Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#909307 - 10/20/05 11:25 PM Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6180
Thread copied to FAQ on 2-Nov-2005.
Link to original discussion in the Piano Forum:

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/12051.html [/b]


In early October of 2005, when Piano*Dad announced the delivery of his new Grotrian-192, the discussion turned to the "duplex-like" scale of the Grotrian and folks offered various theories/speculations on what those "duplex-like" thingy contribute to the tone of the Grotrian. Piano*Dad and piqué posted pictures Grotrian-192' "duplex-like" sections, and Derick posted pictures of his Bösendorfer Imperial-290's "duplex-like" section. That discussion is at: http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/11877.html

I have since noticed that other pianos also employ this similar design element. Hence this post.

I reference Piano*Dad, piqué, and Derick's pictures here as visual aids:

From Piano*Dad's Grotrian-192[/b], notice that there is a curved pressure bar between hitch pins and bridge and the string segments in between the two are not muted:


Another Grotrian-192 picture by piqué's[/b], shows the same thing as Piano*Dad's picture:


Derick's Bösendorfer Imperial-290[/b], also no muting felt between pressure bar and bridge:


And in Piano*Dad's thread, some speculated over what that design element may or may not have contributed to the tone of the Grotrians and Bösendorfers.

Well, recently I looked at that sections on grand pianos by Petrof, DongBei/Nordiska, and Samick and noticed the following:

Petrof[/b] models IV, III, and II -- no duplex, no pressure bar between hitch pins and bridge, the segments of the treble strings between the hitch pins and bridge are not muted (but those string segments of the tenor sectionis muted).

DongBei/Nordiska[/b] 5', 5'5", and 6'1" -- has pressure bar between hitch pins and bridge with unmuted string segments between pressure bad and bridge, just like Grotrian-192 and Bösendorfer Imperial-290 shown above EXCEPT those string segments of the tenor sectionis muted.

Samick[/b] 5'7" -- has pressure bar between hitch pins and bridge with unmuted string segments between pressure bar and bridge EXCEPT those string segments of the tenor sectionis muted.

So, at least for the treble and high-treble sections, the Bösendorfer Imperial and Grotrian-192 are very much like Nordiska 5', 5'5", 6'1" and Samick 5'7" in that they (1) use a pressure bar between hit pins and bridge, (2) leave the string segments between pressure bar and bridge unmuted.

(Please correct me if the above is factually wrong.)

Any one has got any more interesting theory on the magic and benefits of unmuted back scales with pressure bars?
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

Top
#909308 - 10/20/05 11:46 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Jeff Bauer Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/28/03
Posts: 1718
Loc: Los Angeles
 Quote:
Originally posted by Axtremus:
Any one has got any more interesting theory on the magic and benefits of unmuted back scales with pressure bars? [/b]
The unmuted strings between the hitch pins and the top section of the bridge resonate sympathetically.

You can hear the effects with and without the extra harmonics by muting the upper register using a band of tuners felt.

The extra harmonic sounds that come from these unmuted sections are similar to adding salt to food.

You will taste something with the right amount of salt, but not know it is there - yet it tastes very satisfying. If that same thing were to have much less salt, it would become bland, and you would miss the flavor of the salt. That is what duplex (triplex, mixture, whatever) scaling sounds like to me.

On a separate note - I have noticed piano manufacturers have alternate ways of going after the "salt".

Some use the system as shown in the Bösendorfer picture.

Some (like Yamaha) have a system where individual capos are placed in the duplex section to give each area a specified pitch by uniformly/accurately setting the string length. This is supposed to give a cleaner sound. These capos correspond to each note, and fit three strings each. Since the individual capos are not tuneable, I think over time this design loses some of it's intended effect. But again, it is salt.

Some, like Fazioli, take it even further. Fazioli has a system like Yamaha's. However, each capo piece can be scooted forward or backward to assist in the rough tuning of that area.

I am sure there are more systems, but they all are going after the same thing. Salt.
_________________________
Jeff Bauer | Keyboard Concepts

Yamaha | Schimmel | Bösendorfer | Knabe | Seiler | Restored Steinway

BauerHouse Productions

Top
#909309 - 10/21/05 12:32 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
axtremus, and all, you'll be interested to know i received an answer from grotrian on this matter of the duplex scale.

to the best of my understanding (remembering that there is a bit of a language barrier even among fluent speakers because of the technical terms), whether or not grotrian has a "duplex" scale depends on how you define the word duplex.

grotrian maintains that this is not a technical term and that the term "duplex scale" is a name patented and owned by steinway. therefore, they call what they do a mixture scale, as others use names like resonators, triplex, and so on for the same feature.

but, there is also a technical difference.

Grotrian wrote: "the big difference with our mixture scale is that each of the string parts between bridge and hitch pin has another length so that they are not able to be tuned to the same frequency, even if someone tries to do so. This causes not the “tone of a duplex” but the “colourful noise of the mixture” scale. And please believe us that we tried both and know well abut the difference."

so, my reading of this is that grotrian does have a duplex scale as we in this country understand it, as a generic term. they do not have a duplex scale in the sense of the design patented by steinway and called by that name. their design is different.

i like angelino jazzer's explanation of it as the "seasoning" in the tone. good metaphor! \:\)
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909310 - 10/21/05 02:04 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
There are NO duplex scales in the pictures shown.

None of the pianos mentioned by AX function as having duplexes. It isn't also just a "language" issue and any patents that Steinway had are long, long expired. Any company that makes a piano with a duplex scale can call it a duplex scale in much of the same way that all car tires are called "tires".

For that reason piano makers that actually use duplex scale designs call them...well, duplex scales and not triplexes, resonators or anything else.

The reason Grotrian doesn't call it a duplex scale is because it isn't.
I don't think anyone should try to convince companies like Grotrian to call something that isn't a duplex scale…a duplex scale, or to imply that they don't call it this way because of a language barrier.
These companies decided NOT to incorporate a duplex scale because of one reason or another.

Pianos that are single strung all the way to the higher treble usually don't have tunable duplex scales as space is limited.

Steinway, Yamaha C, Kawai RX and Baldwin have fixed, non-tunable duplexes. Steinway used to have instruments with movable front duplexes on their vintage grand models A, B, C ,D but eliminated these as years went by and are now using fixed duplexes.
The baby grands models O, L, M, S never had tunable duplexes.
Mason & Hamlin, Fazioli and Estonia have tunable duplexes.

If you pluck the part of the string between the bridge and the pressure bar that is supposedly the "mixture scale", in comparison to the same section on a piano with a real tunable duplex scale you'll hear a much more audible sound on the instrument with the duplex scale.
MUCH more audible.

Mason, Fazioli and Estonia all have tunable duplexes called aliquots. They use the more conventional loop stringing in the treble where there are duplexes, and then move to either single stringing for the wider sections of the piano, or to a 2+1 system (one loop and one single) that will retain the more important advantages of the single stringing.

Bluthner, that (in a way similar to Bosendorfer and Grotrian) wanted to go all the way to highest note with single stringing, solved the space problem by adding a fourth "aliquot" string that is sympathetic to the other strings (it isn't struck by the hammer) in much of the same way that the duplexes do.
The affect on the Bluthner is more pronounce though and it is easier to tune the string to react differently to the other three strings.

In the Bluthner, as well as in the Mason, Fazioli or Estonia the Affect is most noticeable when the key is struck with force. When playing pp there is less difference and excitement of the fourth string or the aliquot section then when playing FF.

Many, me included, like the duplex scale and believe it creates a fuller and more colorful treble with more projection.
Others like to criticize the system and may prefer an instrument without it.

It certainly seems though, that the critics of the duplex scale system are getting to be in the minority, as in the past few years there has been what looks like a "mad rush" of European manufacturers to redesign their pianos with duplex scales (I wonder if the success and recognition of modern pianos such as Estonia or Fazioli had anything to do with it).

C.Bechstein (their concert grand, the B-210 and the M/P 192), Seiler and Schimmel all came up in the last couple of years with newly designed instruments that incorporate duplex scaling.
Bosendorfer too, introduced a few years ago a new concert grand, the model 280 that has at least front duplexes.

I hope this somewhat clarify the issue.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909311 - 10/21/05 02:35 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
The understring pressure bar provides a smooth, even bearing point so that one can control the downbearing on the bridge. It also looks nice. The effect on the sound is pretty minimal, as one can tell by comparing a piano that has this feature and one that does not. Same with pianos that have the backscale muted or not, a comparison you can try if it is unmuted. Same goes for duplex scales, aliquot strings and all that other stuff which provides so much marketing hype.

What makes a good piano is good overall design, good overall workmanship, and after that, good maintenance.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909312 - 10/21/05 02:57 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
BDB,
Duplex scale IS a part of the overall design.
It's interesting to know that you can't tell any difference, but many people, once listening to a Bluthner with a blocked aliquot string can tell the difference easily once the block is removed. Further more, many can tell the difference by listening to the sound when the string is in perfectly in tune to the other strings, and when it is tuned somewhat higher.
It always saddens me when someone like you can't tell the difference and can't appreciate the work that I do on the Bluthner treble, gradually tuning the aliquot string from being perfectly even with the other strings, to being higher then the others as we get to the top.
Luckily, at least by my experience, people like you that can't tell the difference are in overwhelming minority.

Same goes regarding the affect of the tunable aliquots once muted.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909313 - 10/21/05 03:51 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
ChickGrand Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3220
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ori:
...Many, me included, like the duplex scale and believe it creates a fuller and more colorful treble with more projection.
Others like to criticize the system and may prefer an instrument without it....[/b]
Then we agree on this. (We agree on much more but I don't often pipe in just to say so.) In the other thread, regarding the Grotian and duplex in general, I said:

My old Chickering concert grand has the little individual bearing bars behind the bridge and ahead of the hitchpins, which are each independently moveable and not cast as a group as is seen on many pianos, and not a single continuous bearing bar as on still others. (I had moved one of them a long time ago to get a more pure unison.) A couple of weeks ago after my long-distance move, I went through the piano tightening all screws and seating all strings to the fore and aft bridge pins before the post-move tuning. I was surprised to find that on the trichords and bichords, the back section between the bridgepins and the hitchpins were of various pitches, but in a very precise and ordered manner. Each single string of a unison group had a distinctly different pitch in the rear duplex, with the left-most being lowest and the rightmost highest on every single set, with a very precise pitch interval. As I realized that, I only then understood the possible complexity of duplexing and the way that little bit can contribute to the strength of those upper partials of a note. I strip muted the rear duplex as an experiment. I found the sound to be acceptable, but lacking ever so slightly something I'd call "presence" for lack of a better word. Muting of the front duplex gave similar results."

And:

"If I were a betting man, I'd bet that by "mixture scale" what they mean is that the "speaking portion" and "non-speaking" portions of their strings are scaled to arrive at what they consider to be a good harmonic blend, without trying to augment the portion referred to as the speaking portion with a front and/or rear "duplex" (which by its nature seems more apt for the label "mixture"). "Unified" would probably be a better word than "mixture" for what they're doing. Anyway, my money's on that sort of meaning. I just don't see anything there that looks like duplexing as it's commonly thought of. (I'd still like to hear Del's thoughts about duplexing in general [or Dale Fox's expansion on what he said earlier]. I can understand why it might be an impractical idea given the difficulty of good execution in many ways and also why it'd be no fix for failure to get the speaking portion of a scale right in the first place, but what I'm wondering is that if it is done right and merely augments an otherwise well-executed scale, if it could be advantageous (even for the tech who might bill plenty of hours to tune the duplexes, however tedious and annoying that might be.) Dale's reference to "energy-robbing" hints in a direction I might understand and concur with if expounded upon, but can't just yet given the sketchy picture so far. In my ignorance, I'm wondering if it were executed right, if there's the possibility that the duplex might reinforce the upper partials of the speaking portion of the string, if properly tuned (kind of like the way unisons flatten or sing depending on how they're tuned)."

Bluthner's approach seems the most common-sense to me, avoiding as it does the difficulty of tuning a short string section to upper partials to achieve the same end of adding presence when you lay into a key with more force.

I'd be interested in hearing Dale Fox expand on his phrase "energy robbing" and addressing how that may differ between conventional styles of duplexing versus Bluthner's fourth string aliquot. (I'm still thinking that if duplexing is done right, it would not be robbing, but augmenting, though I can readily see where it would be robbing if done badly or not tuned carefully.)

However it's done, I prefer my duplexes properly tuned, unmuted, and ready to sing when I lay into the keys. What you call "color", I'm calling "presence". I don't doubt that the texture they add is part of why I prefered the Chickering concert grand to an S&S D, which to my ears sounds cold and colorless by comparison, however lovely a voice it is in its own right. When I lay into the keys, I want presence, or texture, not just additional volume. I think good duplexing gets that without resorting to volume alone to make the treble sing over the tenor or bass, keeping the tone from being shrill or piercing while still getting added projection.

*I* can hear the difference. But I have good ears.

BDB said, "What makes a good piano is good overall design, good overall workmanship, and after that, good maintenance."

I think that's quite true, but I think a good scale design can include duplexing but duplexing is no fix for a poor scale. And it seems to me to add to the complexity of even a good design and therefore certainly requires even better workmanship, and after that, even better maintenance. Otherwise it could only be a detriment. But given those, you might be "cooking with gas".

Top
#909314 - 10/21/05 10:32 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
Ori wrote "If you pluck the part of the string between the bridge and the pressure bar that is supposedly the "mixture scale", in comparison to the same section on a piano with a real tunable duplex scale you'll hear a much more audible sound on the instrument with the duplex scale.
MUCH more audible."

I must diagree. I don't hear any difference in volume between my old Steinway M and my Grotrian in terms of volume, when I pluck these "duplex" elements.

The reason that Ori and others (myself included) like the duplex sound is because the scale designs that use it are too mellow without it. Grotrian stated in the same email to Pique that their design achieves brilliance through the use of a higher tension (thicker string) as well.

My old M had pressure plates that were moveable between the bridge and the hitch pin. Moving these was the accepted method of "tuning" them according to my (then) piano technician. Why does Ori say the S&S duplexes are not tunable?

Why do technicians refer to all speaking lengths that are not struck as duplex segments?

I can understand Grotrian's reservation about using the term, given their history in court with S&S. But I find it strange that people would only refer to the plate configuration of the Stenway as a "duplex" and then in the same paragraph refer to the Boesendorfer "front duplex". This also is a resonating string element (tuneable or not Ori?) that is not struck.

Ori - what is your exact definition of "Duplex"?
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

Top
#909315 - 10/21/05 12:01 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
 Quote:
Originally posted by Grotriman:

I must diagree. I don't hear any difference in volume between my old Steinway M and my Grotrian in terms of volume, when I pluck these "duplex" elements."

[/b]
Grotriman,
I wrote:
If you pluck the part of the string between the bridge and the pressure bar that is supposedly the "mixture scale", in comparison to the same section on a piano with a real tunable duplex scale you'll hear a much more audible sound on the instrument with the duplex scale.

[/b]

The part I want you to notice is the TUNABLE duplex scale. Maybe I should have said tunable twice and since I didn't, I can see how you got confused. Better yet, I should have said INDIVIDUALLY tunable duplexes.

The Steinway M never had a true tunable duplex scale.
Not in the front and not in the back. It does have a duplex scale though, and the design is a part of the iron plate in the front, and made of a somewhat moveable plate on the other...but when this plate is moved the whole section has to move and the movement range is very limited in comparison to instruments with true individually tunable duplex scale. In fact, on the Steinway, the movement range is so limited that it can hardly change affect when moved.

The part of the string that is meant to sympathetically respond to the speaking length of the string ( or the duplex segment) is much shorter then you'd find on modern instruments with tunable duplexes such as the Fazioli and the Estonia.
If you pluck this part on a piano with a tunable duplex scale the difference will be very audible.

Obviously this discussion is almost impossible to have in an Internet forum. One should have access to different pianos and be able to see and hear the results of the different designs and approaches.
I definitely know that I'm not articulate enough to convey ALL the possible combinations and differences maker take regarding this, or other technical aspects.

What I can say, is that for me, the true individually tunable duplex scale offers control.
While changing aliquots to different sizes and location in the front duplex scale, I can create an affect similar to make up...eliminate certain things that I may find objectionable or bring out certain things that I like.
The rear duplex is something that I like to think of more as clothing. The color can be changed and controlled by moving the Aliquots.

It is very clear to me that there are those that are not used to work with tunable duplexes and don't feel that they have any advantage. Some even feel that the duplex may cause unwanted harmonics and rings.
It is definitely my preference though to have tunable duplexes and I believe that some techs can make a good use of these.
Of course, the more experience one has with these systems the better they get in using their advantages. If one doesn't usually work with these, they may miss what I think as the advantage and feel quite the opposite, in much of the way that tech's that don't install Dampp- Chaser systems tend to criticize them.

The fact is though, that they have much less experience with tunable duplexes and although may be very knowledgeable techs their opinions are contradicted by the piano designers of modern times at Mason, Estonia, Fazioli and also now obviously C.Bechstein, Schimmel and Seiler.
I'd like to add that I'm not sure if the aliquots are tunable or not on these newly designed C.Bechstein, Schimmel or Seiler (can’t remember which had what when I saw the pianos), but they do incorporate now a duplex scale in their designs.

As for your last comments, I’m not sure I understand them…but in any case,
Your Steinway has a front and back duplex scale.
The front is fixed and the back, although can be moved very little in sections is not really tunable. Bosendorfer designed their last Concert Grand 280 a front duplex. I’m not sure if it is fixed or not. The single stringing at the higher octaves, as appear on the Bosie and Grotrian will usually leave no room for rear duplexes.

I understand now that when hoping to clarify things at my last post I probably made a mistake. There are too many possibilities and variations to go over them all here.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909316 - 10/21/05 12:10 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
AAARRRGGHHH!!!

I appreciate all your comments and didn't even know you were speaking of the front duplex part when speaking of "tune-able".

But really there has to be a simple definition of duplex out there. Somewhere!

It's a word we are all using and it appears we are all using it to refer to some slightly different aspect of the piano.

I'm looking for a simple couple sentence paragraph that defines duplex as applied to the piano.

Then I think there will be a lot less confusion about what everybody is talking about.
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

Top
#909317 - 10/21/05 12:11 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
Ori,

Can you post a picture of the tuneable front duplex on the Estonia that you are speaking about?


Thanks!
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

Top
#909318 - 10/21/05 12:21 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Palindrome Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 3914
Loc: Chicago, IL USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ori:
...It isn't also just a "language" issue and any patents that Steinway had are long, long expired. Any company that makes a piano with a duplex scale can call it a duplex scale in much of the same way that all car tires are called "tires"....
[/b]
Patents expire, but copyrights and trade names do not (unless they go unused and undefended).
_________________________
There is no end of learning. -Robert Schumann Rules for Young Musicians

Top
#909319 - 10/21/05 12:44 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
Aliquot- A small metal bar or plate that divides the back end of a string into two parts, one of which vibrates sympathetically, creating a duplex scale.
So if there is'nt a duplex bridge or aliquots, there is'nt a duplex scale.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

Top
#909320 - 10/21/05 12:45 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Monica K. Offline

Platinum Supporter until Dec 31 2012


Registered: 08/10/05
Posts: 17777
Loc: Lexington, Kentucky
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ori:
Mason, Fazioli and Estonia all have tunable duplexes called aliquots. ...
Many, me included, like the duplex scale and believe it creates a fuller and more colorful treble with more projection...

I hope this somewhat clarify the issue. [/b]
It does indeed, Ori! Thank you very much for your detailed and thoughtful post. I think this helps explain why my two favorite pianos in my search were the M&H and Estonia...obviously, there's something about the sound created with the duplex scale/aliquots that I find enormously appealing. To my ears, the treble on the M&H rings out more clearly over the bass than was true in many much bigger grands I tried.

Can I ask a practical question? Is the tuning process substantially different with a "true" duplex like the M&H? Do you need a technician who has been specially trained?
_________________________
Mason & Hamlin A -- 91997
My YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/pianomonica

Top
#909321 - 10/21/05 12:48 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Grotriman,
I don't know how to post pictures. Maybe one of the many Estonia owners on the site can do it. If none can, I'll try to figure out how to do it later.
It would be nice though if you can post pictures of your front section of the strings between the tuning pins and the capo bar. This way I could tell you at least if there is a difference there or not.

Phlindrome,
As far as I know, Theodore Steinway didn't invent the duplex scale and I don't think he had any copyrights to the name. I believe he only patented his way of doing it and thought of it as an improvement to existing duplex scaling.
I believe this is the reason that on older Steinways have on the plate "duplex scale patent", sometimes with the date of May 14, 1872.

