Name the key of the following fragment. Transpose it up a major third.

Key: Bminor

Key (after moving up a major third) ____


I put it as D# minor, but Im horrile when its from minor key to minor key.

Since there is no key as D# Major, you would call it E flat major (3 flats).

I understand that KeysOnTheCeiling is transposing from minor to minor, not to major, and while D# major does not exist, D# minor does.

If it were into major there would be a problem with someone marking the answer on the paper, because technically, a transposition from D minor to Eb major is not a major third but a diminished fourth. Even though it is the same enharmonically and makes sense in the real world, it wouldn't be accepted in the theoretical world, at least not over here in RCM-land. Am I mistaken?

Right (at least I think).

yes, I am transposing MINOR KEYS by a MAJOR THIRD.

So am I right?

to transpose everything up from B minor, by a major third would be D# minor, using the keysignature of F# major.

(FCGDAE)

Or Eb minor, using key sig of Gb major

(BEADGC) So either way it's a lot of sharps/ flats in the key signature.

Yay I win

Thanks for the help.

Yes. As long as you named the original key correctly in the first part of the question (it has two sharps?)

I was thinking about this:
It's confusing because you have to think about two different things: the tonic, and then the key signature which is that of the relative major. But if you think of the two parts separately it should be just as easy a transposing major keys.

B is the tonic of B minor. You want the tonic of a minor which is a major third up from B, and three whole tones up from B is D#, so that's your tonic, and it's D# minor.

Now you want your key signature of D# minor. It's the relative major which is F# major. Or if you don't know that you count up a minor third from D# which is F# or 6 sharps.

Or for the key signature you could just go from the relative major. Your first key signature is 2 sharps or D major. Your new key signature has to be raised by a major third: a major third above D is F#, so you get your key signature of F# major with 6 sharps that way. Does anyone do the second way?

I have a question. Enharmonically D# and Eb are the same tone on the piano and fretted instruments. But would a transposition from B minor to Eb minor be considered a major third? Wouldn't you have to call it a transposition raising the note by a diminished fourth?

If you're composing you would chose Eb minor because it has less accidentals. But if you were doing theory homework and you were being graded, I think they would mark Eb minor as incorrect becuase technically speaking it's a dim. 4th - or would they not?

You're right, but whether or not it would be marked incorrect would depend on the context of the question. For example, if the emphasis was on preparing a transposed copy for a pianist to play, then the enharmonic issue would probably not matter. In an exam situation I would definitely go for D#minor , for the reasons you mention.

Incidentally, both D#minor and Ebminor have the same number of sharps/flats - 6 - so it would be a matter of preference as to which you'd use when composing, not an issue of "fewer accidentals". We had a long discussion somewhere a while back over whether people preferred flat or sharp keys to play in. Personally, I love 'em all!

Oops, you caught me! I didn't check my answer before posting. :rolleyes:

I've noticed that for many winds instruments the key signature tends to have flats, while string instruments favour sharps. On piano it doesn't really matter, I suppose. Currently I still think more easily in sharps than flats for some reason.

Your answer seems to be correct. However, as the key of D# minor is not common I would seriously check that you are in B minor to begin with.

2 sharps, passage starts on B, and A is raised

Definitely B minor.

I've slogged through RCM material. It seems that things are set forth that would not occur often in real life, simply in order to exercise the brain in order to become thoroughly familiar. But I've been told a couple of times as I worked on various problems that "You never end up doing this in real composition."

The same holds true in practical work. In violin fingerings are sometimes put into pieces which are difficult, for the sake of becoming capable of handling such difficult fingerings and explore regions of the fingerboard and such. However this was criticized on the premise that it violates the principle of always finding the most convenient and practical solution, and as such came close to teaching a bad habit.

If other systems are set up along similar lines (RCM, ABRSM etc.) then it is possible that implausible scenarios have to be solved by us students, such as this D# minor, so that we get to stick in lots of sharps and flats, so that we become capable of wending our way through lots of sharps and flats.

The answer is, and can only be, D# minor.

D# is the only note a major third above B. Eb is technically a diminished fourth.

And while D# minor isn't all that common, it is used. (For example, the Eb minor prelude in the Well-Tempered Clavier is paired with a D# minor fugue, and the famous Op. 8 Scriabin sonata is in D# minor.)

