I would like to suggest a forum for Beginners ONLY. I have noticed that there are a lot of teachers posting on the ABF forum. They are often condesending and critical. While, constructive criticism is always useful..... It would be very easy to visit the Teachers forum for these professional opinions. (Or should I say professional teacher debates?)

It would be very nice to have an open conversation on the forum with my fellow adult beginners without enduring the never ending rants of one professional teacher to another professional teacher.

Yeah, part of the reason I moved a lot of my posts to the PC is because I didn't feel at home as I usually do here. Lately this place hasn't been the same.

The great thing about a forum is people from all aspects of piano contribute. Although you may want just a beginngers forum, I hope my posts are helpful and I can continue to post here (I am neither an adult or at the "beginning levels" of piano). I would hate not to be able to post here....

Matt

Well, I'm not totally a beginner. But, I previously felt at home on the ABF forum. I definitely am adult and I definitely am not a concert pianist. (And have no desire to become one).

I believe there are a lot of folks just like me.

I just hate that recently the ABF has become a place for page after page of technique debate between teachers (edited to say: and accomplished pianists).

Perhaps my idea is not the best... But, if enough people indicate what they do want in our forum.... we will see an alternative. Maybe?

Maybe just have the mods enforce the topic? It is, after all, a Beginner's forum already. It is just being hijacked.

The basis for this criticism comes as a surprise to me. I peruse ABF regularly, and hadn't noticed anything amiss or even noticeably different. Where are these "never ending rants" and "page after page of technique debates" amongst teachers?

I'm not denying what the OP says; I just haven't seen it.

Steven

You haven't seen it? May I refer you to your next to last post as a first reference?

http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/2/19891.html#000011

The new member asked a simple question and received one positive answer followed by insults that led to an additional page of totally unrelated dribble.

Yes sir.... that was a great way to welcome a new member. No doubt, a lasting first (and last?) impression.

Perhaps Horowitzian has the best idea. Perhaps the moderator simply needs to stop accomplished players (and teachers) from insulting remarks toward newbies.

Especially those who have asked honest questions, expecting useful answers.

Edited to add: I respect talent and skill and those who share it wisely, we simply need to see more of that.

How is your answer responsive to my comment and request for clarification about your original complaint, which seems suddenly to have broadened?

• Whatever you thought of the direction that thread took, it took that direction long before the post of mine that you linked to—my first and only contribution there.
• Once a satisfactory answer, which is sometimes the only answer, has been provided to an OP's inquiry, a discussion thread quite naturally does drift.
• More than one answer was in fact provided to the OP, so why would he care if others talk amongst themselves afterwards? It doesn't appear that any fun was being had at his expense, does it?
• That thread was in the Pianist Corner, not the ABF—so what does it have to do with your original complaint?

It appears that you have problems with much more than just teachers ranting and debating inter se in the ABF, something of which you still haven't offered an iota of evidence. I find it difficult to understand what your real issue is.

Steven

That particular "never-ending rant" that you cite does not appear to be among teachers.

In their profiles, none of the posters refer to themselves as a piano teacher. Here is their info from their profiles:

-Fleeting Visions: "Amateur Pianist"

- Mark H: "PhD Candidate

-Dsch: No reference to occupation

- Whippen Boy: "Professional Organist & Pianist" (the only pro, but not a teacher)

- Loki: "Student"

- Playaden: "Math Student"

- Bruce D: "Retired French Teacher"

Yes, it certainly got off-topic, and was not at all helpful or welcoming to the OP, but why blame teachers for it when no teacher responded?

Rocket88. No it is not just teachers. And I think that you can easily see that I added accomplished players in my second post (for clarification) prior to your answer. AND....Yes, you are one of the very people capable of taking a rant to endless places.

And Sotto Voice I did not imply that you had taken it away from the subject.... simply that it had gone. And that you had (as you stated) apparently missed it.

Only one of the "ranters" listed in my post is an "accomplished player" (Whippen Boy). The rest, from their self-descriptions, are neither teacher or accomplished player.

The Adult Beginner Forum works for me - I feel that input from teachers and accomplished pianist is helpful and I enjoy the give and take.

All of us want to help and encourage each other and have something to offer.

Sometimes things get off the mark, at times it adds a little interest - you can always go on to the next post - guess I feel if it ain't broke don't fix it. The Adult Beginners Forum has helped keep me going.

I think I'm understanding your issues more clearly now after all.

Steven

This topic comes up from time to time, as does possibly renaming the ABF, since one figures out fairly quickly if one reads/posts there that not everyone is strictly a beginner, whatever *beginner* means.

