Man is sinful, but man is not Evil. While his government will be sinful, do not some some examples exceed mere sinfulness, and constitute a manifestation of Evil?

And others, though being also sinful, since perfection is not obtainable, also can promulgate Good?

Now Matt, I hope you wouldn't think that anything would be ontologically contingent on my skills.

Jolly - are you serious? Or are you just having a p1ss with us?

I looked at your profile and decided you can't be for real. No self-respecting, god-fearing redstater would admit he works for the government.



ps - all in good fun.

Siddhartha,

We see things as they are.

If I have not mentioned this before, I like your user name immensely.

Then here is the acid-test...you can live your life as you please, and I can try to adhere to my ideas of Good and Evil, trying to walk in the light of my belief as much as possible. Falling short of the ideal, and doing the best I can by the Grace of a benevolent God.

By most standards, I will have lived a productive and caring life, if I can do what is Right. You can live life however you please.

At the end of the day, perhaps we are both worm food, nothing more. You will be proven right.

However, if Death is not an end, but a beginning, some of us are going to be greatly surprised, are we not?

Yes, and no.

Tell me something Jolly, and this is not meant as a slam on faith, religion or otherwise.

Where do you suppose we actually "go" after we die.

Remember that I was raised a Catholic but eschew religion now.

I am being completely sincere.

Mark

A clarification on my diatribe. It was directed at those who condemned the gay life style itself.

It was not directed at those who have problems with gay marriage itself. In particular, I think one needs to separate secular marriages from those performed as religious ceremonies. The issue in the last election was secular marriage. At the same time, I am NOT implying that one’s religious beliefs should be omitted from their voting decision on such matters. (How ridiculous it would be to argue otherwise.)

But use of the word "evil" regarding homosexual marriage? Here I resonate with jon-nyc. It’s one thing for a Bush to use this as a code word in an election to pull in votes from the religious right. I suggest it’s another thing entirely for the Pope to send such a signal to the world.

(side note to Peggy: I’ll never leave PW, at least not because of the kinds of bozos I mentioned. The rage I referred to was an intellectual one, not an emotional one. Even when I do lose my emotional temper, which is rare, it lasts for about a minute or so.

Why that rage. To be honest, it goes beyond just the gay-bashing. What I’m going to say has nothing to do with anyone on PW because I don’t really know anyone on PW. It’s the association of certain positions with people I have known in real life. Of course, as they say, let the chips fall where they may. (Geez, I just composed a couplet! )

The people I’m referring to are bigots on a broad scale. Gays are just one more "alien" type fueling their paranoia about the breakdown in the moral (sic) fabric as they’ve known it through all their decades of social stagnation.

At least as importantly, these people, in their profession of Christianity, do irreparable harm to the image of true Christianity as represented by the Sermon on the Mount. These jokers will offer whatever twisted interpretation of the Bible they require to satisfy their agenda, for example, as they used in the past to justify segregation.

Thanks. As usual, you’re a sweetheart. )

Fair question.

Some say a shining city with mansions, and streets of gold. If one has been "good".

Some say a lake of fire and brimstone, if one has been judged, and found wanting.

But maybe not. Perhaps Heaven, or Hell, is nothing more than the presence, or absence, of God. For eternity.

That's kind of a short-hand, personalized version. I'm sure someone like Dwain Lee could do a much better job with that question, than I ever could.

First, for the record, I have never asserted a belief that we are worm food after death, and that death is an end. Just as I feel the religious theories presented are short sighted in their imagination, so is the belief that worm food is the only alternative.

My belief, personally, is that our current mental apparatus is insufficiently equipped to grasp the nature of our non-corporeal existence. To wrestle an explanation into some earthly idiom with a moral and a happy ending I feel does a grave injustice to the truth. The novel Flatland did a wonderful job of illustrating the ignorance a limited dimensional being has toward the higher dimensions. A great read.

I dont presume to have any answers on the meaning of life or what happens next. I do definitely assert that it is impossible for any human to be supplied with such answers, and therein lies my intolerance of people who claim they do.

The question you pose reminds me of Pascal's wager, where (if I understand it correctly), its in the best interest of an individual to 'believe' in 'God', as the potential consequences would favor that choice. But I never saw such beliefs as a choice. I would love to subscribe to many of the different theologies I've heard. Life would be so much easier if I could look all the answers up in a book, and know in the end all will be ok, because I joined the club and will be provided for. But, alas, my cognitive facility doesnt allow me to believe that anymore than it allows me to believe in Santa Claus (which also, would be glorious to believe again).

Ah, yes...they are such an ignorant bunch down here, aren't they?

Such rabble.....

Yeah, those are the types of places that I imagined as a child.

I was watching a show on The Science Channel the other day that was about all sorts of strange animal life (some would say down right alien in nature) that exists in our oceans. I sat there thinking, "why wasn't I born into the squid species? Strange, huh? For a brief moment I was convinced that something had caused the thing that is me, my consciousness as it were, to inhabit the body of a human instead of a squid. I certainly do not have all the answers. Do not tell my children that! Nobody does, but I just find it strange that the being that is made up of my thoughts and consciousness is in this particular body of this particular species of animal. It gives one pause.

I’ll pose the question a bit differently. What is the "we" that might survive death.

I’ve seen some here clinging to the idea that the mind is non-material and therefore distinct from the brain per se. Yet there is so much overwhelming scientific evidence that what we call "mind" is a self-referential functionality of the brain.

Read about all the cases of damaged brains producing all sorts of abnormal functions of the mind. Virtually any decent book on brain science will be replete with such examples. At the same time, there is all the anecdotal evidence from those who have used hallucinatory drugs, such as "acid."

Further, and perhaps more tellingly, the self-referential consciousness -- the "I am" that embodies our sensation of self -- has been observed to vanish when certain areas of the brain are damaged. In fact, there is much evidence that children begin to develop this sense of self as distinct from the environment typically only some time after the age of one. We also have convincing evidence that some higher primates exhibit this same self-identity.

So what is this "we" or "me" that might survive death? How is it distinct from the material world which the scientific method has demonstrated to be the producer of the sensation at least most of us associate with the "me" that might survive death?

This is not a rhetorical question. I am always receptive to learning.

(oops, this overlaps some other very recent posts here, but maybe it adds something to the question.)

Jolly,

Knock it off! That was not a broad brush statement by me. Nor does it necessarily refer to any partcular area of the country, except for one part of the statement which I stand by. If you choose to take it personally, that's your business.

I might use more words, but I think you did pretty well with only a few. Plus, remember that my formal pastoral education doesn't start till September.

I didn't take it personally, but it was a broad-brush statement. So I just took it, and ran.

You might be surprised, if you venture down here, who you get to sit by in church. It could be a millworker, or it could be a university department head.

Folks in New York City talk fast. They walk fast. They eat fast. Wouldn't surprise me if they pulled out a stopwatch before making love.

Down here we're a little slower. We talk a bit slower, we tend to enjoy a meal, and we tend to saunter, instead of power-walk. Shucks, we even think that religion can play an important and inspirational role in man's life, and that being "washed in the blood" might even be a good thing, for all concerned.

That doesn't make us ignorant, bigoted, or dumb.

Well observed.

Jolly,

This might sound patronizing but the wife and I have been down to Cajun country several times. We can't get enough of it, including the people as well as the cuisine. You don't have to sell me on it.

Further, where we live out in Suffolk County, Long Island is a lot more laid back than NYC. At the same time, it is still corrupted with too many people locked into impressing, rather than breaking bread with, their neighbors. You Jolly in particular would always be welcome at our table and to our hospitality. (Please don't judge my wife by me. She is truly my better half. What can I say? I got lucky. )

You are right. But. What does walking slower or faster, or who you sit by in church, or for that matter whether you even attend church have to do with the discussion.

IMHO, reading the posts above have made me even more a supporter of the separation of church and state.

Don't misunderstand what I say. While I am very conservative in my spiritual life, and what some what might call religious, I do not want one to be tainted with the other, or anyone's version of either.

Render unto Caesar........

Render unto God ..........

No dark princes here. See we liberal Democrats can be black and white too.

Jolly, Ivory: I think you missed this link, too.

"In Topeka, Hate Mongering Is a Family Affair
By ERIC ROSTON



Tuesday, Feb. 22, 2005


Residents of Topeka, Kans., accustomed to seeing daily placards with such coarse slogans as GOD HATES FAGS and GOT AIDS YET?, have learned to put up with the family responsible for those signs in the same way some people endure living next to screeching railroad tracks. Now they're enduring the typically grating campaign of a young member of the clan who is trying to unseat the first openly gay member of the city council.

Thanks to the Phelps family, this small, gossipy city can perhaps lay claim to being the homophobia capital of the U.S. Since 1991, the Rev. Fred Phelps, 75, has led his family in campaigns against everyone from "sodomites" and "fag enablers" to victims of 9/11. More recently the Phelpses initiated a referendum on the March 1 ballot that would prohibit laws protecting gay rights. The family is also supporting one of Fred's 53 grandchildren, Jael Phelps, 20, a prim nursing student who once picketed Matthew Shepard's funeral, in her run against city councilwoman Tiffany Muller, 26, who co-sponsored a law late last year that shields gays from discrimination in city hiring. Since there are two other contenders in the race, Jael is given little chance of winning. But the referendum could succeed even though most Topekans, including those who signed the referendum petition, say they oppose the Phelpses' tactics. "A lot of people don't outwardly agree with what Phelps is doing, but behind the scenes they do," says Republican state representative Lana Gordon. --By Eric Rosto"

My piano lesson is in a few minutes. Will respond to some stuff later.

