I got to try a shopfull of German pianos yesterday, including most Bechstein uprights, a couple of Seilers and Sauters, and a couple of Grotrian Steinwegs, including the Freidrich Grotrian 112.

The latter was a real surprise as it had a very nice tone until about 1 1/2 octaves below middle C, when the short bass strings really became noticeable and the bass just wilted into to an thuddy nothingness. Having said this, it was very poorly prepared and I'm willing to believe that a good piano tech could make it better. The Carat was a revelation for an upright of this size, and I was amazed at the balance and the quality of the bass. It was head and shoulders above the Seilers and Sauters of the same size. The action had the potential to be wonderful, but I have rarely seen so many badly regulated pianos in one space, and so I'm guessing/wishing here.

The Bechsteins were everything I'd expected, and the Classic 124 was drop-dead gorgeous. If there wasn't a cash flow issue - like I can't afford one - I wouldn't hesitate.

There was an Pleyel 124 upright with what looked, at a distance, like nice inlay. When I got closer it turned out to be the third I've seen with tatty inlay, poorly finished veneers and a general aurora of French "m'enfoutisme" (="couldn't care less"), which is a shame, as musically it's a nice instrument, though distinctly over-priced compared to the Germans, IMHO.

I got one very important thing out of the visit... There was a Yamaha U1 and U3, and by moving back and forth between them and the Germans I finally cured myself of wanting to buy a Yamaha - they just sounded "brash" in comparison.

The BIG turn off was that none of the pianos were nicely regulated and tuned. I don't expect every piano in a store to be in perfect tune - but I do expect pianos of the quality and price of Bechsteins and Grortians Steinwegs to be regulated proprely. I don't think one of them was actually playable from the top of the keyboard to the bottom. Sticking notes! Notes that wouldn't sound at all! Notes so far out of tune it hurt!... The shop had far bigger discounts than I've ever seen, and it's obvious where the price difference goes. It certainly doesn't inspire confidence! Couple this with a bullshitting salesman who knew far less than I do and there's no WAY I'd buy a piano from them.

Off next week to see a couple of restorers who specialise in French pianos, to try some per-WWII Pleyels and Gaveaus. I'll let you know how it goes.

nick

Enjoyed hearing about your experiences and impressions. I know what you mean by the brashness of the Yamaha sound.

It's a disgrace the pianos weren't tuned or regulated. You're right that it is unreasonable to expect EVERY piano in a store to be prepped, but they should at least have MOST of them ready to play at any one time. Did you say anything to the dealer about the lack of prep, and if so, how did he respond? It might be eye-opening to him to realize that his store is losing sales because they don't bother to prep their pianos properly.

If you don't find anything promising elsewhere, you could always try calling the dealer back and tell him you want to try your short list of favorites again, but only if he'll get them prepped before you come out. It would be interesting to see if he would be willing to accommodate you in that way. If not...steer clear indeed.

In other words :this business owner appears to be a proverbial *piano pig*!

Did his washrooms work just as bad?? :rolleyes:

How dumb to let his otherwise fine pianos, arriving from factory in near perfect condition, deteriorate to the point of becoming almost 'unplayable'!

I certainly would love to have this guy as my next door competitor here.....

norbert

When will people learn?.....Germans have ALWAYS made the best machines in the world. Pianos are for all intents and purposes WOODEN machines. There should be no surprise that they surpass machines made by other cultures who have NO machine making history (Asians) or cultures with short machine making history (United States).Precision and craftsmanship is ingrained in the German (and yes Austrians are German....they just live in a different country) people. Asians are adept at immitation and economy....mass production of a reasonable facsimile at an economical price. Americans like to invent new things and then move on...we have very few long standing institutions or businesses. In ,dare I say ,most of the German/Austrian piano factories you will find HAND tools which have been handed down from one generation of piano craftsman to another.In Asia you will find huge factories full of shiny new POWER tools and machines which are being run by low wage workers who have no TRADITION of piano manufacture. This is why Lexus , Acura , and Infinity will always come in second to BMW , Audi , and Mercedes-Benz and why Yamaha , Kawai , Young Chang and the host of cookie cutter stencil brands pouring from the factories in Asia will always come in second to Bosendorfer , C.Bechstein , August Forster , Steingraeber , Bluthner.....the list goes on and on. In my opinion you can buy a PIANO or you can buy a REASONABLE FACSIMILE of a piano.

