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Dear teachers, Children love to constantly learn something completely new and difficult with their fingers. Something they couldn't do before and which involves all of their fingers moving about in an attempt to manipulate and touch something - and get better in the process, relatively shortsightedly. Children are with their fingers like sea-lions with a ball. If this were not the case, nobody would want to play the piano and we would all be singers instead. What happens when a child suddenly looses interest in the piano is that the teacher (yes, it's all your fault! ) forgets to incorporate this aspect of 'teaching of tricks' in the lessons - in every lesson. In every lesson the child should be shown a new, exciting, difficult trick to be learned! It is very tempting for a teacher to say: 'Allright, we have reached a level, let's relax now and concentrate on 'making music' and play this little extremely boring piece by 5 year old Mozart in another half year instead of learning more new technical and difficult tricks in new pieces...' (My own son's teacher did that once. It led to my son crying on his way home from lessons and me and his teacher having a long, long telephone conversation...(which I won)) But I think that would be a terrible mistake (except in odd cases)! When I think back on my son's three years of tutoring-experience I can see that he has always been most eagerly practicing when difficulties, i.e. new technical tricks in new pieces, challenged him. (And now this story repeats itself with my youngest on her violin). What do you teachers think? Is piano playing better taught as an athletic feat? Or is my wife right once again? Yours humbly, G. Bruno
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Hello Buxtehude ! It is nice to have other Scandinavians here, I am only a little ashamed that your English is much better yhan mine I agree with you, but only up to a point. I have two children who play "keys" (piano, keyboard, organ) but none of them is unusually talented as your boy. So now i speak for ordinary children learning piano as a hobby. Boys are boys, they sure like to learn tricks, teaching piano like an athletic feat is a very good idea. And they should be rewarded for mastering new technical challenges. Girls are just a little different, they often need to be encouraged more to stretch their tecnhique, but sometimes they hav a surprisingly deep understanding of how to play a piece, and they deserve credit for this. I am sure you will agree upon that even if it is not a girls preference she will have to drill technique, and the other way around : a boy would do good having some training in listening and expression. (Boys though are lucky as always, the music-making part can be learned later in life ) Ragnhild
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Buxtehude, let me share a little Beethoven insight in case you by chance haven't read it elsewhere. Not only was he, as we know from various accounts, a master improviser and probably unmatched in both technical and emotional execution, he also often shared his views on music, teaching, and life in general. One of the things I have taken to heart is something he wrote in an instruction book for Archduke Rudolph: "Every day is lost in which we do not learn something useful. Man has no nobler or more valuable possession than time; therefore never put off till tomorrow what you can do today."
Mick
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Thanks Ragnhild and Mick.
A thought just hit me; perhaps it is also the missing element of competition (not with yourself, that's boring in the long run, but with other children your age). When you learn a new thing in sport, you can immidiatly compete with others in doing it best, fastest, etc.
'Look what I can - can you do that... ?' Isn't it what we always hear children say? (Constant new difficulties and constant competition - now I must be a sure candidate for the next yearly Teacher's Stake...)
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It varies from one student to another ... gifted students want to be challenged ... average students prefer to stay at where they are comfortable ... resisting new tricks ...
The majority of students prefer to play old pieces again and again till they hear "perfection" in their own ears ... it's akin to girls enjoying to put on make-up over and over again on their same faces ....
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Speaking of competition, I guess you are right for quite a number of students, that would probably be best challenged by "presenting" it to others? But then, that's either a lot of extra work for the teacher or the student must have reached a certain level at least.
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Buxtehude,
Ordinary children, who may not be super fast learners, usually become frustrated when too many technical "tricks" are taught all at once. In my experience (I do not have any prodigy students such as your child) students feel overwhelmed as if they are failing when there is a constant stress to learn more "tricks." I prefer to allow my students to master a few technical concepts at a time...usually this takes anywhere from 1-3 months depending on the student. My students never get bored because they are constantly receiveing new repertoire which utilizes those FEW "tricks." It helps them to both feel and actually BE SUCCESSFUL...which spurs them on to greater musical achievment. Once I feel a student has adequately demonstrated a few techniques, we move on to others....but giving them a new techniqe to master each and every week is a little intimidating and frankly unattainable for the "average" student....which is exactly what most children are.