In fact, defining Beginner doesn't seem to be a possible task.

The Important Topics thread that's pinned at the top of the ABF sums up the many discussions about this.

For me, the ABF is by far the most round-robin, collaborative, cooperative, and community-minded forum of PW, and it's why I fit there. The Pianists Corner, as its definition says, is for classical music, which I don't play. The non-classical forum hasn't really taken off, and tends to have only more narrow topics than the ABF. The ABF, because of the efforts of many of its original members, is a highly creative forum, and has developed many ways of interacting as pianists, as well as just folks, for the people who post there.

I think it's the collaborative/cooperative nature of the forum that is sometimes misunderstood by newbie posters. It was set up, from my understanding, as a place where beginners could share experiences and questions, and as such the input from all levels of experience was valued, and *this is the only way* statements were kind of not part of the culture. Encouragement for and input from folks playing piano who are taking formal lessons, learning from on-line courses, teaching themselves from method books, returning to playing after lessons as a kid, is *all* valued. For me, the essence of the ABF is that there isn't only one way of doing things, and that adults bring much from their life-experiences to playing piano that's valuable, and they have many many different reasons/goals for playing, all of which are valid.

So for practical reasons I think a "beginners only" is problematic (I've been playing, after a 30-year hiatus, since 1995 - am I a beginner?). And, for cultural reasons (communities, as *I* see the ABF being, will always have folks with whom I disagree, but I prefer communities) I like the ABF as a collaborative, cooperative, inclusive of many kinds of pianists and their many kinds of journeys place. I don't see a way to exclude anyone that will keep it that kind of place. I think the community as a whole has to keep it that way.

But it's good to sometimes revisit the discussion, so the issues and values are aired.

Cathy

I am with you on that one, I feel that the input from the teachers and more experienced people is welcome for me. I find the whole ABF very positive for me, I can always ignore it when it goes way off base, when it does digress it is normally way above my head anyway
I do enjoy the thoughts from all the levels that frequent the forum, however, if the only responses was from beginners like myself wouldn't it be kind of like the blind leading the blind

Thanks Cathy, your thoughts on what the ABF means to you were border line poetry. I expect you have captured the essence of what the founders of PW intended for this area of the forum.

I would not have any reason to search for a more perfect forum if everyone viewed and participated as you have so graciously written.

Yes, I agreed in a previous post that it would most likely be wrong to prohibit anyone from posting here....... Perhaps there is a better answer, and we can look for it together.


A positive exchange of ideas makes for a wonderful place to post.

Well, FWIW, I also have found the temperment of the forum changing and becoming less friendly. The old debate on just how or what or who always comes up, but the fact is those of us who consider ourselves "permanent beginners" are finding it less fun to visit.

I just spent 2 weeks away from the internet and I am a little behind at the moment, but I understand what ID says, and the fact this subject comes up all the time says something as well.

I don't know the answer, but I can say if it does not change, I may join the many who find it unplesant to visit.

I love this place. It is my support group. It is becoming a chore to "avoid the experts", and being very careful in what you say for fear of being torn down (just look at this thread for an example).

Maybe this time, we can come together and either fix it (from my point of view I agree) or give us a place we can meet and visit with each other without the personal attacks some see as their mission in life (or so it seems to me)....

So am I "allowed" here? With about 18 years of musical experience on various instruments, after 60 years away from the piano (really) I'm back, certainly not a beginner in a strict sense, but a "beginning againer". Probably intermediate level in my playing, so do I "qualify" as someone who belongs here? If in the opinion of a significant number of "Pure" beginners I don't then I won't hang around. Don't want to offend anuone, and I do understand the concern originally voiced.

These forums are so segregated. Where do I fit? I am a student of voice and piano

Late intermediate with piano and advanced with voice. Pianist corner? Sometimes ... Teacher's forum ...? Don't teach but I like to ask for their perceptions and give mine ... sometimes ... AB? ... No ... its a public forum maybe you can tell the teachers to stop sounding so patronizing!

Ah, Bart, you have stated the problem. Many of us are at different levels and not true beginners in the sense of the word. I have years of guitar behind me. I have been studing piano for a little over three years, off and on. The various levels each of us bring make the forum what it is.

So, I say everyone is welcome, and everyone's input is valuable. But (there's always a but, huh?), when the input equals an attack on beliefs or patterns, the line is crossed. When someone posts a question "what do you do?", every answer is true. It's what you do. If everyone would give their answers it this vein, no problem. It's when the self-proclaimed experts say "that's stupid" or "never do that" or "..." that's when the problem comes up. It is not necessary or desired to openly attack what the poster has to say. They are merely stating what they do to get beyond the problem at hand. I have found that I have changed "what I do" after reading everyone's responses, but that's my choice, and IMHO, the very reason I read the threads.