I'd comment on the pope's recent statements, but this IS a family friendly forum, and anything I would have to say about the pope and his ridiculous ideas is FAR from family friendly.

Oh, one more thing. I can absolutely see why gay people, even those who are non-religious, would care what the pope says. He is influential, and people will take his views as permission to be downright nasty to those who are gay. There is plenty of reason to be concerned.

Jeffrey, you mean this Fred Phelps?



:p

I was just mulling over Jolly's post about the presence of evil in the world, and then this photo shows up to prove it.

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

Jolly: "Folks in New York City talk fast. They walk fast. They eat fast. ...
Down here we're a little slower. We talk a bit slower, we tend to enjoy a meal, and we tend to saunter, instead of power-walk. ...
That doesn't make us ignorant, bigoted, or dumb."

Jolly, you are neither ignorant or dumb, and you know it. You are clearly verbally talented, and savvy about life. What makes you bigoted, however, has nothing to do with the pace of life you prefer. It has to do with your lack of understanding of other people's way of life. How many close gay friends do you actually have? What do you actually know about them, other than what you read in some book?

You keep playing some reverse-snobbery thing about how the elitist Yankees in the nothern cities don't respect or know about the honest rural southerners down in Dixie. Well, as you like to say, respect is earned. How about that game be played in reverse? What respect for the way of life of gays in the Castro or Chelsea do you show? Have you visited there? Or what about all the gays (the majority, in fact) who just live "ordinary" lives, have jobs, pay taxes, own homes, serve in the military, and play the piano? How much respect do you show them in your views?

You want those in the big cities to stop looking down on you as a bigoted culteral hick, stop treating others as if you were a bigoted cultural hick. Has nothing to do with where you live.

And before you make any assumptions about me, I married a southern gal. Mrs. Jeffrey grew up in Columbus, Georgia (we were married in her father's home), and she went to Georgia Tech. Her brother went to Tulane. I know New Orleans is not really Louisiana to you, but it's there on the map.

So drop the 'tude. If you come up to New York, the first overpriced Belgian beer is on me.

Quote[/b]
gay marriage, which is the secular murder of a
God-given gift.
Unquote[/b]

Marriage is a gift? I'd like to return mine for a refund, please.

So, what used to be a pre-arranged agreement between a father and the future hubby, had a dowry ready, could only marry in the same soc-eco class (although I think the upper-classes had more freedom in that choice) is a gift? Not to mention the Bible mentioning a woman having to marry her rapist if assaulted? What a loving god.

Phelps is a pest, and not a harmless one.
Gryphon the picture you posted is about the only time I've seen this hater smile. It really doesn't look like him at all, not nearly "American Gothic" enough and missing most of the frenzied defensiveness that he usually radiates.


His latest placards include some that read "God Bless the Tsunami."
He's so full of hate that ANY Bad news is good news to him. Just standard human hatred is too diluted for Fred, he needs that concentrated, divine hate that can only come from aligning oneself with a God of retribution.

There are counter protesters now, prior to next weeks voting, with signs saying "Say "NO" to Phelps " and "Tell Fred Where to Go". A couple of days ago they were squared off across the street from one another, but nothing came of it and I don't think anyone expected anything to come from their close proximity. (Phelps' group had followed the newbies, but they follow the rules closely enough to avoid the shame of losing their sham. )


Before Menningers packed up and left for Texas, there existed a fairly large group of highly educated, non-flappable, respected and financially affluent "logic donors" in the community that gave a little balance to the equation and even sponsored large newspaper adds in which they asked Fred to tone it down a bit and basically gave instructions for a communal eye roll to the rest of the populace. ( This when Fred picketed the funeral of that kid that got beat to death in Colorado or Wyoming a few years ago.)

Since this group has left, the Phelps's have been pretty much unfettered, Most just try to ignore them, but you can watch animated graffiti just so often without wondering again why this guy picketed the Midwest barber-shop quartet finals a two years ago. You s'pose its really TRUE what they say about Tenors?

He's laughable but not that many are laughing. If the initiative he sponsored on the ballet passes, he'll probably buy radio time to crow. The man is a lawyer that has been banned from EVERY court he has every practiced in, and now we have to go out in the cold to make sure he doesn't slip one past us.


Topeka Bob

I don't think you'll find anyone here defending Phelps, Bob.

My guess is that most people (in the East, North, West, OR South) have more close gay friends than they would suppose.

ravenswood