Now, I'm not a lawyer and wouldn't presume to be one, but I think it's reasonable to assume that if Mason & Hamlin, Fazioli, Estonia, C.Bechstein, Schimmel, Seiler, Baldwin, Yamaha Kawai and others that use duplex scale (although in different forms) are free to call it duplex scale without any legal response from Steinway...it would be safe to assume that Grotrian could also call it this way IF they had a duplex scale design.
Since Grotrian DOESN'T have duplex scale design it makes the whole point moot.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909322 - 10/21/05 12:50 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
I didn't say that there was no difference, just that there was very little difference. If you put a person in a room and played an old Steinway without the duplex, like an M or O from the early 1900's and then an M or O from a couple of years later when the duplex was added, or a couple of Baldwins before and after Acu-Just hitch pins, I don't think that person would be able to tell which was which without looking. Nobody noticed when the duplex aliquots were designed in or out. There are other factors that make differences in a pianos tone that make more of a difference. It isn't an important component of the piano's design.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909323 - 10/21/05 12:59 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1715
Loc: Massachusetts
My memory may be mistaken, but I believe Del called rear duplexes worthless, or something like that. I haven't seen a post from Del for a while--I hope he's still here. Those who extoll the virtues of duplex scales may be reacting more to the sound of a front duplex. Just idle speculation...

Top
#909324 - 10/21/05 01:02 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Derick II Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 1426
Loc: New York
Ori: My 290 also has a front duplex, so it's not just the 280. There may also be other Bosendorfer models with front duplexes, I'm not sure.

As I had written in the original thread regarding these rear duplexes or mixtures/whatever in the treble, the tone produced when plucking this area lasts a micro-second. I do not think it adds much, if anything, to the tone of the piano.

Contrast the rear "duplex" with a true front duplex and the tone is much more audible and much more sustaining.

Derick
_________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."[/b] - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


Top
#909325 - 10/21/05 01:07 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
 Quote:
Originally posted by Monica Kern:
Can I ask a practical question? Is the tuning process substantially different with a "true" duplex like the M&H? Do you need a technician who has been specially trained? [/b]
No, The aliquots on a tunable duplex scale are set when the piano is prepared so they won't really move and do NOT need to be adjusted with regular tunings.
I would suggest though that if a tech is going to change these aliquots or move them for any reason, he'd better know what he is doing.

The fourth tunable aliquot string on a Bluthner does need to be tuned every time the instrument is tuned. This may add 10-15 minutes to the tuning time. The system used on the Bluthner though is the purest and most efficient way to create a desirable sympathetic sound and enhance the treble color and projection in my opinion...
so the extra short time that's required to tune the fourth string is well worth it.
It is also my experience that tech's won't charge anything more to tune a Bluthner then they do for other pianos in spite of the additional 10 minutes...usually they are quite ecstatic to have an opportunity to work on one of these pianos.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909326 - 10/21/05 01:13 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
It is the front portion of the duplex that is most effective.
Del and quite a few others believe the rear portion of the duplex, unless perfectly engineered, is worthless, draining the speaking portion of the strings of vibrational energy, and more often than not, creating unwanted noise.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

Top
#909327 - 10/21/05 01:28 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
Here is a patent application that uses the terminology as I understand it. An aliquot is not a duplex, but as curry points out is a "stop" that allows the duplex to form.

A duplex can be in front or in back.

A duplex is a freely vibrating portion of the string that is not struck.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5736660.html

I don't see why either the Boesendorfer, or the Grotrian freely vibrating portion would not be called a duplex. Granted, non-tuned.
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

Top
#909328 - 10/21/05 01:37 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
A search of the US patent and trademark database shows that there is no trademark on the term "duplex scale" or "duplex" near "scale".

A search of the copyright database shows that the term "duplex scale" has not been copyrighted either.

I will check my old 19th century piano tuning/maintenance books to see what usage "duplex scale" had back then later tonight. (That sounds impossible.)
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

Top
#909329 - 10/21/05 02:14 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Derick,
Thank you for the information regarding the front duplex on the Bosie Imperial.
Since I'm sure that you know how to post pictures could you post some of the front duplex on your piano?

I'm sure that you can also find a Mason & Hamlin somewhere to try and pluck the duplex segment. You'll find that on this design of the tunable duplex the tone lasts for a LOT longer then microseconds.

Roy and Curry,
In my first post on this thread I wrote this:
 Quote:
"Many, me included, like the duplex scale and believe it creates a fuller and more colorful treble with more projection.
Others like to criticize the system and may prefer an instrument without it.

It certainly seems though, that the critics of the duplex scale system are getting to be in the minority, as in the past few years there has been what looks like a "mad rush" of European manufacturers to redesign their pianos with duplex scales (I wonder if the success and recognition of modern pianos such as Estonia or Fazioli had anything to do with it).

C.Bechstein (their concert grand, the B-210 and the M/P 192), Seiler and Schimmel all came up in the last couple of years with newly designed instruments that incorporate duplex scaling.
Bosendorfer too, introduced a few years ago a new concert grand, the model 280 that has at least front duplexes."
[/b]
Now, the fact remains that of the modern and relatively newly designed pianos that are found in the group of "performance " pianos by the Larry Fine book (tiers 1 and 2) the vast majority of designers decided to incorporate the duplex scale system on their instrument unless they have a single stringing design that goes all the way up the treble.

If a certain designer of modern pianos decides NOT to incorporate this method into his instruments for one reason or another it is well within his rights. There is no right or wrong in this regard.

There is no reason though to discount the contribution many believe the duplexes have, including the rear duplexes, just because the designers of these instruments are not posting on this forum.
The fact remains, that designers of modern instruments at Mason & Hamlin, Fazioli, Estonia, C.Bechstein, Seiler and Schimmel found it to be important enough that they decided to incorporate it recently on their pianos.

I also wrote:

 Quote:
It is very clear to me that there are those that are not used to work with tunable duplexes and don't feel that they have any advantage. Some even feel that the duplex may cause unwanted harmonics and rings.
It is definitely my preference though to have tunable duplexes and I believe that some techs can make a good use of these.
Of course, the more experience one has with these systems the better they get in using their advantages. If one doesn't usually work with these, they may miss what I think as the advantage and feel quite the opposite, in much of the way that tech's that don't install Dampp- Chaser systems tend to criticize them.

The fact is though, that they have much less experience with tunable duplexes and although may be very knowledgeable techs their opinions are contradicted... [/b]
Please note that I respect your opinions, and the opinions of other techs and designers who think the duplexes don’t contribute much or even detract from the performance of the pianos.
However, I disagree with this assessment and believe that duplex scale, definitely including the tunable rear duplex scale can be beneficial. It seems that some of the most respected piano makers in the industry are holding the same opinion.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909330 - 10/21/05 02:54 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Posted by Grotriman:
 Quote:
I don't see why either the Boesendorfer, or the Grotrian freely vibrating portion would not be called a duplex. Granted, non-tuned[/b]
It seems that I should try and stay of this thread as too many people are "dug" in their positions from the other thread...but I'll try to answer your question here.

Please go to your piano and hold the middle C note down so the damper will lift without making a sound. Keep on holding your finger on this note. Now, hit with staccato the C one octave above the C your holding. Do you hear the sympathetic vibe?
Try it now with the F and then the G. Do you hear the C still ringing? I hope that you do.
Now, let the sound die and try to hit the A above middle C while still holding the C...now the A#..the B...the D...

Although there is some sympathetic noise, it is FAR weaker then when hitting the F or G and almost non-existent when compared to the sympathetic tone produced while hitting the higher C.

This is also how the duplex works. First, in order to be effective, the rear duplex have to have a certain length of string that will vibrate and produce a real tone (not just a micro second length of tone). Second, it has to be tuned (or set) to produce a sympathetic sound. Since the rear pressure bar on the Grotrian is not stright, and can't be set to produce a sympathetic sound to allduplex segment strings (as the length of the three strings are different) and since this part is very short and produces only a tone that last milliseconds this isn't a true duplex scale.

Yes, it is a free portion of the string that is not struck, but it is not really sympathetic to the string that is struck.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909331 - 10/21/05 03:02 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i decided to also try to pursue grotriman's search for a functional definition of "duplex scale."

in the book produced by steinway, "88 keys, the making of a steinway," here is how they define the term "duplex scale:"

"a design scheme where the ends of the piano's strings are sized so as to vibrate in sympathy with the main portion, resulting in a fuller sound."

by this definition, grotrian has a duplex scale design.

ori, i still do not understand exactly what makes the grotrian design, in your mind, not a duplex? it's not a tunable duplex, but it appears to still be a duplex, using this generic definition.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909332 - 10/21/05 03:07 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
ori, we cross-posted. i see that you have answered my question with your rationale.

frankly, i really do not set much store by studying any piano's scale design. one cannot deduce from a scale design description if one will fall in love with a piano. play the piano and decide on that basis.

to say that one design is better than another only means something if you've defined the tone and touch you are in search of. which is pretty difficult to do if you are the average consumer.

valid points are being made all around, but i hope the average consumer reading here will not get caught up in thinking that any particular make of piano is better than another for him because of the particulars of the scale design, or whether or not it has a tunable duplex.

play the piano and trust your ears and fingers.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909333 - 10/21/05 03:25 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Pique,
In case you were writing this while I posted my last remarks and didn't read the post I made above your...please read it as It may answer your question.

To make it even simpler though, and by using your own supplied definition, duplex is "a design scheme where the ends of the piano's strings are SIZED so as to vibrate in SYMPATHY with the MAIN portion, resulting in a fuller sound."

Well, the relatively short part of the string that is between the bridge and the pressure bar on the Grotrian is not sized to vibrate in sympathy to the main part of the note.

I’ll repeat it a bit more clearly…it is not SIZED to vibrate in SYMPATHY to the MAIN part of the note.

Or maybe I should have written that…it is NOT sized to vibrate in sympathy to the main part of the note.

In any case, by this definition, Grotrian does NOT have a duplex scale design.
It's really quite simple.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909334 - 10/21/05 03:29 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10363
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
As I said in the earlier thread, when I pluck the rear duplex (or whatever one wants to call it) of the Grotrian, the three strings ring out a major third. In other words, if the first one plucked gives a high C, then the second one would be a D and the third one would be an E. This then repeats if I pluck the duplex of the next note up. Everything is lifted a half step up. This regularity suggests (but does not prove) that it is not an accident. Does it have any effect? I really don't know. The piano has wonderful sustain, so a tuneable duplex does not seem to be an absolute necessity for a piano to have a singing sustain.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#909335 - 10/21/05 03:32 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Pique,
We crossed posts again... :p
You're right though.
What really matter in this regard of the design is if the tone produced is to your liking or not.

Other elements of piano design may influence the way the instruments will hold up and perform in the future, but certainly not this one.
So regarding the duplex scale I agree with you that one has to "play the piano and trust your ears". \:\)
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909336 - 10/21/05 03:57 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
This is a true rear duplex scale as used by Steinway and others. Each rear duplex bridge precisely terminates all three strings of a note into a defined length. The system in Grotrian and others does not.
www.tinypic.com/et6reh.jpg
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

Top
#909337 - 10/21/05 05:57 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Derick II Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 1426
Loc: New York
Ori,

Here's a pic of the front duplex on a 290.

BTW, when I made the comment about the rear duplex or whatever is the accurate term for it, I was only speaking of this duplex on my piano; the front, "traditional", as I know it duplex, definitely "sang". The tone on the rear "duplex" lasted just a few micro-seconds.

Derick

_________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."[/b] - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


Top
#909338 - 10/21/05 06:23 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
Derick, the front duplex on the 280 and 290 is very effective. I bet yours sounds even better in the confines of your living room. The older 213 had a front duplex, I don't know why they did'nt continue it in the new model 214.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

Top
#909339 - 10/21/05 06:25 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
I doubt it is the duplex section which is producing the tone. What is happening is that the vibrational energy passes under the capo bar to the speaking length of the string. You won't get much sound if you damp the speaking length.

I suspect that the biggest effect of all these things is changing the impedence of the end points of the speaking length. This would work whether the strings are damped in the duplex section or not.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909340 - 10/21/05 06:32 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
BDB, the front duplexes on the Bösendorfer are very effective. If you touch your finger to the strings of of a note in the duplex section, then strike the key, the tone is very bland. Remove your finger and strike again, the tone blossoms dramatically.
I'm sure Derick can verify this.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

Top
#909341 - 10/21/05 06:50 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
seebechstein Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 1085
Loc: houston
(sorry, wrong forum.)

Top
#909342 - 10/21/05 10:13 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
interesting discussion guys
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#909343 - 10/22/05 05:04 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Roy123:
My memory may be mistaken, but I believe Del called rear duplexes worthless, or something like that. I haven't seen a post from Del for a while--I hope he's still here. Those who extoll the virtues of duplex scales may be reacting more to the sound of a front duplex. Just idle speculation... [/b]
The following is quoted from something I wrote a few months back. Nothing since then has caused me to change my mind.

From: “Benefit of a duplex or triplex scale design,” 27 May 2005

 Quote:
There is no clear theoretical function for the so-called tuned duplex, or aliquot string segments used by some piano makers. The most commonly held belief is that the tuned duplex string segment (whether it be front or back) will somehow reinforce the fundamental. And it is true that they will often introduce what is often called color to the overall sound mix. At least when it is used at the front end of the string (forward of the capo tastro bar). But this comes at the expense of sustain — and this in a part of the scale where sustain is most at a premium — and with the introduction of a strong propensity toward various obnoxious string buzzes and whistles. There is no proven benefit (though there are a lot of unproven and unsubstantiated claims) for the back tuned duplex (whether it is tunable or not).

Many of the recently introduced so-called tuned duplex systems are not functional at all — they just look similar to those that are. To work as the supporters of this system claim the string deflection angles at the capo tastro V-bar must be quite shallow and/or the string segment between the V-bar and the first bearing bar must be quite long. In other words the string’s speaking length termination must be imprecise and inefficient so that some amount of vibrating energy can be transferred to the duplex string segment. In theory, then, this energy must have some mechanism by which it can feed back to the speaking portion of the string. If the speaking portion of the string is efficiently terminated — i.e., with an adequate string termination angle coupled with a reasonably short duplex string segment — this energy transfer will not occur. Many of the so-called tuned duplex systems I’ve seen lately have string deflection angles that are great enough to limit this energy transfer (despite the claims made for them). At least, while these systems do not actually function as true tuned duplex systems they are not prone to the various string noises that so often plague the real thing.

I have not yet heard a convincing argument to be made for the back tuned duplex system. And I’ve really tried to make these thing work. I’ve also seen demonstrations put on by some of the best of the true believers. I keep coming away convinced that the inherent limitations of the systems outweigh any potential or claimed benefits. The best that can be said for the best of them is that the don’t due much harm and they may add some color to the overall sound mix at the expense of some sustain and at the danger of introducing some miscellaneous, and usually obnoxious, string noises.

-----

You might also look at the topic: Duplex Scaling that started 28 July 2004.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909344 - 10/22/05 06:24 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
As I pointed out before, there are those that don't believe in the benefits of the duplex scale. I guess that this is the reason that certain piano designers decided not to incorporate this part of the design into their pianos. The fact is still, however, that with the exception of those that use single string design to the top of the instrument, the overwhelming majority of tier one and two pianos have some kind of a back duplex scale system and even more use front duplexes whether tunable or not.
The “trend” among modern piano designers seeking to improve the tonal projection and color of their instruments is to use duplexes and they invest much time in engineering systems that will work properly and benefit the piano.

The duplex segment part indeed has to be relatively long (again, as I mentioned before) in order to be effective, and the system has to be designed to perform correctly. Otherwise, some of the criticisms that we hear regarding duplexes can occur.
This may be the reason that in most low-end instruments there are no duplexes, and certainly not tunable duplexes.

Now in theory, as we sometimes here from the critics of the system, duplexes may reduce the sustaining qualities of an instrument...however, complex theoretical explanations aside, does anyone have a real issue with the sustain Mason & Hamlin, Fazioli , Estonia or a C.Bechstein?

Some of the pianos that use tunable duplex scale designs are actually KNOWN for having remarkable sustain....

Again, this isn't a black and white issue. There are those designers that don't like duplexes and are free to design their pianos without them.
They seem to be however in a rapidly growing minority.

The designers of modern instruments, not only from Mason, Fazioli , Estonia and C.Bechstein...but also Seiler, Schimmel Bohemia and Bosendorfer (front ), in addition to many other older designs by Steinway, Yamaha, Kawai and many other makes...
I guess the designers of these instruments weighed the advantages/disadvantages of the system and decided to use duplexes after all.

This isn't a black and white issue, and the ultimate test in this part of design is simply what does one think of the sound.

I’m glad that we have a piano designer on board that is willing to share his theories as to why he decided not to use duplexes on his pianos. I wish though, that the designers of Bosendorfer (front), Fazioli, Mason & Hamlin, Estonia, C.Bechstein and many others would have been writing here too telling us why they decided to use duplexes on their piano and why they believe that a that is properly designed duplex system can benefit the tone in the treble section of the piano.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909345 - 10/22/05 06:54 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Rich D. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 1255
Loc: Rehoboth Beach De. USA
Ori,
It is a good question why piano makers like Bosendorfer and C.Bechstein and others are now designing pianos using duplex scales. Especially whern there reputations were built on their own unique designs (non duplex). Do they all want to sound more like Steinways?

Rich
_________________________
Retired at the beach (well maybe not completely)

"Life is like a piano....what you get out of it depends on how you play it"
Anonymous


Top
#909346 - 10/22/05 07:32 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
I think the reason manufacturers are adding them is that they are cheap for the amount of advertising hype that you can get out of them.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909347 - 10/22/05 07:37 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
I don't think that these companies are designing their pianos specifically to be more like Steinway (although I wouldn't eliminate it as one of the possible reasons).
Many high end European pianos have their own sound and character and are rather proud of it.
I believe that many of the European companies have come to recognize and admit that there are desirable elements of sound that can be obtained by using duplexes.

Steinway, as you probably know, wasn't the only company to use duplex scales.
So yes, saying that using duplexes is "a la Steinway" may be accurate, but it could also be said that this design is "a la other companies" that used (use) duplexes".

Steinway was also using duplex scale designs for more then a century, and I think that if these makers wanted to sound more like Steinway they had many opportunities to do so in the past.
Besides, if piano manufacturers wanted to sound more like Steinways they would have other ways of doing so other then incorporating duplex scales, sometimes saving a lot of money in the process...so I would think they'd go there first.

The designers I spoke to and decided to incorporate duplex scales in their pianos felt that it contributes to the color and the projection in the treble. They felt that this is an improvement and without the duplexes the sound may be thinner and/or duller.

As to why this kind of sound seem to be more popular with European makers nowadays and the reasons thees makers felt they needed to change things...well, I do have some theories and ideas, but since I'd only be guessing at this point, I'd rather keep my thoughts about this matter to myself.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909348 - 10/22/05 07:51 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
I think the reason manufacturers are adding them is that they are cheap for the amount of advertising hype that you can get out of them. [/b]
This is ridiculous.
If a customer goes to the vast majority of dealers that carry pianos with duplex scale, the chance that they hear any explanation about duplexes and the way they are thought to contribute to the sound is slim.

Actually, I'd bet that the majority of sales people in this industry don't really know what a duplex scale is.

How many reports did we hear from people that went to Steinway dealers, and what thy were told by these dealers...and as I recall, none of them came back telling about the "marvelous duplex scale system".

How many of the consumers reading this ever heard of duplex scales before reading on this forum? How many of you knew what they are?
Even in the beginning of this thread there seem to be confusion among relatively knowledgeable readers...

"Hype"???
The only "hype" I see is the "hype" about the use of things that almost no consumer is even aware of as "advertising hype".

The biggest “hype” is to call everything a "hype".
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909349 - 10/22/05 07:54 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Varcon Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/15/04
Posts: 1931
Loc: Mount Vernon, Georgia 30445
This is an interesting discussion and some definitions should be given as aliquots seem to be bandied about without realizing that essentially it is a mathematics term used for something that is divided into equal parts (fractions)and is applicable to the Pythagoras discovery that a single string divides into equal parts in a continuing sequence or its aliquot parts, thus: halves, thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, sevenths, etc. and that accounts for the acousticians' partials, overtones, harmonic series.

As I understand it, the aliquot on a M&H or other piano is set by the factory to resonate with the speaking part of the string and thus enhance the tone and it is one of the mathematically determined divisions of the strings. It is sort of like a violinist or string player lightly touching a vibrating string at a point and creating an overtone or harmonic. I'm sure the designer of the scale of the piano took into consideration how to devise a method to get the non-speaking part of the string to vibrate sympathetically with the speaking part to enhance the sound.

If a piano is in tune then one can hold a key down without sounding it (lower registers work best) and play the same key at a higher register quickly (staccato) and hear the vibration. Simply hold the key down and slowly do a chromatic scale--all sharp staccatos with time to listen--and you will hear some that cause the held key tone to vibrate while others do nothing. To make it vibrate it must be in the dividing sequence for that pitch. These overtones make the music richer and when the pedal (damper) is applied it frees all the sequential aliquots to vibrate freely. So, if the aliquots in the design of the instrument are to be effective they MUST be in sync with the speaking length of the string.

Some more erudite acoustic professional can elucidate better than I can but this should help those unfamiliar with the process of tonal relationships.

Top
#909350 - 10/22/05 10:07 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 3886
Loc: San Francisco
Of the Grotrian 'duplex' (or mixture scale) Piano*Dad said:
 Quote:
if the first one plucked gives a high C, then the second one would be a D and the third one would be an E
This may not technically be a tuned duplex, but these notes are certainly relative to the note being played. Those familiar with the harmonic series will recognize that these three notes are upper partials relating to the fundamental tone of "C".

