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#908817 - 03/08/02 10:16 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
fmelliott Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/01
Posts: 894
Loc: Virginia
I was just in the process of formulating another response for the curious at the piano manufacting plant and Pique came in and absolutely nailed the proposition down. If you triple the cost of Korean labor and triple the prep costs they pay, maybe four times considering my Young Chang's weirdnesses, you should have it.

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#908818 - 03/08/02 01:27 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Remind me again - why are we doing this? I don't think you can answer this question with any more than a ballpark figure - like Ryan did. But honestly, I like Larry and lbs answers the best. Looking for a piano is a lot like looking for a house. You can estimate a range based on quality, but you can't pinpoint the figure. In the end, the price is what the seller and the buyer can each live with. There are a lot of factors that go into that price, and it isn't going to be the same across the board. It might not even be the same from day to day. It depends on location, overhead, service, how much the seller needs the money, how much the buyer wants what the seller is selling. And I, for one, don't have any problem with that. Jodi

And one other thing, a huge difference in price based on size of the piano doesn't make a lot of sense to me either - it must take close to the same amount of labor to put a 5'8" piano together as is does to put a 7 foot piano together?

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: jodi ]

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#908819 - 03/08/02 07:17 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14137
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Getting ready to present...'the bill', guys!

Remember...it's an all 'FIGURES game', here!

[Some of] you stated what they think is a
"fair" price for a new piano. Approximately.

Others didn't.

Hopefully they won't complain....later.

When they try to get one....THEMSELVES!!

Thanks to all. Please wait.

Some CEO's gonna have to tighten their belt!

Norbert Marten
www.heritagepianos.com
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#908820 - 03/08/02 07:59 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Furthering JBryan's comments, I recommend three excellent books:

1. "Economics in One Lesson," by Henry Hazlitt. A misleadingly titled book that tells you almost everything you ever need to know about economics, in plainspoken language. Technical concepts explained simply, but not condescendingly, in a style so readable that it received great praise from noted non-economist and author H.L. Mencken.

2. "Eat the Rich," by P.J. O'Rourke. Equally misleadingly titled, it offers real-world case studies of the concepts found in Hazlitt's book, and presented with the wit and humor for which O'Rourke is so well known.

3. "The Piano Shop on the Left Bank," by Thad Carhart. Because after the first two books, you'll be looking for something different, and well...this is the Piano Forum, isn't it? \:D

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#908821 - 03/09/02 12:44 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Since everybody here seems to talk so much about price...what,do you think SHOULD a new piano cost?

Let's assume the cost of making any would be the SAME for each model!

Approximately......your guesses,please!
[no unrealistic wish list,folks!]


Mason Hamlin 5'8" or 6'8"....?

Steinway B...................?

Yamaha C3,C5,C7........... .?
Kawai [same sizes]...........?

'German made' 6' or 7'.......?
[include S.P.etc]

Estonia 6'3...................?

Petrof 6'3...................?

Others.........................?

In other words....what's FAIR???

And WHY??

Norbert Marten
www.heritagepianos.com [/b]


I think I will address the actual topic of this thread now. I think I owe as much since I have already dispensed enough horse meat and other horse products so here goes.

First, "What SHOULD a new piano cost" is followed by "Let's assume the cost of making any would be the SAME for each model!" I am having some difficulty with that in light of the final premise "In other words....what's FAIR???" I may not understand Norbert's question but he appears to be saying "assume that any model costs the same to produce so what is a fair price". Actually, a fair price for any item may have little or nothing to do with its cost of production. Strictly speaking, the price is determined by how many are in supply vs. how many are wanted. If I have the ony 5'4" Pearl River in existence and everybody wants one well I can pretty much name my price. That is an extreme example but it illustrates just how "what is fair" may not follow any formula involving production costs, marketing strategies, or CEO compensation. It is supply and demand. Occasionally we will encounter a real bargain and, for the short term, it will go into short supply (e.g. Estonia) but either the supply will increase (perhaps resulting in a drop in quality and subsequent drop in demand) or the price will increase and the demand will naturally fall off. "Guessing" at the list of pianos supplied by Norbert is irrelevant to the central question of "what is a fair price". And, for the reasons I have outlined, the cost of production is irrelevant as well. So Norbert, I have given you what a fair price should be and have told you why without giving you a single number and I maintain that specific numbers are meaningless. That is my answer wit a whole lot more wind and a whole lot less horse..er...products.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#908822 - 03/09/02 02:07 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14137
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
The exercise here has a SPECIFIC purpose and result. There is no argument with any particular thoughts or input by anyone.

Giving 'real numbers' is difficult for everybody. Still, in the end, numbers are the very concrete factors by which our whole economy moves. Not 'high' or 'low', 'fair' or 'unfair'...but REAL,ACTUAL NUMBERS! Actual 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10's. THIS IS.... what our whole economy is...at least in the end...simply based upon!

The people who have approached me to ask the question here perhaps know more about this market than most of us together.

They all know the buts,ifs,coulds,woulds and shoulds inherent in all economic matters.

What they really DON'T KNOW is what a mixed but informed audience like this relates to EXACT and ACTUAL pricing of a given product in the market place vis-a-vis its inherent PERCEPTION of its supposed economic value or "worthiness".

[And 'sales figures', unfortunately don't tell the whole story here!]

"PERCEPTION" to equal "WORTHINESS"!!

Talking here about the most important 'unknown economic variable' in any industry... just ask ANY performing artist!!

When asked for figures....few of us feel comfortable to cough up facts. And this does not limit itself only to anatomical descriptions.....sigh..sigh

It's like asking "how long do YOU actually think you're gonna live??"

Everybody's answer would be : L O N G ..but few of us would DARE to give a specific number!!

But despite our best wishes,philosophies, beliefs and speeches.. in the end...it really
is 'only'...a specific NUMBER... of years.

So, HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK SHOULD A GIVEN PIANO COST? is certainly not easy but also not impossible to answer.

UNLESS we all simply agree...that the given price level and its given fluctuations within
the existing parameters of our present economic system is already completely 'fair' and 'acceptable' as is.

We certainly would make a lot of the grey-haired gents in dark suits eagerly watching this thread more than happy.

And I hate it to say...but most of us....

..knowingly or unknowingly.....ALREADY HAVE!!

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Norbert ]
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#908823 - 03/09/02 09:50 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:

UNLESS we all simply agree...that the given price level and its given fluctuations within
the existing parameters of our present economic system is already completely 'fair' and 'acceptable' as is.

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Norbert ][/b]


Norbert

I think what you have seen here is that most of us have a pretty good grasp of how pricing of a product works. We realize it is not just about manufacturing costs, but there are many other costs involved as well. While many know what has to be involved in setting a price, few know what the numbers of those costs are. Thus, it becomes impossible to give an exact number without simply guessing or without having done some research to find the mean, median, mode etc of what the price is for all similar pianos are selling for.

I suspect most of us would argue the price of a piano should be 'fair." Fair to those who manufacture, market and sell the piano and fair to the consumer. Fairness includes an adequate profit for those providing the piano and fair means giving the consumer a product that is worth the consumer's expenditure.

There is no actual number people like us can really give because there is no way we can know all of the variables off the top of our head. But, when shopping for a specific product, we are all pretty good at figuring out if the price asked is in the "fairness" range.

Now, people who are providing the product may see this as giving them the ability to go to the high end of whatever a price range may be and perhaps exceed it, and then put together a marketing campaign to make people think they received a fair price. Don't think the majority of consumers of such things as fine pianos are stupid. Ignorant when they start shopping, perhaps, but not stupid.

Exceeding the fairness standard is possible, but will only last for so long. First, competition will have other manufacturers undercutting this price and explaining why their piano is just as good as the higher priced one. If this information is form a credible company, consumers listen to this. Secondly, the moment a company gets a reputation for overpricing or for treating customers outside the bound of fairness (bad service, for example), word spreads quickly and any gains that manufacturer made will be lost and will only be regained, if ever, after a lot of work and after spending a lot of money. Even then, their reputation may be so sullied, that they will never recover.

Far better to ask, I think, what is the most someone would/could pay for a specific piano with specific specifications? This then would provide the upper limit that a person is mentally and financially capable of agreeing to, fairness or not. There comes a point in economics where something is priced out of reach for too many people and the market dissolves except for those who need not worry about price.

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#908824 - 03/09/02 10:45 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Well, the way Norbert framed the question (they all cost the same to produce) makes giving an answer difficult. I've often talked about the other variables of location, labor, etc. that make setting a uniform "fair" price all but impossible. But even temporarily removing those variables, for the sake of this thread, leaves the basic question that Norbert has posed.

But I'm not so sure that Norbert isn't playing a game the Forum members. Whether the "suits" are reading this or not, I think it's a very telling exercise: even the piano-savvy members here can't agree on what is a "fair" price for certain pianos, but then many of us turn around and fault the industry (manufacturers and dealers) for not offering a product at a uniformly agreed upon "fair price" that we can't even set the points for the industry to try to hit. I think Norbert is proving a point, and a very good one, at that.

The only specific comment regarding price is that I think the Walter grand is fairly priced if sold between $18,500 and 20,000. As I understand, that's generally the range they actually sell in, so the reason that one is not sitting in my living room right now has nothing to do with dealers asking too much for it.

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#908825 - 03/09/02 11:04 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
"Fairness" or "what is fair" is an elusive and very subjective concept. It is actually a diversion from the reality of what a price should be. The points I outlined above (and maybe not too clearly) are econ 101 and only "fair" in the sense that it is the way it always is consistently. Cost of production has an impact on price but only partially. Marketing may generate more demand (at an added cost) but may not. If I have a warehouse full of pianos that nobody wants, I may have to sell them at below what it cost to produce them just to avoid the ongoing cost of warehousing them. If I have a piano that is in great demand, the price I ask for it may be well above what it cost to produce and it is still "fair". I still say there is only one answer for what this entire list of pianos should cost. Whatever the market will bear.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#908826 - 03/09/02 12:02 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Diarmuid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 219
Come on everyone! We all seem terrified of looking stupid here. Norbert has asked us to give figures. I gave mine (and got chuckled at by the enormously charming Derick). Just stick your necks out a bit more. It's only an internet forum. Have a go.

And as a very demanding consumer, I stick by all my prices. Especially relating to the higher end of the market :p

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Diarmuid ]

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#908827 - 03/09/02 03:31 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14137
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Very well now...let's see...if you were to buy X brand piano, the ones I outlined at the beginning of the thread, and be asked by the dealer..."Mr customer,if you like to haggle a little......
[ and most people DO by the way!] ...then what do you really think to be a 'FAIR' price for this piano here??"

[Notwithstanding the fact that most of us wouldn't even pay a 'FAIR' price if they could get away with even less!!]

Some of us are good 'hagglers'..others.... have missed a career as an economics professor, perhaps at Harvard university.

[And I know that others here would also sympathize with the one customer who came to my store last week and was looking for a 'fairly new' Yamaha grand for about $1000!]

FORWARD, Forum troops, fire your Dollar and
Cents cannons! Gimme [PLEASE!] more figures!!

Thank you for the [painful!] cooperation!

You shall be rewarded!
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#908828 - 03/09/02 04:31 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
ok, norbert, just what is this reward? are your marketing honchos going to give each of us the grand piano of our choice?
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#908829 - 03/09/02 04:38 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Ya want figures? I'll give you figures! And I liked Diurmand's! Remember, this is not what they cost, this is what they SHOULD cost (I play the same game with the Oscars. There's who will win and who SHOULD win!)

Assuming ebony polish for all, except M&H, which only does an ebony satin

5'6" Estonia $12k
6'3" Estonia $15k
6'3" Petrof $14k
6'3" Charles Walter $16k
6'1" Schimmel $16k
6'1" Schimmel diamond series $16,000.01
6'3" Hoffman $16k
6'3" Schulze Pollmann $18k
6'6" Schulze Pollmann $21k
6'3" Pleyel $18k
6'3" Seiler $19k
6'1" Sauter $22k
5'8" Mason & Hamlin $16k
6'10" Mason & Hamlin $32k
6'3" Grotrian $25k
6'3" Bluthner $25k
6'3" Steingraeber $25k
6'3" Bosendorfer $25k
6'3" Bechstein $25k
getting the idea here with the top-tier???

Steinway M $15k
Steinway L $20k
Steinway B $32k

OK, Norbert, how'd I do?

penny

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#908830 - 03/09/02 05:01 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
OK, Norbert, I've never shopped for a new piano in my life, but I've read a bit about them here, and I have a few opinions.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Since everybody here seems to talk so much about price...what,do you think SHOULD a new piano cost?

Let's assume the cost of making any would be the SAME for each model!

Approximately......your guesses,please!
[no unrealistic wish list,folks!]

