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Diarmuid,

I guess my interpretation of Norbert's question was more along the lines of what would you, as a pianist, who knows these instruments, think is fair to pay. And perhaps that is how you interpreted it as well.

I'm not knocking your prices, I think they are wonderul, I just don't think they are realistic.

Well Norbert seems to be up to something and I'm very curious as to what he's going to spring on us!

Derick

jolly's prices, of all those posted so far, are the closest to what i found one can reasonably expect to pay if one is a very good negotiator and knows where to look.

Like I said, I know nothing about production costs, the piano industry, dealers costs e.t.c. And it's not fair to criticise me for being unrealistic when we were solicited for an uninformed, and essentially fun opinion. If you want people to have a wild stab at something (and throw in a bit of attitude for fun), don't go tut tutting at them when they do. It's kind of patronising

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Diarmuid ]

pique - a Steinway B for 42K??? Please tell me where.

Diarmuid - I'm not criticizing, I was just stating my opinion on fair versus realistic. Our numbers don't happen to line up but there certainly is no right or wrong answer.

Again, I'm interested to see what Norbert has up his sleeve with this question.

Derick

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Derick ]

Okay, I guess I'll bite. These are some prices I was able to wrangle out of some of the dealers in my area within the last year. It should be pointed out that I have official status as the world's ABSOLUTE WORST haggler/negotiator, and as such these are prices that were offered with no di-ckering (had to trick the censor-bot) of any sort on my part. That would make them, IMHO, fair to the dealer :rolleyes: but nevertheless seemed fair to me:

Yamaha C3 - $19,800

Yamaha C5 - $21,500

Kawai RX2 - $18,900

Kawai RX3 - $20,800

Estonia 6'3" - $19,300

Petrof III - $19,800

Of course, this really doesn't do much in the long run, since piano prices seem to display variations based on geographical locations (why does everything seem to cost more in the Northeast?) and dealer overhead.

Make whatever you will of these prices. All I did was ask a few questions and the going rate for the pianos listed above. It seems that they fall pretty much in line what I have heard others negotiated down to, so I guess it's either all in your attitude or the tactics of the sales staff!

Because you have to pay people a lot of money just to get them to live there.

Geez, Norbert you sure know how to take all the fun out of dropping a bomb, don't you?


:p

Not really....I said...on bin Laden!!

This isn't worth pursuing, it really isn't but calling something an opinion doesn't preclude it from being a criticism, or having critical overtones.

Hmmm...I'm considering blackballing you at the next secret meeting of the Inner Circle Derick. Lets face it, the Alpha Member's still growling. It'll be the wilderness for you sonny, as a penance for your effrontery

The Fazioli got mentioned a lot for being overpriced. How much does a Fazioli 6' cost in the US?

Dairmuid,

You said:



According to the Thorndike Barnhart Comprehensive Desk Dictionary the definition of opinion is:

1. what one thinks; belief no so strong as knowledge; judgement. 2. impression; estimate.

Apparently you cannot deal with any opinion that differs from your own.

I just realized that you said my car example wasn't a fair comparison. Excuse me now while I find a corner to sit and sulk.

Derick

[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: Derick ]

So a "judgement" cannot be a critical judgement? It's implicit in the phrase "What one thinks" that that cannot be critcal e.t.c. Saying something is "an opinion" is a very general statement that allows plenty of scope for a critical element. It's my opinion that Bin Laden is mad. Is that just an opinion or a criticism? It's both. It's an opinion that is also a criticism.

And I can deal with different opinions. That's why I didn't single you out and criticise your prices. My point is that you're criticising me for being unrealistic when I fully admitted from the start that I didn't know what a realistic price was for a manufacturer. I was just having a wild stab for the fun of it and you got all real and serious on me. I didn't think that was fair or in the spirit of Norberts original question.

And now you're getting even more serious.

Pianos are no different than any other consumer item. The law of diminishing returns applies. Is a $42k Steinway TWICE as good as a $21K Charles Walter? I think not! Once you start getting into the higher priced pianos you really aren't getting much bang for your buck. Keeping it in the realm of piano, lets say you had your eye on one for $25k. One coud argue that you could also find one you also liked pretty well for $20K. If you spent the $5K difference on: A year of lessons (50 weeks x $50 =$2500); a music cabinet, metromnome, lamp ($500); Henle editions of your favorites ($500); for variety, practice, and the kids ...a Yamaha p80 portable pro-grade digital piano with stand and external powered speakers, headphones ($1100), 10 piano CDs ($150), tickets to a concert ($100),etc, etc. You would get much more "piano enjoyment" and you would play better (with the lessons and a good, silent practice instrument)for that 5 grand than what might be an extemely slight difference in sound, look, or especially "status or name recognition".

Whew, the last few posts! Wow.

It's as if Derick and Diarmuid are aliases for Larry and Good Will.

It may not yet be over.

I think the bang for the buck in expensive instruments depends on your playing ability. For your average pianist the bang for the buck is low. For a professional who needs or wants those less tangible advantages the bang for the buck is probably higher.

Ryan

Sorry, I admitted that I don't know the market for Steinways. That is because A) why buy a Steinway when a CW is built as well, can deliver equivalent sound, and costs half as much , and B) the best Steinway built today has Mason & Hamlin on the fallboard.



Norbert, if that dosen't jump start this sucker, there ain't a cow in Texas!

Ryan, I fully agree. There is a big difference between those who are: "I have always wanted to play piano and now want to start (or re-start)lessons..."or "my 8 year old daughter really likes piano..." etc. versus "I am in my 3rd year studying piano at the conservatory and..." . One must do a self-evaluation first and then put the information gathered from this board an elsewhere into that context.

Diarmuid,

I don't want to get into an argument over semantics on this, but when I say something is my opinion, I mean it is my impression, or it is in my estimation. There is no right or wrong.

I did say that I felt your prices were unrealistic, but that was not meant in a negative way. Inherent in any opinion is a judgement. But that judgement can be critical and negative, or merely an expression or statement of how one feels.

My statement about your prices was intended to be akin to the latter.

Derick

Fair enough. That was my point. Calling something "an opinion" does not preclude the possibility that it was a criticism.

If you feel my prices were unrealistic that's ok, but I didn't mean them terribly seriously and I didn't claim to really know anything about how much pianos cost to manufacture. People seemed reluctant to contribute, so I was just entering into the fun of things with a "lower limit" type of list.

I still think Faziolis are crazily priced though Lovely pianos (I played seven of them last year) but Ryan, do you know many discriminating pianists who can actually afford one!! (Angela Hewitt and Nikoli Demidenko don't count. I heard they got big discounts ;)).

All very well......but I can't drop 'the big'
one without more figures.

A lot more.