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JBryan,

Jolly is right. Let's move this to the Coffee Room if you care to discuss any further.

Derick

This is a tough question. I was not going to touch it because there are so many factors that determine what a manufacturer can sell a piano for. But decided to take a stab in the dark at what prices I would like to see, hopefully without being too unreasonable.

High quality professional instruments in plain ebony with no special finish work. (i.e. Larry Fine's 1st tier instruments with Sauter thrown in, which I have long thought belongs in this group):

6' - $30k-ish
7' - $40k-ish
9' - $55k-ish

Art cases and special finishes would naturally be higher. Also note, I don't remember where Fine ranks the 6' and 7' Baldwins, but I would not put either them in this category. I have been very disappointed with the ones I have played over the past couple of years.

2nd tier instruments (Serious student grade):
6' - $20k ~ $25k
7' - $30k ~ $35k
9' - $45k ~ $50k

3rd tier instruments (Consumer grade?)
6' - $10k ~ $15k
7' - $15k ~ $25k
9' - $30k ~ $40k

I won't try to grade lesser pianos. They seem to be fighting it out amongst themselves quite well.

These prices are wishful thinking now, but wouldn't have been 10 years ago...

Ryan

Norbert, what should it cost? Free, of course...Komrade! I am better able to comment on what I might be willing to pay, so I'll stick to that. I would add a caveat that this applies only if the piano is a very good instrument prepped nicely.

Group A: Personal favorites

Bluthner: $48k ($58 for the 7'8")
Steinway B, Hamburg: $48k ($58 for Hamburg C)
Bosendorfer: $48k
Fazioli: $48k

Group B: Very nice

Grotrian-Steinweg: $40k
M&H BB: $38k
Steinway B, New York: $38k
Steingraeber: $38k

Group C: Beats a sharp stick in the eye

Schimmel: $25-30k (sub-optimal tonal palette)
August Forster: $25-30k

Group D: Little or no interest

Anything under 6'8"
Mason Hamlin 5'8": No interest (wrong size)
Yamaha C3,C5,C7: No interest, any price
Kawai: No interest, any price

The following I can't place:
Ibach: Haven't played a well-prepped one
Sauter: Haven't played a well-prepped one
Bechstein: Haven't played a well-prepped one
Estonia 6'3: Haven't played a well-prepped one
Petrof 6'3: Haven't played a well-prepped one

Regards,

T2

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Derick,

This does belong in the Coffee Room. We can spare these good people another fresh serving of horse meat. I am intrigued by some of your suggestions but I will think about this some more and I will address them later in the other forum. Right now this is cutting into my piano playing time so I gotta go.

Thanks....Jolly!

...FACTS and FIGURES,folks....and in the end..... you shall be REWARDED!

...talk and more talk [though very interesting!]...you won't take the girl home!

Hmmm, what on earth could Norbert mean by "taking home the girl"? Ohhh! I know...Norbert is giving away...FREE PIANOS!!!

Now that's a price anyone can live with (except maybe Norbert). :p :p :p :p

I'll throw my two cents in on the 6 to 7 foot size grands. I don't have room for anything bigger and I wouldn't buy anything smaller.

If the dealers would cut back on their overhead by having smaller stores with lower inventory and prep those pianos well, I think they could make a decent profit charging the following prices.

High end European pianos sold in the North America should run 35K-45K. You could keep that special price for those that want to say they paid 75K.

High end American grands from M&H and S&S sold in NA should run 27K-36K.

Second tier pianos from any country sold in NA should run 18K-28K.

Many of us would-be pianists and piano lovers dreaming of the ideal piano we may never be able to afford and not having much practical experience with the complexities of modern manufacturing and marketing, really have no realistic idea how much a piano should cost. I therefore wonder why, Norbert, you keep baiting us and egging us on to continue to respond to this question, having us give responses that in many ways are entirely unrealistic.

Please, Norbert, what's the point? And, "taking home the girl..."? I don't have to say what I think a piano would cost to show that I'm stupid! I do that every day in so many other ways! Duh...

Regards,

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: BruceD ]

Norbert

Your question was,
"Since everybody here seems to talk so much about price...what,do you think SHOULD a new piano cost? Let's assume the cost of making any would be the SAME for each model!"

If every one cost the same to make, then the price should be the same on each model. What should that price be?

If someone here is buying a piano, they search here, e-bay, and many other venues to find the lowest price on the model they are looking for. They will then take this price to their local dealer and stick it under his nose, and say match this.

If the same person is selling a piano, the system is reversed. They search the same venues to find the highest price for their model, and use that for the benchmark.

This is human nature(GREED)and is the way the system works.