Mason Hamlin 5'8" or 6'8"....? [/b]


I'd guess about $35,000ish. Probably more than it "should" be, but again, perception or value/resale in a market, even a deluded market, means something, and maybe that makes this a "fair" amount.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:

Steinway B...................? [/b]


About $48,000ish, with the same reasoning above.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:


Yamaha C3,C5,C7........... .?
Kawai [same sizes]...........?
[/b]


$19,000, 21,000, 23,000.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:


'German made' 6' or 7'.......?
[/b]


$22,000 - 24,000.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:


Estonia 6'3...................?

Petrof 6'3...................?

[/b]


$18,000 - 20,000.

So there are my WAG's of prices that I would not be surprised or afraid to see on the various pianos. But I can't say that I think they're "fair", I just don't have enough info to call them that. \:\)

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#908831 - 03/09/02 05:45 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
MacDuff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 560
Loc: Southeast, U.S.A.
I remember when a Steinway M was about 7K, a Baldwin L 6K, a Yamaha C-2 about 5K, and a Kawai KG-2 3.5 K.

All the wonderful :rolleyes: Starrs, Winters, Wurlitzers, and Kimballs were even less.

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#908832 - 03/09/02 06:04 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14137
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
SUPER PENNY !!

Now ........there's a gal with GUTS!!
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#908833 - 03/09/02 06:41 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
jazzyd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/01
Posts: 1861
Loc: United Kingdom
 Quote:
Originally posted by Penny:


5'6" Estonia $12k
6'3" Estonia $15k
6'3" Petrof $14k
6'3" Charles Walter $16k
6'1" Schimmel $16k
6'1" Schimmel diamond series $16,000.01
6'3" Hoffman $16k
6'3" Schulze Pollmann $18k
6'6" Schulze Pollmann $21k
6'3" Pleyel $18k
6'3" Seiler $19k
6'1" Sauter $22k
5'8" Mason & Hamlin $16k
6'10" Mason & Hamlin $32k
6'3" Grotrian $25k
6'3" Bluthner $25k
6'3" Steingraeber $25k
6'3" Bosendorfer $25k
6'3" Bechstein $25k
getting the idea here with the top-tier???

Steinway M $15k
Steinway L $20k
Steinway B $32k

OK, Norbert, how'd I do?

penny[/b]


Cheap, but not cheap enough for paupers like me! \:D

I'll stick with my $2k[/b] Bluthner 6'3"... even if it is as old as my grandma.

On a serious note, I think the price of a new Grotrian 6'3" is about 20k/$28k(?) in Europe. I don't know what they are in the US, but that seems fairly reasonable to me.

Not that I have the money, but I can dream... :rolleyes:

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: jazzyd ]
_________________________
"After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music." - Aldous Huxley

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#908834 - 03/09/02 06:52 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
"list" price for a new grotrian 6'3" as per the larry fine piano supplement is $54K. at the piano mill in boston, where prices are non-negotiable, they are asking, if memory serves, $34K for the same model. if you live in an area of the u.s. where there is no grotrian dealer, the distributor will sell you one directly for approx. $30K. (however, you can not play it before purchase.) they are apparently far less expensive in germany, but then of course you have to pay duty and shipping, etc. from what i understand, it would still be less expensive to buy direct in germany.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#908835 - 03/09/02 07:09 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Diarmuid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 219
Hey Penny! I'm with you all the way \:D

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#908836 - 03/09/02 07:52 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
SteveY Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: NJ
Penny, gotta love the way you differentiated between the Schimmel "traditional" and "diamond" series!!! I think the difference in list price is about 10k if memory serves me.
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PianoWorld disclaimer: musician, producer, arranger, author, clinician, consultant, PS2 aficionado, secret agent...

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#908837 - 03/09/02 09:36 PM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Eldon Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 597
Loc: Illinois
Hi,
Well, since we're talking prices, tell me something about this story. I bought my first new piano in 1980. (well now you know I'm not a "babe") \:D It was a Steinway L in Chicago. At that time I knew nothing about prices/mark-ups or anything. But, I played several pianos and shopped around. I went back to this store about 5 times before purchasing. I just paid the price on the piano. I'd like some of the old "codgers" here to tell me what I could have gotten the piano for. I never attemped to haggle at all. And, no tunings or adjustments were even mentioned. I know...DUH! Quite a different story than Pique's. BTW, I paid $12,500. Bye
_________________________
Sincerely,
Eldon

