Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum FAQ - Piano Forum Kawai vs. Boston

Who cares who makes what piano? Do you like it? There's no objection to the quality of the piano is there? The price is right isn't it? then what's the real reason you're not buying this piano?

How about that? let's not spend all of our time trying to convince our customers that one brand is just as good as another. Let's focus our time on the instrument in front of us at the time. If it isn't the piano for them, then there's nothing you can do about it. You can't force them to buy! Well some people can force customers to buy but that's how they work. Come on people what's really important?

BC

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BC:

"...You can't force them to buy! Well some people can force customers to buy but that's how they work..."

That's right BC, sales weasels use deceit.
ej

It obvious you've never sold anything.

Quote

let's not spend all of our time trying to convince our customers that one brand is just as good as another. Let's focus our time on the instrument in front of us at the time. If it isn't the piano for them, then there's nothing you can do about it. You can't force them to buy! Well some people can force customers to buy but that's how they work. Come on people what's really important?

BC

You're missing the entire point. In the example I gave, I wasn't trying to force anyone to do anything. With me, a customer can make any choice they wish - they can buy piano A, they can buy piano B, or they can not buy anything from me at all. But they should make their decision using facts, not misinformation from a self important blowhard teacher who hasn't taken the time to either learn about the pianos or who doesn't seem to understand that not everyone can or will afford the one she wants.

Someone said I did a bad thing by not pulling the teacher over to the side instead of the customer. This is nonsense. The teacher isn't the one who is about to spend money. The teacher isn't the one who will own it. If the teacher is being a hindrance to the parents being able to make an informed decision through her own ignorance and ego, then what she is doing to harm the parents should be exposed. It is up to her to learn what she is doing wrong. It is not up to me to worry about her feelings - my loyalty is to the customer. And it has nothing to do with "putting the teacher down" in order to "elevate myself". *I* didn't fit into it in any way. If the teacher was the all knowing wizard of knowledge she is claiming to be, she would have known the pianos weren't what they claimed, wouldn't you agree? Don't you think you'd know the difference between a Kimball and a Kawai? All I was doing was letting her show the value of her advice. If her knowledge and information was worth anything, she'd have told them the piano she thought was a Kawai was not as good as the piano she thought was a Kimball, wouldn't she? That was just as much a possibility as what always happened. So I wasn't doing anything to the teacher. The words came out of her mouth, not mine, and if her advice was based on knowledge of pianos (which is what the customer was trusting her for) then she'd have caught it right away. The person who needed to know she was an idiot was the customer about to spend money, not her.

It is interesting that the ones who have voiced their dismay at this are teachers. Has the bitten dog barked here?

Larry,

Now if the Kimball had been carefully prepared and the Kawai (with the Kimball fallboard) hadn't been tuned or serviced in years the teacher might have been right. I'm sure that you would never do this, but I wouldn't completely dismiss the possibility for others. And there are more subtle versions of this, such as the dealer I visited which had a Weber WSG57 sale priced right near the door when I walked in. I had to walk around it to get to any of the other grands. It played very nicely. The pianos which I came to try, Petrof/Weinbach, unfortunately, made a very poor impression. Although I am just a piano teacher I could tell the difference. Was the dealer trying to sell the Weber, a line which he was discontinuing? Perhaps. At another dealer the largest Young Chang JP (7' 4" I think) was sitting up on a stage-like display platform. It didn't play as well as the PG 5' 9" in the row of grands on the floor. I suspect in this case it was just neglect on the part of the dealer.

I may not always reveal all my opinions to the salesperson, but I have to admit that I have played pianos with a lesser name which performed better in the store than the "big guys." After all, I just purchased an Estonia!

While you're at it, do you have a BMW 330xi wagon with a Chevrolet Cavalier nameplate on it for the Chevy price. I'll be right over!!

Sorry for my naivete, but are there REALLY situations where teachers get kickbacks for recommending specific pianos?