In organ terms, we have a consonant octave (C), a slightly dissonant tierce (E), and a more dissonant none or neuvième (D) which adds spicy color. Nones and tierces can be rather discordant if they are close to the fundamental, but are better tolerated if they are several octaves above (as they would be in a duplex).

I find it interesting that some manufacturers take pains to tune their duplexes (with Blüthner taking the prize); I assume they want to eliminate any dissonant overtones. In spite of the fact that Grotrian's 'mixture scale' contains off-unison pitches, I really like the Grotrian sound! It is quite distinctive.

Discussions in this thread have been focusing on the vibrational energy of a string being transferred to the duplex portion of the same string.[/b] No doubt that's true, but isn't it also true that any undamped duplex will reinforce upper harmonics for multiple notes, not just the note associated with it? This means the duplex has the potential to color the entire instrument in a somewhat unpredictable manner.
_________________________
Grotrian 225
S&S Hamburg-C
M&H "A" at home

Top
#909351 - 10/22/05 10:27 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10363
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Whippen boy,

What I haven't (yet) done is to see how that major third in the rear duplex corresponds to the note itself.

If Del is right, these rear duplexes are no big deal anyway. I may play some games with felt to see if I hear a difference.

By the way, how's the big Grotrian in church?

Best,

David F
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#909352 - 10/23/05 01:59 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
Unfortunately, no matter how well the duplexes are tuned physically by the placement of the aliquot, it really isn't possible to tune them that accurately in reality, due to the imbalances in the tension of the wire in that section. One tries to get the tension even in all sections of the string, but it is pretty much impossible to tune the duplex section well enough to distinguish between, say, a perfect interval and a tempered interval.

This doesn't apply to a Blüthner, of course, but even there, the tonal quality of a string which is either plucked or vibrating sympathetically is not identical to one struck by a hammer. The initial excitation of the string affects the pitch of the string to some extent, because the harder you move a string initially, the more tension there is, and the higher the pitch. How you move the string also changes the harmonic content. So even on a Blüthner, you aren't going to get the fourth string as exact as you can get the other three.

The results are rather unpredictable, then, which is probably what leads some people to dislike duplex scaling. I tend to ignore extraneous sounds when I need to, which, besides making me very popular with stage crews, makes me somewhat indifferent. The effect of most duplex systems is, for all intents and purposes, inaudible, as you can tell by damping them or not. When they are audible, the difference may not be preferable.

The only real difference may be in the impedance matching that I mentioned before. This would affect the ability of the string to vibrate more freely at the ends, particularly at certain frequencies. Damping the duplex portion of the string, if done lightly enough not to affect the speaking portion of the string, would probably have no effect on the impedance, so that without a big redesign, it would be difficult to see whether there is an audible difference or not. Even then, it would probably not amount to much, as the examples I previously cited (Steinway adding them, Baldwin removing them) show.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909353 - 10/23/05 03:06 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ori:
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
I think the reason manufacturers are adding them is that they are cheap for the amount of advertising hype that you can get out of them. [/b]
This is ridiculous.
If a customer goes to the vast majority of dealers that carry pianos with duplex scale, the chance that they hear any explanation about duplexes and the way they are thought to contribute to the sound is slim.

Actually, I'd bet that the majority of sales people in this industry don't really know what a duplex scale is.

[/b]
Actually it may not be as ridiculous as it may seem at first blush. I’ve not looked at all of the newly implemented tuned duplex systems out there but I have looked at a few and at least some of them do not function as aliquot string segments. For enough energy to bleed across the V-bar to be effective two conditions are necessary, 1) the string angle must be relatively shallow and, 2) the string segment between the V-bar and the bearing bar must be relatively long. Yes, the string segment on the front side of the V-bar must also be tuned to some specific partial of the fundamental (and most are not), but it must be long enough to make the speaking length termination relatively inefficient.

If the string angle is greater than approximately 12° to 15° then the aliquot (duplex simply means the string is divided into two parts, aliquot implies that the string is divided into some specific fraction of the original) string segment must be upwards of 35 or 40 mm long or the string termination efficiency will be too great to allow much energy to bleed across the V-bar. If the string deflection angle is much greater than 15° the aliquot string segment is not going to get much energy no matter how long it is.

At least some of the newly introduced pseudo-aliquot systems are not functional aliquot systems. Either the string deflection angle is too great or the duplex string length is too short. Or both. I see two possible scenarios here: either the company implementing the feature did not understand how it works and got it wrong or they did understand the system and wanted to play the game but didn’t want the problems associated with the system. So they made it look like they were adding the front aliquot system but kept the string deflection angle well up there and/or the duplex string segments short enough to avoid the string noise and buzzing problems. Of course, in the process they also prevented the energy bleed that gives these systems their characteristic sound.

I don’t deny that tuning the front duplex string segment can/does affect the tone quality of the piano. And if you like that aliquot sizzle, great — your piano should have that feature. The problem with them, however, is that they often introduce unwanted side-effects. Two in particular. First, they contribute to the short sustain problem many pianos already have through the treble sections. And, second, they are the primary cause of many undesirable string buzzes and whistles through the capo tastro/V-bar sections. Some of these problems can be alleviated if the condition of the V-bar is kept just perfect but that is hard to do. And it’s expensive. The most common “solution” to the string noise problem is to mute out the offending string(s), but this reduces sustain time even further.

As for tuning the rear duplex, I’ve spent countless hours tuning these things, attempting to duplicate the dramatic claims made for them, but have yet found them to add anything of value to the tonal mix. Contrary to popular belief they do not add power or sustain to the sound envelope. Nor, except on a more-or-less random basis, do they add any measurable tone color to the tonal mix. And it’s not just me. I’ve attended seminars where this feature has been demonstrated by staunch advocates and self-appointed experts (including one gentleman who patented a tool to more precisely adjust the bloody things) and when the demonstrations were all finished the consensus among a broad spectrum of piano tuners and technicians was that no tonal improvements had been made.

As long as some folks claim that they do hear something back there I suppose the jury will remain out. But, as for me, I’m going on to more fertile grounds in my quest for improved tonal performance.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909354 - 10/23/05 10:04 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 3886
Loc: San Francisco
Piano*Dad, the Grotrian in church is great, thanks for asking! I'll be playing the daylights out of it, in about an hour! \:D

As you know, in spite of using a sort of 'mixture' (duplex) scale, Grotrians have PLENTY of sustain - almost more than needed.

You asked how a major third relates to the note itself. In the harmonic series, an "E" is the fifth (or is it fourth?) upper partial of the "C" two octaves below. Higher up in the series other notes (such as ninths, and even minor thirds) start appearing.

Here is an interesting website: Harmonic Series

If you hold down a low "C" without striking it and loudly play the other notes in the chart, you will begin to hear the low "C" sound. It will sound richer and louder, the more notes you play. It will start sounding more like you have actually struck the low C.

For any given note, the upper partials are an octave, twelfth, fifteenth, seventeenth (major third), nineteenth, flatted twenty-first (septième), twenty-second, twenty-third (none), twenty-fourth, etc. etc. The series goes way up beyond audibility.

If you were to somehow remove these harmonics from a tone, the note would begin to sound like a computer-generated sine-wave tone, rather uninteresting.

One more interesting thought: if you could remove the initial attack of a note and listen to the steady tone only, it can become difficult to tell what sort of instrument is playing (oboe? violin?). It seems that the burst of transient harmonics at the attack helps us to identify what instrument is playing. Larry Fine makes special mention of Grotrian's attack; perhaps it is their mixture scale that contributes to that.
_________________________
Grotrian 225
S&S Hamburg-C
M&H "A" at home

Top
#909355 - 10/23/05 11:29 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Del,
The reason that the statements made are ridiculous have nothing to do with any theoretical explanations, or even the question of whether the system works or not.
It has to do with the facts that almost no consumer buying a piano ever hear the term "duplex scale", that most sales people don't even know what it is, and those sales people that heard the term probably won't be able to explain to their clients what it is and ho it is supposed to function even if their life dependent on it.

We have so many pianofiles here, that have probably looked in to their piano purchase much more thoroughly then the average buyer, and I'm sure that those that heard about it before their purchase were in the minority.

This is what makes the claim ridiculous.

If something is made for the only reason of "advertising" and may even be actually "detriment" to the sound then it should better be used as "advertising".
If it isn't used as advertising in any meaningful way then to claim that this is the reason for it is ridiculous.

The average piano buyers reading this can make up their mind by the "numerous" times they heard about the duplex system and it's advantages while piano shopping...or rather didn't hear about it.

Now, regarding the system itself...
You wrote:

 Quote:
I don’t deny that tuning the front duplex string segment can/does affect the tone quality of the piano. And if you like that aliquot sizzle, great — your piano should have that feature. [/b]
Great, were in agreement on the fact that the front duplex DOES make a difference. In fact, any one muting the duplex segment part in a properly designed duplex system will probably hear the difference immediately. One may call it "sizzling" when it is unmated and may also call is "dull" when it is muted or isn't there (it's been called thin also when there is no duplex system). This could very well be a tone preference as you mentioned.

You also wrote:

 Quote:
The problem with them, however, is that they often introduce unwanted side-effects. Two in particular. First, they contribute to the short sustain problem many pianos already have through the treble sections.
[/b]
Well, even if one would accept this, then when some instruments featuring front duplex scales are by no mean lacking of any sustain, it does make this argument somewhat theoreticle and moot, doesn't it?
Either the many high end companies, that designed instruments with duplexes and have great sustain found a way to design their duplexes properly, or that they have other ways to achieve great sustain and decided that at a certain point, they’d rather have the tonal advantages (as they see it) of the system then even MORE sustain.

You also said:

 Quote:
And, second, they are the primary cause of many undesirable string buzzes and whistles through the capo tastro/V-bar sections. Some of these problems can be alleviated if the condition of the V-bar is kept just perfect but that is hard to do. And it’s expensive.

[/b]
And even if one would accept this, the tunable duplexes can solve the issue. It give the tech CONTROL.
By changing the aliquots to larger or smaller size, and by moving these towards the front or back, both the string angle and the string length can be changed.
so one can decide if they want the piano to "sizzle" more, or to be more dull.
The most common "solution" as you described it, is not necessarily the right solution, and you shouldn't judge the effectiveness of something by the wrong approaches that some techs, even most techs, are taking to resolve a sound that you may find to be objectionable.

I at least, don't decide whether to change or move the aliquots by measuring their angles or string length. I make this decision by listening to the piano and trying to get it to sound how I want it to. I couldn't care less if the angle is 12, 14 or 16 degrees as long as I can get the desirable tone, and I don't waste my time on theoretical measurements when each piano may be somewhat different, enough different at least in order to eliminate the benefits of generalizing the ideal angles or length.

Also, some of the higher end companies featuring duplex scales are using certain methods to strengthen and reinforce the capo bar to keep it in perfect condition, whether you're aware of them doing it or not. And yes, this can be expensive (this may also be the reason that tunable duplex designs on modern instruments are found on higher end pianos and not exactly on the lower end)...but some of the companies featuring these, decided to bear the cost of doing it right and went on doing so.

Regarding the rear duplexes you wrote:
 Quote:
As for tuning the rear duplex, I’ve spent countless hours tuning these things, attempting to duplicate the dramatic claims made for them, but have yet found them to add anything of value to the tonal mix. Contrary to popular belief they do not add power or sustain to the sound envelope. Nor, except on a more-or-less random basis,
[/b]
And also:

 Quote:
But, as for me, I’m going on to more fertile grounds in my quest for improved tonal performance.[/b]
So wait... here you say that you think that the rear duplex doesn't add much EXCEPT on a random basis...well, please take into account the possibility that there are those that didn't decide to give up and move to more "fertile grounds", and that they may have found a way to make these improvements of sustain and projection to be less random.
If there is a "random" improvement, there is an improvement. If someone figured out how to eliminate the "random" part, they will stay with the improvement. Those that moved to other pastures may be left only with theoretical criticism.

Some piano designers and companies, decided to bear the considerable additional cost of producing PROPERLY designed duplex scale systems on their pianos.
I wouldn't relate to the designers of most high-end modern instruments, that believe the duplex design adds to the tonal quality as "self-appointed experts" but rather treat them with the respect they deserve for creating marvelous instruments.

It could be however, that as long as there are those that look at pianos as the sum of angles and numbers, and are quick to measure things instead of listening to the instrument, this question may still be open. But for now, there is a simple way of deciding what is one's preference...

If one plays the relatively newly designed Fazioli, Mason & Hamlin, Estonia, C.Bechstein, Bosendorfer concert grands, Schimmel and Seiler pianos (which all of them have incorporated duplex scales into their modern pianos), and yet find their treble inferior to the treble section found on instruments designed by Del... well, then the duplexes (or lack there of ) may have something to do with it.

If however, one actually like the in the treble sections of the Mason & Hamlin, Fazioli, Bosendorfer imperial, C.Bechstein etc (these are all modern pianos, I don't mention instruments like Steinway, and others that also use duplexes because they are older designs) better then the instruments designed by our fellow member here... well, then the possibility that these instruments produce a beautiful tone in the treble is also be due in part to the duplex scale design shouldn't be discounted.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909356 - 10/23/05 03:02 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
del, i, for one, really appreciate that you are posting here on this subject, and value your input.

would you please settle for us whether or not grotrian's current design is a duplex scale design? it seems to me by your definition of the term, it is. it clearly is not an aliquot design.

ori, i happen to agree with you that these pianos have beautiful sustain and tonal color. however, i don't care for the tone of your post to del. you come across as being nasty and as attacking his credibility as a designer. care to edit your post?
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909357 - 10/23/05 03:39 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Pique,
Don't know what to edit...
I have all the respect for Del and appreciate his posts. Most often I'm in agreement with his opinion, but sometimes (like on this issue) not.
Yet, I don't mean to be insulting and don't mean to attack his credibility as a designer.
If I point out that other designers might not be in agreement with him than I don't think either he, or you should take offence to it.
If my comments were insulting then I'd say that his comments could be viewed as very insulting to many makers and designers that don't share his opinion but share mine.
I don't view though his comments as an attack of any sorts on any other designer’s credibility and stated before that he is entitled to his opinion and view of things.
As I also mentioned, it isn't a black and white issue and there are many designers that like to incorporate this system into their pianos, and some that don't.
writing on a forum when it's harder to convey emotions is hard enough without having to deal with those that feel a bit "sensitive".

If I had spoken to Del face to face I would have said exactly what I wrote here and I don't think that he would have been insulted. I hope that he isn't right now even if I don't agree with him and that you are just over reacting...but if he wasn't insulted, I'm afraid that after reading your post he may get upset as he see that some see it as an attack to his credibility.
So to Del, I hope I made myself clear that I respect you and don't mean to undermine anything by stating a position that is different then yours. And to Pique, comments such as this contribute to nothing. If I insulted Del he can and may have replied either here or privately without your help. Words like yours contribute to nothing but flaming a situation that isn't flamed. Also, if you object to something that is said, then please quote the part you view as offensive, or were profanities, accusations and personal attacks are suppose to appear and don't make blank comments about "tone".
It seems that it's hard enough to post comments, opinions or factual information on this board without being attacked by some people that have appointed themselves as the local police.
I doubt that Del, if feel insulted, really needs your help.
So would you kindly care to edit your post?

Now to make sure that my comments to you were made in good spirit I'll add this here... \:\)

Regarding the Grotrian, the pictures of the back stringing show that there is no duplex scale design there. That's pretty simple and this is also what Grotrian told you.
It also not a big surprise because this piano is single strung all the way up to the top.
If you post pictures of the front part, then someone could comment whether this is a duplex design or not.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909358 - 10/23/05 03:56 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
One can add rear duplex aliquots even if the piano is single strung. The designer just needs to leave enough room between the aliquot and the hitch pin.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909359 - 10/23/05 05:26 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1715
Loc: Massachusetts
More idle speculation... Ori has commented on the great sustain of some modern pianos that have duplex scaling. However, without some experimentation and/or measurements, we don't really know if the good sustain exists despite the duplex string segments, or if, as Del has mentioned, the angle of the string over the capo tastro bar is such that little to no energy is transferred to the duplex segment.

I guess my point is that there are a number of factors that determine a piano's sustain, and just because a piano with good sustain uses duplex scaling doesn't mean that the sustain wouldn't be even better if the instrument were designed without it.

Top
#909360 - 10/23/05 05:46 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ori:
Del,
(1) The reason that the statements made are ridiculous have nothing to do with any theoretical explanations, or even the question of whether the system works or not.
It has to do with the facts that almost no consumer buying a piano ever hear the term "duplex scale", that most sales people don't even know what it is, and those sales people that heard the term probably won't be able to explain to their clients what it is and ho it is supposed to function even if their life dependent on it.

….
(2) Great, were in agreement on the fact that the front duplex DOES make a difference. In fact, any one muting the duplex segment part in a properly designed duplex system will probably hear the difference immediately. One may call it "sizzling" when it is unmated and may also call is "dull" when it is muted or isn't there (it's been called thin also when there is no duplex system). This could very well be a tone preference as you mentioned.

….
(3) Well, even if one would accept this, then when some instruments featuring front duplex scales are by no mean lacking of any sustain, it does make this argument somewhat theoreticle and moot, doesn't it?
Either the many high end companies, that designed instruments with duplexes and have great sustain found a way to design their duplexes properly, or that they have other ways to achieve great sustain and decided that at a certain point, they’d rather have the tonal advantages (as they see it) of the system then even MORE sustain.

….
(4) And even if one would accept this, the tunable duplexes can solve the issue. It give the tech CONTROL.
By changing the aliquots to larger or smaller size, and by moving these towards the front or back, both the string angle and the string length can be changed. So one can decide if they want the piano to "sizzle" more, or to be more dull.
The most common "solution" as you described it, is not necessarily the right solution, and you shouldn't judge the effectiveness of something by the wrong approaches that some techs, even most techs, are taking to resolve a sound that you may find to be objectionable.

….
(5) I at least, don't decide whether to change or move the aliquots by measuring their angles or string length. I make this decision by listening to the piano and trying to get it to sound how I want it to. I couldn't care less if the angle is 12, 14 or 16 degrees as long as I can get the desirable tone, and I don't waste my time on theoretical measurements when each piano may be somewhat different, enough different at least in order to eliminate the benefits of generalizing the ideal angles or length.

….
(6) Also, some of the higher end companies featuring duplex scales are using certain methods to strengthen and reinforce the capo bar to keep it in perfect condition, whether you're aware of them doing it or not. And yes, this can be expensive (this may also be the reason that tunable duplex designs on modern instruments are found on higher end pianos and not exactly on the lower end)...but some of the companies featuring these, decided to bear the cost of doing it right and went on doing so.

….
(7) So wait... here you say that you think that the rear duplex doesn't add much EXCEPT on a random basis...well, please take into account the possibility that there are those that didn't decide to give up and move to more "fertile grounds", and that they may have found a way to make these improvements of sustain and projection to be less random.
If there is a "random" improvement, there is an improvement. If someone figured out how to eliminate the "random" part, they will stay with the improvement. Those that moved to other pastures may be left only with theoretical criticism.

….
(8) Some piano designers and companies, decided to bear the considerable additional cost of producing PROPERLY designed duplex scale systems on their pianos.
I wouldn't relate to the designers of most high-end modern instruments, that believe the duplex design adds to the tonal quality as "self-appointed experts" but rather treat them with the respect they deserve for creating marvelous instruments.

….
It could be however, that as long as there are those that look at pianos as the sum of angles and numbers, and are quick to measure things instead of listening to the instrument, this question may still be open. But for now, there is a simple way of deciding what is one's preference...

If one plays the relatively newly designed Fazioli, Mason & Hamlin, Estonia, C. Bechstein, Bosendorfer concert grands, Schimmel and Seiler pianos (which all of them have incorporated duplex scales into their modern pianos), and yet find their treble inferior to the treble section found on instruments designed by Del... well, then the duplexes (or lack there of ) may have something to do with it.

If however, one actually like the in the treble sections of the Mason & Hamlin, Fazioli, Bosendorfer imperial, C. Bechstein etc (these are all modern pianos, I don't mention instruments like Steinway, and others that also use duplexes because they are older designs) better then the instruments designed by our fellow member here... well, then the possibility that these instruments produce a beautiful tone in the treble is also be due in part to the duplex scale design shouldn't be discounted. [/b]
(1) So why do I hear factory sales reps and dealer salespeople touting the mis-named “duplex” scale in their new pianos? (All pianos have a duplex scale. The question is whether or not the duplex string segment is tuned.) Why do I see this feature cropping up more and more in sales literature? Function aside, this has become a sales feature used by many—even in pianos where it clearly doesn’t function as a true tuned aliquot system.

(2) This is a meaningless test. Well, almost meaningless. It is a good way to test a duplex system to see whether or not it is really functioning as a tuned aliquot system. If the note goes dull and sustain drops off when your finger is placed on the duplex string segment, it is. If the tone and sustain rate do not change appreciably, it is not. And, of course, there are many levels in between all on and all off—sometimes even within a given piano.