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#908838 - 03/10/02 12:45 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Chris W1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/26/01
Posts: 915
Loc: Boston
My list, because I am still not sure what this question is driving at, revolves around my own idea of what these pianos are worth on musical merit. It makes these BIG assumptions:

-All companies are the same size (amortizing R&D, to the extent there was any, equally, etc)
-All pianos depreciate at the same rate and can find a market similarly
-All are black and appear essentially nameless
-All are found in the highest form of prep/repair possible (this will skew my numbers pretty good)
-All pianos have similar longevity (ROTFL)
-That the Bosendorfer 225 wasn't the last one I played ;\)

This is not by any means a cut throat list of the lowest prices I've seen:

7'4' Bosie (225) - 38k (Go figure)
Fazioli 7'+ - 37
Grot 6'3 - 32
bech 208 - 35
bech 189 - 32
new/used stein b - 35
used stein a - 32
used stein o - 30
petrof 6'3 23
estonia 6'3 - 23
Charles W - 26
Mason BB - 30
Schimmel 7' - 30
Seiler 180 - 28
Sauter 180'ish - 28

Its getting close to year since I played anything other than the above, so no comment on them.

DISCLOSURE:
The previous assumptions make this completely, and utterly, the most useless compilation of opinions I have ever submitted to the forum. It is, however, clear of any input from the French, or Russian judges.

Flames suit, check.. Outta here.
Chris W

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Chris W1 ]
_________________________
Amateur At Large

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#908839 - 03/10/02 02:29 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 14137
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
On the contrary ChrisW1...they could be the
..... MOST USEFUL ones ....yet!

Wait and see.
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#908840 - 03/10/02 05:36 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I think that I will take a stab at this. Since we are talking about, basically, a contrived set of assumptions and throwing economics out the window (I'm okay with that. Norbert is free to pose a question any way he likes) I will make some assumptions of my own.

First I will assume three tiers of pianos and within each tier, three size ranges (lengths). Added to this is the assumption that pianos within the same tier of similar size should be competitive with one another.
Tier 1
are the Bosies, Bechsteins, Steinways, Mason & Hamlin, and let's even throw Fazioli in here. There are others but we all know what they are.

Tier 2
Yamaha, Kawai, Estonia, Petrof, et al.

Tier 3
Pearl River, Nordiska, Young Chang, Samick, et al.

Sizes are:
L1 - 5'4" to 5'8"
L2 - 5'8" to 6'5"
L3 - 6'5" to 7'5"

These are my prices:

Tier 1:
L1 - 25K
L2 - 30K
L3 - 35K

Tier 2:
L1 - 12K
L2 - 16K
L3 - 20K

Tier 4:
L1 - 6K
L2 - 8K
L3 - 10K

These are ballpark figures and my flame suit is tightly secured. I am probably farthest off on the Tier 1 but, then, I think these manufacturers are awfully proud of these pianos but, of course, the people that buy them are awfully proud to own them.
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#908841 - 03/10/02 08:07 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I don't know what Norbert is driving at, but I do know this: --- the Pearl River rep who hides on here is probably pretty happy to have just been listed along with Young Chang & Samick....

;\)
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#908842 - 03/10/02 09:26 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Ya know,


I started a thread awhile back on whether any folks from the industry ever check in on our little piano board.

A lot of the answers were nope, nada, zip, maybe a couple of bored dealers, etc. A bunch of crazies howling at the moon (I like Ib's analogy).

If you keep catching tidbits from various posters, who do work in the business, we are monitored a lot more than was suggested.

Maybe we ain't so crazy, afterall! ;\)


AAAWWHHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!
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#908843 - 03/10/02 09:58 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
sparrow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/26/01
Posts: 106
Loc: Groningen, NL
I've just deleted my post because I made a capital error in converting euro's to dollars. Will do the math again, and repost it. Sorry.

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#908844 - 03/10/02 10:01 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
I don't know what Norbert is driving at, but I do know this: --- the Pearl River rep who hides on here is probably pretty happy to have just been listed along with Young Chang & Samick....