:3hearts:

Is that so. They didn't make the Estonia or the Fazioli or the Stuart pianos. They did not make the Rolls Royce, the Bentley and the Lamborghini. The fact is, many countries and cultures have produced wonderful machinery, be it wooden or not, and the Germans are definitely producers of many fine products, but not the only ones.
Ich spiele ganz gern mit dir, aber nur auf meimem wunderbaren Estonia!

Chat......I never said they had exclusivity of quality , however , the pianos you mention are better than the Asians but still second to the Germans. As for the autos you mentioned....BMW owns Rolls Royce and Porsche/VW/Audi owns Bentley and Lamborghini :p , all of which had serious reliability issues until the Germans acquired them. Your Estonia is a wonderful piano but my wife's August Forster is uber wunderbaren! . No , I am not german , nor do I have any german blood in my family and I only have a few german words or phrases in my vocabulary , something I hope to rectify soon!

Let's not get into the reliability issues of German-made autos, shall we? I love my Audi, but my Toyota never left me stranded and was a whole lot less expensive to maintain.

Suz, who owns a rather nice facsimile of a piano

German autos are made to cruise the autobahn at speeds in excess of 100 mph every day....and SURVIVE crashes at those speeds every day. America has poorly maintained roads which are brutal on precision machinery. German pianos are made to be passed down from generation to generation......used asian pianos in asia are practically worthless , they are made to be enjoyed by one owner for a limited time and then discarded for a new one.

I use the analogy of automobiles each and every day in my sales approach to selling pianos. Yes, we do sell the Acura (the Yamaha) and we sell the Lamborghini (the Fazioli) and the Mercedes/BMW (the Schimmel). Yes, they are all priced differently and I believe them to all PERFORM differently! We also share the list of where "the most desirable pianos in the world" come from (from Europe down to China). We also do not pretend to tell clients which pianos are "best" as this is totally personal preference!

The Yamaha pianos in our estimation offer a wonderful value for the amount of dollars spent. Will it be a "lifetime" piano which will be handed down for generations? Probably not! But that's alright! For thousands of consumers each year, the Yamaha brand satisfies tremendously! After all, not everyone can afford (or is willing to invest in) a Mercedes-Benz or a BMW. This is especially true for those purchasing a piano for their child in the early days of private piano lessons.

So, in my estimation, every piano manufactured has a consumer in mind, no matter the country of origon. The same can be said of automobiles manufactured. Not everyone can justify a high-end automobile, especially given the roads here in the states!

Finally, the point about Japanese pianos NOT being handed down to generations. In Japan, where the bulk of Yamaha and Kawai pianos sell, there is NO MARKET for "used" Japanese pianos! They are traded in after a number of years for new, replacement pianos. And because there is no market for "used", they are containerized and shipped to the North American market and sold as "gray market" pianos, which are primarily sold to dealers who are unable to obtain authorization to sell new Yamaha pianos.

So, I wouldn't categorize used Asian pianos as "practically worthless", as they are purchased by many here in North America.

In general, Europeans do build very fine products! And they have been for generations! But that does not mean that everyone has to run out and buy (or invest-in) a European product, be it a piano or an automobile! But they are very expensive for the most part and not affordable to the average consumer! Yes, they're better than most. But most of us have to settle for a product that will offer a solid investment but not "break the bank".

So, while some here may be passionate about what country builds the best products, they're not for everyone! I think I'll keep my Yamaha for a while longer, as it allows me to share the gift of music at home and afford to send toys and gifts to my grand children! And I'll race your BMW to Toys R Us in my supercharged Pontiac GTP!

Larry Fine puts Fazioli (and also the Americans Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin SF-10 and Steinway)in the same group as Bösendorfers and Blüthners, the Estonia is in the same group as Schimmel, Seiler and Sauter. AND Yamaha S and Shigeru Kawai. So Deutschland, Deutschland über Alles does not hold water anymore.
(And I bet you that I and my Estonia could play circles around you and August F. In German!)

When will people learn?.....Germans have ALWAYS made the best music in the world. In my opinion you can play music or you can play a REASONABLE FACSIMILE of music.

:rolleyes:

Good grief, Mr. Speil mit mir, are we just a little chauvanistic? You didn't happen to mention the price of these German pianos, did you? Do you think that might have something to do with their quality? Do you really think hand made is better than machine made? How many German cars are hand made? Would anyone want a hand-made car?

Do you really think the Japanese don't admire craftsmanship? Have you ever looked at Japanese art objects? The Japanese have an absolute passion for quality. Believe me, I know the hard way.

I'm really not trying to start an argument with you, but you ought to think about how biased and jingoistic your post seems.

We've all played some very nice concert grands made in New York, Arkansas, and Vienna.

Guess I should trade my old car (made in Tennessee) for a German-engineered Wartburg or Trabant.

I never played a German, Austrian, or Swiss (also could be considered German, as 2/3 of the population is of German extraction) piano that I like as much or is better made than my 1919 M and H.

Speil mit mir's post is too dismissive of pianos of "non-Germanic" origin and the people who buy them. IMHO, nothing wrong with Kawai, or Yamaha, or any number of less expensive brands.

Ever tried that great german piano, Zimmerman? :p

And I hope Baroque's comment about music, "When will people learn?.....Germans have ALWAYS made the best music in the world. In my opinion you can play music or you can play a REASONABLE FACSIMILE of music," was tongue-in-cheek.

Just one person's point of view... I too admire the Germans for their precision manufacturing. Without regard to country or origin, and over 30 years, I bought Leicas, BMWs and a Steinway (German heritage, more so than U.S.).

The Leicas and Steinways are hand made. They are also very expensive. They may not be the best value, especially if you don't have a lot of money, or if high quality is not what you seek for a camera, car or piano.

We all know the story of how the Japanese adopted U.S. quality standards to improve their image and their product (Deming, Juran..) and they did a great job. Porsche had to adopt some of these methods or go out of business.

So where does that leave us? The Germans do not have a lock on quality. They do as spiel said have some great hand skills. Balancing the quality and affordabilty has been a problem for Leica as it was for Porsche. Can we just leave it that the Germans make some wonderful instruments and not go into whose is best?

Now Mr. Baroque, my favorite composer is Richard Wagner (no, I'm not German at all); however we also had Bach, Beethoven, Mozart, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms and more, so the Germans & Austrians have certainly given us more great music than perhaps any other country. Loving opera as I do, the Italians are up there however you don't see much outside of opera.

It is amazing how people can be so defensive when you make a statement that while objectively true , seems to cast aspersions on a choice they have made. German manufacture is generally superior but NOT EXCLUSIVELY SUPERIOR. There is a place for the Yugos or Young Changs of this world , and there is nothing wrong with that. I take exception to those salespeople who claim and infer that their stencil piano is a fine quality instrument , and those buyers who think their sows ear is really a silk purse.Baroque's comment should not be tongue in cheek.......the best music ever written IS german. Beethoven , Mozart , Bach .........find me better. Roy , o great Massachussetts flaming liberal! (since you started the name calling in what was otherwise a sedate thread). You are just a socialist in disguise.....everyone and everything is equal....no one can have a natural advantage , and no product can be superior to another because gosh darn it that just wouldn't be fair. Handmade INSTRUMENTS are far better than machine made INSTRUMENTS. Manufacturing processes are necessarily different for AUTOMOBILES. ART is entirely different from MANUFACTURING. Please keep your falacious arguments to yourself. My post seems biased and jingoistic to you because the TRUTH is anathema to you and you are always looking for new ways to be offended. Ford and Toyota make nice cars...they are not in the same league as BMW and Mercedes. Yamaha and Kawai make nice pianos...they are not in the same league with Steingraeber and Grotrian. There is a place for every product but every product is not equal.(end of rant )

I would argue that the Shigeru Kawaiis are indeed in the league of German pianos, and that Lexus cars are indeed in the league of German cars. My problem with your post was because you said that Germans "always made the best machines in the world."

Proclaiming oneself the best is always a risky business. Had you said that Germany had a long tradition of making great machines, I would have had no argument with your statement. Someone proclaiming, "We're the best, we're the best!", always rubs me the wrong way.

BTW, I am not a liberal or a socialist. I abhor political correctness. My political views are moderate. Hey people from Massachusetts are always the best! (just joking ;-) )

I think Roy123 got the point of spiel mit mir's agenda.

Otherwise, look at his reactions:

quote:
the best music ever written IS german. Beethoven , Mozart , Bach .........find me better

Music quality is a subjective experience. Of course most would agree that the composers to which you refer are "great". However, they did not write my two "favorite" piano concertos. They did not compose my favorite violin concerto. They did not compose my favorite symphony. Also, when I listen to, or play music, I spend less time with these three than with others not mentioned. So, if you want "better" than German, I have given at least three examples IMHO. This takes nothing away from the quality of music of these three composers but, they did not write the "greatest" music in these three areas for my vote.
I write this to illustrate the point that "making a piano" and writing music does not have a lot in common. BTW, FYI I am a conservative and still find your statements slightly extreme. I also think Lexus is a better made vehicle than the German models mentioned. (Which also has nothing to do with pianos.) I hope you do not find my disagreements offensive. They were not intended to be so.