Also, the fact that the distance is a major third doesn't change the excerpt from minor to major. It's just a distance measurement.

I should note that there is a type of transposition that would change the mode - a diatonic transposition. But that would entail taking a passage simply "up a third" or "down a fourth." You move the notes up/down on the staff but keep the same key signature - a b minor scale transposed diatonically up a third would be a D Major scale. (This is how transposition works in Finale and Sibelius - you have to specify diatonic or chromatic.)

Kreisler, would you care to expound, if such a thing exists, on the reasonableness or practical sense of making a distinction between transposing:
major third, diminished fourth, a doubly augmented second .... all which, enharmonically "as heard on the piano" would give us the same general pitch? Other than the difference in tone between D# and Eb, is it a case of being pedantic or is there something more to it?

Well I got it right, but could someone explain to me what to do to do it?

What I do now is,

Since its BMINOR, I take it as BMAJOR. a major 3rd from BMAJOR is D#.

So a major 3rd from BMINOR is D#MINOR.

At first I thought "what....?" then I began to follow your reasoning . You're saying that the way you find a major 3rd is to take notes 1-3 of the major scale (which is why you have to translate the original B minor into B major to go any further).

OK - so far so good. Now what's the question? By "what to do to do it" do you mean:
what is another method of getting that answer - or even, what is the "right" method of getting that answer?
If this is what you mean, I think your method is sound enough. You're identifying what a major 3rd is by reference to the major scale. Some people would find that an unnecessary step, but that doesn't make it a wrong method.

Now, have you got a method for when they say "transpose DOWN a major third"?

Suggestions:
- practise locating intervals up or down
- know that a major 3rd is 4 semitones (half-steps), or 2 tones (whole steps). Then it's easy to count up or down, without having to think of which key it's no.3 of, if you follow my take on your method .

I think it's easiest if you do it in two steps, and for the first step leave out any consideration of major or minor and work with the note by itself. That note is the tonic, and you want to find a new tonic.

Your first tonic B. What note is a major third above B? Answer: D#. So your new tonic is D#.

Second step: Find your key. Answer: D# minor. Now find the key signature for that: It's the relative major of D# minor.

So you're working in two steps. In the first step you're only concerned with one note in the raw: the tonic. In the second step you start worrying about key and key signature.

You probably know very well how to bring a single note up and down by any given interval. You do the same thing, but add a key and key signature to it.

(I have a feeling that what is throwing you is the fact that you have a minor key, and in minor keys you already have an extra step since the key signature is derived from its relative major)

Yes, I think that's easiest, too. I was trying to get inside KOTC's mind to see why he/she was using this method. If there's no trouble with finding a major 3rd up or down, then there's no need for that extra step he/she used.

Hey, keystring - do you ever sleep? No matter what time of day/night I pop in here for a look, you're beavering away answering questions .

I do sleep. But in my line of work I get customers in any time zone so if I happen to be awake, or wake up, I check for messages. The freelance translationg world is time-driven and if you don't grab and accept a job offer immediately it's gone.

I may have an advantage in getting inside KOTC's mind because I studied all my theory last year starting last spring so this is all still fresh memory. Transposing minor keys can seem overwhelming because you are already working with two things - the relative major and minor. I realized that last year, and decided I had to ignore the concept of keys, work only with the pitch, and then go back to the key.

Actually I approach it somewhat differently but I didn't want ot confuse KOTC. I work directly with the major key signature and simply change it. There are 2 sharps, which is the k.s. of D major, so I work on the key signature - major third up is F# - I put in that key signature, and then I worry about my minor tonic. If I were teaching, I don't think I would teach it that way, though.

I think one the safest ways is counting semitones. In C major the distance from C - E (major 3rd) is 4 semitones. That means that from any given note a major third would be 4 semitones higher (or lower if you need to count down). You do need to remember that any kind of 3rd requires you to skip one letter. Eg. a 3rd above B must always be D something, regardless of whether it is major, minor, augmented or diminished.

I've read about the semitone approach before and played with the idea. But when you get something like a diminished 6th, isn't that an awful lot of semitones? What I was afraid of, when considering it, is that I would have to memorize the number of semitones for each kind of interval, and that I would make mistakes. Is such memorization done in the semitone approach?

