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#903213 - 02/17/05 10:20 AM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
Mr. E Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 426
 Quote:
Originally posted by kenny:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Mr. E:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kenny:
If humans start having sex before age 18 it is irresponsible and unrealistic to not teach them about birth control and safe sex.
[/b]
And if kids don't start taking sex and abstinence more seriously, then the ages are only going to get younger, and the problems are only going to get bigger. Kids don't take abstinence or sex seriously because birth control and condoms, etc. provide them an easy way out. And as kids start having sex younger and younger, they are progessively less informed, and make worse and worse decisions. [/b]
Sound like Europe's statistics prove you wrong and proves America is just plain unrealistic. [/b]
Care to elaborate, or do you just want to pass vague statements off as facts, like the NY Times does. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just not familiar with the European statistics you speak of.

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#903214 - 02/17/05 10:30 AM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
Let me tell you about my great-grandparents' shotgun wedding at ages 16 and 15, respectively. In 1904.

Or maybe my great-grand aunt whose son was born when she was 17. In 1910. (Oh, yes, she eventually married a nice man. In 1943.) [/b]
I'm sorry you're family is so promiscuous. ;\)

Seriously...I'm a firm believer in shotgun weddings, and I think they are quite appropriate. If someone's man and woman enough to make a baby, they ought to be adult enough to take care of it.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#903215 - 02/17/05 10:36 AM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
Mr. E

I'm quoting bcarey here:
"Other developed countries focus much more on contraception. The upshot is that while teenagers in the U.S. have about as much sexual activity as teenagers in Canada or Europe, Americans girls are four times as likely as German girls to become pregnant, almost five times as likely as French girls to have a baby, and more than seven times as likely as Dutch girls to have an abortion. Young Americans are five times as likely to have H.I.V. as young Germans, and teenagers' gonorrhea rate is 70 times higher in the U.S. than in the Netherlands or France."

Does this not disturb some you?

End of quote.


If I had boys or girls I'd begin teaching them about sex and birth control and STDs as they hit puberty.
I'd also tell them there are good reasons to delay gratification till they are adult.
But if they can't wait there are techniques that take care of business without involving another person.
Sheesh, at least give them that guilt free.

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#903216 - 02/17/05 11:13 AM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
tcmod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 862
Loc: NC
 Quote:
Originally posted by kenny:
But if they can't wait there are techniques that take care of business without involving another person.
Sheesh, at least give them that guilt free. [/b]
Yeah, Today's parents can't even manage to talk about sex there's no way Dad is going to be able to tell his son it is okay to beat the bishop when he needs to.
;\)

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#903217 - 02/17/05 11:32 AM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
Why can't parents talk to their kids about sex?

And don't just cop out and say, "You'd never understand till you have kids."

Really.
Why?

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#903218 - 02/17/05 11:34 AM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
My point is that unmarried teenagers have been having sex since forever. This is not a "modern" issue.
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#903219 - 02/17/05 11:35 AM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by kenny:
Why can't parents talk to their kids about sex?

And don't just cop out and say, "You'd never understand till you have kids."

Really.
Why? [/b]
"ooooh, gross!!!! Don't talk to me about that!!! Of course, I'm going to wait til I get married!!! We already talked about that at school!!! No way!!! (child rolls eyes, throughout) That's disgusting!!! I would never do that!!!"
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#903220 - 02/17/05 11:36 AM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
kenny Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 7051
So where did all those negative associations come from?
Are kids born with hang ups, embarrassment and guilt?

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#903221 - 02/17/05 11:37 AM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
Look at the unwed pregnancy rate in Sweden.
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#903222 - 02/17/05 11:44 AM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by kenny:
So where did all those negative associations come from?
Are kids born with hang ups, embarrassment and guilt? [/b]
You tell me.

It's important IMHO to teach the difference between taste and smut. And there are appropriate times and inappropriate times to have sex. To be discreet, discriminatory, not promiscuous and to be safe. So, I talk about it anyway and put up with any rolled eyes. Better safe than sorry.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#903223 - 02/17/05 11:58 AM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
mamma2my3sons Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/03
Posts: 746
Loc: Midwest of the great USA
Jolly said:
 Quote:
"Seriously...I'm a firm believer in shotgun weddings, and I think they are quite appropriate. If someone's man and woman enough to make a baby, they ought to be adult enough to take care of it."
Or at least adult enough to adopt the baby out to a couple who can.