I've never heard of this before with teachers (have heard of it with "independent" tech evaluations), just curious.

Thx
Nina

Absolutely! Not all but qiute a few! I've had some say, what is my commission, deduct that from the final price to my student, not often though..

I've also had 'one' not too long ago advise me that the store down the street offered a larger com than we did and would take her student there with no concern to which piano was better suited for the student..

larry,

my comments weren't directed towards you. If you took them personally then please forgive me. I am so tired of the same old lame sales pitch. All i was trying to do is focus my time selling what is infront of the customers at that moment. If you spend time pulling out the features, advantages, and benefits of that instrument then overcome objections (which there shouldn't be any if you have done a good job of opening and qualifying) then the customers will tell you if they want the instrument. But they will only tell you if they believe that the benefits they are getting are worth more than the amount of money they are paying. We shouldn't waste our time forcing an instrument down someone's throat. (not that that's what you do... just a statment for the masses) My sales approach works Marvelously. And i have enjoyed every second of working with people so that they get what they need... not what I think they should want. Give it a try... you may like it.

BC

Nice evolution of the thread, with some nice viewpoints. But I think I'll head back to the original post...

Just from talking to people, to techs, and from internet sampling, it is my impression that the Boston owners that are most pleased with their pianos performance, are those who have gone "the extra mile", and given their pianos the extra TLC they require.

So here is the question, based upon Like's Dad's original assertion: Do Boston pianos, specifically the grands, have more potential than the Kawai RX series?

And if they do, is that attributable to the scale differences, or the different hammers? Or some other quality?

At the piano party at Classical Grands, Alex had two M&H BBs. One sounded pretty much like you'd expect an M&H to sound. Big bass, broad, affecting sound in the tenor, full, not overly-bright sound in the treble, but with excellent sustain. In short, an M&H.

Then he had another one, which was subject to much discussion. It didn't sound in the least "like an M&H". Bass reduced, but very clear. Tenor extreemely even, but also dart-like, even laser-like. Bright treble. It sounded like a "European" piano (a Bluthner Model 4? a Sauter?)

My initial take was not to like it. It didn't sound like what I expected. But when I was able to put aside the fact that it was an M&H and just listen to the sound (ably produced by Steven Metzler), it was an extremely nice instrument. I am absolutely convinced that if the fallboard was covered up, virtually no one would ever have guessed it was an M&H.

I heard Norbert take a 6'10" Young Chang and voice it in such a way so as to have it resemble a 5'6" Estonia -- not totally successful, but take the name off the fallboard, and one would never guess it was a YC. Darrell Fandrich offered (I didn't ask - he offered) to spend a day to make his 5'8" Fandrich sound like a 1914 6'4" Knabe. And I heard a tech/dealer take a 6'3" Pearl River, put about 40 hours into it, to make the sound resemble a Steinway M that he had standing right next to it. (I think he used it as the benchmark.)

In short, at least on the basis of sound, I think we are being far too hard on the teachers. Dealers and techs claim their capacity to change the sound of a piano -- why should we be surprised when teachers (or even performers) can be confused?

Shantinik
Disclosure: I am neither buying nor selling anything, and so I am free!

Although this is off topic I wanted to respond::

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Larry:

Someone said I did a bad thing by not pulling the teacher over to the side instead of the customer. This is nonsense...