The worst of all worlds is heard when a functioning tuned aliquot string segment is artificially muted. The system deliberately allows some amount of energy to bleed across the string termination to the tuned aliquot string segment. When this string segment is damped with some energy absorbing substance (whether it be some piece of felt or your finger) sustain time will decrease—you’re drawing energy from the string (starting with the higher partials) and damping it out much faster than it would be absorbed into the plate. And, for the same reason, the tone will go dull—the highest partials are damped most readily by a viscoelastic material. Yet this type of muting is often done to dampen out the extraneous and irritating string noises that frequently develop in these systems. Sometimes there are alternate solutions but more often than not, unless the technician is prepared to so some serious plate grinding, alternate solutions simply do not exist. At least not in the real world in which most pianos, piano owners and technicians exist.

(3) Sustain time is a performance parameter determined by many things. The only way to test whether or not the tuned aliquot system is adding to or detracting from the sustain time of a particular piano is to measure it one way, change the system on the same piano and measure it again (without making any other changes). This is something I have done several times on several different pianos. In every case the when tuned aliquot system was functioning the sustain time decreased. When the string deflection angles were increased and the duplex string segment length was decreased (with no other changes being made), sustain time increased.

Tuned aliquot systems cannot, by design and fimction, add to the piano’s sustain time. Energy is deliberately drawn from the speaking portion of the string and transferred to the tuned aliquot string segment. Some of this energy may make it back across the V-bar (or whatever) but some of it is transferred directly to the plate where it is readily absorbed and converted into heat. Gray iron is good at this—it has a very high damping factor. (Which is another feature touted by many that is, in reality, actually a detriment to the overall performance of the piano.) Energy lost to the plate is not available to the strings nor to the bridge.

(4) Control? Most so-called tuned aliquot systems are not adjustable. Yes, some are but it is the rare technician who has even a vague idea of what to do with them. And the even rarer piano owner who is willing to pay to have these things experimented with. Most of those that are adjustable are adjustable only in length, not in string deflection angle. At least not without replacing some parts or adding shims and/or spacers. Hardly the kind of thing the average tuner is going to do during the average tuning call.

While you discount (with some justification) the systems used by Steinway (and the various Steinway clones) as not being true tuned aliquot systems, these are still the systems most commonly used. They are not adjustable by any reasonable means and the field technician has very little control over them.

(5) I don’t go around measuring string deflection angles on every piano I come across either. But when I’m studying a system and trying to lay a good theoretical basis for how it works and what its parameters are it’s a good idea to do so. It’s certainly not something I’m going to apologize for doing. I’m of the opinion that knowledge and understanding are always good things. Even when they fly in the face of conventional wisdom.

(6) I am aware that some companies are (still) trying to come up with V-bar materials and configurations that do not allow the string to quickly wear grooves in them. This has been going on for something over 100 years. And, while I don’t claim to have seen them all, in over 40 years as a field technician, a piano rebuilder/remanufacturer, a piano builder and researcher I’ve seen and used quite a few. Steinway, some decades back, heat-hardened the surface of the V-bar. (I’ve done this myself on more than a few soft plates.) Yamaha tried inserting a steel rod in a groove cast in the bottom of the V-bar. (I’ve retrofitted this on a few old plates as well.) But in every case I know of so far manufacturers have had to back away from these techniques somewhat to keep from prematurely breaking strings. The harder the V-bar material the faster strings break. As well, the sharper the V-bar radius the faster strings break. Other methods I’ve tried include the use of separate V-bar castings made of various materials such as manganese bronze, aluminum bronze and silicon bronze (all of which are harder than gray iron) pinned to the bottom of the capo tastro bar. Chickering used inverted agraffes inserted into the bottom of the capo tastro bar and, not being one to pass on borrowing a good idea when I see one, I designed this system into the Walter 175 as well. It the prototype, at least, it works very nicely.

(7) Yes, random. The same random phenomena is present when no attempt at all is made to tune the backscale. The backscale is a whole different animal from the frontscale. The frontscale is excited directly by the motion of the individual strings of a given unison. The backscale, on the other hand, is excited only by the movement of the whole bridge (at least through a broad, regional area). It would be pretty hard to design a backscale that is not going to be excited sympathetically by the broad spectrum of vibrations moving the bridge. Except in the case of some early Steinway backscale designs, the one big benefit to manufacturers attempting to tune the backscale is that they (usually) get it long enough.

As I’ve said before, I’m willing to be convinced on this, but so far the best efforts of those touting the system have been unconvincing. After spending huge amounts of time setting these things up the claimed performance advantages simply are not there.

(8) Yes, some companies are doing a better job than others when it comes to designing and building these systems. At least technically. (And I don’t relegate the designers of the worlds high-end pianos to the category of “self-appointed experts.” If that was the impression I gave, I apologize. I’ve apparently sat through more presentations of the pseudo-science sometimes used to explain these systems than you have.)

Alas, I do not have the financial backing to experiment on new pianos like the Fazioli, C. Bechstein or Bosendorfer. But, I do find it curious that folks intimately familiar with the current production M&H BB comment on the excellent sustain through the capo tastro bar sections of our remanufactured BB which has had the tuned aliquot system removed and a system incorporating a sharper string deflection angle and a shorter duplex string segment installed in its place.

And, yes, I confess, I do like to see things measured, tested and proven as opposed to simply claimed. I am aware that many pianists and (especially) many manufacturers and dealers swear by these systems. But 95 years ago many manufactures and wood technologists also swore that spruce got its special resonating qualities from the millions of tiny vibrating diaphragms in the cell walls of the wood fiber. Now we know better. Time goes on and the constant wondering and probing and study you seem to be almost contemptuous of continues to find answers and explanations to questions that have swirled around the piano for something over 300 years. Sacred cows also make good steak and barbeque.

Until I (or somebody—anybody!) can directly test one of these systems (using valid and repeatable cause and effect testing) and prove that some form of the system provides all of the claimed benefits while eliminating the known problems and disadvantages that accompany them, I tend to agree with BDB. I think much of the current popularity of the tuned aliquot system has more to do with marketing strategy than with proven substance.

Which does not mean that some builders are not doing a better job of implementing the system than others. Clearly, some manufacturers are putting a lot of effort into making the system work as well as it can be made to work. It just means that my own experience and research work over the years has led me to believe there are better ways to go.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909361 - 10/23/05 08:51 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Del,
You’ve made some interesting points, but reading through them I was a bit surprised. It seems that we agree over much of what you said although in the end we have different opinions. I’ll try to respond to the points you made so you can see the similarities and differences.

You wrote:

 Quote:
(1) So why do I hear factory sales reps and dealer salespeople touting the mis-named “duplex” scale in their new pianos? (All pianos have a duplex scale. The question is whether or not the duplex string segment is tuned.) Why do I see this feature cropping up more and more in sales literature? Function aside, this has become a sales feature used by many—even in pianos where it clearly doesn’t function as a true tuned aliquot system.

[/b]
1. The question IMO isn't if it is touted to industry pros that are supposed to know the differences and be able to appreciate them. The question is if it’s actually used on sales floors. As this thread readily demonstrates, confusion on the part of many, that are much more educated then the average piano buyer is rampant, and readers can answer for themselves the question of: How many times did we really hear at dealers the term duplex scale and how was it explained to us?
(for the record, when I say Duplex scale system I mean what most people mean...that it is tuned to resonate with the speaking part of the string. I wrote about it enough in previous posts of this thread).


 Quote:
(2) This is a meaningless test. Well, almost meaningless. It is a good way to test a duplex system to see whether or not it is really functioning as a tuned aliquot system. If the note goes dull and sustain drops off when your finger is placed on the duplex string segment, it is. If the tone and sustain rate do not change appreciably, it is not. And, of course, there are many levels in between all on and all off—sometimes even within a given piano.

The worst of all worlds is heard when a functioning tuned aliquot string segment is artificially muted. The system deliberately allows some amount of energy to bleed across the string termination to the tuned aliquot string segment. When this string segment is damped with some energy absorbing substance (whether it be some piece of felt or your finger) sustain time will decrease—you’re drawing energy from the string (starting with the higher partials) and damping it out much faster than it would be absorbed into the plate. And, for the same reason, the tone will go dull—the highest partials are damped most readily by a viscoelastic material. Yet this type of muting is often done to dampen out the extraneous and irritating string noises that frequently develop in these systems. Sometimes there are alternate solutions but more often than not, unless the technician is prepared to so some serious plate grinding, alternate solutions simply do not exist. At least not in the real world in which most pianos, piano owners and technicians exist.

[/b]
2.
I agree that it is a good way to test a duplex system to see whether or not it is really functioning as a tuned aliquot system. There is a difference between us here though about the semantics. You may be more accurate to call this segment " tuned aliquot system" while I refer to it as a duplex scale...but I think that we should keep things as simple as possible so we, and readers can actually understand what's being said.

I’ve seen duplex segments that have been muted with felts by some technicians, and it is enough to say that I don’t think that this is any solution if there is an issue. There are alternate ways to deal with the problem, and in some systems not just by grinding the plate.
In a properly designed system done by a manufacturer with improving the sound quality in mind there won’t be any substantial amount of “irritating string noise" anyway, at least not the kind that can’t be dealt with fairly easy.
I agree that with some designs this could be a problem but I make my remarks with the best systems in mind, the kind that I’m familiar with.

 Quote:
3. Sustain time is a performance parameter determined by many things. The only way to test whether or not the tuned aliquot system is adding to or detracting from the sustain time of a particular piano is to measure it one way, change the system on the same piano and measure it again (without making any other changes). This is something I have done several times on several different pianos. In every case the when tuned aliquot system was functioning the sustain time decreased. When the string deflection angles were increased and the duplex string segment length was decreased (with no other changes being made), sustain time increased.

Tuned aliquot systems cannot, by design and fimction, add to the piano’s sustain time. Energy is deliberately drawn from the speaking portion of the string and transferred to the tuned aliquot string segment. Some of this energy may make it back across the V-bar (or whatever) but some of it is transferred directly to the plate where it is readily absorbed and converted into heat. Gray iron is good at this—it has a very high damping factor. (Which is another feature touted by many that is, in reality, actually a detriment to the overall performance of the piano.) Energy lost to the plate is not available to the strings nor to the bridge.[/b]
3. There is no reason to argue about this as I assume that you’re talking here about the front duplexes. What you wrote isn't contradicting in any way to the point made by me and quoted by you.

I wrote:

Well, even if one would accept this, then when some instruments featuring front duplex scales are by no mean lacking of any sustain, it does make this argument somewhat theoretical and moot, doesn't it?[/b]

Nothing you said seem to be disputing that.
Are you suggesting that the pianos I mentioned before have a short sustain? I don't think so.

Could the sustain in theory be longer? Well, I answered this also before by writing:

Either the many high end companies, that designed instruments with duplexes and have great sustain found a way to design their duplexes properly, or that they have other ways to achieve great sustain and decided that at a certain point, they’d rather have the tonal advantages (as they see it) of the system then even MORE sustain.

[/b]

 Quote:
4) Control? Most so-called tuned aliquot systems are not adjustable. Yes, some are but it is the rare technician who has even a vague idea of what to do with them. And the even rarer piano owner who is willing to pay to have these things experimented with. Most of those that are adjustable are adjustable only in length, not in string deflection angle. At least not without replacing some parts or adding shims and/or spacers. Hardly the kind of thing the average tuner is going to do during the average tuning call.

While you discount (with some justification) the systems used by Steinway (and the various Steinway clones) as not being true tuned aliquot systems, these are still the systems most commonly used. They are not adjustable by any reasonable means and the field technician has very little control over them.

[/b]
4. Yes, control...I agree with you that most of these duplex systems are not truly tunable and offer very little control by the tech. I also agree in 100% that it is very rare that techs know what to do with these aliquots. I even mentioned before in this thread that if someone lets a tech touch these he'd better be very sure that the tech knows what to do with these duplexes.

However, please note that I carry some of the instruments that have a true tunable duplex scale (tunable aliquot system). These instruments allow for adjustments with much more control and by "experimenting" with these on my own time and dime, while prepping, many, many instruments, I believe that I can get good results by changing the length and size of the aliquots.
I don't look at things just from the angle of the average duplex system as it designed, and what results the average tech is capable of getting by working with it. I look at it from the angle of what can be achieved in a system that is tunable and properly designed by someone that knows how to work with it. If I were to summarize it in one word I'd use "control".

 Quote:
(5) I don’t go around measuring string deflection angles on every piano I come across either. But when I’m studying a system and trying to lay a good theoretical basis for how it works and what its parameters are it’s a good idea to do so. It’s certainly not something I’m going to apologize for doing. I’m of the opinion that knowledge and understanding are always good things. Even when they fly in the face of conventional wisdom.

[/b]
5. Again, I find myself in complete agreement with you...I also think that: "knowledge and understanding are always good things. Even when they fly in the face of conventional wisdom". However, I'm also of the opinion that real life results are also of great value, and if the instrument sounds great and excels in the department that theoretically it should not excel in...well, then with all the respect to the theory I think that it is moot and it could be that someone found a way to compensate for the theoretical disadvantages even if I wouldn’t understand how or agree with it.

 Quote:
(6) I am aware that some companies are (still) trying to come up with V-bar materials and configurations that do not allow the string to quickly wear grooves in them. This has been going on for something over 100 years. And, while I don’t claim to have seen them all, in over 40 years as a field technician, a piano rebuilder/remanufacturer, a piano builder and researcher I’ve seen and used quite a few. Steinway, some decades back, heat-hardened the surface of the V-bar. (I’ve done this myself on more than a few soft plates.) Yamaha tried inserting a steel rod in a groove cast in the bottom of the V-bar. (I’ve retrofitted this on a few old plates as well.) But in every case I know of so far manufacturers have had to back away from these techniques somewhat to keep from prematurely breaking strings. The harder the V-bar material the faster strings break. As well, the sharper the V-bar radius the faster strings break. Other methods I’ve tried include the use of separate V-bar castings made of various materials such as manganese bronze, aluminum bronze and silicon bronze (all of which are harder than gray iron) pinned to the bottom of the capo tastro bar. Chickering used inverted agraffes inserted into the bottom of the capo tastro bar and, not being one to pass on borrowing a good idea when I see one, I designed this system into the Walter 175 as well. It the prototype, at least, it works very nicely.

[/b]
6. I agree with this point too. I'm also aware that string breakage may be a bigger issue with steel reinforced and harder V bars. However, there are other ways to reinforce the V bar and as you mentioned, some companies have used or are using different methods to reinforce it.


 Quote:
(7) Yes, random. The same random phenomena is present when no attempt at all is made to tune the backscale. The backscale is a whole different animal from the frontscale. The frontscale is excited directly by the motion of the individual strings of a given unison. The backscale, on the other hand, is excited only by the movement of the whole bridge (at least through a broad, regional area). It would be pretty hard to design a backscale that is not going to be excited sympathetically by the broad spectrum of vibrations moving the bridge. Except in the case of some early Steinway backscale designs, the one big benefit to manufacturers attempting to tune the backscale is that they (usually) get it long enough.

[/b]
7. The back duplex is indeed very different then the front. It has to be longer and produce a relatively strong sound to be effective. It is much more similar to the 4th string system on a Bluther, and although not as pronounced or easy to control, in my opinion it is still effective if designed right. The additional string on the Bluthner is more effective because the string is long enough and the note is the same and not an octave higher. The fourth string is stimulated as a sympathetic resonance of the other three strings, and by tuning it a bit differently it can produce different vibes that can not only augment the treble, but also make the sound richer and more colorful. I'm sure that the effect can be measured on a Bluthner and the back duplex is aiming for the same target, although I agree that it is not as effective as the Bluthner's fourth aliquot string.
Bluthner by the way is also using a "sustain robbing" front tuned duplex design in addition to the fourth string, and they are also known for their remarkable sustain in the treble.
Again, I would agree that most of these back duplexes are not very useful, but I'm talking about those that are designed and built right.


(
 Quote:
8) Yes, some companies are doing a better job than others when it comes to designing and building these systems. At least technically. (And I don’t relegate the designers of the worlds high-end pianos to the category of “self-appointed experts.” If that was the impression I gave, I apologize. I’ve apparently sat through more presentations of the pseudo-science sometimes used to explain these systems than you have.)

[/b]
8. We agree about this too obviously.


Yet you added this:
 Quote:
And, yes, I confess, I do like to see things measured, tested and proven as opposed to simply claimed. I am aware that many pianists and (especially) many manufacturers and dealers swear by these systems. But 95 years ago many manufactures and wood technologists also swore that spruce got its special resonating qualities from the millions of tiny vibrating diaphragms in the cell walls of the wood fiber. Now we know better.

[/b]
This is an excellent example, thank you for bringing it. These wood technologists had a THEORY that now we know is wrong. They tried to explain why something is happening and now we know better.
This is exactly the reason that in spite of the respect that I have to the science and theory, and in spite of my efforts to learn all the time more about piano design, it is in the end the REALITY and the sound and the way that I, as a tech can manipulate the sound that forms my opinion the most. In other words, I’ll respect the theory but also the results.

For me, the proof is in the beautiful sound that many of these instruments produce in the treble and what I can do with it as a tech.
I measure it with my ears
I'd leave the scientists to figure out how to measure the effectiveness of the results.

Finally you wrote:
 Quote:
Which does not mean that some builders are not doing a better job of implementing the system than others. Clearly, some manufacturers are putting a lot of effort into making the system work as well as it can be made to work. It just means that my own experience and research work over the years has led me to believe there are better ways to go.[/b]
And indeed I respect your opinion and position on that matter, and was aware of it even before you wrote a word on this thread. I also didn’t think that I’d be able to change your mind, nor see a need to do so.
Yet, as I pointed out, your opinion and experience isn't only in contradiction to mine, but also in contradiction to the opinions of piano designers that built some of worlds finest instruments.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909362 - 10/23/05 10:29 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6180
Wow! This discussion seems to have blossomed very nicely. I am glad that we have now achieved a better understanding and consensus on what is meant by "duplex scale" -- at least with regards to having the lengths of the undamped non-speaking portions of the strings be proportionate with the lengths of the speaking portions as to vibrate sympathetically with the speaking portions.

Having read Del on many occasions and having visited Ori and "talked piano" in the past, I am not foreign to their positions on this matter. Nonetheless, this is the first time I see these two positions getting hashed out, compared-and-contrasted side-by-side. That, I find gratifying. Angeleno's "salt" metaphor is certainly new and interesting to me. ;\)

Through out this thread, we have seen the tunable-duplex, non-tunable-duplex, "mixture" scale, triplex-scale, aliquots, etc. of such brands as Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Mason and Hamlin, Fazioli, Blüthner, Estonia, C.Bechstein, Steinway, etc. dragged into the discussion... conspicuously absent are the "mixture [/b] (or whatever you call it) scales" of Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska[/b] which are specifically mentioned in the title of this thread!

Ori stated that most European makes have gone duplex -- but not Petrof! They leave the tenor & treble sections' back-scale undamped. Any one would like to comment on Petrof in this regard? (As an aside: Del mentioned various experiments with the capo V-bar... interesting to note that Petrof II employs a screwed-on removable V-bar rather than one cast with the plate.)

Samick's and Nordiska's treble sections' back-scales are also left undamped and employs pressure bars -- very similar to Bösendorfer's and Grotrian's; although the former two do mute the tenor sections' back-scales while the later two do not, if I remember that right. Any one tried to remove the muting felt from a Samick or Nordiska's tenor-section's back-scale to see if that would make them sound any more like either Bösie or Grotrian? Any one tried to mute the Bösie/Grotrian's tenor-section back-scale to see if that would make them sound more like Samick/Nordiska? Any one would like to comment on Samick and/or Nordiska's use of this design element?
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

Top
#909363 - 10/23/05 10:39 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
Ax, the new Petrof concert grand has a duplex scale, I believe front only. The tenor of the Bösendorfer is muted with felt in front of the hitch pins, the treble is the only part of the scale left to vibrate freely. Muting of the treble back scale in the Bosie does not change the tone, only muting the front duplex has any effect. Derick already posted about this since his 290 has a front duplex, and my 214 does not.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

Top
#909364 - 10/23/05 11:05 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6180
Thanks, curry. I haven't yet seen any Petrof I concert grand. My previous observations were made on models II, III, and IV.

As for the Bösie muting its tenor section's back-scale, thanks for pointing that out (Derick's earlier pictures didn't quite show that, so I missed it -- sorry \:o ). So now the 5'~6'+ Samicks and Nordiskas' back-scales are even more like Bösie's.

Any one's got more comment on Samick and Nordiska's unmuted pressure bar back-scale design?
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

Top
#909365 - 10/23/05 11:10 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
 Quote:
Through out this thread, we have seen the tunable-duplex, non-tunable-duplex, "mixture" scale, triplex-scale, aliquots, etc. of such brands as Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Mason and Hamlin, Fazioli, Blüthner, Estonia, C.Bechstein, Steinway, etc. dragged into the discussion... conspicuously absent are the "mixture (or whatever you call it) scales" of Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska which are specifically mentioned in the title of this thread!
[/b]
Ax,
I thought the reason for this was clear.
On the second line of my first post in this thread I wrote:

"None of the pianos mentioned by AX function as having duplexes..."
[/b]
Petrof (except the concert grand as Curry mentioned), Nordiska and Samick don't have duplex scales, or at least don't have what we call the tuned duplex scale. In a tuned duplex scale the strings are set to produce sympathetic tone with the speaking part of the string. These companies of course don't have also a tunable duplex scale, where the aliquots can be moved and tuned differently.