;\)[/b]


This should encourage people to jump in but that's okay Larry. I can take it. :p
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#908845 - 03/10/02 10:30 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
sparrow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/26/01
Posts: 106
Loc: Groningen, NL
Heres a European take on this pricing issue. \:\) Below in the left column are the fixed prices I would have to pay in The Netherlands (theres no haggling done over here). Supposing the production costs are equal, prices are also influenced by quality and prestige, the latter of which is IMO not fair. Also theres this very valid point Stanza made about the law of diminishing returns. Therefore, I would substract a certain percentage of each of these prices depending on what I think is unneccessary dollars paid for the prestige/snobbism-factor and the diminishing-returns-factor. For example
Boston may be overpriced because of the connection with Steinway,
the German pianos may have very good quality, but this also adds to the prestige-factor,
the Bsendorfer suffers from the diminishing-returns-factor,
up-and-coming Estonia and Petrof wont charge you extra because they are up-and-coming, and
Yamaha has become such a big name that they think they can get away with overcharging, which alas they can.
Please note that the percentages Im taking off are my humble opinion only and based on what meager knowledge of pianos Ive gained in the last year based on Larry Fines book and reading the respected opinions of you all piano world forum members.

(length: 182cm = 6, 213cm = 7, 240cm = 8)

Boston GP 193: $22.562 -/- 30% = $15.793
Boston GP 218: $28.168 -/- 30% = $19.718
Kawai RX3 185: $17.963 -/- 20% = $14.370
Kawai RX5 197: $20.844 -/- 20% = $16.675
Kawai RX6 212: $23.490 -/- 20% = $18.792
Kawai RX7 227: $26.608 -/- 20% = $21.286
Yamaha C5 200: $23.081 -/- 30% = $16.157
Yamaha C6 212: $25.708 -/- 30% = $17.996
Yamaha C7 227: $29.232 -/- 30% = $20.462
Estonia 190: $19.542 -/- 0% = $19.542
Petrof 192: $12.338 -/- 0% = $12.338
Petrof 192 M: $16.675 -/- 0% = $16.675
Petrof 236: $23.522 -/- 0% = $23.522
Schulze-Pollmann. F 190: $18.470 -/- 10% = $16.623
Pleyel 190: $24.674 -/- 10% = $22.207
Hoffmann 190: $17.400 -/- 25% = $13.050
Haessler H 185: $23.296 -/- 25% = $17.472
Schimmel SP 182 TJ: $22.794 -/- 20% = $18.235
Schimmel SP 182 TE: $21.315 -/- 20% = $17.052
Schimmel CC 213T: $25.665 -/- 20% = $20.532
Schimmel CC 213 DE: $28.014 -/- 20% = $22.411
Schimmel CO 256 T: $31.929 -/- 20% = $25.543
Sauter Delta 186: $24.100 -/- 25% = $18.075
Seiler 180: $22.368 -/- 25% = $16.776
Seiler 208: $26.796 -/- 25% = $20.097
Yamaha S4 190: $31.503 -/- 35% = $20.477
Yamaha S6 212: $37.845 -/- 35% = $24.600
Grotrian-Steinweg 192: $28.101 -/- 30% = $19.670
Grotrian-Steinweg 225: $36.192 -/- 30% = $25.334
Bsendorfer CS 200: $35.018 -/- 35% = $22.761
Bsendorfer CS 212: $39.237 -/- 35% = $25.504

Wow, thats more math than Ive done in years.. Hope this helps, Norbert!

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: sparrow ]

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#908846 - 03/12/02 09:44 AM Re: What should a new piano cost?
Mike Parke Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 154
Loc: Columbus, OH
I've stayed out of this because I'm not an active shopper at this time and only have dreams. It's very difficult to approach the question of a fair price until one is actively seeking a piano - the reality of facing "the decision" makes one dig a little deeper for information and reflect on what's really important. Based on what I hope will happen financially for my family over the next couple of years, I'll be looking at 6' pianos such as Estonia, CW, or S-P for my daughter and son.

However, I'll take a stab anyways. My definition of a fair price has two parts - a) it's a price where I feel that everyone involved has gotten a reasonable deal - b) it's a price below which I would feel that I've gotten a bargain. Whether I'd jump at such a piano would depend on if my daughter loved it and if I could somehow find the money.

Based on what I've learned over the last couple of years reading this forum, I'm sort of in the middle between Penny and Chris W. I think a fair price for the Estonia 6'3" is around 18-20K. For the CW 20-22K, for the S-P 20-22K and for Petrof 20-22K.

I notice that I just put the Estonia slightly lower in price than the others - I'm not sure I can really justify this - maybe it's just wishful thinking - hoping that the prices will still be there later on.

For the others, if you just average Penny's and Chris W's numbers you won't be hugely off from my naive impressions.

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