My thoughts regarding "unplanned pregnancies" although of course there are some real surprises, from what I've seen more pregnancies(especially if the women are older & wanting a baby or have been in the relationship for quite a while &/or see no ring coming their way) are only unplanned by the men[/b] involved ;\)

Personally if one of our boys was very young & got a girl pregnant (we have talked to our older one, as Justme said, rolled eyes & all \:D ), we would not push marriage, unless[/b] they were continuing to "knock the boots". First pregnancy especially as a teen, could be an accident, however if you keep doing the same thing, it could just happen again. Thus for the childs sake, time to grow up.

My thoughts, my 2c you may deserve change.

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#903224 - 02/17/05 12:05 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Mamma, we have boys as well. I've also talked to them about "not" pressuring girls into sex with all the "if you love me, you will" begging that goes on. Poor girls feel guilty whether they do or they don't. But, the 21 yr. old informs me the girls are more agressive than the guys.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#903225 - 02/17/05 12:34 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
How interesting that so many people place more credence in a nostalgic fantasy of what the past was like and in their belief of the way things SHOULD be rather than in statistics which show how things really are.

Why do people do that? Are their children that meaningless to them that they are willing to risk their future because of myths and propoganda rather than factual evidence?

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#903226 - 02/17/05 12:40 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by RZ:
How interesting that so many people place more credence in a nostalgic fantasy of what the past was like and in their belief of the way things SHOULD be rather than in statistics which show how things really are.

Why do people do that? Are their children that meaningless to them that they are willing to risk their future because of myths and propoganda rather than factual evidence? [/b]
Go on.... Tell us what you say to your kids.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#903227 - 02/17/05 12:53 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by RZ:
How interesting that so many people place more credence in a nostalgic fantasy of what the past was like and in their belief of the way things SHOULD be rather than in statistics which show how things really are.

Why do people do that? Are their children that meaningless to them that they are willing to risk their future because of myths and propoganda rather than factual evidence? [/b]
You can access a fairly interesting study at NIH through PubMed, that compares illegitimate birth rates in the U.S., during the decades of the 40s and the 70s. One would expect the 40s to be quite high, because of the war situation, and God Forbid, we did not have sex education within the average classroom. I doubt we had sex education in the unusual classroom, either.

Funny thing happened on the way to the forum...the 70s rates were higher...a good deal higher.

Now, I'm all for nostalgia, and the old ways, when the old ways work. Apparently, something our grandparents were teaching their kids, was something that works better than what we are doing today.

And guess what, sport? Since more emphasis has been placed on abstinence education, rather than merely how to slide a condom on without tearing it, teenage birth rates have dropped in the latter 90s, and continue to do so today!

Yep, teenagers are teenagers, and things will happen. But it is a lot better for everyone, if it happens at a later time in their life, when they are more mature, and able to handle the consequences.

Nostalgia? Sounds to me like too many people are still stuck in the 60s, or in the hey-day of disco....
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#903228 - 02/17/05 12:58 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
 Quote:
Originally posted by RZ:
How interesting that so many people place more credence in a nostalgic fantasy of what the past was like and in their belief of the way things SHOULD be rather than in statistics which show how things really are.

Why do people do that? Are their children that meaningless to them that they are willing to risk their future because of myths and propoganda rather than factual evidence? [/b]
Go on.... Tell us what you say to your kids. [/b]
I teach them from an early age that sex is private, is an expression of love and is not an impersonal recreational activity. As they grow older, I give them more information about the risks involved and teach them abstinence is the moral and ethical choice. As they get older still, I teach themabout sexual urges and the need for self-discipline, about the damage that can be done from early sexual activity and about their responsibility if they should impregnate a young girl (I only have sons; all of whom are well into or past puberty), and about contraception, including how it works, why it works and the chances it will not work all the time.

I do not fear teaching them both morality as well as practical information. Do you?

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#903229 - 02/17/05 01:08 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by RZ:
I do not fear teaching them both morality as well as practical information. Do you? [/b]
What would give you that impression? Because I said my kids (well only one of them, the other was quite comfortable) rolled his eyes?
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#903230 - 02/17/05 01:13 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
I teach them from an early age that sex is private, is an expression of love and is not an impersonal recreational activity. As they grow older, I give them more information about the risks involved and teach them abstinence is the moral and ethical choice. As they get older still, I teach themabout sexual urges and the need for self-discipline, about the damage that can be done from early sexual activity and about their responsibility if they should impregnate a young girl (I only have sons; all of whom are well into or past puberty), and about contraception, including how it works, why it works and the chances it will not work all the time.

I do not fear teaching them both morality as well as practical information. Do you?
Therefore, would it be safe to assume that you are in favor of no governmental indoctrination in sexual mores at the K-12 level?
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#903231 - 02/17/05 01:24 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
 Quote:
I teach them from an early age that sex is private, is an expression of love and is not an impersonal recreational activity. As they grow older, I give them more information about the risks involved and teach them abstinence is the moral and ethical choice. As they get older still, I teach themabout sexual urges and the need for self-discipline, about the damage that can be done from early sexual activity and about their responsibility if they should impregnate a young girl (I only have sons; all of whom are well into or past puberty), and about contraception, including how it works, why it works and the chances it will not work all the time.

I do not fear teaching them both morality as well as practical information. Do you?
Therefore, would it be safe to assume that you are in favor of no governmental indoctrination in sexual mores at the K-12 level? [/b]
Please define for me "governmental indoctrination of sexual mores."

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#903232 - 02/17/05 01:31 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by ny1911:
I read an obituary of a woman recently that was 62. She had a number of great-great grand children. [/b]
Loretta Lynn was a mother at 14 and a grandmother at 28.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#903233 - 02/17/05 01:35 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
I'm sorry you're family is so promiscuous. ;\)

Seriously...I'm a firm believer in shotgun weddings, and I think they are quite appropriate. If someone's man and woman enough to make a baby, they ought to be adult enough to take care of it. [/b]
Umm.. getting married and taking care of a baby have very little to do with one another.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#903234 - 02/17/05 01:39 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
But, the 21 yr. old informs me the girls are more agressive than the guys. [/b]
Dang!! I was born about 20 years too early!!!
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#903235 - 02/17/05 01:46 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by bcarey:
[QUOTE] You see, for all the carnage in President Bush's budget, one program is being showered with additional cash - almost three times as much as it got in 2001. It's "abstinence only" sex education, and the best research suggests that it will cost far more lives than the Clinton administration's much more notorious sex scandal.


[/b]
Now what's going on in the above paragraph..? I assume that the notorious sex scandal of Clinton's cost no lives.. unless you want to count the ones that could have lived if his sperm was allowed to meet an egg or two.

Now if you count the amount of viable sperm and assume they met up with viable eggs, maybe 10,000 would be dead if they were aborted.... and then the number of lives lost because of the lack of liberal sex education would have to be determined...

(other than than paragraph :rolleyes: it's a great paper)
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#903236 - 02/17/05 01:47 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
Dang!! I was born about 20 years too early!!! [/b]
:D
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#903237 - 02/17/05 02:06 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Please define for me "governmental indoctrination of sexual mores."
Be happy to.

When what the government tells your child over-rides, or is in conflict with what should be personal decisions made by the child's parents, within the confines of one's residence.

Squaring that with the original proposal of this thread, and abstinence, since abstinence is not against any general societal more, or major religion that I can think of, it may be the only[/b] governmental program that could pass the above standard.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#903238 - 02/17/05 02:08 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
 Quote:
Originally posted by ny1911:
I read an obituary of a woman recently that was 62. She had a number of great-great grand children. [/b]
Loretta Lynn was a mother at 14 and a grandmother at 28. [/b]
But, in the context of this thread, Loretta was not pregnant when she married. Or, at least that's what she told me.

I could check I guess, but I believe her...
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#903239 - 02/17/05 02:10 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
I'm sorry you're family is so promiscuous. ;\)

Seriously...I'm a firm believer in shotgun weddings, and I think they are quite appropriate. If someone's man and woman enough to make a baby, they ought to be adult enough to take care of it. [/b]
Umm.. getting married and taking care of a baby have very little to do with one another. [/b]
Uh, they should have.

Which, is the point of much of this thread.....
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#903240 - 02/17/05 02:19 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
 Quote:
Please define for me "governmental indoctrination of sexual mores."
Be happy to.

When what the government tells your child over-rides, or is in conflict with what should be personal decisions made by the child's parents, within the confines of one's residence.[/b]
I don't understand. Give me an example of a widespread government policy where the government is teaching personal decisions that the child is expected to make when it comes to sexual activity.

Or are you simply arguing that schools should not provide information the parents do not give their children? This, of course, occurs in all sorts of academic fields, and thus is very common.

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#903241 - 02/17/05 02:57 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
RZ:

You know d*mn well that for years the liberals were foisting contraception on kids in schools to the objections of parents. Abstinence was a non starter for the policy wonks. Everything happening today is because the people of the US got fed up with the liberal agenda that many Americans found morally offensive.

You also know that your argument about schools providing information is a straw man -- whether a parent is capable of teaching technical information such as the Table of Elements is not a rationale for showing a 13 year old how to put a condom on a banana in a class demonstration.
_________________________
Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"

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#903242 - 02/17/05 03:02 PM Re: Bush's Sex Scandal
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by ivorythumper:
Everything happening today is because the people of the US got fed up with the liberal agenda that many Americans found morally offensive.


[/b]
The numbers prove it :p .
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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