All the other companies mentioned above have duplexes either on all or some of their models (most I believe have front and back and some only front) with the exception of Grotrian. I'm not sure whether Grotrian use front duplex or not and there were no pictures posted on this thread for us to see.
They don’t have a back tuned duplex scale though.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909366 - 10/23/05 11:54 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
del, i, for one, really appreciate that you are posting here on this subject, and value your input.

would you please settle for us whether or not grotrian's current design is a duplex scale design? it seems to me by your definition of the term, it is. it clearly is not an aliquot design.

ori, i happen to agree with you that these pianos have beautiful sustain and tonal color. however, i don't care for the tone of your post to del. you come across as being nasty and as attacking his credibility as a designer. care to edit your post? [/b]
piqué, all pianos have duplex scales. Duplex means, “having two principle elements, or parts.” Or, “having two parts performing one function.” Whether you are considering the speaking portion coupled with the backscale portion of the string or the speaking portion coupled with the frontscale portion of the string, both are “duplexes.” The question is whether or not the duplex segment is tuned. If it is then it is more properly called an aliquot string segment. Aliquot meaning, “dividing into something exactly: used to describe a number or quantity that will divide another number or quantity without leaving a remainder.”

About the Grotrian—I’m not familiar with the current Grotrian design. The next time I find one (probably at the NAMM show in January) I’ll check. Or, if you have some pictures of their current production you can post, I can probably tell from those. If the pictures that started this topic are of current production then, no, this is not a tuned, or aliquot, backscale. Nor is the backscale stripped out, or muted, hence whatever sympathetic vibrating that goes on back there will be added to the overall sound mix produced by the piano. Probably to the same extent as it would if the most super-human efforts were made to tune it.

(About the tone of Ori’s post—It’s OK. At this point in my life I don’t have the time to spend being offended or insulted by much of anything. Nor do I have the time to spend trying to persuade others to my point of view. I try to share some of what I have learned and present the observations and conclusions I’ve reached over the years for the benefit of whoever wants to wade through the stuff I write. That comes under heading of “Give and it shall be given unto you….” Whether it is accepted or not is really not my responsibility. Much of what I’ve taught over the years has initially been received with a great deal of skepticism and with some resistance. Most of which has now dissipated as others have decided to walk the same path I’ve been down. Obviously, there are still a few skeptics out there and that’s probably a healthy thing for all of us. Whatever the reaction it still seems important to me to keep trying to pass some of this stuff on before I can’t. I’d like to end up leaving the business in better shape than it was in when I found it—a time when it was even more beset by mysticism and baseless traditions than it is today.)

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909367 - 10/23/05 11:59 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
ChickGrand Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3220
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ori:
... I'm not sure whether Grotrian use front duplex or not and there were no pictures posted on this thread for us to see... [/b]
Not as crisp or close as I'd like to see, but these pictures of recent Grotrians don't show a tuneable front duplex (no aliquots, only a bearing bar and agraffes; also note the felt under the string section between agraffe and bearing bar):






Nor does this picture of an older model:


Top
#909368 - 10/24/05 03:46 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Chica,
By these pictures it doesn't look like this is a duplex scale...or what is usually meant when someone is saying “duplex scale”, which is actually a tuned duplex scale...and should actually be called more accurately a tuned aliquot segment as Del pointed out.

But in any case, it doesn't look like what usually people refer to as a duplex scale design, in the spirit of the "duplex scale design" found on certain pianos plates, and definitely isn't a tunable duplex segment (or aliquot segment).

Del,
I'm glad that you didn't take offence to me disagreeing with you, as none was meant and none should be taken.
As I said before, I respect you and understand that you wish to present observations and conclusions you reached to over the years to others.
I have also met though some other piano designers that were happy to share their observations and conclusions with me, and that the results of their experience and knowledge, which was the pianos they designed, left me very impressed.
It just so happens that few of these designers, and obviously some other designers whom I didn't meet with, have an opinion about this matter that is different then yours.
Hence the pianos they design have this element commonly referred to as duplex scale (tuned and tunable aliquot system), and the pianos you design don't have it.

I'm sure these designers, that are also very knowledgeable as you are, also won't lose any sleep at night by knowing that there are skeptics that refuse to accept their observations and conclusions about everything.

I think that this diversity is what makes the instruments offered in the market so interesting and different from each other. If there was only one opinion by one designer that was right all the time, then many of the high end instruments (that are willing to pay for high quality construction of their pianos) would sound just the same.

I for one enjoy this diversity and wouldn't want all pianos to sound like Charles Walters.
I'm happy that in addition to this fine piano there are also Bluthner, Mason & Hamlin, Estonia, Steinway, C.bechstein, Fazioli, Bosendofer and many other makes that can be so different from each other and represent the philosophies of their designers.

I’d like to thank you for your comments though as they are highly appreciated.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909369 - 10/24/05 07:46 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1715
Loc: Massachusetts
 Quote:
Originally posted by Del:
[QUOTE] The harder the V-bar material the faster strings break.

Del [/b]
Del, I wonder if you'd care to elaborate on this point. Does this phenomenon exist simply because a softer material will almost always preferentially wear when in rubbing contact with a harder material? Is it possible that in wearing a groove in the pressure bar, the string effectively polishes the bar? Does the string, by wearing a groove, soften, or increase the radius of the contact area?

Also, I wonder if anyone has tried any of the sintered metals into which lubricants of various kinds can be imbedded.

Top
#909370 - 10/24/05 08:12 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
HammerHead Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 354
Loc: Metro Atlanta
Moderators: I wonder if it would be possible to have a button added that would automatically sort the content of threads like this into, say, four seperate columns, labeled:

1. Marketing Terms
2. Technical Equivalents (where there is one)
3. Facts Based on the Physical Sciences
4. Beliefs

This would be most useful, as I find generally find it impossible to reconcile the views and opinions of those who subscribe more to one column or the other, I'd just like to see the sorted text, and try to figure it out myself.
:-)
_________________________
HH
Completely and forever out of the music business (but still full of opinions)

Top
#909371 - 10/24/05 08:57 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10363
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Del, et. al.,

My Grotrian (whose pictures launched this discussion) is a 2005 model. The front duplex area is not seemingly designed to affect the tone. Unlike the back duplex which clearly sounds when plucked (and in a consistent pattern) the front duplex area is muted.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#909372 - 10/24/05 11:32 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
I guess my background in engineering and science is causing me to discount much of what is being said in this discussion.

There is absolutely no data being presented. Only opinion. This goes for everybody's posting so far.

Theorizing about something does not make it a fact. We know this from the Kansas State School Board.

The Grotrian has a huge angle between the capo bar and the tuning pin plate and the duplex there SINGS LOUDLY. Therefore the energy transmitted is not conducted along the string alone.

To claim that a duplex is "sized" to vibrate with the main note is garbage when it is plain to hear that ALL the duplexes are ringing even if you strike only one note.

To make statements about duplex loudness or sustain intervals without data is merely expressing an opinion. This does not represent a fact.

Numerous other unsupported claims are stated in this discussion and I think we need to examine them one by one.

I am at work and can't take the time (been away on the weekend). But I think we can come up with experiments to verify and validate or prove wrong statements that are being made here. But I do regard a lot of what is being said as opinion and nothing more.

Let's figure out a more intelligent way to pursue this knowledge-quest. Eh?

Ahem.
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

Top
#909373 - 10/24/05 11:52 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
g,
at this point i am thinking that there are two definitions of "duplex" being bandied about here. there is the literal definition, by which the grotrian scale is obviously a duplex.

and then there is the conventional meaning of the term as it is used in the piano industry, and from this it is less clear to me. it seems our piano industry friends are telling us that by the industry's standard definition of the term, the grotrian does not have a duplex scale design.

further comments, anyone? is my understanding correct:?
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909374 - 10/24/05 11:56 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Derick II Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 1426
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by Grotriman:

The Grotrian has a huge angle between the capo bar and the tuning pin plate and the duplex there SINGS LOUDLY. Therefore the energy transmitted is not conducted along the string alone.

[/b]
I thought this area in a Grotrian was muted with felt. If so, how can is "sing loudly"?

Derick
_________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."[/b] - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


Top
#909375 - 10/24/05 12:00 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Piano*Dad:
Del, et. al.,

My Grotrian (whose pictures launched this discussion) is a 2005 model. The front duplex area is not seemingly designed to affect the tone. Unlike the back duplex which clearly sounds when plucked (and in a consistent pattern) the front duplex area is muted. [/b]
Thanks. This piano does not have a tuned aliquot stringing scheme. (Therefore it must not have much sustain in the treble sections. Right?) The string deflection angle seems to be (it’s a bit hard to tell from the picture) relatively sharp and short. Through the top two sections there does not appear to be any muting felt. Nor should it ever be necessary.

The backscale will always have a clear sound when plucked and (in a system using a bearing rod such as that shown in the picture) will always have a consistent pattern to it. What any given string backscale segment that is plucked won’t have is a pitch directly related to the speaking length of the string. Except by accident. (Which, come to think of it, pretty much describes most of the so-called tuned duplex—i.e., aliquot—backscales as well.)

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909376 - 10/24/05 12:08 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
This piano does not have a tuned aliquot stringing scheme. (Therefore it must not have much sustain in the treble sections. Right?)
well, members of club grotrian, let's not all jump del at once. ;\) \:D

del, this piano has amazing sustain. sustain is one of it's most compelling and seductive characteristics.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909377 - 10/24/05 12:12 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
oh, i almost forgot to post part of the explanation the grotrian factory gave for NOT employing the duplex design.

they said the duplex design was created to lend more power to a low-tension design. the grotrian has thicker strings, i.e., it is a high-tension design, and so the duplex scale is inappropriate for it.

this is from the email they sent me:

 Quote:
The main difference between the duplex scale and our mixture scale is founded in the influence of the acoustic aim. Most of the instruments which use a duplex scale have a very fundamental and mellow sound. They need the scale for the brilliance and brightness of sound. Therefore they use exactly calculated parts of the singing length of the string to reflect high frequency part tones to the singing length. (Some manufacturers use it because it is a duplex scale which everybody knows as a “Steinway feature” and I’m not sure they know what they do ;-) By the way: The first thing that worked like a duplex scale was developed by Helmholtz in Hanover / Germany.

Our scale is different in construction. As we use thicker strings, a short scale and high tension our tone is more bright and clear. A duplex scale in Grotrian pianos would cause part tones with a different harmonic in frequency so that it would sound a little bit distuned. The mixture scale with various different lengths causes various small reflections which are not recognizable as single tones. So it adds more an indifferent “noise” to the sound of clarity in the treble area which has a more colourful character and fits perfect to our philosophy of sound.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909378 - 10/24/05 12:13 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Roy123:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Del:
[QUOTE] The harder the V-bar material the faster strings break.

Del [/b]
Del, I wonder if you'd care to elaborate on this point. Does this phenomenon exist simply because a softer material will almost always preferentially wear when in rubbing contact with a harder material? Is it possible that in wearing a groove in the pressure bar, the string effectively polishes the bar? Does the string, by wearing a groove, soften, or increase the radius of the contact area?

Also, I wonder if anyone has tried any of the sintered metals into which lubricants of various kinds can be imbedded. [/b]
I'm not enough of a metallurgist to adequately answer this. It is not appear, however, to be a matter of friction and “wear.”

It is primarily a problem through the upper sections where the hammer blow is relatively close to the string termination—usually a V-bar arrangement of some kind. When the material used for the string termination is as hard, or harder, than the material from which the string is made the string is actually damaged by the repeated blows of the hammer. I suspect the reason for this is that with gray iron—and, to a lesser extent, the various bronzes I mentioned—enough energy is absorbed into the capo tastro bar to take some of the work stress off of the string. But that is just my speculation. What I know for sure is that when the termination material is made hard and the radius is down below about 0.5 mm (assuming the same string diameters, tensions, deflection angles, etc.) treble strings start to break after about half the number of blows that it takes to start breaking their counterparts using a “standard” V-bar shape and material.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909379 - 10/24/05 12:23 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
 Quote:
This piano does not have a tuned aliquot stringing scheme. (Therefore it must not have much sustain in the treble sections. Right?)
well, members of club grotrian, let's not all jump del at once. ;\) \:D

del, this piano has amazing sustain. sustain is one of it's most compelling and seductive characteristics. [/b]
It was a joke, piqué, a joke. I know the Grotrian has good sustain.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909380 - 10/24/05 12:26 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i see i need to lighten up a bit here. i'll try. ;\)
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909381 - 10/24/05 12:33 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 3886
Loc: San Francisco
Axtremus said:
 Quote:
Any one tried to remove the muting felt from a Samick or Nordiska's tenor-section's back-scale to see if that would make them sound any more like either Bösie or Grotrian?
I play both a Grotrian and a Nordiska on a weekly basis (both new 7-footers). I can tell you that it would take more than removing some felt to make the Nordiska sound like a Grotrian. A whole LOT more! ;\)
_________________________
Grotrian 225
S&S Hamburg-C
M&H "A" at home

Top
#909382 - 10/24/05 12:33 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Grotriman:


Numerous other unsupported claims are stated in this discussion and I think we need to examine them one by one.

I am at work and can't take the time (been away on the weekend). But I think we can come up with experiments to verify and validate or prove wrong statements that are being made here. But I do regard a lot of what is being said as opinion and nothing more.

Let's figure out a more intelligent way to pursue this knowledge-quest. Eh?

Ahem. [/b]
It’s not all that difficult. The test setup I used when I was looking into this system was a simple monochord with a fixed V-bar and a movable bearing bar/tuning pin block. I could change both the string deflection angle and the duplex string length. I could also move the bridge (along with its rudimentary soundboard assembly) and hitchpin block to accommodate various string lengths, diameters and tensions and work with various backscale configurations.

Have fun....

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909383 - 10/24/05 12:40 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10363
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Hey Pique .... ever heard of deadpan humor? \:D ;\)

Alas, it usually soars a few feet over my head too!

Del, I do think the Grotrian has unusual sustain in addition to a particular hollow-sounding tone (in a beautiful way). This is, of course, just a personal impression. Has sustain ever been quantified across brands and holding other things equal?

David F
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#909384 - 10/24/05 01:05 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Hey Pique .... ever heard of deadpan humor? [Big Grin] ;\)
ummm.... that's humor without the use of graemlins, right? \:\)
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909385 - 10/24/05 02:00 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
Del - while you are perhaps the only one here who is equipped to run many of these experiments. You are not providing any data. I know that this is because you are going after what you are hearing.

But a test that is devoid of subjective interpretation includes a measurement technique that everybody can agree on and is independent of interpretation. Like a digitization of the decay envelope of the string with and without a tuned duplex on it so that we can measure the decay of the note. Or a measurement of the acoustic output of the front duplex of a Grotrian (with what I would call a pretty sharp bend up in the string) compared to another piano, using say an electromagnetic pickup similar to a guitar pickup.

These are the types of measurements people need to provide data from in order to make the sweeping generalizations they are making.

I know this has gotten off topic from "what does duplex mean" but I am just a little miffed by all the opinion people are passing off as fact.

So by the way - do you have any "hard" data? \:\)

Also I was fortunate enough to have several posts accumulate before I returned to read Del's comment about no treble sustain. It did get my heart racing though...
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

Top
#909386 - 10/24/05 07:35 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
hiracer Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/29/05
Posts: 293
Loc: Puget Sound, WA
I'm confused. (As usual.)

Are these duplex and duplex-like thingies activiated by vibrations bleeding from the same string, by vibrations via sound from other strings (different notes), by vibrations via sound from same string, or some combination(s) thereof?

Isn't the Bluthner fourth string activated by sound, presumably by fundamentals and perhaps to a lesser degree by partials?

I thought the Gotrian observation about string tension was interesting, as I'm under the impression that Estonia's string tension is a bit under average, and they have opted for the (allegedly) tunable flavor.

Gotrain is one of my all time favorite pianos, which goes to show that I like both extremes of this design "feature."
_________________________
John, and my two sons play an Estonia 190 and a Samick upright.

Top
#909387 - 10/24/05 09:24 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Grotriman:
Del - while you are perhaps the only one here who is equipped to run many of these experiments. You are not providing any data. I know that this is because you are going after what you are hearing.

....

These are the types of measurements people need to provide data from in order to make the sweeping generalizations they are making.

....

I know this has gotten off topic from "what does duplex mean" but I am just a little miffed by all the opinion people are passing off as fact.

So by the way - do you have any "hard" data? \:\)

[/b]
No, I’m not. I probably still do have at least some of the test data available somewhere. But I’m not going to go looking for it. I already spend way to much time at this—if I spend much more time at this and I’m going to have serious wife problems.

Besides, I do this stuff for a living. At least I try to. I’m willing to set up most any experimental process anyone wants, but I’m not independently wealthy and the nasty problem of earning a living keeps interfering. These setups take time, the tests themselves take time and the equipment needed to measure the results is expensive. Some I still have, some I would have to purchase and I don’t have any compelling reason to do that just now. It’s not necessary for the work I’m currently involved in. As for the time, I don’t remember how long I worked on this project while at Baldwin but by the time I designed the tests and the test setup, built it all, and then conducted that actual tests it was more like a few weeks than a few days of tedious and repetitious work. I’m not about ready to go through that again unless I’m going being well paid to do so. Even then the results would go to the client and it’s doubtful most clients would want to share that information publicly. Nor am I convinced that kind of data would be all that useful to even the most dedicated piano buyer. I’d like to bring a higher level of understanding to the folks running the gauntlet between themselves and the piano they would like to spend their lives with but for the most part I think those decisions should be made by spending some time with the pianos, listening to them and living with them. Just like I found all the technical details of the high-tech engine and suspension system in my car interesting, in the final analysis it’s how the car felt on the road that was most important.

The posts I write to this list are not intended to be full research reports. They are simply summaries of some of the stuff I have learned over the past 40 plus years of piano servicing, rebuilding, remanufacturing, building and researching and testing. Mostly I try to explain, in layman’s terms, how the piano works more in broad strokes than in great detail. Hopefully I can bring light to some of the mythology and misinformation that still swirls around the instrument. That’s all. I really don’t have time to go beyond that. Hopefully it is useful as such. If not, well, it’s the best I can do for now.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909388 - 10/24/05 10:58 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Grotriman,
My experiments are much more simple. I carry some of the lines that have tunable duplex scale segment. The aliquots in some of the lines that I'm very familiar with can be moved, tuned or replaced in small segments or individually and I have experimented with them many times before under real conditions. Meaning, a complete instrument that has been design to have a properly working duplex segment.

The only results I can measure are those that I hear, and that may not be good enough for you or others...yet I spend my time and work with those aliquots often enough to feel that I can change and improve certain things in the instruments sound.
I'd like to think that others recognize the advantages of what I do, otherwise I'd be wasting a lot of time...and the only way I know how to measure if the time wasted was worth it or not is by the end result.
The people playing the pianos I prep in our showroom often wouldn't care if there is a duplex or not, they just want the piano to sound beautiful.
Sometimes I wish I felt that working with these aliquots is unnecessary, as it would save me time, but I think that it's something worth working with.

In my first post I wrote about the tunable duplex segments:
 Quote:
Many, me included, like the duplex scale and believe it creates a fuller and more colorful treble with more projection.
Others like to criticize the system and may prefer an instrument without it.
[/b]
And in my next post I added:

 Quote:
Obviously this discussion is almost impossible to have in an Internet forum. One should have access to different pianos and be able to see and hear the results of the different designs and approaches.
I definitely know that I'm not articulate enough to convey ALL the possible combinations and differences maker take regarding this, or other technical aspects.

What I can say, is that for me, the true individually tunable duplex scale offers control.
While changing aliquots to different sizes and location in the front duplex scale, I can create an affect similar to make up...eliminate certain things that I may find objectionable or bring out certain things that I like.
The rear duplex is something that I like to think of more as clothing. The color can be changed and controlled by moving the Aliquots.

It is very clear to me that there are those that are not used to work with tunable duplexes and don't feel that they have any advantage. Some even feel that the duplex may cause unwanted harmonics and rings.
It is definitely my preference though to have tunable duplexes and I believe that some techs can make a good use of these.
Of course, the more experience one has with these systems the better they get in using their advantages. If one doesn't usually work with these, they may miss what I think as the advantage and feel quite the opposite, in much of the way that tech's that don't install Dampp- Chaser systems tend to criticize them.

The fact is though, that they have much less experience with tunable duplexes and although may be very knowledgeable techs their opinions are contradicted by the piano designers of modern times at Mason, Estonia, Fazioli and also now obviously C.Bechstein, Schimmel and Seiler.

[/b]
I believe that this is about as much as I can say at this point and think that these remarks, given in the beginning of the thread were as clear as possible saying that this isn’t a black and white issue, and that there are those that are skeptic about it's advantages.

Grotrian’s explanation to Pique makes sense to me, and this can show again that there are many variables regarding a piano design, and many contradicting philosophies by piano designers.
There is no one person in the industry that is right all the time no matter how knowledgable he is simply because much of what’s right is subjective.
So again I would suggest to people to judge things in this regard by the tonal results of the complete piano.
No piano will fall apart because it doesn’t have (or have) a duplex scale.

Should you want to know more, you're welcome to come here and visit me. Our showroom is only 45 minutes from NYC by car or train.
Until then, all I can do is post pictures of different instruments with different duplex scale systems for you and anyone else to better understand the issue.

