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I grew up with an Acrosonic spinet. Every other kid I faced in competition had a nice Steinway, Yamaha, etc. grand at home. Playing in public is hard enough without trying to adjust to a completely different type of instrument. It wasn't easy.

Yeah, I know, I made it through. But it would have been a lot easier if I had been practicing on a piano which had an action remotely like the instruments on which I performed.

It is just about impossible to decide to become a piano major in the middle of the freshman year of college. One ought to be an accomplished pianist walking in the door. I began study with the chair of the piano department at the local university as a junior in high school and from my first lesson he was already planning for me to be a college professor someday. He knew I'd never make it as a performer!

No one expects a college freshman to be an successful doctor or lawyer or biologist or just about anything else. But music is different, and at good music schools only the best will even be admitted.

Bela, if you have $20K as a budget for a new grand, the Schimmels will probably be a little beyond your reach. But, there are many very good grands in that general price area. If you wish to go into the used piano marketplace, and I would suggest you not dismiss the idea off-hand, there are many wonderful grands to be had in that price range. Steinways? Well, let's just say there are most likely better price/performance values out there. You will not be able to purchase a new Steinway grand for $20K, and many of the better used ones will still be priced beyond your budget.

If a new grand is truly the goal, let us know. You'll get lots of suggestions on makes and models to try out.

Before investing any money in a new piano, invest some in the piano you have. After 4 years of use, it would be wise to have your tech run through the regulation of the action, and make sure it is working as well as it can. If your daughter can tell the difference, she will be at least beginning to understand what the differences in piano actions can make, and you both will be in a better position to decide whether a grand will be enough of an advantage to consider buying one now. The difference between a grand action and an upright action is less likely to affect one's playing than the difference between a well-regulated action and a poorly-regulated one.

Bela,

This is a hard choice. Do you aniticipate your daughter going away to college or living at home while she attends college? If she's moving away, would she take the grand piano with her? These are quesitons I would ask myself.

I really thought BDB provided an excellent comment concerning a tune-up on your existing piano. It is only 4 years old. This is the way I might lean in the short term anyway while you're making this decision.

Bela,

If indeed your daughter is serious about her music and will be studying music in college, a grand might be the way to go. Playing and practicing on a grand is definitely advantageous. Only you can decide if it's in the budget.

Were I in your shoes, I would think about the advantages of her playing a grand before entering college. I would think about whether you will keep it at home, or move it to where she is living during college. I would think about whether the piano will remain in your home or remain forever with your daughter, wherever she goes.

MOST important, is to involve your daughter in the process with you. Granted that you will pay for the piano, but she will play it. Her preferences for tone, action, touch should be considered.

If I don't miss my guess, you are in the same boat I was when I began shopping. You know little about pianos, how to shop for them, or even what to shop for. If, this is not the case you are definitely ahead of the game. You have probably heard everyone hear recommend buying The Piano Book as a first step. That's very good advice!

$20,000 can buy a very good piano, either new, or used. It will not buy a new Steinway, Bosendorfer, Mason & Hamlin, and some other top tier pianos, but it will buy a very good one. Were I looking in this range, Estonia, Petrof, Kawai, Young Chang, would be on my list. Others can add to it. Buying used, can sometimes take longer and having a qualified technician evaluate the piano is an absolute must.

You mentioned e-bay. Personally, unless I were very knowledgeable, and used the services, of not just just a tech who tunes, but someone highly experienced in the voicing, perhaps, rebuilding and such of pianos, I would not go this route. It could be risky.

If you decide, to shop for a grand, buy the book, then plan on shopping at as many piano dealers in your area as you can so your daughter can play the pianos, and develop an ear for the differences in action, tone and such. I think after doing this, her preferences and yours will emerge. During the shopping, use this forum to ask for advice. It can be invaluable!

Happy piano shopping if you decide to shop for grands. It can be a great experience for you and your daughter.

A bit OT, but Bela, I agree with your statement that you are pushing her to think Masters degree right away. I was one of those kids who went "straight through," from Bachelor's to PhD (not in piano, though), and I am very glad I did.

Once you get out into the real world and start making money, it's really hard to return to school. I have plenty of colleagues who did, or are, returning for advanced degrees.

There is the obvious expense, plus there's the fact that, instead of doing fun things like your friends are doing on weekends and at night you are going to school to complete your degree. If you choose to work for awhile then return to school, it's really hard to get used to the cut in cost of living.

OTOH, if you simply remain in school, you are still hanging around with poor students, you are all in the same boat, everyone is working hard. I thought it was WAY easier!

Hardest of all, IMHO, are working parents who are returning to school. I honestly don't know how they do it. It's a major, commendable effort.

Nina

Everyone knows that I think high quality uprights like the Sauter, and Steingraeber can out perform many of the smaller and/or lower end grands.

I would however like to agree with Kluurs.
I agree with the theory regarding "medium" quality grands. I would propose however, that the grands in the "medium" category, are the ones in the $20-$30k price range. I think the statement holds truth, that the medium range grands will out perform most of the uprights. But I would suggest that this doesn't include any less expensive grands. If the highest quality is running 50k-100k, then I would say the medium quality are roughly half of that lower figure.
In general though, I agree that a grand will offer superior performance to an upright in most situations.

KlavierBauer

Bela,

I'm so glad you brought all this up, as you are in very much the same situation as we are - my son and I. My son is just one year younger than your daughter, and has been studying for eight years always practicing on the (new then) Baldwin upright I was ignorant enough to pay list for.

His teacher, a university piano prof, has been pushing hard for the move up to a grand, especially because of the action. I am concerned about what will be most motivating for him as there are so many other things competing for his attention in High School. It has also not escaped my notice that almost all the other talented young pianists in the State are fortunate enough to have nice - in fact in our town, really nice - big Steinway grands for their use, and that my son is at a major disadvantage when it comes to preparing for serious competitions as he wants to do.

Although I have been repeatedly told that competitions are not "that important" (or even that they detract from true musicianship), winning them DOES help with college admissions. And also - again speaking of inspiration - my son is a competitive kid and this too is a powerful motivator for him, at least at this point.

I too want to do what's right by him and financially sound (sometimes, it almost seems they are mutually exclusive, certainly at the extreme end of financial caution)...and it's very hard to decide, especially because of the limited shopping where we are. With an eye to findng a nice used grand, for example.. Don't know how it is for you, but we can't just spend all our time on the road.

I would like to second Deborah's remarks about financial aid at the college level having been through that once already. Bluntly, the less tangible assets the better, in a sense. They ask about investments, cars, houses, but - so far anyhow - they don't ask about pianos!

And - don't know what your daughter's college ambitions/aptitude are, but the elite schools to varying degrees, really DO honor the "needs-blind" admissions standard, and generally have enough of an endowment to offer much more assistance than lower-ranking schools (while not costing more).

Deborah, your input has been extremely valuable to me - as the grown-up kid looking back, has a perspective which cannot be matched! I hope any others out there in that posittion will speak up too. It has always been one of my guiding principles as a parent, that there is no way to duplicate in later life learning opportunities missed as a child/young person.

However, Jolly's points are well taken too. Ah, I know - perhaps my son, who is multi-talented, can help me out if Social Security and Medicare go bust! That's the old-fashioned way, right?

Bela, I will follow your decision-making process with great interest - I hope you will keep us posted.

Ariel

P.S. Winniefoster, I read your personal story eagerly awaiting the outcome and then - nothing! What DID your parents decide to do, and how did it affect you?

My grand (1926 M&H AA) cost $9,000. If you read the depreciation tables in Larry Fine's book, that is lower than I should have paid for this piano in average condition, but not extremely much lower. It plays absolutely wonderfully. It has some minor cosmetic issues (don't we all! ). I purchased it exactly for the same reason that you are looking. Tech says it "needs" nothing done to it.

When she moves away, she takes it with her, or we sell it for the same amount we paid for it, probably a bit more. The only cost to us is the cost of money, and upkeep.

There are PLENTY of excellent used pianos out there in the 9K - 15K range, that will more than hold their value, provided you aren't too picky about the cosmetics. Of course, this will vary from one part of the country to another (though we bought ours from 1,000 miles away.)

Shant,

Well, now that you mention it, I have been wanting to ask you how you pulled this one off.

Quite some time ago (well before registering)I went through months of old posts - close to a year's worth, in fact, and I vaguely recall your adventures. I know you REALLY went all out looking. I don't remember how it all ended happily, however.

How DID you find your Charles Dawes Commemorative, where was it, and how did you know this tech who vetted it for you, was so highly qualified? I wrote to the PTG about this precise issue, and a higher up was kind enough to write back that mere membership in the Guild was - he was sorry to say - not that telling.

Whenever you have a chance...

Ariel

P.S. At this point we too are preferring a M&H tho' probably an "A" if only because the AA probably wouldn't fit in the house. Not without getting rid of the couch! House not that big

There is, by the way - if you haven't seen me complaining elsewhere - absolutely no shopping within a radius of minimum 150 miles where we are.