I learned intervals by basing myself on the major scale and the intervals that are majors and perfects, as though these were "main" or "primary" intervals for the sake of orientation. In essence this is considering the white keys on the piano in a C major scale. The departure point was always the tonic.

Thus a P4 is C to F, a Maj.6 is C to A. I know the interval number by counting how many letters there are. CDEF holds 4 letters for P4. In all cases, if I can't remember whole tones and semitones, I can derive them by running through that scale with the WWHWWWH intervals in my head.

The "other" intervals such as minors, diminished or augmented then are simply added or subtracted semitones.

I am curious whether this is a common way of doing it, and whether it might hold any pitfalls.

It doesn't need to involve memorization. It is very easy to use the scale of C major to work out semitone distance:

C-D Major 2nd (2 semitones)
C-E Major 3rd (4 semitones)
C-F Perfect 4th (5 semitones)
C-G Perfect 5th (7 semitones)
C-A Major 6th (9 semitones)
C-B Major 7th (11 semitones)
C-C Perfect 8ve (12 semitones)

In a theory exam it only takes a minute to write this out on rough paper.

Your way of relating to Major or minor scales is fine. That is how I would work out an interval. The only pitfall is if you make a mistake with your key signatures. If you are 100% sure of your key signatures on any note then you can get there very quickly. You have to make slight adjustments if the lower note is something like A# which is difficult to think of as the key note. I would prefer my students to use both methods. That way they can cross reference and hopefully avoid mistakes.

keystring, having read your post again I may not have understood how you go about it.

Are you saying that from the starting note you measure WWHWWWH in order to compare with C major? If so then this is similar to counting semitones isn't it? The only real difference would be that instead of 4 semitones you would say 2 tones (or whole steps).

Yes, it is similar to counting semitones. So now, in my own attempt to understand your method, you would also begin at the starting note as though the C major scale were in your mind, but you are doing it by counting semitones?

This is the part I did not understand in the past. I thought perhaps people memorized the number of semitones in every possible kind of interval, and I thought this would be a difficult feat of memorization.

I have an additional step that I always do though less handy in this case. I had only movable do solfege since childhood and have learned conventional notation only very recently. I audiate readily, thinking solfegically, so I will also be singing these intervals in my mind. It helps me picture them.

well for the minor.. see this is why I dont get minor trasposition.


In B MINOR there is F C and A (7th note) sharp.

So i would have said D is a major third up.

But if i take it as BMAJOR D is sharp, therfore a major third.

KOTC, you are almost there! Ask yourself, 'what is the 3rd note of the B minor scale?'.

That's right. Well, actually it is not exactly how I do it but it is a method that I teach.

This is how I do intervals:

Take the starting note as the 'key note'.

Check whether the upper note is within the major or minor key signature.

If it fits either scale then you have the answer. If not you make adjustments using semitones.

Of course this method requires a good grasp of scales and key signatures. What I have noticed is that by the time a student is asked (in theory exams) to name the interval between any two notes they might not be at a stage where they play music regularly in the full range of keys. Although there are many methods for working key signatures it is difficult to remember them all unless you use them regularly. That is why I teach the semitone method as well. It's good to be able to approach it from more than one angle.

B C# D


D?


for BMinor...

KOTC, did you get there?

If D is the 3rd note of the B minor scale then B-D is a minor 3rd right?

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Thanks a lot guys.


I think for me, taking it to it's major to do the transpositions is much easier

(The up a majorthird from BMAJOR is D#MAJOR so the answer is D#MINOR)

So .... raising B minor a minor third would simply be D (no sharps/no flats) ... correct?

Correct. But it is best at that point to not think of that note as B major or B minor, but simply as the note B pure and simple. It is too easy to mix up the word "minor" of the scale and "minor" of intervals since ultimately you are dealing with two things: the tonic and the key signature which depends on the relative major key.

So the following is not semantics, but a means of getting more clear thinking, if I were to rephrase your question:

"For the key of B minor, raising the the tonic B gives us D. The new key is the key of D minor."

Think of doing this in the same way that you probably practiced working on intervals between two individual notes, and that the B of B minor at that point is one individual note.