Here are the pictures:
.


Mason & Hamlin front duplex. The aliquot segment can be moved in sections and by replacing these with higher bars or moving them back and forth the string angle and length can be adjusted:
.




.
.
.
.


Mason & Hamlin back duplex. The aliquots are tunable individually and the strings in the aliquot segment are relatively long:
.





.
.
.
.


Estonia front duplex. The aliquots are tunable individually, by replacing them with larger or smaller bars, and moving them back and forth the string angle and length can be adjusted for each note:
.




.
.
.
.


Estonia back duplex. The aliquots are tunable individually and the strings in the aliquot segment are again relatively long:
.



.
.
.
.


Bluthner front tunable duplex. The aliquot segment can again be moved in sections:
.



.
.
.
.


Bluthner fourth aliquot string. Can be tuned to sympathetically resonate to the other three. The fourth string is slightly elevated and is not struck by the hammer:
.





.
.
.
.


Steinway front duplex segment. This is tuned to the speaking part of the string but isn't tunable.
The aliquots are a part of the plate design and can't be moved:
.





.
.
.
.



Steinway back duplex segment. The aliquots are in long segments and can actually be moved very little.
The duplex segment of the strings is relatively short in comparison to the individually tunable segments on the Mason and Estonia.
.


_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909389 - 10/24/05 11:03 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
The pictures came up as a link...
Can anyone tell me how to get the pictures to come up without the link?
Ax maybe?
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909390 - 10/24/05 11:11 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
I think I got it done thanks to pique!
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909391 - 10/24/05 11:35 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
ori, i think what you did was bracket the photo locations with

what you want to bracket the info with is [img] [/img]

here let's see if i'm right:



Steinway back duplex segment. The aliquots are in long segments and can actually be moved very little.
The duplex segment of the strings is relatively short in comparison to the individually tunable segments on the Mason and Estonia.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909392 - 10/24/05 11:37 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
ChrisKeys Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1274
Loc: Dallas, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick II:
Ori,

Here's a pic of the front duplex on a 290.

Derick

[/b]
Well, that got me interested. So I looked on the front of my Baldwin L's strings and lo and behold, I see the same thing, though perhaps not going as low as in your picture. (My Baldwin was built about 1967; don't know what more modern Baldwins have.)

Chris

Top
#909393 - 10/24/05 11:37 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
yup. just bracket each link with the code [img] [/img] and you will be all set. \:\)
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909394 - 10/24/05 11:39 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
Mason & Hamlin back duplex. The aliquots are tunable individually and the strings in the aliquot segment are relatively long:

_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909395 - 10/24/05 11:39 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
ChrisKeys Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1274
Loc: Dallas, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by curry:
This is a true rear duplex scale as used by Steinway and others. Each rear duplex bridge precisely terminates all three strings of a note into a defined length. The system in Grotrian and others does not.
www.tinypic.com/et6reh.jpg [/b]
The back end of my Baldwin L's strings are terminated exactly the same way, all the way down to middle C.

Chris

Top
#909396 - 10/25/05 01:13 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
pique,
Thank you for your help with the pictures.
For the amount of time it took me to figure it out I could have driven down to the city, pick up Grotriman, bring him here, show him the actual pianos and then drive him back...
\:\)

Chris W,
Among the many pianos I have here there is also a 1980's Baldwin L. This one has different duplexes then what you describe. The front is fixed/un-tunable and a part of the plate.
The back is not a duplex scale at all and is nothing like the Steinway D picture that curry posted.
If you'd like then post pictures of your piano to verify that the models are different and that there isn't any misunderstanding here.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909397 - 10/25/05 01:44 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
The front pressure bars on early Baldwin grands are inverted V-shaped brass bars which are movable. The rear aliquots originally had pins in the bottom that fit in holes in the plate, but were later movable. Around 1967, the hitch pins were replaced by vertically mounted roll pins, with the strings held by friction at a height which would allow changing the downbearing on the bridge. This was the Acu-Just system. There were changes in the front bearing system as well, particularly in the SF 11 and SD 10 models, which have adjustable devices which I have never quite figured out.

Like all this other stuff, this was all of mostly dubious value overall, except for the cumulative effect of the Acu-Just pins, but other manufacturers control the downbearing with careful bridge and plate placement. I just don't feel any of it makes so much difference in the sound that if you had one piano with any or all of these things and another without, it would really shout out at you as being a different piano. Not as much as the changes that a good voicer could make, for instance.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909398 - 10/25/05 09:16 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Del:

[QUOTE]<...SNIP> But I’m not going to go looking for it. I already spend way to much time at this—if I spend much more time at this and I’m going to have serious wife problems.


Besides, I do this stuff for a living. At least I try to. I’m willing to set up most any experimental process anyone wants, but I’m not independently wealthy and the nasty problem of earning a living keeps interfering.

Del [/b]
Darn that earning a living thing! Understood. Those of us amateurs who bought grand pianos have already gotten through the wife thing. For better or for worse... \:\)

I hereby solemly promise that when I win the powerball in an amount in excess of 100 million dollars. I will set up a piano research play room for Del and others (who pass the application exam - I have to be careful here in case I really do win) to use. And will support their piano research.

In your research Del did you ever determine that a duplex segment sang only because of it's struck segment? Or did you determine they all sing to some extent when any nearby note is played?

Ori - great pix! Thank you for all the work. Very informative. (BTW - I would love to stop by your shop some time.)

Anyhow - duplex, duplex scale, tuneable duplex. Somebody's going to have to write a definitive piano dictionary here. I am still very much of the opinion that any freely vibrating string segment constitutes a duplex. And whether it is in the front or in the rear is a qualifier, and if it is tuneable is a qualifier as well. But I see this is one opinion.
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

Top
#909399 - 10/25/05 12:29 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i'm still confused.

when our esteemed piano professionals say that the grotrian does not have a duplex scale design, do they mean that the conventional meaning of the term must include aliquots and tuning ability?
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909400 - 10/25/05 12:42 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Grotriman:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Del:

[qb] [QUOTE]

In your research Del did you ever determine that a duplex segment sang only because of it's struck segment? Or did you determine they all sing to some extent when any nearby note is played?

Ori - great pix! Thank you for all the work. Very informative. (BTW - I would love to stop by your shop some time.)

Anyhow - duplex, duplex scale, tunable duplex. Somebody's going to have to write a definitive piano dictionary here. I am still very much of the opinion that any freely vibrating string segment constitutes a duplex. And whether it is in the front or in the rear is a qualifier, and if it is tunable is a qualifier as well. But I see this is one opinion. [/b]
The duplex string segment sings anytime its natural fundamental vibrating mode ends up close to the fundamental, or some partial of that fundamental, and the string deflection angle is small enough to constitute an inefficient termination to the speaking length.

To repeat—energy transfer across the string termination is a function of the shape of the termination point (i.e., usually the V-bar), the string deflection angle, and the length of the duplex string segment.

With one or two notable exceptions, upright pianos rarely, if ever, have string noise problems through the tenor and treble sections even though their string deflection angles across the V-bar are often quite low. And despite the fact that vertical piano V-bars are often very poorly shaped. The reason they do not is because there is a pressure bar very close to that V-bar. The duplex string segment between the V-bar and the pressure bar is very short. Hence the string termination is very efficient despite the shallow string deflection angles typically found here.

Rear duplex string segments do ring in sympathy with vibrating strings some unisons away—they are driven by the vibrating bridge, not by energy bleeding across the bridge (and through the bridge pin offsets). The front duplex string segments are driven by energy bleeding across the V-bar. Hence they are unison specific.

And, while I’m thinking about it—if anyone is interested in doing some experimenting along these lines you must use appropriate materials. In my first round of tests I was not getting nearly the anticipated energy losses that typically accompany this design. Then I realized I was using steel sections for my V-bar/capo tastro bar and tuning pin panel (with the accompanying bearing bar rest). I then changed the test setup using appropriate sections from a broken plate. Once gray iron entered the picture the energy losses appeared. It was only with some combination of a larger string deflection angle and/or a shorter duplex string segment that the energy losses diminished.

Yes, we do need some consistency in terminology when discussing these things. Without it it is all too easy for the salesperson to point generally to the area where all the fancy little bars are located and point out the “duplex scale” to the unwary customer adding nothing of value to the customer’s usable store of information but adding considerably to his or her level of confusion. Of course the salesperson would then have to actually know something about what he or she was talking about and I’ve only met a few who were willing to spend the time to really learn much about the product they were selling.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909401 - 10/25/05 12:43 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
All three strings of the backscale length must be terminated at the same length(via duplex bridge,or aliquot), and tuned to the same pitch, same with the front, to be a tuned duplex scale. As mentioned previously, the Grotrian/Bösendorfer backscales are not. Each string has a different pitch. This would not be a tuned duplex scale.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

Top
#909402 - 10/25/05 12:45 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
i'm still confused.

when our esteemed piano professionals say that the grotrian does not have a duplex scale design, do they mean that the conventional meaning of the term must include aliquots and tuning ability? [/b]
Pique,
What I mean by it at least, is that unless the duplex scale segment is tuned to be sympathetic to the speaking part of the string (higher pitch note or a fifth), and unless all three strings of the note are tuned this way...then it isn't what is usually referred to as a duplex scale (although should more accurately be referred to as tuned duplex scale).
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909403 - 10/25/05 12:49 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
Took the words right out of my mouth Ori.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

Top
#909404 - 10/25/05 12:54 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
 Quote:
Originally posted by curry:
Took the words right out of my mouth Ori. [/b]
You're faster on the draw! \:D
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909405 - 10/25/05 02:48 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
So it seems the discussion is winding down. We are still a bit confused about the proper use of the term duplex, but there is a truce if we use "tuned duplex" and refer to any vibrating string as a duplex segment.

Here is a theoretical brain teaser. What accuracy in placement would be needed for the front aliquot bar on a medium length string (lower treble for instance approximately 24" let's say) in order to tune it to the fundamental?

The string having a length of 24" would have a certain tension. This same tension would exist in the front duplex portion. The front duplex being approximately 4" in length would then need an lenght accuracy of _______ to be a harmonic of the fundamental? If one bar is terminating a group of strings, it must be angled to obtain the proper tuning of all of them for each of their respective speaking length strings. Right? I am still skeptical that there is much to the "tuned" argument, unless you call being "in the general vicinity" tuned.
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

Top
#909406 - 10/25/05 03:06 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
You should reread my post about the futility of trying to tune these sections. Then realize that 24" is a very long string, somewhere around middle C, in most pianos. Then consider that you need to double the accuracy for each octave you go up the scale.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909407 - 10/25/05 03:32 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
i'm still confused.

when our esteemed piano professionals say that the grotrian does not have a duplex scale design, do they mean that the conventional meaning of the term must include aliquots and tuning ability? [/b]
It does have duplex string segments. As I say, all pianos do. Even the lowly upright.

The duplex string segment in the Grotrian is not tuned and, from what I can see in the photographs, the string segments between the V-bar and bearing bar are relatively short. Meaning the system is set up to provide an efficient string termination. Hence, little energy will be lost across the V-bar, leaving more in the speaking portion to be used to produce sound energy.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909408 - 10/25/05 03:57 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Grotriman:

Here is a theoretical brain teaser. What accuracy in placement would be needed for the front aliquot bar on a medium length string (lower treble for instance approximately 24" let's say) in order to tune it to the fundamental?

The string having a length of 24" would have a certain tension. This same tension would exist in the front duplex portion. The front duplex being approximately 4" in length would then need an length accuracy of _______ to be a harmonic of the fundamental? If one bar is terminating a group of strings, it must be angled to obtain the proper tuning of all of them for each of their respective speaking length strings. Right? I am still skeptical that there is much to the "tuned" argument, unless you call being "in the general vicinity" tuned. [/b]
To be tuned to the fundamental the duplex string segment would also have to be 24" long. But, they are not tuned to the fundamental (except sometimes in the very high treble). They are supposedly tuned to some partial of the fundamental.

And therein lies one of the problems with the system. Accuracy aside, the only way to set these things up so that they are properly tuned and keep them there is to somehow negate friction across both the V-bar and the bearing bar. Unless this can be done—and in the real world it is impossible—they will end up out of tune no matter how precisely the length is set. And it is when they end up slightly out of tune that the dissonant string howls set in that some poor tuner then has to figure out how to deal with.

This is a point BDB brought up some time back and it’s a very real, very common and very practical point that shouldn’t get lost in all the theoretical talk that is being tossed about. Assuming the tuner is able to get them in tune well enough to get rid of the howls, how long will they stay in tune and how long will the howls stay gone? Who knows? Unless the string tensions are exactly equalized through every segment of the string—and they rarely are—it will only be until some hard hammer blow upsets things enough for the string to render slightly across the V-bar. After enough of this the tuner ends up being asked to mute the bloody things out—the additional loss of sustain being less bad than putting up with the dissonant string howls.

And now we’re back to why I don’t like the system.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909409 - 10/25/05 04:27 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
veeeery interesting! thanks for the info.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909410 - 10/25/05 05:58 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909411 - 10/25/05 06:00 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909412 - 10/25/05 06:01 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
[qb]


Steinway back duplex segment. The aliquots are in long segments and can actually be moved very little.

The duplex segment of the strings is relatively short in comparison to the individually tunable segments on the Mason and Estonia. [/b]
Yes, they are. And that is one of the difficulties with this particular design. The backscale is short enough to impede, or restrict, the motion of the soundboard assembly. Particularly in the top section.

Simply removing the bearing bar casting and either replacing it with a brass half-round of appropriate diameter placed as close to the hitchpins as possible or (even better) leaving the half-round out and installing vertical hitches close to the original hitchpin locations (keeping string bearing approximately the same as teh original) noticeably improves the upper tenor/treble response.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909413 - 10/25/05 06:18 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
An interesting note is that the Grotrian also has a segment between the tuning pin and the plate that rings very loudly. So much so that before I had my hammers voiced, I needed to mute 3 or four strings segments.

After voicing the piano sounds much better with them vibrating. They are a third duplex segment in the chain.

I myself am in total agreement with Del. A tuned duplex is perhaps an ideal, but not realizable condition.

There is a rather famous technician in NYC (she is psychic about pianos) who insists (I hear) on removing most damping materials period to get the best sound out of a Steinway.
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

Top
#909414 - 10/25/05 09:17 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
 Quote:
Simply removing the bearing bar casting and either replacing it with a brass half-round of appropriate diameter placed as close to the hitchpins as possible or (even better) leaving the half-round out and installing vertical hitches close to the original hitchpin locations (keeping string bearing approximately the same as teh original) noticeably improves the upper tenor/treble response.
Actually, if this is what you want to do, the easiest solution may be simply to move the casting back as far as possible, since it is easier to keep one of those castings in place near the hitchpins than a bunch of individual half-rounds. (Tensioning strings on these aliquots tends to move them forward from the hitchpins.)
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909415 - 10/25/05 10:50 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
 Quote:
Simply removing the bearing bar casting and either replacing it with a brass half-round of appropriate diameter placed as close to the hitchpins as possible or (even better) leaving the half-round out and installing vertical hitches close to the original hitchpin locations (keeping string bearing approximately the same as the original) noticeably improves the upper tenor/treble response.
Actually, if this is what you want to do, the easiest solution may be simply to move the casting back as far as possible, since it is easier to keep one of those castings in place near the hitchpins than a bunch of individual half-rounds. (Tensioning strings on these aliquots tends to move them forward from the hitchpins.) [/b]
Yes, we do that too. But there is a limit as to how far it can be moved. Some of those backscales are pretty short. In any case, we don’t use individual half-rounds. We use a continuous strip. Or several of them—whichever is appropriate to the specific piano at hand.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909416 - 10/26/05 12:50 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
In a PROPERLY DESIGNED tunable duplex system, such as those that I work with every day, there are no howls and the aliquots are not moving anywhere at least not in any meaningful way.
They may need to move and howl in theory, but in the real world they don’t.
I also never found the need to mute anything in these duplexes due to a howl.
By changing the aliquots size and position I can increase or decrease the amount of ring or “sizzle” to where I like it to be…and this is why I like the system.

I guess that most designers of high-end instruments have either different theories then some of the theories we heard on this thread, or different solutions then anyone writing on this thread found. After all, they decided to incorporate this system into their pianos, and these pianos sound by most accounts very good.
Suggesting that some of the worlds premier designers have done this, knowing that it is not only inefficient but can actually be detracting from the performance of the instrument, just that it can be used as a “sales feature" is ridiculous. I wouldn't except from anyone in the industry to sell his or her knowledgeable piers so short.

The results in high-end pianos using tuned and tunable duplex scale segments speak for themselves and readers that were lucky enough to play on these instruments rarely refer to them as “howling” while reporting back.

I believe that a system that isn’t properly designed and executed can be less effective, and may even hinder the performance of the piano as suggested. I guess that for this reason tunable duplex segments are usually not found on lower end pianos, but only on some of the higher end instruments.
In any case, the use of a PROPERLY designed and executed system among high end manufacturers seem to only grow.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909417 - 10/26/05 01:00 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
ChrisKeys Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 1274
Loc: Dallas, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ori:
Chris W,
Among the many pianos I have here there is also a 1980's Baldwin L. This one has different duplexes then what you describe. The front is fixed/un-tunable and a part of the plate.
The back is not a duplex scale at all and is nothing like the Steinway D picture that curry posted.
If you'd like then post pictures of your piano to verify that the models are different and that there isn't any misunderstanding here. [/b]
If I ever get enough time, I'll try to pictures. But if memory serves me correctly, my older L is indeed different from the newer L's w.r.t. string termination, at least in the back. I'll try to post something soon...

Chris

Top
#909418 - 10/26/05 12:01 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
 Quote:
I guess that most designers of high-end instruments have either different theories then some of the theories we heard on this thread, or different solutions then anyone writing on this thread found. After all, they decided to incorporate this system into their pianos, and these pianos sound by most accounts very good.
Most pianos these days sound very good. It's harder to find a bad new piano than a good one. They may sound different, and one person may prefer one over another. which is a good thing. But the difference between the average piano and the extremes has probably never been so small before. In order to say "My piano is so much better than those other pianos that you should ignore your ear, your touch, and your pocketbook and buy my piano!" one needs to force a prospect to concentrate on smaller and more meaningless details, like whether there are duplex scales or not, whether a piano's wood is seasoned one way or another, whether it is made in China, Europe, the USA, or Timbuktu, or whatever. It's nothing but hype!

Frankly, I don't believe any dealer would sell an old Steinway or new Baldwin without tuned duplexes for less money than one the same model a year apart that had them. If you lined up a dozen pairs of these models you could get anyone, no matter how sophisticated they may be in piano tone, to tell which was which without looking. That's why I think that it's nothing but advertising.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909419 - 10/26/05 12:05 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Grotriman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/07/04
Posts: 724
Loc: New York City
Ori - I'm heading up I-95 from NYC and hit Stamford. Then what do I do to get to your showroom?
_________________________
Regards,

Grotriman

Top
#909420 - 10/26/05 01:20 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 3886
Loc: San Francisco
Grotriman, you said
 Quote:
There is a rather famous technician in NYC (she is psychic about pianos)
Now your'e talking! Never mind all of this measurement stuff.

If I mail her a picture of my piano, could she tune my duplexes? :p
_________________________
Grotrian 225
S&S Hamburg-C
M&H "A" at home

Top
#909421 - 10/26/05 02:20 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ori:
In a PROPERLY DESIGNED tunable duplex system, such as those that I work with every day, there are no howls and the aliquots are not moving anywhere at least not in any meaningful way.
They may need to move and howl in theory, but in the real world they don’t.
I also never found the need to mute anything in these duplexes due to a howl.
By changing the aliquots size and position I can increase or decrease the amount of ring or “sizzle” to where I like it to be…and this is why I like the system.

I guess that most designers of high-end instruments have either different theories then some of the theories we heard on this thread, or different solutions then anyone writing on this thread found. After all, they decided to incorporate this system into their pianos, and these pianos sound by most accounts very good.
Suggesting that some of the worlds premier designers have done this, knowing that it is not only inefficient but can actually be detracting from the performance of the instrument, just that it can be used as a “sales feature" is ridiculous. I wouldn't except from anyone in the industry to sell his or her knowledgeable piers so short.

The results in high-end pianos using tuned and tunable duplex scale segments speak for themselves and readers that were lucky enough to play on these instruments rarely refer to them as “howling” while reporting back.

I believe that a system that isn’t properly designed and executed can be less effective, and may even hinder the performance of the piano as suggested. I guess that for this reason tunable duplex segments are usually not found on lower end pianos, but only on some of the higher end instruments.
In any case, the use of a PROPERLY designed and executed system among high end manufacturers seem to only grow. [/b]
But, Ori, in the real world miss-tuned aliquot string segments do howl. And buzz. And jangle. And whatever. That is not just my experience, it is the experience of hundreds, if not thousands of technicians across the land. It has been a problem for generations of piano owners and technicians alike.

And the problem is not that the aliquot bars are moving, the problem is that when pianos are tuned the strings do not render perfectly across the various bearing points. The result is simply that no matter how carefully you set them in the factory (or in your shop) the tensions—and, hence, the pitch—of the tuned aliquot string segments is no longer going to be at the pitch you so carefully set.