I rarely go to the other forums here, or anywhere else for that matter, because it is friendly and open to ideas. That is what is changing and turning the forum into something just like all the others I avoid.

I am not trying to change the world, just trying to keep our meeting place fun and enjoyable....

I'm with GMM1 on this one.

The forum atmosphere has changed quite a bit. It used to be where the dribble, insults, patronization, attacks, diatribes was the exception but now it's become all too common and tolerated.

I don't have the answer either. I guess we should just all step back and try to be aware that these are real people with real feelings. I mean honestly would we go about things in this manner if we were face to face with that person? Probably not because someone is liable to take the discussion to fisty cuffs when tempers get heated.

I personally welcome tons of input when I ask a question.

Ultimately I'm the one who decides which is valuable to me and which is fluff but it does get to be a pain when you have to sift through your original post to get 1 or 2 good answers or answers that even pertain to the original question.

Sometimes I wonder "God why is this person so patronizing or short". I personally attribute it to that persons personality as being angry or bitter and just wonder why in the world would he or she bother if they're so bitter and angry. I try not to take it personally but sometimes you just want to reach out and slap someone.

I don't think another forum is the answer. I think self awareness on what we post, how we post it is what we should strive for.

There's so much talent here, and good advice. Now if we could learn to be polite, respectful and show that we are truly adults, I think we can get this forum back on track.

Attacking someone personally because of their religious beliefs is just as bad as attacking someone for their sexual orientation. Let's leave the cheap shots out completely for one. This is just an example there are many cheap shots to be had I'm sure.

Peace and Love to Everyone btw. Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas and have a great New Year.

[/b]

Good point OG.... I sometimes wonder how many people do not post a reply after seeing/reading the thread. Seems two or three answers to the OP, then the arguments start, and then fewer and fewer responses to the OP until the thread dies .....

I would have to agree with Ivory. Like so many others, I am a mature adult that took lessons as a kid and returned to piano in later life. Neither the PC or ABF quite fits the bill for me.

It seems the PC has become dominated by piano students, advanced players and pros, who are busily comparing notes on playing the likes of Scarbo, and passing judgement on current concert pianists.

The ABF has a Chopin Etudes thread! Now there is some beginner stuff! Alternatively, I don't want to wade through threads on Piano Magic,Alfred Books, or "I am having trouble playing hands together", "Am I too old to start?" etc....

I think that there are a great many of us who are not beginners, but don't really consider ourselves "pianists"...in the professional sense (accompaning, playing in malls,in a band, etc.), but more like piano hobbiests.

When day is done we just want to pour ourselves a glass of wine, and sit down to play something nice or work on our new piece.

Maybe a "Retread Forum"

No aspirations of the concert stage
No upcoming auditions
No need for beginner instruction either.

Just my 2 cents.

Hi Stanza. I like your 2 cents worth.

Would you consider adding one more line item to your ideal forum description? Perhaps it would also read...

No negative comments, or condescending opinions.
Only positive Posts offering encouragement and nurturing advice.

If we had a true "beginners only" forum most of us would not be able to post here. I think it should be called the "amateur" forum. I also think that for the most part the forum is very well moderated. Moderators of course cannot stop "condescending opinions" but that's the price we pay for being on a public forum. There are a lot of personalities out there and we may not like them all. I think that if someone really bothers us we should just try and avoid or ignore them. All the great people here imo make up for the few pain-in-the-butts.

Surely the very nature of 'beginner' means in-need-of-help? That is especially true when it comes down to piano playing. I'm sure beginners have plenty to share (I was an adult beginner myself once), but a forum restricted solely to beginners sounds a bit Lord of the Flies to me. Besides moving over to other forums later would be so intimidating. Best get the shock and awe over with asap.

Oh I don't know, I'm a beginner and I'm not sure I would describe the nature of my state as "in-need-of-help".

As for the OP, there are mostly nice folks here, but also some not so nice folks who sometimes have less than friendly exchanges. I'd prefer to see less of that.

Surely even more needy in the case of those who can't see it!

I agree with Payton on this. There are some beginning piano students that have one or two bad experiences with a criticism. I like to approach it from an evaluation point of view (i.e the sandwich effect). I offer what I like, what you can do a little better, then add on what I like even more. The idea is to encourage the novice musician to stay on the journey (and I know it can be very difficult at times) and to endure.

- Mark