Well, the first contact was through Piano-Mart. And then lots of phonecalls and e-mails. And then my tech did his own investigating for techs, and contacted the President of the San Diego chapter, and asked him if he could use anyone for the job, regardless of price, who would he use? And he named the piano tech for the San Diego Symphony.

And then more negotiating with him. Seemed like he knew his stuff (I had my tech call him.) The piano owner was a professional who was going to Czech Republic to make a recording, and while there, she was buying a new 9' Petrof. Then I checked HER out, and the tale turned out to be true.

What else is there? Oh, we DIDN'T negotiate on price -- her price was a very, very fair one.

On size -- we thought we were going under 6' as well. But we had heard AAs in New York, and the size did seem to make a difference, so we spent time with the measuring tape. Threw out a couch, and moved a bunch of furniture. :p

Ariel, so sorry! My parents bought me a new Yamaha U3 to replace the ancient Sohmer upright I had started learning on. I was in heaven! That piano got me well into my 20s, when I moved out, and my younger brother started taking lessons on it; my parents still have it and it is loved and enjoyed by the grandchildren. The point of my post was to suggest that Bela take his daughter's feelings into consideration. She may be becoming frustrated with the limitations of her upright, or she may actually adore it as much as I adored my Sohmer until it finally really gave out.

Bela, let me play devil's advocate here. You said, Let's back up then, and ask the question: Have you also kind of pushed her towards a major in piano, or is this something she's independently committed to, heart and soul?

I agree with the wisdom of advancing expeditiously to an MA, but my reasoning is to look at the big picture: pursuing a career in piano will be a difficult road to travel. Look in the Sunday job classifieds, under "Professional." Not many firms are seeking professional pianists these days.

If you have 20K available to buy your daughter a grand, then do this: take her to 4 or 5 piano showrooms and let her try out as many grands in that price range as she can find.

Then let her choose, whether to buy or not, and which piano to buy. But make it perfectly clear that if you buy her the piano, she is in no way obligated to enter college as a piano major, and she'll have your support regardless of her decision. As Deborah asks, "At 15, did you know what you were going to study in college? "

-Jimbo

Check out the forum on "Used Baldwins". Scotte found a 5'9" Baldwin R, in fine playing condition (checked out by his tech) for $4,500 asking (might go for less.) (And if Scotte ever needs to sell it, he's almost sure to get his $4,500 back - or more!) There are plenty of such pianos out there -- just have to look.

Thanks for that post Ryan. I find that reassuring. It seems daunting when I hear it said that you can never really develop until you play a really expensive piano. Regardless of what resources you have if the passion is there then you WILL develop. I don't doubt that it is easier to develop piano skills if you have an excellent piano to work with, but it always seemed to me to hint of snobbery to say one will not develop if they have an inferior instrument.

Do music majors really take their grand pianos to school with them nowadays? I don't think so!

Will you get ~$5K worth of enjoyment and learning experience in the 4 years your daughter will be home before college? I wonder...

Nina

Vid!!!! How the heck have you been? Haven't seen you 'round these parts in eons! So glad to see you back! Tough luck that the "musical flat" didn't quite pan out. What have you been up to in the meanwhile?

Hey Matt, its good to be back. I've been immersed in the study of computer science for the past 8 months and its only recently that I've had time to indulge in other pursuits such as reading these forums.

The musical house I was living in turned out to be a disaster so I'm on my own now and have bought a digital piano. It has been worth it because I can play it whenever I want and nobody can complain about it. I don't think it is hurting my technique that much because I can still play regular pianos fine.

Hi Vid! Good to hear from you. You caught my point exactly - desire and love for music outweigh the grand vs. upright issue. My friend wasn't the only person I knew who had less than stellar pianos to practice on. I didn't have great pianos (Baldwin spinet follows by an early 90's Wurlitzer baby grand followed by crappy college practice room pianos). I am back in music school and I practice on a vertical at home (albeit a high quality vertical ). This semester (my first) I was convinced that I had to upgrade to a grand immediately, but after spending a semester getting my fingers back under me and learning new techniques I finally decided that there wasn't any rush. My vertical is just fine, has a great touch and a pleasing tone. The piano that replaces it is going to have to be stellar. Anyway, I have found that technique and musicianship are technique and musicianship, regardless of the specific instrument you play. And a brand new grand piano cannot replace desire and love of music.

Ryan

Ryan, haven't seen you in awhile... how's it going?

KB