You do go on about the designers of these high-end pianos you work on. I guess I have less faith in their design process than you do. You seem to believe that there is a lot of comparative research and development going on. I, on the other hand, do not. You see, I’ve been in some of these factories as well. And, while I do believe there is a lot of good engineering and refinement taking place I do not believe there is much in the way of fundamental R&D happening.

As just one example, one of the high-end pianos mentioned in this topic—and which I will not further identify—has its origins back in a defunct German piano factory. True, under its current ownership and name it has been refined and engineered well beyond any level its original makers dreamed of but it is still essentially the same instrument it started out to be. Yes, the aliquot string segments have been made adjustable but not tests have been conducted to discover whether or not there may be a better way. This is the way high-end piano makers do these things and that is that. End of discussion.

And, I guess, unlike you, I have indeed heard some of these aliquot string segments the whistle and howl in any number of so-called high-end pianos. Both in showrooms and at industry trade shows. The only exceptions are those systems that are designed to look like tuned aliquot systems but which, do to the sharper string angles involved and the relatively short duplex string segments, do not function as such. That is, despite their appearance the string termination is efficient enough to prevent much of any energy bleed across the termination point. Otherwise these problems are inherent in the system whether we want to acknowledge them or not. I agree that with careful adjustment and tweaking they can be temporarily eliminated. But experience proves that these problems all to often come back. And if the technician is either not experienced enough to deal with them, or if the piano owner is unwilling to pay for the time involved, the problems I have described do appear in even the most beautifully and “properly” designed system.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909422 - 10/26/05 04:18 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
 Quote:
Originally posted by Grotriman:
Ori - I'm heading up I-95 from NYC and hit Stamford. Then what do I do to get to your showroom? [/b]
Grotriman,
Best thing is to call for directions on the phone.
It will be faster for you to take the Hutchinson/Merritt Parkway than the 95 as we are very close to Bedford and Armonk, NY.
Best thing is to call for directions on the phone, this way I can also make sure that I'll be here when you want to come.

Del,
You made some points that I'd like relate to, but don't have much time now.
I'll post later though...
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909423 - 10/27/05 02:37 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Posted by Del:

 Quote:
But, Ori, in the real world miss-tuned aliquot string segments do howl. And buzz. And jangle. And whatever. That is not just my experience, it is the experience of hundreds, if not thousands of technicians across the land. It has been a problem for generations of piano owners and technicians alike.[/b]
And also:

 Quote:
I have indeed heard some of these aliquot string segments the whistle and howl in any number of so-called high-end pianos. Both in showrooms and at industry trade shows
[/b]
Del,
Obviously my experience is different then yours.
Now you say that it is the experience of hundreds and not just yours... Well, you may think for some reason that you can speak for hundreds but you really shouldn't, please just speak for yourself.

"Howl, buzz, whistle and jangle" you say... interesting.
"A problem for generations of owners" you say...ok then, lets make our own unscientific test with our forum members.

Deric, Which would be the term you'd use to describe the treble of your Bosendorfer Imperial concert grand? You know...the one with the tuned duplex scale segment? Would you say that it's howling and buzzing as Del suggests?
You must consider your piano a real problem don't you? With all this sustain robbing duplex, the whistles and howls that it must have.
Indeed Deric, you are a selfish person. By purchasing this problematic instrument you created a problem not just for you, but also for the generations to come.

Now what about all of you that own Mason & Hamlin pianos? Those buzzing and howling instruments (due to their tunable duplexes) must really frustrate you and must be a big problem. To all readers that played Mason & Hamlin pianos during your piano search...now you know why they were all whistling so bad.

What about the new C.bechstein pianos? Anyone tried these? Surly the first thought that came to anyone’s mind playing them was.."oh my, these horrific sounds, this piano is howling so bad it will likely be a huge problem as these duplexes will keep on jangling.

And what about Fazioli? This shameless Italian piano dared using those tunable duplex segments and now it's howling and buzzing all over. What was the designer thinking??? He should have checked the writings here for advice before presenting the world with this whistling problem.

Now does anyone here on this forum ever heard of the Estonia piano? The designers of this piano must have also been stupid, inexperienced and negligent enough to use tunable duplexes. What a shame, it probably could have been a nice piano had they just followed the advice they can read on this forum.
Time after time I see people play the Estonia and whistle along with the howls...

Schimmel and Seiler? They just redesigned their instruments to include these nasty sustain robbing features. They must be sitting now, grabbing their heads by their hands wondering...why did we do it? Consumers must sitting in front of our pianos and all they hear is a loud howl, mixed with some buzzes and the aliquots will be jangling for the next generations to suffer.

But the prize has to go to Bluthner. After more then 150 years of piano making in this family they still didn't figure out that they need to consult with Del before getting these front duplexes to howl as they probably do?
Some must have confused the Bluthner's sound with the whistles of a train engine.

What a shame.

Well, to all the readers that ever played any, few or all of these instruments, if the first thing that came to your mind was..." SSHHHOOOOO, this piano has a nasty howl" then now you know why it is so.

If your thoughts were different though, at least while playing some of these pianos, then maybe you'll figure out that one should talk for himself and not for thousands of others

By the way, in the real world I often find buzzing and ringing A graffs, should we eliminate all these too?

Del wrote also:
 Quote:
The result is simply that no matter how carefully you set them in the factory (or in your shop) the tensions—and, hence, the pitch—of the tuned aliquot string segments is no longer going to be at the pitch you so carefully set.
[/b]
Not on the pianos I work with and not by my experience. Maybe you should get out of the shop more and work regularly on some of the modern instruments I mentioned before. Do it for few years and then come back and offer an opinion to whether the aliquots “jangle” or not. I did just that and my opinion, which is based on real life experience, is completely the opposite of yours.


Then you wrote:
 Quote:
You do go on about the designers of these high-end pianos you work on. I guess I have less faith in their design process than you do. You seem to believe that there is a lot of comparative research and development going on. I, on the other hand, do not. You see, I’ve been in some of these factories as well. And, while I do believe there is a lot of good engineering and refinement taking place I do not believe there is much in the way of fundamental R&D happening.

[/b]
The reason I bring these high-end pianos and their designers, is because they hold an opinion very different then yours.
I also know of quite a bit of research and development that's going on.
Experimenting with different materials and design elements, as well as using (god forbid) computer programs to enhance performance.
Not all companies, as you might know, are eager to share the solutions they found for certain problems with the rest of the industry. Some of them will expect other companies to come up with their own solutions.

I can only guess that part of the problem is that you refuse to believe that others have found solutions to problems that you thought can't be solved.

Please understand that I fully respect you and your knowledge as a designer, yet I'm not a designer but a finisher. I look at things from the other side of the process.
I look at the result of the finished piano and what I can do with it as a tech and a pianist.
Also, by being both a dealer and a tech ( and probably also because I ask too many questions) some of the companies I work with have confided in me and shared some of their solutions and processes. I can tell you that in spite of your knowledge, I found on more then just this occasion that you are limited by your own experience and conclude that the way you know is the ONLY way.

You have made remarks in the past about other subjects that although may be "universally" true, were completely wrong when used in context to the piano discussed as it was implementing an entirely different process which obviously you had no idea about.

You may not except that there are other ways of doing things then yours, but I believe that there are.
If you were absolutely right all the time and there were no other ways, then everyone would prefer the pianos designed by you and recognize their superiority to any other instrument.
But since many seem to prefer pianos other then the CW of your design, you should at least consider the possibility that this isn't a black and white issue and that other knowledgeable designers truly feel differently then you.

When people listen to the finish product, all the theoretical explanations fly out the window anyway as it is the performance that counts in this regard.

So when Mason & Hamlin, Fazioli or Bluthner will ask you to design their next instrument, I'm sure you'll design it without duplexes.
Until this happens though, please respect the designers of these pianos and the possibility that they have different opinions then yours.
I won't underestimate the knowledge of these designers even if they don't post in detail on this forum regarding the way they solved the (unsolvable by you?) theoretical problems you presented.

By all accounts they're making pretty good pianos.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909424 - 10/27/05 11:13 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
fwiw, lots of techs have told me the same things that del has written here. and i think del is in a very good position to know what hundreds of other techs think, as he is regularly giving presentations to conventions of piano techs around the world. he's also been involved in surveying hundreds of other techs on their opinions, as i recall.

ori, before you go casting stones, what is your pedigree as a technician? where did you study? are you a member of the ptg? do you go to their conventions and take their professional courses and mingle with lots of other technicians on a regular basis as del does? how long have you been a piano technician?

talk to any tech who services these high end pianos on an ongoing basis for conservatories, recording studios, and concert halls (but who doesn't sell them for a living) and i bet you'll hear pretty much what del has described. plenty can and does go haywire with high end pianos if they aren't maintained by high end techs.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909425 - 10/27/05 12:13 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Pique,
Here again you try to come to Del's defense when he doesn't really need you.
I'm casting stones at no one, but only stating my opinion as he states his. Whatever my skills and experience as a tech are, rest assure that they are far greater then yours...yet your qualification has got nothing to do with your right to post what ever you've "heard" from techs. So post it and stay focused on the subject instead of trying to get personal.
The first line of your post was
I have worked on THOUSANDS of high end pianos, the vast majority of them have tuned duplex system of one sort or another and formed my opinions based on this experience, as well as many conversations with some of the most knowledgeable technicians and designers in the industry.

We have plenty of piano owners here that have, or that tried pianos with these systems, and since it was claimed that duplex scale segments are a "problem for generations" I invited them to post their impressions of their pianos.

By the way, I too have seen duplexes that can ring for certain reasons. I have seen rings and buzzes from many other parts of pianos too. My approach is usually to find the source of the problem and correct it rather then say that the whole thing is bad...and it works very well.
I also don't see duplex segments on high-end pianos needing adjustments needing adjustment all the time and I work mainly on high end pianos.


This is the second time Pique you tried to turn this informative thread, where different approaches are presented, to some kind of a flame war and for no reason.

I appreciate Del's posts and contribution to this forum tremendously and respect him as a designer. I also respect other designer’s ability and the results of their work, and don't have to agree automatically with one person or another.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909426 - 10/27/05 12:22 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
Well, it hardly matters whether different designers have different opinions on duplex systems. Fazioli and Mason & Hamlin have different opinions from Blüthner! After all, they still only have at most three strings per note. Given that disparity, there's no way they could all agree with yet another designer on the subject!

But as a practical question, Ori, can you tell me what the difference in sound is between the old Blüthner aliquot system with the bridge agraffes and half-length strings and the new system? Has the amount of sustain changed? How much? Are they richer in harmonics? If so, which ones? Or could you tell us the same differences between the sound of the new Imperial and the old one, or the Schimmel, or the Seiler?

Could you pass my test? If you went into another store, and came across two of the old kind and two of the new kind, could you, without looking, tell which was which just from the sound? Because the question is not whether having duplexes changes the sustain or harmonics. The question is whether the changes in the sound are significant. Because if they are not, they are just there for the hype.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909427 - 10/27/05 12:35 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Piano*Dad Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/12/05
Posts: 10363
Loc: Williamsburg, VA
Ori,

All I have to say is that I'm glad you're not a physician. Your bedside manner could use some ....ah ... help. \:D

I don't know why you feel the need to use condescending sarcasm as a technique of argument. You and Del obviously disagree. Fine. You may think Del's statements do not represent as large a chunk of the profession as he thinks. Fine. State it that way and get on with life. I don't think the anecdotes about so-and-so and his new Bosendorfer actually support your position. In my reading of the thread, no one is claiming that pianos with tunable duplexes or aliquot stringing are pieces of junk. Is it possible that they may have a higher propensity toward problems that require extensive maintainance as they age? That is a testable proposition.
_________________________
Grotrian 192 #156455

https://www.youtube.com/user/dhfeld/videos

Top
#909428 - 10/27/05 12:48 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
ChickGrand Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3220
Loc: Midwest U.S.
I'll confess to being more curious than the average cat. Early yesterday morning I went and moved around some of my front and rear aliquots. What I found is that I could hear no difference, regardless of their position. Which led me to thinking that they may just very well serve as effective termination methods, as much as anything. Certainly the front duplex aliquots increase the angle of the string as it goes down toward the v-bar, probably providing a more effective termination than I would have without it. So I'm thinking that Del may be quite right about that point of them serving as termination devices in reality versus vocal string lengths in theory. I have in the past muted *all* of the duplexes, both front and rear, separately and together. Now when I did that, I *could* hear a difference, though it was not dramatic. Those earlier experiments, coupled with those yesterday leave me thinking that the duplex segments don't so much benefit an individual note, but I do think they add a fine (faint) layer to the *overall* tonal nature of the piano (that I personally do prefer). I haven't had any "howlers", but I did have one rear duplex aliquot that I moved about a year ago because I found that one particular unison difficult to get really tight up until I finally moved the aliquot. Since then, no issues at all with such things. So count me as having one foot in each camp. With the tuneable duplexes unmuted, there's a slight crispness to the sound of the piano. Not so much audible on the individual notes that have the duplexes, but certainly audible when the piano "blooms" with a big scalar run and open dampers or with large chords. There I do hear a difference. "Sizzle" was the word I found most appropriate for what I heard in those earlier muting experiments. It's a bit more "live" sound, giving "presence". But I've concluded its contribution is quite minor compared to any differences that can be made by tuning, regulation, voicing, hammers and the like. But both my front and rear duplexes remain unmuted. Even that little difference is appreciated by these ears.

Top
#909429 - 10/27/05 01:29 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
Well, it hardly matters whether different designers have different opinions on duplex systems. Fazioli and Mason & Hamlin have different opinions from Blüthner! After all, they still only have at most three strings per note. Given that disparity, there's no way they could all agree with yet another designer on the subject!

But as a practical question, Ori, can you tell me what the difference in sound is between the old Blüthner aliquot system with the bridge agraffes and half-length strings and the new system? Has the amount of sustain changed? How much? Are they richer in harmonics? If so, which ones? Or could you tell us the same differences between the sound of the new Imperial and the old one, or the Schimmel, or the Seiler?

Could you pass my test? If you went into another store, and came across two of the old kind and two of the new kind, could you, without looking, tell which was which just from the sound? Because the question is not whether having duplexes changes the sustain or harmonics. The question is whether the changes in the sound are significant. Because if they are not, they are just there for the hype. [/b]
BDB,
I think that yours is actually a good post.
With the conclusions of your first segment I completely agree and have stated so myself. Designers don't have to agree with each other, otherwise they'll be all making the same piano. Yet, the example you gave is somewhat inaccurate. Mason & Hamlin and Fazioli have a very similar design idea and are obviously in agreement in regards to the front duplex segment (the one that Del suggested may be howling yet accepted that it does change the tone and get it to "sizzle"). Fazioli and Masons approach to the back duplex segment (the one that some consider to be ineffective), is very similar to each other too, but is different indeed then the approach Bluthner took.

As to the rest of your post...when I play pianos I form an opinion about their overall performance. As it was mentioned by Grotrian to pique, they felt that in their specific design a duplex segment wasn't needed due to the higher tension of the strings and their belief that it produces enough high harmonics. This shows that there are many aspects of the design that work with each other in order to create the tone that is considered ideal by the designer.

One would view "sizzle" as beautiful while the other would see it as objectionable.
Too many things can effect the sustain of the instrument then just the duplex system and one has to throw ALL in to the mix in order to evaluate a piano. My way of calculating all of these elements is to actually play the finished piano and see whether I like it or not, and consider how much control I have over changing the tone and voicing to fit my customers demands and the acoustics in the final destination of the piano.
Needles to say, as a tech I take the persumed longevity of the instrument and its ability to perform well in the future into a great account too while assessing an instrument.

So in regards to performance, there is more then a reasonable chance that I'd be able to detect the differences between these pianos when given a "blind test" but the difference can be due to many variables.
However, I may not be a good representation for everyone. As a tech, my ear is trained to listen to the character and sound of the piano, as well as to any objectionable tones. I also know to what to attribute the sound that I like (or don't like) and if the matter can be changed through voicing, regulation or even adjustment of the duplex aliquots.

Most other people comparing pianos don't have this luxury or the experience of playing and working on thousands of instruments as I have, and it may take them a bit longer to see the differences. Yet many can, especially when given a few instruments for a direct comparison to each other.

We have heard here from those who criticize the system. There are those that criticize the LACK of duplex segments too. They claim that pianos without this segment don't have enough color and tend to be "thin" or "dull" (again, this can sometimes be compensated by other elements as Grotrian suggested) in the treble and also do not project as well as those with duplex scale segment.

My opinion is that tunable duplex scale can add a lot to the tone of the piano and offers a tech that is experienced with it more control.
It is only an opinion, like any other opinion that was suggested in this thread.
The only substantial fact in regards to the complete final results and the performance of the instruments is that most high end pianos decided to incorporate tuned duplex scale segments into some or all of their pianos.
This IS a fact.

So one can try the Bluthner, Mason, Fazioli, C.Bechstein, Estonia, etc and form their own opinion about the sound quality.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909430 - 10/27/05 01:47 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
piano dad,
I'm probably guilty of being less then tactful at times. I am a very direct person and say what's on my mind. As I learned, sometimes I can rub certain people the wrong way even if it isn’t my intention, and although usually (as in this thread) I give my remarks with a good spirit and a smile.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909431 - 10/27/05 01:55 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
 Quote:
The only substantial fact in regards to the complete final results and the performance of the instruments is that most high end pianos decided to incorporate tuned duplex scale segments into some or all of their pianos.
Most low-end pianos, too.
 Quote:
So one can try the Bluthner, Mason, Fazioli, C.Bechstein, Estonia, etc and form their own opinion about the sound quality.
As one should do with any piano, rather than listening to hype about duplex scales or any other extraneous thing, including price and manufacturer's reputation.

As one should do evaluating rebuilt pianos, whether or not the soundboard has been replaced! \:D
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909432 - 10/27/05 02:05 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
ori, i'm going to give you some specific examples of statements you made that got my dander up. then i am leaving it.

btw, my objections do not come so much from "coming to del's defense" as i'm sure he can look after himself. it is more about creating false impressions on the board for those who are not familiar with the players.

you wrote:

 Quote:
Now you say that it is the experience of hundreds and not just yours... Well, you may think for some reason that you can speak for hundreds but you really shouldn't, please just speak for yourself.
as i wrote, del is well qualified to speak of what hundreds of techs have found as he is talking to hundreds of techs on an ongoing basis. so there is no reason he shouldn't. i, for one, am very interested in what del has found hundreds of techs to say, and don't appreciate him being told to shut up.

ok, then there is the sarcasm:
 Quote:
"A problem for generations of owners" you say...ok then, lets make our own unscientific test with our forum members.
then you call on derick to comment, as if his one experience with a bosie imperial that is maintained by one of the finest techs in the world somehow disproves what is general knowledge among competent techs.

then more sarcasm and nasty tone:
 Quote:
What about the new C.bechstein pianos? Anyone tried these? Surly the first thought that came to anyone’s mind playing them was.."oh my, these horrific sounds, this piano is howling so bad it will likely be a huge problem as these duplexes will keep on jangling.

And what about Fazioli? This shameless Italian piano dared using those tunable duplex segments and now it's howling and buzzing all over. What was the designer thinking??? He should have checked the writings here for advice before presenting the world with this whistling problem.
are you out in the field, ori, dealing with these pianos long after they have left the showroom? or are you simply speaking from what you experience with brand new pianos in a showroom setting? you didn't answer my other questions about the breadth of your experience.

then while bs-ing your way about how much you respect del, you post what is a snide personal attack:

 Quote:
You have made remarks in the past about other subjects that although may be "universally" true, were completely wrong when used in context to the piano discussed as it was implementing an entirely different process which obviously you had no idea about.

You may not except that there are other ways of doing things then yours, but I believe that there are.
If you were absolutely right all the time and there were no other ways, then everyone would prefer the pianos designed by you and recognize their superiority to any other instrument.
But since many seem to prefer pianos other then the CW of your design, you should at least consider the possibility that this isn't a black and white issue and that other knowledgeable designers truly feel differently then you.

When people listen to the finish product, all the theoretical explanations fly out the window anyway as it is the performance that counts in this regard.

So when Mason & Hamlin, Fazioli or Bluthner will ask you to design their next instrument, I'm sure you'll design it without duplexes.
Until this happens though, please respect the designers of these pianos and the possibility that they have different opinions then yours.
I won't underestimate the knowledge of these designers even if they don't post in detail on this forum regarding the way they solved the (unsolvable by you?) theoretical problems you presented.
aside from the fact that you come across as haughty and sanctimonious, and aside from your attempts to discredit a member of this community, your insistence that people who buy the pianos that you just happen to sell will not have to face these problems does a disservice to this community.

dealers want consumers to believe that what they buy in the showroom is what they will always have. but the truth is quite different. this is why people who buy high end pianos really do need high end technicians who understand these problems and know how to cope with them. the piano has not been perfected, not even by any of the manufacturers whose pianos you sell.

this community greatly benefits by someone with del's knowledge and experience explaining why this is to us. it does not benefit from you trying to silence him and disparage his knowledge.

you are free to disagree with any of us and make your case for why. what i take exception to is the disparagement of another professional's knowledge and experience in a very personal way and in a very public place.

btw, the charles walter is a very fine piano and i came very close to buying one. you couldn't pay me to take a mason, a fazioli, a bechstein, or a bluthner. just saying that so that other piano shoppers know there are no absolutes on these things.

i doubt del would bother to defend himself against you, and anyway, that isn't the point. the point is defending the forums from disinformation. consumers need to know that even high end pianos have design flaws and imperfections, and can experience problems down the line.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909433 - 10/27/05 02:18 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
 Quote:
Originally posted by BDB:
[Most low-end pianos, too.
Not true as far as I know.
I don't know of any low-end pianos that incorporate tunable duplex segments in their instruments. Even some of the brand names known best for their mid level pianos don't ( or didn't until lately) incorporate even fixed tuned duplexes into their lower level pianos.

