And I thought this was a piano forum. Silly me!!

"Quality" and "Reliability" ...

Again, different people would put different weights on what goes into "quality." For me personally, "reliability" is a very significant component of "quality." If the thing malfunctions too frequently, it ain't good "quality."

E.g.: "What do you mean this thing is 'high-quality'? Something in it breaks every few days and it rarely works at all in the winter!"

Zormpas,
Your ideal car sounds like a real seller. Why don't you buy it yourself, you'll be sure to sell one at least every 20-30 years (to yourself).

Sorry, but "quality" IS "reliability" - you can't have one without the other when discussing automobiles.

What one "values" in an automobile: handling, looks, reliability, crash worthiness, gas mileage, etc... is entirely a horse of a different color and a matter of personal opinion.

To whomever said Consumer Reports is especially worthless, has had their head in the sand. They don't go on and on about ridiculous stuff; they simply mention it when it's important - like a rear window defogger timer.

Eins, an automobile gets a "Consumer Report Best Buy" rating for providing the most car for the money. The car also must have "AVERAGE" reliability. That doesn't mean the quality of it is way up there. When they compared Hyundias and Yugo's years ago, the Yugo got the best buy rating. Now look at which manufacturer is poised to deliver a serious blow to the Japanese and which one no longer exists. The A4 did manage to pull off a couple of "average" reliability ratings over the years. But plenty of "below average" ratings as well.

Derick

Don't tell that my wife.

She'd kill for an Audi.

She almost killed me after I wrecked our 1989 Audi 90 [265.000 miles...] in a head on.

At least I walked....while the other guy limped.

norbert

Audi's are nice cars. Just not particularly reliable in comparison to the other German automakers (with Volkswagon being the exception).

I really like BMW's, but they certainly aren't a paramount of reliability when compared to the Japanese. Nevertheless, I like the way they ride and handle better than the Japanese cars and am willing to pay more and get less "stuff".

But that's just me. Everyone has different priorities.

Derick

I don't recall Consumer Reports ever giving a car a "Best Buy" Rating. Ordinarily they just "Recommend" certain models. And they certainly didn't recommend the Yugo.

I suspect there is some confusion with Consumer's Digest here.

I don't know how Consumer's Digest rates things, but Consumer Reports does give a "Best Buy" rating for everything they test. From washing machines to automobiles.

Derick

Don't ever recall seeing a "Best Buy" for cars; they rarely give them for any product.

And certainly NOT the Yugo!!!

Yugo fans everywhere should rent "Drowning Mona".

Well that's Consumer's Digest. Not Consumer Reports. And we are talking 100 years ago when there were a ton of stripped down econoboxes invading the planet. Even in the lowest of the low, one is going to be "the best".

Derick

Published by ConsumerReports.org in April 2005:

Quality Rating 2004:[/b]

Acura: 10
Infiniti: 11
Lexus: 11
Audi: 12
Average: 18
BMW: 21
Mercedes: 25

Eins,

What do you think of the Saab 9.3 as compared to the A6?

SAAB

Back to pianos...

Let's see Consumer Reports rate pianos!

I have in mind a couple models I would like to see in a crash test... :p

Alex,
These two cars are both good in their own way. They are not in the same class, though. The A6 is bigger and a Tier 1 car. Both share a very unique advantage: they are in the exclusive club of the four safest cars in America (with a double-best pick safety rating by the IIHS; the Audi A4 is another member in that club).

The direct competitors of the A6 are BMW 5-series, E-class, Infiniti M, Lexus GS, Acura RL, Jaguar S, Cadillac STS. Of these, Automobile Magazine rated the A6 the winner in a comparison test of May 2005.

The Saab is not considered a Tier 1 car. It compares to smaller vehicles from Volvo and maybe VW, from a quality perspective.

Saab offer the GM employee discount and have always been deeply discounted (like Volvo). It is the only way for them to sell their product, and the discount immediately reduce the resale value by the same amount. There is no softer car on the used car market than a Saab (aside from Korean cars, maybe).

Once you sit in both the 9-3 and the A6 and drive them, the difference should become very obvious. But you have to pay for this difference, as you always get what you pay for in a free market.

HTH,

Consumer's Research Magazine used to rate pianos and electronic organs. If you can find 30+ year old copies in a public library you'll find it interesting reading.

Yeah....Young Chang was No1 in pianos.....

norbert

I got my ratings from the 2005 buyers guide which gives Audi 11 black marks for its 3 models from 1996 thru 2003. Perhaps, in year 1, Audi out-scores BMW. But by year 2 the Audi must totally fall apart as the 11 black marks[/b] for 3[/b] models versus the 6 black marks[/b] for 5[/b] models (BMW) proves.