However, if I did have a student prodigy like your child I would give the extra technical "tricks" because they could handle it more.
As a music educator, I must say that I ultimately disagree with your theory that teachers should do as you stated..."In every lesson the child should be shown a new, exciting, difficult trick to be learned." While this is true for some students, like your child, I want to stress that there are many ways to prevent boredom in students. For example, some students like to have a ton of repertoire, others prefer extra theory homework, and others like aural stimulation such as listening to extra music that the teacher can assign.
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As a parent...(and student)
I have to agree with nuteacher..The trick is staying in tune with your student -what will urge them on NOW - is it a new trick, more repetoire, more theory.
A great teacher picks up on the student and pushes in the direction the student is ready to receive.
As a educator (not piano) I disagree with your assumption. Children don't want to be performing tricks - children (and in fact all people) want to be successful. The "trick" if there is one, is actually the teacher's ability to find the concept that this student is ready to be succesful at, and "push" in that direction.
This of course requires a sophisticated and individualized lesson plan - focused on the long term.
IMHO, the key to piano study is avoiding the death of frustration AND the death of boredom. The good teacher figures out a middle path.
If Buxetude Son is a prodigy, I suppose it won't matter much since he will, shortly, assume the role of teaching himself. If he is just a gifted and talented learner, I hope he has the benefit of a teacher who has a "master plan" AND the ability to deviate to give him the kind of satisfaction he (and all children) deserve.
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Buxtehude, Children love to constantly learn something completely new and difficult with their fingers. Something they couldn't do before and which involves all of their fingers moving about in an attempt to manipulate and touch something - and get better in the process, relatively shortsightedly. Children are with their fingers like sea-lions with a ball.
If this were not the case, nobody would want to play the piano and we would all be singers instead. I'm thinking "tail wagging the dog" as I read your post. I find that the reason people, including children, want to learn to play piano is to play songs (repertoire), not to gain finger dexterity or learn tricks, or whatever else. The "athletic" part of it is a means to the end of playing more songs, not an end in itself. To use your athletic analogy, young quarterbacks don't practice throwing footballs through a tire swing because they want to be good at throwing through a tire swing. It's a means towards the end of hopefully throwing touchdowns. Similarly, golfers don't swing on a driving range to be the best range ball drivers, they do it as a means towards the end of playing a better round of golf. I think it our job as teachers to always make sure our students are VERY aware of the end game and to constantly remind them why it is they are doing something tedious like Hanon exercises or scales. It's not to become good Hanon exercise or scale players, it's a means toward the end of playing ______ (insert whatever piece of repertoire or style you're working on currently), which is hopefully something the student is really psyched to be learning how to play. I would assume (maybe incorrectly, I admit) your son likes to learn something "new and difficult" with his fingers not just because it is new and difficult in itself, but because it allows him to play something that sounds more interesting to him. Let's never forget the end game is to become a piano player , not a technician. The athletic, technical part is just a means to and end...
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From personal experience I think we are dancing around an issue...and has to do with the ability to interpret music and play with a dynamic range that expresses clear emotion. I have a son who is extremely facile in his ability to play difficult music and with great speed. In fact he viewed playing as an athletic event. The repertoire he played was way beyond his ability to play with feeling and expression. He went through a very painful experience of having to roll all the way back to scales, exercises and technique building music with a new teacher. Did he like it, I think we all know the answer. Nine months later does he now understand why he had to do it--absolutely. So perhaps Buxtehude did not mean "athletic event" in the same way as we experienced it, but isn't there a core set of fundamentals most pianists need to master in order to become true musicians?
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How would you define a "true musician?"
I'm not being sarcastic at all... I've had this discussion before and I find it fascinating and illuminating.
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Scott-- great question and I need to sign off now but my definition includes ability to capture my total attention and take me on a journey that includes visualization and feel the music emotionally and viscerally. Also when I lose track of temporal time and space and it involves the suspension of disbelief (whatever that means).
I realize this isn't a well thought out answer but just to get the ball rolling.
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Well, my great concern is: why do so many youngsters, starting out with great enthusiasm on the piano loose interest? I did so myself and I have witnessed it in dozens of others, family, friends and so on. WHY? (every teacher most have pondered that question and longs to get The Answer. Well, I've written this book Seven Great Insights, and for only 9.99 ...).
Starsea, P&V, Nuteachr, Ftp: I feel we agree at least in part. I never meant to stress the lack of new tricks as the only road into the desert - I just thought that it perhaps is rather overlooked. And of course you should listen to the pupil, what he likes and wants.
Scott (and Dorrie?): I think we'll have to ask the question: Why do so many people start playing ball (golf, baseball, soccer, whatever) and go on doing so for years on end? I can't see any other answer to that than: because it's rewarding - manipulating the ball, gives us a kick, i.e. it is fun !
Same with the piano. Now, I would certaintly never maintain that manipulating keys in an ever increasing complex temporal order is all there is to playing the piano! But it is rewarding in it self and therefore a major part of it, or rather the basic part of it. Working with hand tools is rewarding in it self - it's not the carport or the new kitchen, it's the manipulating of tools and wood.
We are Manipulaters, we get a kick out of manipulating and uses whatever excuse we can find for manipulating, be that a keyboard, a ball, a tool or a cigaret. The correct description of the relationship between fingers and keys is that of a love affair.
That is the basic assumption you have to prove wrong, if you would make me agree that I'm wagging the dog, Scott. Of course the end goal of manipulating keys at the piano is to make music. Can't disagree on that. But if we weren't born ball lovers and manipulaters we wouldn't be doing just that on such a large scale. We would play chess and sing instead, wouldn't we?
Scott, please make me sharpen my arguments!
Yours, H. Habilis
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A true musician is any person who puts his(her) heart and soul into making or performing music ! A pianist os one who uses the fingers on the piano like a ballet-dancer uses her body on the stage. I have learned piano a few years as a child with an unprofessional teacher. Every time I try to play something I keep thinking : I wish I had learned some technique, I wish I knew the trick to do this. If i am lukcy to manage a little Mozart sequence effortless and with relaxed hands it is just such a great kick ! Singing is also a sport, your voice need regular training with the right exercises to become smooth and precise. A set of hands can be moved in so many possible ways and I think a person who wants to play the pano is one that love this micro-athletics of the hands like a gymnast loves the macro-athletic of the whole body. And of coures the reward is even greater when the result is lovely music Ragnhild
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Originally posted by Ragnhild: A set of hands can be moved in so many possible ways and I think a person who wants to play the piano is one that love this micro-athletics of the hands like a gymnast loves the macro-athletic of the whole body. I wish I had said that!
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There are no tricks. Simple techniques once taught/learnt can be developed and refined to cover all situations.
John
Vasa inania multum strepunt.
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John, I certaintly meant 'tricks', between inverted commas, short for: 'New and exciting technical difficulties, just on the limit of what the pupil can manage right now, to be overcome with proper, enthusiastic guidance from the teacher '.
Not tricks in the meaning 'what magicians do' or some kind of 'short cuts'.
If you aren't - as a pupil - constantly presented to such new dificulties to be overcome, you won't get any better. And that hurts and makes you loose interest.
-------------------- QUID QUID LATINE DICTUM SIT, ALTUM VIDITUR
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Originally posted by buxtehude: Well, my great concern is: why do so many youngsters, starting out with great enthusiasm on the piano loose interest? I did so myself and I have witnessed it in dozens of others, family, friends and so on. WHY? I don't think it has much to do with learning new tricks and technical challenges. This will work with some students but not with others. The main reason kids lose interest (IMO) is that they are not encouraged enough or praised enough for their achievements. They often take piano lessons once a week and then have nothing to do with music inbetween. I know that my most succesful students play more than one instrument, take part in musical groups and activities during the week, attend concerts and recitals etc. They are interested in music because it is a big part of their lives. The ones who lose interest do so because nobody shows any interest in their practice and development at home. I am afraid there are many parents (yes, it's your fault ) who feel that paying for lessons and sending their kids once a week is enough. They have this attitude that everything is down to the teacher when that is just not the case. You can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Of course as a teacher you have to find out what interests them and pitch the level of difficulty and progress accurately. The rest is then down to the student and the adults who live with them and spend time with them. Kids just want to please their parents most of the time. If they get the encouragement and praise at home then they will not lose interest.
Pianist and piano teacher.
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Buxtehude,
I had one student for about 4 or 5 years who would fit well into the style of teaching you desribed in your initial post. That particular student needed to be continually challenged or boredom would set in. If the piece of music assigned was too easy, then practice just came to a standstill. If the piece had some extra challenges as you mentioned, some really cool, new technical skill, then that was a big motivation. One of the things that student loved was fast pieces with a lot of 16th note runs. One piece had about a page and a half of some neat sounding 16th note runs that kept coming back in repeated patterns in both hands. I'll have to admit too, it was my favorite part of the piece. The student thought playing those and getting them down at speed was so fun that the student totally neglected the rest of the piece. The attitude was "who cares about learning the whole thing. This is the only part I'm really interested in". This happened with several pieces that the student learned the fascinating technical section of a piece and then would say, "that's all I want to learn of that piece". If I were to "make" the student learn the rest, then of course, practice would come to a standstill again. It's because the next sections were not as interesting technically. The student also was in the gifted classes at school and skipped a grade in 4th grade. The student was not a consistently good practicer - only when there was a constant challenge like you mentioned. Also, the student really was poor at paying attention at the lesson compared to other students so it was difficult to work with the student on "perfecting" the technical challenges. In other words, the student had fun with the technical tricks and practiced harder from the challenge but they were sloppy. There's things I could have and should have done differently but I found it very tough to teach this student. I actually think another teacher other than myself would have been a better match (a teacher more experienced at assigning the repertoire to meet her need for challenge and better at making such a student who wouldn't otherwise pay attention work harder and pay attention)and I really seriously debated mentioning trying another teacher to the parents. Although they transferred to me because their first teacher was too "hard or strict".
I'm not sure why the student finally quit. I speculate it was a variety of reasons: parents were both extremely busy in there own personal lives always canceling at the last minute when both parents were working late or meetings that came up. The student started getting busier in more activities - swim team, violin, then piano and talked about wanting to take some other extra cirricular activities. Also, the parents may have decided so as the student was not practicing very well (the student only practiced like crazy as mentioned with something challenging). Only when I advanced them, they really couldn't play the challenging stuff that well. It was a catch 22 for me - let the student do more challenging music even though it sounded bad because they really weren't ready for it or willing to pay attention to get help on improving technique behind it or give them easier stuff and boredom and stagnation set in. Again, some of this stemmed from my lack of experience but I've learned from it.
In general, at least when it comes to assigning challenging repertoire, it can go either way. Some students rise to the challenge and work harder and come out the other side bumped up a little in skill. Some students get really frustrated with a more challenging piece and would be better off with music they can "divide and conquor" easily.
As far as why students quit or lose interest, one reason I think is both students and parents alike don't realize how much work it really is to learn to play the piano. It's like with any skill, you watch someone else for example, shoot a bunch of hoops over and over in a basketball game and you get all excited saying to yourself, "That looks easy and fun. I can do that!" Then you go out and try it and after 20 tries can't make one basket, you get frustrated and give up rather than stick with it and keep practicing until you do.
Another big reason students quit I think is because of families being too busy and spread too thin trying to be involved in too many things. Both parents working full-time and trying to do all these activities after school/work and weekends. I've had a lot of students literally hardly home at all because there's something going on for schedule every night of the week - pretty hard to practice when your never home. I think this is the main reason students have quit with me - they are too busy and something has to give. It's unfortunate it's the music that's the first thing to go.
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I know I wrote a long post already so shouldn't really be adding more but one thing I learned through the experiences of trying to keep students interested is that it's dangerous territory to be treading on for myself as a teacher to be bending over backwards to cater to every interest and whim of a student.
We read a lot on various threads and posts about tailoring our teaching to the student. We read a lot about the necessity of assigning music that is of interest to the student. There reaches a point, however, where this approach can backfire. Have you ever noticed that the more you try to please someone and keep them happy, the more unhappy they seem to get? That's been my experience in bending over backwards to keep a student's interest. They come out a year later having made little progress and still not found much they are really interested in. I end up trying this music and that music, having parents buy this book and that book trying to find music that "clicks" with a student all for naught and we wind up floating around on a quest to keep the student interested.
I've kind of come full circle on the approach of catering to a students interest to feeling that there should be a core of required music the student needs to do whether they like it or not. Most of my students I feel would do so much better at making progress if I just picked the music I thought most important and appropriate for them and required they learn it. Outside of that they could learn anything they wished.
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