If you know of any low end pianos that have tunable duplex segments please inform us all.
It’s easy to back claims like this up by providing the names of the currently made pianos so please do.
I'm truly interested.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909434 - 10/27/05 03:00 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
curry Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/02
Posts: 3769
Loc: Hamilton Twp, NJ
Ori, you have'nt worked on many Baldwin SF and SD grands. Their treble termination pieces(patented), have been known to present many problematic string noises, ranging from howls to zings. More often than not, string leveling/mating, and voicing does not cure the problem. There are two types of termination pieces used in these grands. An type A, and B. Both have different radiuses, lengths. This is the nature of this front duplex, and although many feel it provides excellent front string termination, many wish that it be changed to something less problematic.
_________________________
G.Fiore "aka-Curry". Tuner-Technician serving the central NJ, S.E. PA area. b214cm@aol.com Concert tuning, Regulation-voicing specialist.
Dampp-Chaser installations, piano appraisals. PTG S.Jersey Chapter 080.
Bösendorfer 214 # 47,299 214-358

Top
#909435 - 10/27/05 03:04 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Derick II Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 1426
Loc: New York
I really think that Ori does not believe he sounds condecending. I also think that the only person who should be upset about Ori's tone, if he should feel annoyed, is Del.

That said, I do hear a little extra "sizzle" in my piano when the front duplex is not muted. Operative word being "little". I don't hear any whistles or howles, but it may develop them over time. I won't be a happy camper if it does.

All the pianos I have had in the past had front and rear duplexes. One of my pianos did have some "weirdness" going on in the high treble. I thought it was due to tuning or voicing, nothing helped. Obviously none of the techs I had working on it had a clue either. Perhaps it was due to duplexing.

The last piano I owned, I had for 15 years. That piano never had, or developed, odd sounds in the treble.

I can't draw any conclusions from my experience, but I'm very interested in hearing the rest of the debate on this issue.

Derick
_________________________
"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."[/b] - Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


Top
#909436 - 10/27/05 03:38 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
del wrote:

 Quote:
And it is when they end up slightly out of tune that the dissonant string howls set in that some poor tuner then has to figure out how to deal with.
so how does a tuner deal with this phenomenon? is it a matter of distributing the tension more evenly along the string? or something else?
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909437 - 10/27/05 03:46 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Pique,
Lighten up will you?
I won't relate to all of your post as you keep on trying to derail a discussion for no good reason, but I will comment on some points that seem to bother you.

You said:
 Quote:
As I wrote, del is well qualified to speak of what hundreds of techs have found as he is talking to hundreds of techs on an ongoing basis. so there is no reason he shouldn't. i, for one, am very interested in what del has found hundreds of techs to say, and don't appreciate him being told to shut up.

[/b]
Del has talked to many techs in his life but so did I and so did the designers that hold an opinion other then his.
I never told anyone, especially Del to shut up and even before Del got into this thread I made sure that my posts include that there are those that don't like it and criticize the system...hence, the "other" side.
Del can speak for himself and the other techs can speak for themselves if indeed their knowledge comes from experience.
Somehow reading many of Del's posts I can see that "regular" field techs may be somewhat intimidated to contradict or even talk to him just because of his vast technical knowledge and would mostly listen. It doesn't mean that he is always right though, and it doesn't mean that there is an absolute right.
No one elected Del (or anyone else) as far as I know to speak on their behalf and there are plenty of technicians on this board that can chime in whenever they want to.

Then you quoted me and said:
 Quote:
"you post what is a snide personal attack"[/b]
I don't know why you call it an attack. This is how I feel and I would say it to Del directly if we were to meet...actually wait, we did meet and I did say this to him directly while he was on the sofa sitting to my right.
I think that different designers have different ideas about the way a piano should sound and this is part of the beauty of the business. There are different tastes and flavors.
As I mentioned before, one may want this extra “sizzle” or “color” in their pianos while others would find it objectionable.
Who’s right…no one in my opinion… it is only a matter of taste.

Then you said also using different font:
 Quote:
"just happen to sell"...[/b]
Well, you already said before more subtly that I may have an "agenda". Also you implied that there might be "agendas" in general although you didn't direct it toward me directly as you said just now.
I didn't react then and won't really react now to this but simply say that first: "agendas" can be attributed to those that like the use of the system and those that don't use it just as easily.
And second: not all pianos that I SELL have tunable or tuned duplex scales, and in fact, some of the instruments other dealers carry in my area and which could be defined as competitors have this system incorporated.
The more important issue is however, that remarks were made about most high end pianos (that are using this system) are going through the additional expense just because of “marketing”. These aren’t companies who sell to Mr. Jones who wants to by a Piano Shaped Object for the living room, but to some of the most discerning pianists. People that are well qualified to judge the piano by it’s own performance.


I'll relate to this last thing too as I think that this is probably the only question you raised that deserve an answer in regards to the issue at hand. You asked:

 Quote:
are you out in the field, ori, dealing with these pianos long after they have left the showroom? or are you simply speaking from what you experience with brand new pianos in a showroom setting?

[/b]
I service the higher end pianos that we sell in our area myself. There are some new era Mason & Hamlin pianos that I service for 8 years since we took on the line. The Estonias we took on about 5 years ago, which was just after their major redesign.
That's in addition to the many Steinway pianos we sold and I service.
Since my time is divided between showroom work and maintenance, I service at this time only a select few hundreds of customers (much less then I did three or four years ago), almost all with higher end pianos, yet I worked on thousands of different pianos in the field. Also, I have sent (and sending) other technicians to take care of our pianos all the time as I can't take care of everyone. If there is a problem, they tell me about it. None of these instruments in the field show any "howling" qualities due to the aliquots, and once I set up the aliquots at the time the instrument is prepped they don't move.

Maybe it happens to other brands of instrument I'm not accustomed to work with, but this is why I said before that in a PROPERLY designed system none of this should happen.


Now I dignified your comments with answers. I’d appreciate if you’d stop from trying to derail this thread to a personal level. If you call my remarks bs again as you did, insinuate that I say what I say because of an agenda, and keep on in this demanding manner I may simply choose to ignore your posts. Remember that I don’t “owe” you anything.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909438 - 10/27/05 03:57 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
Curry,
You are correct that I'm not very familiar with these Bladwin models.
NYC is Steinway country, and there were times Iwould work on almost twenty Steinway pianos a week and the occasional Mason & Hamlin.
Not many Baldwins though.
If they may be having all sorts of problems to may be due to certain problems that weren’t solved or what I'd call a system that isn't properly designed.

If one has much experience with certain instruments that exhibit duplex related problems, I can see how they would form a negative opinion about it.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909439 - 10/27/05 04:07 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
ori, i think derick hit it on the head. you don't realize how you come across. i posted examples to try to illustrate for you what the problem is. if you don't see it, i can't make you see it.

everyone here has an agenda, not just you. my own is that i am protective of fellow piano purchasers. i want them to know what is true and what is not about buying a piano. i've had my own hard knocks going through this experience as have many others here, and we need independent information. that is the value i am defending, not del the person.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909440 - 10/27/05 04:12 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
These aren't kotos. You can't tune a piano by whacking on parts of it. You tune by careful placement, by careful determination of the distance from the capo bar or rear bridge notch to the aliquot, and it's still not tuned very well, not by a long shot, no matter whether you whack on a bar, or if you are careful notching your bridge..

Incidentally, the two M & H grands (1923 and 1926) I have now have individual aliquots in the front, rather than the long aliquot bars that new ones have. So they are more tune-able than new ones. Here's another example of a manufacturer you use as an example going a step backwards in the matter of duplex scaling. Of course, it doesn't make any difference. There's no audible difference between one system and the other.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909441 - 10/27/05 04:14 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
bdb, what are kotos?
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909442 - 10/27/05 05:15 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21536
Loc: Oakland
A Japanese stringed instrument, similar to a zither. It has fixed tension strings and is tuned by movable bridges, sometimes as it is being played.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#909443 - 10/27/05 07:54 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
ori, i think derick hit it on the head. you don't realize how you come across. i posted examples to try to illustrate for you what the problem is. if you don't see it, i can't make you see it.

everyone here has an agenda, not just you. my own is that i am protective of fellow piano purchasers. i want them to know what is true and what is not about buying a piano. i've had my own hard knocks going through this experience as have many others here, and we need independent information. that is the value i am defending, not del the person. [/b]
Remarkably, I’m also interested in educated consumers. This is the reason I provided here, from my first post a balanced picture detailing my beliefs, what they are based on, and acknowledged that there is another side to the matter.
If you hold the opinion that Fazioli, mason & Hamlin, C. Bechstein, Bluthner, Estonia, Steuinway, Seiler, Schimmel, Bosendorfer and a few other manufacturers are all involved in a plot to deceive customers, incorporating something that in order to perform right will be costly and time consuming and are willing to provide the consumer with BAD INFORMATION then there is little to argue about.

I'll be on the side of these manufacturers based on my knowledge and experience and you'll be on the side of...pique, the self appointed consumer advocate with little experience, knowledge or ability to asses information and tell if it's good or bad.

I’m sure you’ll still give your advice though, whether its right or wrong.
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909444 - 10/27/05 11:16 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5300
Loc: Olympia, Washington
When these discussions get personal and antagonistic it is time, I think, to let them die. I’ll try to briefly summarize what I’ve been trying to say over these past few posts at least some of which, I fear, has become either misplaced or lost in a sea of opinion. Before leaving the topic behind, however, I’d like to make a couple of personal points and then I’ll try to summarize the information I’ve tried to present about tuned duplex stringing scales.

First, I do not claim to speak for any other technicians besides than myself. When I say numerous technicians have had problems with tuned duplex systems my statement is based on real-life conversations I have had with technicians over the past 40+ years, technical classes and seminars I have both attended and taught over the past 30+ years and e-mails I continue to receive on a more-or-less regular basis. These are first-person experiences that have been shared with me and I have chosen to neither ignore them nor dismiss them as the simple ravings of ill-informed and inexperienced incompetents. The evidence is there to find for anyone who is interested.

Second, let’s please leave Bluthner out of this discussion. Obviously, Bluthner uses an entirely different aliquot system and is in a class all its own—and a rather nice class it is, I might add. That a forth aliquot string does not fall into the class of tuned duplex systems should be apparent from the various descriptions of the tuned duplex scales that have been discussed.

Finally, yes, I have heard objectionably harsh-sounding treble sections in several of the pianos listed above. Including miscellaneous string noises that were traceable to the tuned aliquot systems in use. As to whether these pianos could have been toned down and/or the string noises cleaned up, I don’t know. I didn’t work on them, I just listened to them. I’m willing to concede the possibility, but how long will it be before these noises come back? I don’t know and no one else does either—it is simply impossible to predict the future of these things.

This topic would be easier both to explain and understand if tuned duplex systems were either all on or all off. As I’ve tried to explain earlier on, they are not. String termination efficiency across a capo tastro/V-bar system is a function of two primary factors: the string termination angle and the duplex string length. Secondary factors include the string diameter/tension ratio, frequency (of the speaking fundamental), shape of the termination piece (usually a V-bar), etc. To allow appreciable energy to bleed across the V-bar termination (i.e., to be classified as an inefficient string termination system) there must be some combination of those two principle factors: either the string termination angle must be relatively low or the duplex string length must be relatively lone. Usually it is some combination of the two.

For example, a duplex string segment with a string deflection angle of 13° and a duplex segment length of 35 mm is going to fall somewhere in the middle of the normally acceptable range of string termination efficiency. It is going to somewhat inefficient and enough energy is going to bleed across the V-bar to nicely excite the duplex string segment. If the V-bar is slightly rough or grooved it will undoubtedly buzz. If a gray iron plate is used some portion of the energy transferred across the V-bar will be lost to heat. This will, however, be a more efficient string termination than a system having the same deflection and a duplex segment length of 40 mm. And less efficient than one having the same string deflection angle and a duplex segment length of 30 mm.

A duplex string segment with a string deflection angle of 17° and a duplex segment length of 35 mm is going to provide a somewhat more efficient string termination than will the example given above. Some small amount of energy will still be lost to heat at the V-bar itself, but very little will bleed across to the duplex string segment whether it gives the appearance of being tuned or not is irrelevant. Even if the V-bar surface is fairly rough it is unlikely that there will be much in the way of objectionable string noises. Again, this will be more efficient than a system with the same deflection angle and a duplex segment length of 40 mm and less efficient than a system with a duplex segment length of 30 mm.

In discussing the characteristics of these systems it does no good to speak in generalities without some reference to the specific characteristics of the system involved. For example, reference has been made to a certain Bösendorfer 290 grand. But no details of the system are given. As I look at the pictures provided earlier it appears that this system has both a relative large string deflection and a relatively short duplex segment length. It is difficult to tell exactly what these parameters are from the picture alone and I don’t happen to have one in the shop just now so I’ll refrain from going too far out on this limb until I can check the specifics for myself. But, assuming the pictures are a true reflection of the actual design, then it really doesn’t matter what the system looks like; the speaking lengths of the strings are going to fairly efficiently terminated and there will be very little energy bleeding across the V-bar. I would not expect there to be much energy lost in this system, nor would I expect to find much in the way of extraneous string noises in this design.

It is the design characteristics of the system that are important here, not what it is called. So, let’s assume for the moment, that the pictures are not deceiving us. Is this, then, truly a tuned-duplex or aliquot system? I would say it is not, despite its having every appearance of being designed that way. Tuned duplex, or aliquot, systems by their nature must exhibit something less than perfect string termination efficiency. A relatively large amount of energy must be allowed to bleed across the V-bar and excite the duplex string segment. It matters little if the duplex string segment appears to be tuned; if the vibrating energy from the speaking string is efficiently blocked—not allowed across the V-bar—there is not going to be much vibrating going on in the duplex string segment. Which is not to say there will be none at all—there just won’t be much. Not enough to appreciably affect the overall performance of the piano either way. And not enough to generate unwanted string noises.

So, nothing is simple about the piano. Rarely is anything all one way or the other. And with that—since I’m not one who goes out of his way to encounter verbal abuse—I leave this topic behind.

Del
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

Top
#909445 - 10/28/05 12:15 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Ori Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 1703
Loc: Stamford CT, New York City .
 Quote:
Originally posted by Del:
When these discussions get personal and antagonistic it is time, I think, to let them die. I’ll try to briefly summarize what I’ve been trying to say over these past few posts at least some of which, I fear, has become either misplaced or lost in a sea of opinion. Before leaving the topic behind, however, I’d like to make a couple of personal points and then I’ll try to summarize the information I’ve tried to present about tuned duplex stringing scales.

First, I do not claim to speak for any other technicians besides than myself. When I say numerous technicians have had problems with tuned duplex systems my statement is based on real-life conversations I have had with technicians over the past 40+ years, technical classes and seminars I have both attended and taught over the past 30+ years and e-mails I continue to receive on a more-or-less regular basis. These are first-person experiences that have been shared with me and I have chosen to neither ignore them nor dismiss them as the simple ravings of ill-informed and inexperienced incompetents. The evidence is there to find for anyone who is interested.

Second, let’s please leave Bluthner out of this discussion. Obviously, Bluthner uses an entirely different aliquot system and is in a class all its own—and a rather nice class it is, I might add. That a forth aliquot string does not fall into the class of tuned duplex systems should be apparent from the various descriptions of the tuned duplex scales that have been discussed.

Finally, yes, I have heard objectionably harsh-sounding treble sections in several of the pianos listed above. Including miscellaneous string noises that were traceable to the tuned aliquot systems in use. As to whether these pianos could have been toned down and/or the string noises cleaned up, I don’t know. I didn’t work on them, I just listened to them. I’m willing to concede the possibility, but how long will it be before these noises come back? I don’t know and no one else does either—it is simply impossible to predict the future of these things.

[/b]
Del,
I hope that pique won't take it as a verbal abuse if I were to tell you that I think that this is a very well thought of post, and convey your position in an excellent manner.

I also want to thank you for the detailed technical explanation in the second part of your post. You can obviously have a talent to explain things in a simple and eloquent way.
You wrote this in regards to the front duplex segment:

 Quote:
For example, a duplex string segment with a string deflection angle of 13° and a duplex segment length of 35 mm is going to fall somewhere in the middle of the normally acceptable range of string termination efficiency. It is going to somewhat inefficient and enough energy is going to bleed across the V-bar to nicely excite the duplex string segment. If the V-bar is slightly rough or grooved it will undoubtedly buzz. If a gray iron plate is used some portion of the energy transferred across the V-bar will be lost to heat. This will, however, be a more efficient string termination than a system having the same deflection and a duplex segment length of 40 mm. And less efficient than one having the same string deflection angle and a duplex segment length of 30 mm.

A duplex string segment with a string deflection angle of 17° and a duplex segment length of 35 mm is going to provide a somewhat more efficient string termination than will the example given above. Some small amount of energy will still be lost to heat at the V-bar itself, but very little will bleed across to the duplex string segment whether it gives the appearance of being tuned or not is irrelevant. Even if the V-bar surface is fairly rough it is unlikely that there will be much in the way of objectionable string noises. Again, this will be more efficient than a system with the same deflection angle and a duplex segment length of 40 mm and less efficient than a system with a duplex segment length of 30 mm.

[/b]
As some of the new instruments that I work with, come with duplex segment of about 30mm in length (yet can be moved back and fourth a few mm), and since the deflection angle can be determined by using different size of aliquots, it is easy to see why the tunable design of the front duplexes may offer a certain amount of control. By shortening the distance or increasing the angle, the string termination will be more efficient and the duplex segment will be less "sizzling".

By increasing the duplex length or by using smaller aliquot bars, the tech can decrease the efficiency of the string termination and increase the amount of "sizzle" from the duplex segment.

At least some manufacturers are making efforts to allow lower angles and a less efficient termination of the strings by keeping the V bar in very good shape. they are trying to reinforce it (not necessarily with steel to avoid string breakage) and keep it smooth.
This allows for more energy to "bleed" into the duplex segment and excite it while still not buzz.

I also agree with you that we shouldn't generalize the system, as there are simply too many variables.
This isn't a black and white issue.
Thank you,
Ori
_________________________
Ori Bukai - Owner/Founder of Allegro Pianos - New York City and Stamford CT showrooms.

Authorized dealer representing:

Bluthner, Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Estonia, August Forster, Haessler, Kawai.

Restored Steinway pianos.

www.allegropianos.com

Top
#909446 - 10/28/05 07:50 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1715
Loc: Massachusetts
I don't know if Del is still monitoring this thread, but, if so, I'd like to ask him a technical question. He mentioned energy loss through the v-bar caused by the highly damped nature of cast iron.

I haven't thought this through, but it would seem that the energy loss would be related to the relative impedances of the string and v-bar at the point at which they touch. For example, if the v-bar were infinitely stiff, then its damping wouldn't be an issue because it would not move and therefore wouldn't absorb energy.

Given that the v-bar doesn't change as the string angle and distance between the v-bar and string termination point is changed, then one must conclude (I think), that the impedance of the string as it crosses the v-bar must be a function of these two variables.

If I have time this weekend I'll peruse a few physics texts and see if I can turn something up.

Top
#909447 - 10/28/05 10:12 AM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i can't get too upset about being insulted by the same person who insults del fandrich. that puts me in pretty good company. i think i'll follow del's example and leave this topic behind now.

fyi, in future i won't waste my time trying to raise anybody's consciousness about what constitutes antagonistic behavior. i'll just hit the "report post" button.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#909448 - 10/28/05 03:49 PM Re: Duplex-like thingies on Bösendorfer, Grotrian, Petrof, Samick, and Nordiska
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
i can't get too upset about being insulted by the same person who insults del fandrich. that puts me in pretty good company. i think i'll follow del's example and leave this topic behind now.

fyi, in future i won't waste my time trying to raise anybody's consciousness about what constitutes antagonistic behavior. i'll just hit the "report post" button. [/b]
Same ol' pique..... ;\)
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

Top
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >

What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
"Break Free" by Ariana Grande on Piano
by Zach Evans
09/23/14 06:37 PM
V-Grand delivery on Friday!
by TonyB
09/23/14 06:36 PM
Kawai CE220 CA65 cabinet vibrations
by origen
09/23/14 04:43 PM
Baldwin 243 for Grade 4 students - Advice please!
by LeslieG
09/23/14 04:39 PM
Exorcist movie main theme
by Danijelcro
09/23/14 12:03 PM
Who's Online
150 registered (A Guy, accordeur, 36251, 47 invisible), 1393 Guests and 13 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76297 Members
42 Forums
157714 Topics
2316611 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission