Spiel, you just don't get it, do you? You keep digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole. By this time, most reasonable people would have admitted defeat and gone home -- that is, the very, very few reasonable people who would have made such a ridiculous comment in the first place!

Alright! I have to admit it, I have a German piano made by a German piano company. Yep it's the Vogel by Schimmel. A very fine instrument indeed, and yes it does meet the quality standards set forth by the original German company.

Yet, I also played on, and liked very much, the Estonia, definitely the Mason & Hamlin, a Petrof once, a Steinert from 1910, a 1900 Baldwin, and an 1826 Clementi square, and many Steinways, Chickerings, and others.

So what's the point? Any piano that is made by caring piano-craftsman, can have the quality and precision that the German pianos have. I'm saying that with 25% German blood.

As far cars, well I'll definitely stick with my Toyota over the Audi I owned. Sheesh - not only expensive to maintain, but difficult to repair even for an Audi dealer. Let's see... at 69k miles a mandatory water pump and timing belt replacement for $1600. This doesn't include the replacment ignition switch for $369, and other problems including an intermittent electrical problem that I traded with the car. My 2000 Celica has well passed the 69k mark and all I've had to do recently is replace the tires, and change the oil regularly.

Sweeping generalizations do more harm then good, and lead to a slippery slope while trying to defend them.

John

Cars: Toyota, Nissan, Honda, & Mitsubuishi have been very good to us. Basic, reliable, affordable transportation with pretty good fuel economy.

Pianos: My Kawai upright was OK. No complaints. But it could never approach the performance of an equivalent sized Bechstein, Grotrian, Bluethner or Bosendorfer. The top-tier European pianos are simply in a different performance class. Traditional craftsmanship plays a large role as does subtle design improvements over a long period of time. It's a "quality rather quantity" approach to piano building that enables them to produce piano of this caliber.

That's not to say other regions cannot build fine pianos. They can and do -- S-series Yamahas, Shigeru Kawais, and a few others. However, Europe is still where a buyer has to look to find most of the best piano makers.

JP

Vogel is made by Schimmel in its manufacturing facility in Poland, and yes, it's made by a German firm. Usually when people here "German piano," they think "made in Germany," so I think we should be careful with our terminology. Furthermore, the Polish people have built a fine product and deserve their share of the credit too!

the chinese now use many of the same techniques and equipment/machinery to build pianos that the germans do.

i'm not a fan of chinese pianos in general, but i have seen an exponential improvement in their products over the past five years.

germany is also changing. they have very high unemployment today, wages are being cut at some factories, german piano stores are selling more asian pianos, german makers are using asian resources, asian makers are using german resources (talent, design, materials, parts, craftsmanship).

My Astra has 333,840 km.I've changed only what I break myself (bytheway it's German or American ? )

I've sung for 20 Years,from Palestrina to Nono. (was Bach the guy copying Italian music for learning ?)

I had a client very unhappy with her old Petrof upright.My advise was (it still is) to go into a reliable shop, see and hear the pianos, WITHOUT locking at the brand name and buy what she like.I've warned her that will be a bit expensive :she liked the German sound (if such a think exists....)

She finally bought an Yamaha.....

P.S. if I would had the money to buy the grand of my dreams,it would be a German made.But that means nothing : it's subjective

:p

Yes I know that. It was an oversight on my part. I realized it after I went to bed and it was too late to edit my post.

But... Yes indeed the Polish people did build a very fine instrument that anyone who purchases one would be proud to own. This proves the point even more that everyone else made in this post.

John

Reliability of any one product is only one part of the equation.

The *Wolga*, a crammed previously East German car, was known for its *reliability* but it was a car few here would choose to drive today.

In this discussion, lets not forget we are talking about totally different cultures with equally different histories of its people, and different perspectives and ideals emerging often as 'trademarks' as a result of it.

A cup of coffee in Tokyo will always taste different than a cup of Coffee in Vienna, this aside from Starbucks.....

Everytime I return to Europe, I find that certain things are unique there, some better, some worse.

Let's all enjoy the diversity of the human spirit and the outcrops in its variable culture, art and yes - manufacturing ideals!

Meantime, everyone adore and/or buy the piano that suits him/her best![/b]

norbert

I have 561,000 miles on my VW Golf --which I drive to afford my Bechstein Grand

Brilliant advice.

Thank you, Alex!

Hope you had a good trip to Germany!

Anything new?

norbert

Thanks Norbert I did have a good trip to Germany.

I stopped off in Leipzig to see all of my old and new Blüthner friends. I also spent time in Bayreuth experiencing Udo Steingraebers hospitality with my good friends from Pianocraft.

I played four E272's and one 168 (that was my dream piano).
:3hearts:

Bayreuth is a magical place, unique and perfect IMHO.

Norbert, I did not announce my trip so of course I am curious as to how you knew about it? This along with your knowledge of my unannounced Austin trip makes me think my office may be bugged!

I also played a very beautiful Hamburg D at Steingraeber Haus, Ahhh piano heaven.

Well, that was certainly an "interesting" thread I started

The question is... do I dare give my comments on the French pianos I'm going to try...

nick

Not to add fuel to the flames, but I too am an admirer of German machinery. The best in the world? Yes, BUT...

It depends. (Below comments are on cars, something I pretend to know a *little* about - I'm not qualified to discuss the relative merits of German Vs. anyone else's pianos!)

It depends on what your definition of "Quality" is. Japanese quality means you won't have any problems with "it" for the life of the product. Said lifetime may be long, but definately finite. A Lexus (Rebadged Toyota) may go 200K or even 300K miles, but then it is done. The engineering is done so well that it essentially all wears out at the same time.

German and American quality follow a different model (traditionally). I've driven Mercedes-Benz Diesels all my life. The one I currently have is 20 years old - and I expect to have it for at least another 20. I'm working on it all the time, yet it was MADE to be worked on. I can literally keep it going for the rest of my life if I choose. Will I save money by doing so? Maybe, maybe not. I can choose the "throw away" model of the Japanese (that the Americans have switched to, and the Germans are starting to switch to) and buy a new car every 10-15 years, or the German model where I can keep the car forever.

Its a matter of preference.

I don't put a lot of credence in JD Powers "Initial Quality" ratings because I want to know how the car does 20 years down the road. The Lexus is in the junkyard, the Mercedes is still on the road. This said, Mercedes has lost its direction thanx to their current chairman who, thank Goddess, has just announced he is stepping down. YAY! Its pretty bad when a Toyota looks more like a Mercedes than a Mercedes does!

My wife and I also own a VW Passat TDI. Wonderful engine/drivetrain (for a FWD car), but have had nothing but problems with the American market gadgets we're forced to buy in this country. (Never make the mistake of equating VW/Audi with Mercedes or BMW) Indeeed, said gadgetry has largely been the downfall of Mercedes-Benz. The Japanese gadgets work for the life of the car. I wish I could get a higher end car (Mercedes or otherwise) without all this junk, but - there you have it!

thank you Norbert for saying it :

Let's all enjoy the diversity of the human spirit [/b]

untill we can do that, we're not totally lost!

Norbert... good advice!

Alex:

I'm glad you had a good trip, I never made it to Leibzig myself!

P.S. You could never go to Germany and people *not* knowing right away.

An *early warning system* makes everybody there stock up on the very best food and drink in town.

They love big people coming from the U.S. with big cheques in tow.....

norbert

If making things that last forever is such a good model, why mother nature does not adopt it? At some point, things including all living organisms need to retire and die. Is anyone here still using a made in Germany black and white Blaupunkt TV? It is actually more important to engineer a product that works flawlessly during its destinated lifetime than to engineer a product that lasts a lifetime. After all, nothing lasts forever. Mother nature won't allow it.

Norbert I'm afraid I dissapointed them if that's the case.
You're a tough act to follow, it seems big people from Canada have bigger checks these days.

P.S. I always enjoy your classy post Norbert.

Thanks Alex, have a great season!

norbert

True enough! All I ask is that it last MY lifetime or a little more! Don't wanna spend the money more than once...

The TV sounds interesting. Don't have one, but do have a 1937 RCA console radio!

Come on! Don't be so pessimistic! The future is always brighter.

RCA? Do you mean the stencil brand that OEMs asian electronics?

Zormpas wrote: Sorry for hijacking this thread, but a German car sounds almost like music, so it may be considered a musical instrument, maybe, to make it half on topic?

Anyway, which gadgets are you talking about? I sell Audi and am often confronted by customers who want gadgets that they have seen in Japanese cars but can't find in German cars (and even less in Audis). I like to think of Audi as the brand that doesn't do gadgets. They do functional, ergonomic design in excellent fit and finish, that's their hallmark. The fact that they outsell BMW and have outsold Mercedes the first time in history in Germany, at similar prices, tells a story of how they are positioned and perceived in the market there.

Mentioning VW and Audi in one sentence other than in the context of VW owning Audi is blasphemy. Or do you want to liken a VW to a Lamborgini as well? Same closeness or distance, whichever way you want to look at it.
You called Lexus a re-badged Toyota. That is true to a certain degree but even I would not go that far to claim that. But no doubt is there a much closer resemblance between a Lexus and a Toyota than there is between a VW and an Audi. Separate engineering, separate R&D, dedicated production facilities hundreds of miles apart.

That said, the Passat is the best quality VW offers in the USA. Jetta, Golf, and New Beetle are built in central or south America, the Touareg is assembled in Hungary. Wait, the old Jetta wagon was built in Germany as well. Tangibly better quality than the Mexican-built sedan.


Older M-B models could claim to be the best quality German-made cars. That claim is currently attributed to Audi. Things have been different in the past and can change in the future, but that's how the present looks like.

Audi/M-B, any year, reliable? Geez, someone should inform the readers of Consumer Reports.

Of the 3 Audi's in CR's vehicle reliability survey, model years 1996 - 2003, Audi managed to rack up a total of 11 overall "below average" reliability ratings and only 7 overall "average" ratings.