Sure it’s nonsense, you can’t humiliate the one you dislike. After all it is the teacher that is the villain here. Somehow the one who helps develop the talent suddenly becomes the “idiot”. True, the teacher isn’t the one about to spend the money. True, the teacher isn’t the one who will own it. It is the teacher that is the “hindrance”. Let’s just have dealers “teach”. They know so much. Yeah, I know that’s ludicrous. But this does have something to do with putting the teacher down. I’ve read some previous posts and there does “seem” to be some pent up resentment. It sounds like some sales have been “lost” because of some “know it all” teachers. Yes, I said before there are some “know it all” teachers, performers, technicians and dealers. But, I don’t feel it is up to the dealer to throw down the gauntlet and “correct” everybody. Presenting the facts is what I believe the dealer should be doing. Let the buyer, the adult buyer make their own decision. I just feel that tactic is underhanded and unprofessional. You said you were letting the teacher “show the value of her advice”. Wrong, showing the parents and students. Yes, the words came out of her mouth but those words were based on perceived truth portrayed by the dealer. Larry, I believe you are a very knowledgeable person and you have offered a tremendous amount of valuable information on this forum and I’m sure many other venues. More than I’ll ever know. I don’t doubt or question your expertise for a second. The only place I disagree with you is the manner and tactic here. I understand you have come across some teachers that have acted ignorantly. I don’t think it is the perogative of the dealer to publicly humiliate the teacher. If this kind of situation were handled in a more diplomatic manner you would stand to gain more in ways other than money.

It is interesting that the ones who have voiced their dismay at this are teachers. Has the bitten dog barked here?

You tend to stereotype people and it seems you might be misled by your “assumptions” here. I would hope all sensitive people within the music community would be dismayed at this tactic. By community, I mean teachers, technicians, sales professionals, dealers, performers, pianophiles as well as all reputable business people. Yes, and hopefully slowly educate all those “know it alls”. Also, you really don’t know people that well. I don’t consider myself a great teacher but I do feel I am still learning. I for one, attend the regular monthly PTG meetings in my area and have studied piano technology for some time. I don’t claim to know as much as you do about the piano but I am learning and I am not above attending those meetings. I might add as you probably well know many RPT’s don’t even attend them. I imagine they are the “know it alls” in their field. This is one piano teacher that doesn’t fit your stereotype and isn’t above learning all aspects of the piano. I can’t expect you to agree with me but since this place is a vehicle for discussions I wanted to register my opinion no matter how flawed you think it is. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

P.S. Just as an aside, another "proof" that I am still trying to learn:: I wrote an e-mail to you last week asking you about the Hallet & Davis piano I believe built by Dongbei in China. Although I am not fond of Asian products I am willing to learn about them and the market so I wrote you because I noticed it was advertised on your website and my question to you was asking if you could inform me of a Hallet & Davis dealer in my area. I would just like to learn. I received NO response.

good job! You really know how to make your points clear. I agree totally!

BC

I have had my share of problems with "teacher and Tech bandits" but I too disagree with Larry's approach and attitude. In fact, I am reather surprised that he takes such a harsh position.

Whew.....

First of all, I didn't use this tactic routinely. It came about after the same two or three teachers kept doing the same thing.

Let me tell you about one of these "brilliant" teachers. She had a student who was extremely talented, a girl of about 15. Her father was filty rich. He could have bought any piano he wanted to buy. But he was also a self absorbed jerk, and he refused to buy her a piano at all. All she had to practice on at home was a Casio keyboard.

In spite of it, she won competition after competition, until she had worked her way up to and won the state competition. All of a sudden her father was getting patted on the back and a lot of attention, and all of a sudden he realized *he* was looking bad for not having bought his daughter a real piano. So he decided to save face and agreed to buy her any piano the teacher said she should have.

At the time I sold Kawai. The teacher's ego began to swell over getting to "personally" pick the piano, a GS-70 Kawai (7'6"). She was known to be a pompous know-it-all old bag by every teacher in the teacher's association anyway - an organization I might add that I have been quite active in local to my business and am well respected by most of them. Also, the teacher was almost slobbering giddy over getting to "spend" all that money.

The teacher decided that just letting the guy buy the piano wasn't good enough. SHE had to have a little time in the limelight too. So she turned to him and said "it's a great piano, but it needs a little work." The father turned to me and told me to make the teacher happy, and once I had done so, he would write the check.