IMHO I think that the dealer price for your hypothetical piano should be as much as he can possibly get. He owns it and he has the right to ask as much as he wants. The customer can either take it or leave it.

lb

based on how ib has highlighted the question, i'm going to guess that it costs a manufacturer $10,000 to $15,000 to make a really fine hand-worked instrument that has god in the details.

so the cost to the dealer would be in the neighborhood of $15,000 to $20,000, and therefore, based on the usual customary markup in this world, the asking price will be $30,000 to $40,000.

that means that customers who are good at negotiating will pay anywhere from $20,000 to $30,000.

so, i'm going to give as my average street price for a finely made instrument: $25,000.

and i don't think that is too far off from reality, given the scope of fine pianos out there and their prices.

I was just in the process of formulating another response for the curious at the piano manufacting plant and Pique came in and absolutely nailed the proposition down. If you triple the cost of Korean labor and triple the prep costs they pay, maybe four times considering my Young Chang's weirdnesses, you should have it.

Remind me again - why are we doing this? I don't think you can answer this question with any more than a ballpark figure - like Ryan did. But honestly, I like Larry and lbs answers the best. Looking for a piano is a lot like looking for a house. You can estimate a range based on quality, but you can't pinpoint the figure. In the end, the price is what the seller and the buyer can each live with. There are a lot of factors that go into that price, and it isn't going to be the same across the board. It might not even be the same from day to day. It depends on location, overhead, service, how much the seller needs the money, how much the buyer wants what the seller is selling. And I, for one, don't have any problem with that. Jodi

And one other thing, a huge difference in price based on size of the piano doesn't make a lot of sense to me either - it must take close to the same amount of labor to put a 5'8" piano together as is does to put a 7 foot piano together?

[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: jodi ]

Getting ready to present...'the bill', guys!

Remember...it's an all 'FIGURES game', here!

[Some of] you stated what they think is a
"fair" price for a new piano. Approximately.

Others didn't.

Hopefully they won't complain....later.

When they try to get one....THEMSELVES!!

Thanks to all. Please wait.

Some CEO's gonna have to tighten their belt!

Norbert Marten
www.heritagepianos.com

Furthering JBryan's comments, I recommend three excellent books:

1. "Economics in One Lesson," by Henry Hazlitt. A misleadingly titled book that tells you almost everything you ever need to know about economics, in plainspoken language. Technical concepts explained simply, but not condescendingly, in a style so readable that it received great praise from noted non-economist and author H.L. Mencken.

2. "Eat the Rich," by P.J. O'Rourke. Equally misleadingly titled, it offers real-world case studies of the concepts found in Hazlitt's book, and presented with the wit and humor for which O'Rourke is so well known.

3. "The Piano Shop on the Left Bank," by Thad Carhart. Because after the first two books, you'll be looking for something different, and well...this is the Piano Forum, isn't it?

I think I will address the actual topic of this thread now. I think I owe as much since I have already dispensed enough horse meat and other horse products so here goes.

First, "What SHOULD a new piano cost" is followed by "Let's assume the cost of making any would be the SAME for each model!" I am having some difficulty with that in light of the final premise "In other words....what's FAIR???" I may not understand Norbert's question but he appears to be saying "assume that any model costs the same to produce so what is a fair price". Actually, a fair price for any item may have little or nothing to do with its cost of production. Strictly speaking, the price is determined by how many are in supply vs. how many are wanted. If I have the ony 5'4" Pearl River in existence and everybody wants one well I can pretty much name my price. That is an extreme example but it illustrates just how "what is fair" may not follow any formula involving production costs, marketing strategies, or CEO compensation. It is supply and demand. Occasionally we will encounter a real bargain and, for the short term, it will go into short supply (e.g. Estonia) but either the supply will increase (perhaps resulting in a drop in quality and subsequent drop in demand) or the price will increase and the demand will naturally fall off. "Guessing" at the list of pianos supplied by Norbert is irrelevant to the central question of "what is a fair price". And, for the reasons I have outlined, the cost of production is irrelevant as well. So Norbert, I have given you what a fair price should be and have told you why without giving you a single number and I maintain that specific numbers are meaningless. That is my answer wit a whole lot more wind and a whole lot less horse..er...products.

The exercise here has a SPECIFIC purpose and result. There is no argument with any particular thoughts or input by anyone.

Giving 'real numbers' is difficult for everybody. Still, in the end, numbers are the very concrete factors by which our whole economy moves. Not 'high' or 'low', 'fair' or 'unfair'...but REAL,ACTUAL NUMBERS! Actual 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10's. THIS IS.... what our whole economy is...at least in the end...simply based upon!

The people who have approached me to ask the question here perhaps know more about this market than most of us together.

They all know the buts,ifs,coulds,woulds and shoulds inherent in all economic matters.

What they really DON'T KNOW is what a mixed but informed audience like this relates to EXACT and ACTUAL pricing of a given product in the market place vis-a-vis its inherent PERCEPTION of its supposed economic value or "worthiness".

[And 'sales figures', unfortunately don't tell the whole story here!]