[QUOTE]Baroque's comment should not be tongue in cheek.......the best music ever written IS german. Beethoven , Mozart , Bach .........find me better.

I'll find you music that I LIKE better.

"The Best" when it comes to art is so entirely subjective that for any one person--or panel of experts, for that matter--to say what is best goes against the very nature of art.

Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms were great composers. To claim that they are "the best" is to narrow your scope of music to the point of exlusion of many, many great composers and musicians. Was Chopin not great? Prokofieff? Stravinsky? Debussy? Ravel? And this is just in the "serious" music genre.

By what yardstick do you measure "the best?" Though schooled in classical music, I prefer the spontanaeity and originality of jazz and other forms of improvisational music. Do you have a right to say that my opinion is invalid?

Spiel, your claim to know what is best is a claim to ultimate authority. Snobbery of this kind always undermines credibility.

"It is amazing how people can be so defensive when you make a statement that while objectively true , seems to cast aspersions on a choice they have made."

And how do you prove, OBJECTIVELY, that the statements you have made are true?

How do you PROVE OBJECTIVELY that German pianos are superior? Or German cars, or especially German MUSIC?????

I agree Germany makes many fine pianos. I myself would a C.Bechstein some day. But so does M&H, as Baldwin did and may again, as does Fazioli, Estonia, Shigeru Kawai, etc, etc. etc.

But I would disagree that German cars are better than Lexus, Acura, etc. My Acura RL could go toe-to-toe with any E320. The RL is better in some areas, the E320 in others. For one thing, maintenance. WHile maintenance and repairs on an E320 are expensive and more frequent, an Acura just keeps on ticking flawlessly.

Music? The BEST music is all German? Gee.. I guess then that Chopin, Rachmaninov, Debussey, and all those other guys are just amateurs. That may well be the most biased statement I have ever read on here.

I ain't buying your 'spiel'.

i played a ritmuller (pearl river, china) in april that i could have easily mistaken for a german piano. right out of the box. rather shocking. spending a month in germany playing many, many german-made piano did not change this opinion.

i'd rather own a toyota than a german car any day. my car never gives me a minute's trouble, and for the last few years the only money i've had to spend on it is oil changes and a new battery. it's 23 years old.

I must be lucky, my 1989 MB 190E has only had to have new tires, brakes, a battery, a few tune-ups,and a few fuses changed over the years. It has'nt cost me much in maintenance, and is still going strong. I'll stick with German precision.

Now, that's all good and well. But how many miles does it have on the odometer? I still drive my 1989 Lincoln Towncar with 177000 miles on it, and it runs beautifully. When you get that far with your Mercedes, let's talk.

Spiel: Your statement is "subjectively" true (in your particular opinion), but not "objectively" true. Your not knowing the difference is the problem here -- that and your dogmatic style is the reaon why you come across as misguided and naiive, and (justifiably) why you're getting so much pushback.

P.S. I own both German and Italian cars, and each is "better" in their own different ways. Hence neither can objectively be connsidered "best" in all ways. It's no different with pianos.

“Best music in the world”
-Clearly you are not an Artist or lover of! Those of us who are, don’t see the need to create a competition….a silly concept, and not that of an educated person.

“No , I am not german , nor do I have any german blood in my family and I only have a few german words or phrases in my vocabulary , something I hope to rectify soon!”
-Learning the language of other cultures is a good idea, but your motivation seems more than a little childish.

I don’t know if comments like yours make me more upset, or embarrassed.

Again you miss my point........I am speaking in general....the BODY of German music compared to any other culture......the BODY of german pianos compared to any other culture....the BODY of german automobiles compared to any other culture. Exceptions can and will be found and are hereby stipulated , but when looking at combined history rather than singular occurrences my statements are true. Pedro....your last statement is offensive in the extreme , I have no german ancestry whatsoever. I am simply making an observation based on historical facts. The german people should not be smeared with the brush created by one segment of one generation in their history.I proclaimed THEM the best...not WE as I have no affiliation with them.

ChatNoir, it's currenly at 197,662.

Spiel mit mir - you are going from offensive to silly. Your brand of remedial analysis is better left in High School. Rather than make uninformed comments and meaningless generalizations, read and learn from some of other people's posts...there are many insightful lovers of music here.