I showed her every respect. A total of five different techs voiced the piano for her, never pleasing her. The action was regulated 3 times by three different techs, and she was never pleased. 5 bass strings were replaced at her command, even though there was nothing wrong with them. With each voicing, I tried to tell her as politely as I could that what she was asking for would ruin the hammers. It didn't matter. SHE was the all knowing, all seeing "professional" - I was just a mechanic. She even told me that, using those words. She said in fact, "I can understand why you wouldn't know anything about the musical aspects of a piano - after all, you're just a repairman."

All through this, which covered about a 2 month period with her coming in and commanding the entire showroom's attention for 2 to 3 hours every other day, only to find one more thing that wasn't "quite right", the girl kept saying "It sounds just fine to me! Can I get it now?". Finally the father came in while she was there, and said "Is it ready yet?" I kept my mouth shut, and let her finish her own mess. She told him "No. It still has 3 notes in the treble that aren't quite right yet." The father said "If it has so many problems that it can't be fixed in two months of work, it isn't worth owning. My daughter is doing just fine on the keyboard. She can continue to use it." And he turned and walked out of the store, without buyin a piano. In truth, there had never been anything wrong with the piano. It was just fine from the start. But you see, he wasn't going to listen to me, because she had made it clear to him that SHE was the authority on pianos, and I was just a "mechanic". Today, the girl is in her late 20s, married with 2 kids of her own, and she doesn't even play the piano any more. She quit shortly after this fiasco, and never went back.

Now tell me.... at what point would I have been justified in pushing on passed her and taking control of that situation? Don't tell me how I should have taken her aside and explained to her what she was doing. It was tried, and she would have no part of it. SHE was going to show everyone what an "expert" she was.

The switched fallboards was done to combat this kind of teacher. It was not done to make fools of every teacher who came in. I don't know how long you've been in the business, but I've been in it over 32 years, I have a master's degree in piano performance, I was a professional studio musician for many years as well, and I have worked with hundreds upon hundreds of teachers. Most are human, polite, and helpful. Most understand that budget controls what the family can buy, and they deal with what is available within the parent's budget. Most work *with* me. But some are stupid. After a while you get tired of running in circles trying to massage their enormous egos. And once you have pegged a particular teacher as a knothead, you simply figure out a way to let the parents who are putting their trust in her "expert opinion" see just what her opinion is worth. That's what I did with the fallboards. I'm sorry you feel that I was being mean to the teacher somehow, but the teacher wasn't the one spending the money. The one who needed factual data was the one who would write the check. It was no time to be concerned about the feelings of an idiot.

As for not responding to your email, I apologize. I get a ton of email, and it is quite possible I accidentally deleted it without reading it. I have no way of knowing who all the dealers are for Hallet Davis around the country. For that, you need to contact the distributor. You can find their website at http://www.namusic.com

Larry,
WOW!! That teacher must have been one pompous a**!! I had no idea that a person could act so[fill in the blank]. The whole thing sounded like a nightmare. I appreciate you taking the time to explain. Extreme circumstances call for extreme measures?? WOW!! Although I am not certain what I would have done I understand a little better now.

As to the Hallet & Davis request I found two dealers near Chicago and neither of them had anything. Perfection Piano in Downers Grove and Piano Trends in Crystal Lake. I'm forwarding my previous e-mail[fyi]. No need to respond.

Well, time to come back and disagree with 'ol Larry. . .

Why not wait until you're ready to blow a gasket, and then politely say, "Lady, I've had enough. You may think you can fool people around you (including your student's parents), but you can't fool a fool, fool."

(or something like the above)

And then continue with:

Then sit down at the piano, and demonstrate to her (and the student) what she thinks or pretends she hears, and ask if anyone else hears what she's talking about.

You get the idea, I'm sure. Frankly, I'd bet you have also tried the above over the years. . .
=================

OK. . . OK. . . OK. . . I've got it!!

Do you know where the pressure point is on the arms, located on the bone between the bicept and tricept?

What you do, is place your big paw on her arm, and squeeze with your fingertips. When she starts to change color, you look at her with a smile, and say, "doesn't the piano sound wonderful now?" and whisper -- "i know where you live..."

She'll gasp and stutter,"Y-Yes, it's per-r-fect now Larry."

Done deal, everyone's happy.

I have had to deal with piano teachers that to one degree or another resembled the one Larry described, and it is exasperating when the person who is the most influential in the piano buying process creates obstacles to what might have otherwise been a successful pairing of piano and pianist. The teacher (or tech,or brother in-law, etc.)is complicating the process under the guise of protecting the purchaser from their own ignorance or inability to make an informed decision, when somebody should be protecting the purchaser from the ignorant and self important "expert". It is frustrating that much genuine effort and energy that was expended working with the client and creating trust can be shot to heck by this "expert" .
The other side of this coin is that the ignorant, self-important teacher will recommend one of your pianos over a worthy competitor's piano for reasons that have nothing to do with the merits of either piano, the student's needs etc.

The overwhelming majority of piano teachers that I work with are extremely helpful to their students in the piano buying process. Especially the teachers that play at a high level. I have had many situations in which the client wanted to buy a piano that was obviously not the best for their situation, but they wanted to have their teacher come in "just to make sure." The teacher would then come in, and because of their credibility, force their student to make a better choice.
My company has made some of its biggest growth in meeting the valid criteria of some hyper critical and difficult piano teachers who we might have initially dismissed, usually because of communication problems (on both sides).

Hi, Mystic:

Thx for the response about the teachers expecting kickbacks. I'd never heard of that; my teacher readily admitted that I'd be the best person to pick out my piano, since I would be the one playing it. (Great teacher, too bad she's retired!)

Perhaps they should create a new signature line: "professional teaching weasel."

Nina

Jolly, I'd particularly like to hear Larry's and Luke's Dad's ideas on that question, ...we have customers bring up that very question on occasion.

Nina, we do have teachers we give a commission to, and it undoubtedly encourages them to bring students to our store, rather than our competitors. But from what I've learned from them, they have other compelling reasons, too...not just because they're weasels.

For one thing, as you know, in sales we often say, A salesperson is selling...himself! (Or herself).

This should be common knowledge, but here in NE Florida we've heard amazing stories of local piano salespeople who make wild and outrageous claims, harrass customers at home, pressure them to buy with scare tactics or misinformation, or play ridiculous "discount" games; or, who demonstrate such a pompous, know-it-all, condescending attitude to the customer that they leave feeling as if they've been insulted. This behavior doen't go unnoticed by local teachers.

So I know for a fact that teachers bring students in, or simply refer them to us, because their students are trusting them to help them avoid an unpleasant experience with an aggressive or deceptive salesperson. They know we'll try to educate them, sell them what best meets their needs at a fair price, and follow up with good service down the road.

I'm not boasting by any means, just saying that this is what every salesperson should be doing-- helping customers make the right decision. As a matter of gratitude, we're happy to take a small percentage of our profit and give it to the teacher, for their part in helping make the sale.

As Larry notes, some teachers are more ignorant than others, and sometimes you just feel like popping off and disagreeing with them. But I feel it's not really a moral issue. The teacher was ASKED for her opinion and guidance (always arbitrary to some degree anyway), and she gave it. No one is forced to seek advice from only one person, and most people are not so naive as to believe that their teacher is the most, or only qualified person to do so.

And if there is any discontent with a purchase later on, we have a generous trade-in policy to help solve that problem. Again, I don't think the referral process is a moral issue, unless someone is actively misleading the customer, or misrepresenting merchandise.

-Jimbo

Questionable tactics, yes....but BRILLIANT!!!

At some point you just have to say, "Enough! It would be better if you left and tortured someone else."

Great post.