"PERCEPTION" to equal "WORTHINESS"!!

Talking here about the most important 'unknown economic variable' in any industry... just ask ANY performing artist!!

When asked for figures....few of us feel comfortable to cough up facts. And this does not limit itself only to anatomical descriptions.....sigh..sigh

It's like asking "how long do YOU actually think you're gonna live??"

Everybody's answer would be : L O N G ..but few of us would DARE to give a specific number!!

But despite our best wishes,philosophies, beliefs and speeches.. in the end...it really
is 'only'...a specific NUMBER... of years.

So, HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK SHOULD A GIVEN PIANO COST? is certainly not easy but also not impossible to answer.

UNLESS we all simply agree...that the given price level and its given fluctuations within
the existing parameters of our present economic system is already completely 'fair' and 'acceptable' as is.

We certainly would make a lot of the grey-haired gents in dark suits eagerly watching this thread more than happy.

And I hate it to say...but most of us....

..knowingly or unknowingly.....ALREADY HAVE!!

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Norbert ]

Norbert

I think what you have seen here is that most of us have a pretty good grasp of how pricing of a product works. We realize it is not just about manufacturing costs, but there are many other costs involved as well. While many know what has to be involved in setting a price, few know what the numbers of those costs are. Thus, it becomes impossible to give an exact number without simply guessing or without having done some research to find the mean, median, mode etc of what the price is for all similar pianos are selling for.

I suspect most of us would argue the price of a piano should be 'fair." Fair to those who manufacture, market and sell the piano and fair to the consumer. Fairness includes an adequate profit for those providing the piano and fair means giving the consumer a product that is worth the consumer's expenditure.

There is no actual number people like us can really give because there is no way we can know all of the variables off the top of our head. But, when shopping for a specific product, we are all pretty good at figuring out if the price asked is in the "fairness" range.

Now, people who are providing the product may see this as giving them the ability to go to the high end of whatever a price range may be and perhaps exceed it, and then put together a marketing campaign to make people think they received a fair price. Don't think the majority of consumers of such things as fine pianos are stupid. Ignorant when they start shopping, perhaps, but not stupid.

Exceeding the fairness standard is possible, but will only last for so long. First, competition will have other manufacturers undercutting this price and explaining why their piano is just as good as the higher priced one. If this information is form a credible company, consumers listen to this. Secondly, the moment a company gets a reputation for overpricing or for treating customers outside the bound of fairness (bad service, for example), word spreads quickly and any gains that manufacturer made will be lost and will only be regained, if ever, after a lot of work and after spending a lot of money. Even then, their reputation may be so sullied, that they will never recover.

Far better to ask, I think, what is the most someone would/could pay for a specific piano with specific specifications? This then would provide the upper limit that a person is mentally and financially capable of agreeing to, fairness or not. There comes a point in economics where something is priced out of reach for too many people and the market dissolves except for those who need not worry about price.

Well, the way Norbert framed the question (they all cost the same to produce) makes giving an answer difficult. I've often talked about the other variables of location, labor, etc. that make setting a uniform "fair" price all but impossible. But even temporarily removing those variables, for the sake of this thread, leaves the basic question that Norbert has posed.

But I'm not so sure that Norbert isn't playing a game the Forum members. Whether the "suits" are reading this or not, I think it's a very telling exercise: even the piano-savvy members here can't agree on what is a "fair" price for certain pianos, but then many of us turn around and fault the industry (manufacturers and dealers) for not offering a product at a uniformly agreed upon "fair price" that we can't even set the points for the industry to try to hit. I think Norbert is proving a point, and a very good one, at that.

The only specific comment regarding price is that I think the Walter grand is fairly priced if sold between $18,500 and 20,000. As I understand, that's generally the range they actually sell in, so the reason that one is not sitting in my living room right now has nothing to do with dealers asking too much for it.

"Fairness" or "what is fair" is an elusive and very subjective concept. It is actually a diversion from the reality of what a price should be. The points I outlined above (and maybe not too clearly) are econ 101 and only "fair" in the sense that it is the way it always is consistently. Cost of production has an impact on price but only partially. Marketing may generate more demand (at an added cost) but may not. If I have a warehouse full of pianos that nobody wants, I may have to sell them at below what it cost to produce them just to avoid the ongoing cost of warehousing them. If I have a piano that is in great demand, the price I ask for it may be well above what it cost to produce and it is still "fair". I still say there is only one answer for what this entire list of pianos should cost. Whatever the market will bear.

Come on everyone! We all seem terrified of looking stupid here. Norbert has asked us to give figures. I gave mine (and got chuckled at by the enormously charming Derick). Just stick your necks out a bit more. It's only an internet forum. Have a go.

And as a very demanding consumer, I stick by all my prices. Especially relating to the higher end of the market :p

[ March 09, 2002: Message edited by: Diarmuid ]