Not to mention BMW getting 16 ABOVE AVERAGE[/b] ratings to the ZERO[/b] that Audi got.

Sorry Eins, Audi is a BMW/M-B wannabe. It hasn't happened yet. You mentioned sales, Audi outsold Mercedes in Germany for the first time? What about world-wide. BMW and Mercedes sold over 1.2 million cars in 2004. Audi sold 780,000 cars. Audi has a lot of catching up to do.

Derick

Norbert,

That was probably Consumer's Digest.

This was Consumer's Research Magazine. I had the impression that William Braid White had something to do with it.

The top-rated grands were Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, and Baldwin. The top-rated verticals were Bechstein, Knight, Everett, and Yamaha.

And that's about all I remember clearly.

Maybe in America.

In Germany itself, it's been considered the top car for years.

norbert

Oh come on Norbert. What are you smoking? Mercedes has been considered the top car in Germany for years. Audi is a mere blip on the radar screen.

Derick

You live in the past Derick. If you would care to update your facts, you'd learn that...

Audi outsold Mercedes Benz in the first quarter this year in Germany.

Audi's A8 is selling more units in Germany than MB's S class and BMW's 7-series COMBINED.

Yes, Audi has a lot of catching up to do, still, worldwide. And it is happening. For a relative newcomer to the party, they are doing very well, and I am happy that it is a bit of an underdog (if I interpret that word correctly). A lot of people are sick of BMW and Mercedes because they have become a commodity (and recently, their quality sucks, so they say).

If you prefer BMW, good for you. And good for me. That way, I get spared of ever meeting you in my showroom

Another fact Derick. Auto Motor und Sport, the leading car magazine in Germany, does an annual readers' poll for the most desirable cars in their segments. Readers can choose whatever they want from the offerings in the segments. The last results were:

Audi A3 in its segment
Audi A4 in its segment
Audi A6 in its segment
Audi A8 in its segment.

From a purely subjective point of view, the Saab 9.3 is great. Unfortunately, they discontinued the hatchback. I've loved many women, but this is the only car I've loved.

It's fun as hell to drive(a wolf in sheeps clothing)
It has ample room for all of my tools--and my bicycle!--in the hatchback/trunk
IT gets decent gas mileage
It has butt warmers (ya need 'em in Sweden!)
It has 95k miles on it, and I expect to get at least 100k more before I even think of selling it, even though a minivan would be far more practical for my line of work.

Now, back to pianos...

Eins, your signature said nothing about trying Mason and Hamlin...wuzzup with that?

velopresto,
M&H is not mentioned in my sig line because I didn't try them out :p

IIRC, I was thinking about M&H at the time but what I read about it rather scared me (inconsistent quality in the past), so I just didn't pursue them. If I had come across one, I'm sure I'd still have given them a try. I'm sure they are a good piano for many players, just as Saab is a good car for many drivers (and thereby, back to cars )

Well, this ought to anger both the BMW and Mercedes enthusiasts.

BMW 5 and 7 Series, and Benz CLK, E, S, SL Class are five of the top ten most unreliable luxury cars

Wow, the first quarter of THIS year in Germany ONLY[/b], Audi outsold Mercedes. That's the first[/b] time ever correct Eins? That hardly qualifies Audi, as being "the top car" for years as Norbert claims and as you are trying to lend validity to.

So the brand spanking new A8 outsold the 4 year old BMW 7-series and the 7 year old S-class Mercedes. Why does that not surprise me? How long as the new A8 been out? A couple of months?

You are also talking about Germany ONLY[/b] sales figures. That's a small piece of the pie and of little significance in the grand scheme of the global market.

Face it, Audi has a long, long, long way to go before it ever has the prestige of Mercedes and BMW even Lexus for that matter.

You sound like a Yamaha owner trying to convince the masses that it's better than a Steinway. It's a shame the rest of the world doesn't agree.

Derick

You're right Derick. Perlen vor die Säue.

Despite the facts that

I've owned my Audi for 8 years, and it's close to having 100,000 miles on it
I've had to call for roadside assistance twice during that time
I have a minor heart attack every 6 months I see the shop bill
It may not have the prestige, whatever, etc. of other makes
One year I got four flat tires within the period of a month and a half (OK, I guess that wasn't the car's fault)
AND the vinyl on the driver's seat is wearing out (what do I do about that??--it was originally white, only now it's not so white anymore)

I think it's a beautiful, great car, and it still feels like a "new" car to me. I don't have any plans to replace it. I'm a satisfied customer--isn't that what it's all about? I'm expecting my Japanese-made piano to provide the same satisfaction for a long time to come.

Audi with *vinyl* seats?

Sure this wasn't one of those cheap little copies coming from...ahem....ahem...??

norbert