
On this one, you're dead wrong.

Ask Scott Peterson. [/b]
Anybody remember "Miracle on 34th Street". I hope I've got the name right, it's the old Christmas movie with Natalie Wood, and Maureen O'Hara...well, the existence of Santa Claus was proven when an official government agency recognized him.

In the case of the Peterson trial, was not Scott convicted of his son's murder?

How can one be convicted of murdering that which does not exist?
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#897862 - 03/05/05 02:53 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
Decline accepted. ;\) And I'm going to bed. I have no inclination to humor possible sockpuppetts like Mercutio.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

Top
#897863 - 03/05/05 02:58 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Mercutio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 327
Loc: Hart Island, NYC
 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
Decline accepted. ;\) And I'm going to bed. I have no inclination to humor possible sockpuppetts like Mercutio.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com [/b]
All in life is gray, vast gray--no black, no white--alas, now to slumber I must go--in gray; ever in gray. \:\(

You should have been a pair of ragged claws
Scuttling across the floors of silent seas.

All in gray.

\:D
_________________________
I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy--Pinocchio

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#897864 - 03/05/05 03:11 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
fizzygirl Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 614
Loc: Minnesnowta
The imagery in that video was stunning! Thank you for posting the link Ivory. I wish we had National Geographic included with our cable channels. I would love to watch the program. The miracle of life never ceases to amaze me. \:\)

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#897865 - 03/05/05 03:38 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
I read the following in the journal "First Things."

"First Things" describes itself as the journal of religion, culture, and public life. It is primarily conservative (true conservative, I would not say "right wing") in its commentary, and is one of the most intelligent and challenging publications I receive.

This article was written by Richard Neuhaus, a Jesuit priest. I found it interesting because of his political analysis of the abortion issue if Roe V Wade is overturned or severely limited; he argues that abortion will shift from being a GOP issue to a Democratic issue, if this happens.

I offer it here for your comments.

 Quote:
Quite suddenly, or so it seems to many, the prospect of Roe v. Wade being overturned or effectively nullified has entered mainstream discussion. This has everything to do, of course, with the November 2004 election and the filling of vacancies on the Supreme Court. James Taranto, writing in the Wall Street Journal, takes a cool, some might say jaded, view of the possible political consequences: “Republicans are an extreme antiabortion party only in theory. When it comes to actual legislation, the GOP favors only modest—and popular—regulations. The Democrats, on the other hand, must defend such unpopular practices as partial-birth abortion, taxpayer-subsidized abortion, and abortions for thirteen-years-olds without their parents’ knowledge. If the Supreme Court overturned Roe, legislators would have to consider the legality of abortion itself. Antiabortion absolutists would demand action from Republicans—but the GOP would be unable to comply without putting off moderate voters, who are much more numerous. Thus the battle would shift to terrain far more favorable to the Democrats. Congressional Republicans’ smartest response would be to avoid the issue and leave it to the state legislatures. But this would free Democrats as well as Republicans to tailor their positions to match their constituents’. Abortion would likely remain legal in much of the country, and the Democratic Party would find it has nothing to fear from democracy.” Returning abortion policy to the states might well be the best course of action available. But to say abortion “would likely remain legal in much of the country” is somewhat misleading. More probably, it would remain legal in certain circumstances; perhaps in the first month or two or in the much discussed but little encountered instances of rape, incest, and direct threat to the life of the mother. It is possible but by no means certain that any state would adopt the unlimited abortion license mandated by Roe. Some states would likely provide comprehensive legal protection for the unborn from conception on. There is another factor, however. Today no court can plausibly follow Roe in claiming that we do not know when a human life begins. Over these thirty-plus years, every literate person has learned, if they did not know before, the basic science about when a human life begins. Nor is it likely that in the future pro-abortionists will be able to use the Dred Scott-like argument about the meaning of “person” employed by Roe. Politically and judicially, the question will be posed in an unevadable manner as to why some who are undeniably human beings have a right to legal protection while others do not. Speculation such as that by Taranto will undoubtedly become more widespread. The debate over abortion may take surprising twists and turns as people seek a politically sustainable equilibrium on the single most potent question in our public life. Attention must be paid to strategies and tactics and surprising turns, but those who understand what is at stake will never weary in working toward a society in which—if I may be permitted to say it for the thousandth time—every unborn child is protected in law and welcomed in life.

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#897866 - 03/05/05 03:42 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Mercutio Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/27/04
Posts: 327
Loc: Hart Island, NYC
Three points:

1. RJN is not a Jesuit.

2. Nothing given to the federal government EVER gets returned to the states.

and 3. The Democrats have EVERYTHING to fear from Democracy. That's why they are using plan B. (The courts.) They fail in every referendum they try. (Remember "gay marriage?)

\:D
_________________________
I'm not a puppet, I'm a real boy--Pinocchio

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#897867 - 03/05/05 03:46 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
Time for Tybalt to show up.
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#897868 - 03/05/05 03:49 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
nunatax, there's only one poster who regularly follows you.... he's one past key #88
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#897869 - 03/05/05 03:56 PM Re: Just some pictures of "uterine contents"
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
I believe the Taliban banned abortion, too. Good company for the anti-abortion types here.

Oh, and I know who Mercutio is, there is a mistake in his spelling that only one long-time poster regularly has.

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