Compare that to M-B with 6 cars surveyed (same model years). 13 overall "below average" ratings. 16 overall "average" ratings and 3 overall "above average". M-B, with twice as many cars surveyed, only managed to garner 2 additional black marks. Audi isn't looking very reliable so far.

Now compare M-B and Audi to BMW with 5 cars surveyed. 6 overall "below average" ratings, 11 overall "average" and 12 overall "above average" ratings. Compared to BMW, one should never use the word "reliable" in the same sentence with "Audi" and "M-B". Compared with M-B, the words "reliable" and "Audi" should not be mixed.

For 2004, the J.D.Power Initial Quality Survey (of absolutely no value IMO), ranked Audi at 22. One notch above M-B and one notch below BMW.

Compared to the reliability of the Japanese, all 3 Germans do pretty ****-poor and should be ashamed of themselves.

Now back to discussing pianos.

Derick

"Now back to discussing pianos."

No, not yet.

"Audi, any year, reliable? Geez, someone should inform the readers of Consumer Reports."

Last time I checked CR, I saw Audi having a best buy recommendation. Someone should inform you, Derick.

Yes, Japanese cars are totally reliable. And absolutely boring.

Over and OUT

"Reliability" in most cases is a well-defined quantitative measure.

"Boring" is simply (the lack of) a rather subjective romantic notion that is merely in the eyes of the beholders.

I suppose different personalities would value one over the other.

Ain't that the truth! And ain't that just as true for pianos. And watches. And clothes. And pasta, canned food and bread. And everything else that we spend money on.

I'm darn glad my minivan is a boring old 1992 Toyota Previa. It has had one engine repair in all those twelve years (an alternator). On the other hand, I'm about to move up from a 33 year old Kawai (which still works beautifully ...so much for Japanese pianos self-destructing) to a German piano. As Axtremus said, reliability is measurable. People want more reliability in certain things and more pizzazz in others. Some want pizzazz in their cars and buy Firebirds or Hummers. Let them (and I hope they enjoy paying $3.50 per gallon). Some (like me) are at a point in our lives when we can trade up from reliability with decent quality (my old kawai) to reliability (hopefully) and profound quality (the Grotrian).

On the other hand, I would never rationalize or justify my purchase of a German piano by spinning some pseudo-psychological babble about innate cultural superiority of German engineering (or music).

David F

Consumer reports, JD powers, et al are to a certain degree meaningless - especially the former. I've never quite grokked CR's evaluation criteria. They'll go on, and on, and on, about silly things like "this model doesn't have a rear window defogger timer"; like WHO CARES...

Yea, initial quality is important, but not nearly as important as what the car does 20 years down the road - and that's something NO-ONE can tell, only guess at. The best measure is to take a stroll through the local junkyard. Re-badged Toyotas (Lexus), and other Japanese makes start showing up at the 10-15 year mark, VW/Audi at at 15-20 years, BMW early 20's, MBZ 25 to 30.

Which is really nice, but doesn't give us a lot of info about TODAY'S models.

Gadgets? You name it. I want a nice, solid automobile with a reliable drivetrain. I'd prefer a manual transmission, and at this particular point in time, a diesel engine (diesel-electric hybrid?). I want a comfortable seat with good lumbar support - manual adjust please. I most emphatically DO NOT want leather which is even worse than vinyl. I don't really want power windows and doorlocks, remote "keyless" entry or other junk like that. I *do* want air conditioning, and cruise control - won't have a car without. Would like to have Xenon lighting. Would like to have a sunroof (metal please) - power here is OK as hand cranked sunroofs are extremely awkward. Oh, and I'd REALLY prefer the car be RWD, big enough to be comfortable and safe, but not SUV huge. Add a rear window defogger and a decent CD player and I'm set!

You cannot buy a car like this in the United States.

Oh, and a power adjustable passenger side rear view mirror - manual adjust on the driver's side is OK.

Rear wheel drive? Couldn't get it out of the alley in winter.

Consumer Reports doesn't have nice things to say about VW reliability. JD Powers has slammed the initial quality. (Aren't they still number seven out of the seven major manufacturers in the world?) And in real life: a colleague has a Jetta with legions of problems. For example, one day the brake light come on and the brake pedal felt funny, then the misbehavior went away. He said strange stuff like that is happening all the time to the car and he intends to sell it before the warranty expires.

I'm reminded of the caller to "Car Talk" who stated that he had owned six Jettas. The first thing of out of Tom or Ray's mouth: "You didn't mind the cracked windshields and smoking engines?" The mechanics obviously know.

Around here, with the exception of GM, it is rare to see anything older than twenty years. The rust is a real killer in Chicago. The old cars with body on frame construction have half a chance against the salt.

Reliability or excitement? The business magazines were indicating that Mercedes intends to reduce the amount of cutting-edge gadgetry in the cars--an attempt to improve the reliability.

Anyone out there actually like the "I-Drive" system? When I want air conditioning in my car I just push a button. There is no need to pull over and get out the owner's manual! :rolleyes: