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#927715 - 12/05/08 02:58 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11512
Loc: Canada
The important thing is to not say that students of any age like one kind of music, agreed? Reading that classical music belongs to the "environment of the teacher" gave me an odd feeling in that respect. Besides, I bet there are lots of teachers who have varied tastes in music, and maybe more open than a student because with greater knowledge you are also more open to more things.

For playing music, I want to have enough that I can immerse myself into. If that is there and I can bring it out, then practising will be enjoyable. Listening is not the same thing as playing.

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#927716 - 12/05/08 03:00 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3428
Loc: Western Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
Diane, since I'm in the RCM as a student, I'm wondering whether a teacher cannot still teach other things. Are you thinking of things like fake books and improv as being mandatory in the examinations, or an option? I can imagine that some very traditional teachers would not be comfortable teaching that material. [/b]
Yes!!!!

You make a great point!

Most classical pieces, once learned are "extremely" hard to keep up. Unless you play them every day! But most of the popular pieces, kids learn, for whatever reason, are easier to recall, and are more often better received than classical. Like TimR said, classical was contemporary way back when! How true!

And, as an example of how classical festivals look down on anything that isn't "classical" I registered my students in the RCM music festival with non-classical piece that were categorized as "recital" piece! You can imagine how shocked my students and I were when I got a letter from the RCM's festival office stating that they would not be allowed to play their piece, and that they would appreciate it very much if in the future I would send only students who have a "classical" piece prepared! That is, and was unacceptable! A few other words come to mind, but I'll hold back!!!!!!

Also, I have 2 adult students who both passed their Grade 9 Royal Conservatory exam and are now coming to me for lessons because they aren't happy with just playing the 3 pieces they played for their exam. They want to improvise and play from lead sheets and they haven't a clue how to go about it. I just think they should not have come to me for "more" lessons because shouldn't they have gotten this in the first place?

You make a good point keystring! Most traditional teachers can get you to play a specific classical piece to perfection . . . because they've heard it played the same way, over and over and over and over again!

Think I'll stop now! But I sure have a lot more to say about this!
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#927717 - 12/05/08 03:44 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7274
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Most of us grew up using the language "Classical" and non-classical or pop or jazz or folk. I have come to prefer using the terms art music and social music. Art music being defined as music written for its own sake, and social music being define as music written to support something else, such as dance, worship, social causes, youth causes, etc.

These terms seem to me to remove judgmental tones like "high brow" (remember that one?), vulgar, etc. and sort music into categories based on the reason for composition. It says nor implies anything about validity. Folks wanting to argue that can go over the "Let's argue validity" forum.

When I teach, I use music which is fundamentally composed for training students to develop facility. As students progress, I try to use music which is composed specifically for piano, not adapted, which is often extremely awkward. Most of it is art music, as there isn't very much social music composed specifically for advancing piano students. However, there is quite a bit of instructional material which incorporates various social music idiom, and those are very helpful for students who are feeling socially awkward.

Diane wrote:
 Quote:
Most classical pieces, once learned are "extremely" hard to keep up.
I find that an odd statement, Diane. At least, it's not true in my case. I find it no harder nor easier to return to a piece set aside years (make that decades) ago based on what it was written for. Difficult works take a few run throughs if being prepped for a performance, but I pick up and read through music I haven't touched in decades without any stress.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#927718 - 12/05/08 03:47 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7274
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
By the way, Diane, I'm in complete agreement with you on the RCM festival. That seems to me something which should be elevated. If you have a student who can play, "Kitten on the Keys" up to tempo, they should certainly be allowed the chance to perform.

Here's a fun version of Kitten on the Keys
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#927719 - 12/05/08 04:02 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
The important thing is to not say that students of any age like one kind of music, agreed?
[/b]

Age doesn't determine anything, let alone tastes.
Age has nothing to do with styles of music. The only reason why older people nowadays seem less likely to listen to pop modern music, is that they had already shut their openess to the new when it appeared. But this has always happened.
There were people who never learned to appreciate/use/relate to cash machines, televisions, cars, washing machines. Nowadays several older people can't relate or use the computer, the net and simply dismiss it as some kind of modern nonsense outside of their sphere.
Pop music communicates with everyone just like classical music or jazz, but differnet things strike different chords in different individuals

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#927720 - 12/05/08 04:16 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11512
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Most traditional teachers can get you to play a specific classical piece to perfection . . . because they've heard it played the same way, over and over and over and over again!
This is slightly OT - Is that how it's done in some quarters? I have always had to develop my piece according to my interpretation, though under guidance. I'm starting to get some new perspectives.

Back *on* topic, Diane. I am remembering now what short practice times I'm reading about in these forums. We were told, as beginners after the first few months, that a ** minimum of 3 hours ** practising per day was recommended - not half an hour to an hour. If you practice that amount of time you can easily encompass the RCM material and still have time to spare for plenty of other things. I wonder if that makes a difference.
 Quote:
You can imagine how shocked my students and I were when I got a letter from the RCM's festival office stating that they would not be allowed to play their piece
That does not sound right. To be honest, I wasn't even ware that such festivals exist.

Have you noticed that the revised theory book has additional scales, including blues, expanded on modes, and created three pages on "popular chord symbols". They do seem to be trying to reach out a little bit from before. Is it a matter of education and awareness-creation, do you think?

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#927721 - 12/05/08 04:33 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3428
Loc: Western Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by John v.d.Brook:
Diane wrote:
 Quote:
Most classical pieces, once learned are "extremely" hard to keep up.
I find that an odd statement, Diane. At least, it's not true in my case. I find it no harder nor easier to return to a piece set aside years (make that decades) ago based on what it was written for. Difficult works take a few run throughs if being prepped for a performance, but I pick up and read through music I haven't touched in decades without any stress. [/b]
Sorry John, I should have been clearer in my statement. Was referring to playing a classical piece polished from "memory"! Yes I agree with you that it's no problem to refer back to a classical piece that we had worked on for months, and bring it back up to speed. But if I have my choice at a party and someone asks me to play something, chances are that I will play popular pieces as opposed to performing a classical piece that has to be played from memory on the spot!

My point is that most people take piano lessons to play what they want to play, not what the Royal Conservatory wants them to play.

Variety, jazz, blues, pop, boogie woogie, AND classical! I just want it all! \:D
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#927722 - 12/05/08 04:59 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11512
Loc: Canada
Are Bach chorals social music since they were written for worship and thus sort of utilitarian? I am serious in the question.

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#927723 - 12/06/08 05:09 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
In my opinion and according to philosophies of art, art is everything which is supported by a need for creative expression. A 3 year old child drawing something on a sheet or creating an origami at the kindergarten is doing pure art. Actually according to some philosophers of arts the spontaneous creations of young children are the quintessence of artistic expession.

Modernism has showed us that even a telephone box filled with leaves or canned peas can be art. The point about common objects becoming art is very interesting. As long as they're used for their purpose they're not art, but every day commodities. But as long as they become a conscious mean of individual artistic expression, they're art. The problem with modernism is not showing us that even those things can be artistics, but (at some point) bypassing the creative process and using commodities randomly.

Music with a purpose is still art is supported by a need to express one's creativity. Trance music can be art, it only depends on the motivation of the creator. And even if music is used as a background, as a soundtrack, as a supporter for a social movement, it can still be pure art.

Likewise, lot of classical music, is not music created for the sake of it, but music supporting philosophies, ideologies, social settings and aggregation.

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#927724 - 12/06/08 07:30 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
AZNpiano Online   sleepy
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/07
Posts: 5397
Loc: Orange County, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danny Niklas:
Likewise, lot of classical music, is not music created for the sake of it, but music supporting philosophies, ideologies, social settings and aggregation. [/b]
Hmm...I won't go that far, but as the hopeless Romantic that I am, I'm borrowing some ideas from Wordsworth. Wordsworth defined poetry as the "spontaneous overflow" of emotions, "recollected in tranquility." I think composers are doing the same thing using musical notation instead of words. And when a performer plays those written notes, the composer's emotions can be re-lived by anyone hearing the music, just as when you read poetry you re-live the poet's emotions.

I know this is a limited view on art/music, but it's the one that I prefer to live by. \:D
_________________________
Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member

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#927725 - 12/06/08 08:33 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11512
Loc: Canada
Recently Diane told us about the RCM's rejection of the music she presented for the festival. Meanwhile we also have the expression "art music" with a specific meaning of serious, well done, depth, not just utilitarion, vs. "social music" meaning not serious, quality less of an issue, possibly utilitarian (dance, background, worship). Perhaps "classical" vs. "non-classical" can be redefined because I suspect that either could be divided into "art" and "social". Does how it is play enter into it?

In any case, without understanding this type of music much, and thinking of what might by RCM mentality, I am looking at these two performances. The first is the one John presented yesterday:
Kittens - first version
The second is what I found afterward:
Kittens - Dick Hyman

Now, what I think I am hearing in the second version are things that I am learning in "classical" studies - phrasing, articulation, use of dynamics, contrast etc. This music seems "shaped" and it seems to reflect skill in execution as well as knowledge of what is being played. If I am right, I could see the RCM going for it if they can see it in that light.

What is the contrast between the first and second version that I seem to be half-hearing? Does this have any bearing on this discussion, I wonder?

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#927726 - 12/06/08 08:40 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3146
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
Are Bach chorals social music since they were written for worship and thus sort of utilitarian? I am serious in the question. [/b]
Nobody answered so I'll take a crack at this one.

Yes, they are. They are utilitarian pieces knocked out by the hundreds for a specific purpose.

Yet, they also seem to be musical. How he did that I dunno, guess genius makes its own path.

Even though they are social, in the modern context they are probably not accessible to the masses, so they get categorized as art music by some. I think when we move music into categories we risk value judgements and snobbishness. They were social music when they were contemporary, and they have survived to sink into an art music niche.

It's probably also useful to invoke the Sturgeon principle (90% of everything is cr@p). True of today's contemporary music, but also of Bach's day. It's just that the 10% tends to survive longer.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#927727 - 12/06/08 08:46 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11512
Loc: Canada
Diane, I'm still chewing over the same thing. I'm sort of thinking about the ultra-classical musician who may be the judge at the RCM, and how his ear has developed. And I have no clue what these teachers would and would not know.

I've been listening to Dick Hyman, and for the first few minutes, everything sounded like the same thing with a slightly different colour to it. I was missing something.

It happens that Hyman also gives lessons on blues, stride etc. and he presents them in a way that I was able to see the basic patterns, and variations of the same. I could see the "sense" behind this music so that I could stop listening with classical ears. (As far as one can catch anything in 10 minutes.)

I would think that anyone judging this music would need to understand its nature and what is important in it (criteria). Anyone teaching it would have to know how it's approached (would the 'classical way' work?) and if a strictly classical teacher doesn't approach music that way ever, would it be good or bad for it to become a mandatory part of the program? If optional, can a judge judge it properly?

I know nothing about this music, and my own knowledge is far from finished, so this is highly objective. I am an RCM student so this interests me.

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#927728 - 12/06/08 09:19 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
John v.d.Brook Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7274
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Keystring wrote:
 Quote:
Are Bach chorals social music since they were written for worship and thus sort of utilitarian?
and Tim opined that they were.

Actually, that's part of the great Bach debate. And his genius.

As I see it, he was hired to crank out formula music week after week, but was inspired (by God? as some would argue) to create art music which would still be usable in the church setting.

The St. Matthew Passion is undeniably art music. He knew it, and had to specifically work against his boss to get it staged.

Bach probably wasn't the first. Buxtehude and others were writing art music and using it in church. And for the most part, their patrons rather enjoyed the elevation it gave them.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#927729 - 12/06/08 09:40 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 11353
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Right, John. Just because someone gets paid to do something doesn't mean it wasn't inspired. Composers like Bach were able to get paid for something they enjoyed doing. They used whatever venue available to them to channel their creativity. There was a lot of other functional music written at that time, but it was not at such a high quality as Bach, Buxtehude, Vivaldi, Scarlatti, etc.

Also, the speed at which things are created doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't of high quality. Handel wrote the Messiah in a matter of two weeks, which is incredible. Schubert turned out over 600 art songs in his short lifetime.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11

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#927730 - 12/06/08 09:52 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3428
Loc: Western Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
Recently Diane told us about the RCM's rejection of the music she presented for the festival.
In any case, without understanding this type of music much, and thinking of what might by RCM mentality, I am looking at these two performances. The first is the one John presented yesterday:
Kittens - first version
The second is what I found afterward:
Kittens - Dick Hyman
[/b]
Kitten on the Keys by Zez Confrey! Great piece! I searched through the RCM Syllabus and it's not even a choice. You couldn't play it for an exam because it's not a piece the RCM thinks is worthy to be on their choice list! I would also love to see more music like Kitten on the Keys played at festivals.

Most students will never reach a Grade 9 or a higher level. And in the mean time, they won't have learned improvisation, or lead sheet playing or learn to master other great rhythms that I think should be taught and learned, and to me that's a shame!

That's my point!
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#927731 - 12/06/08 10:30 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
Music is a vehicle. It is a vehicle for self-expression, for creative needs, for telling stories, for creating social backgrounds, for advancing political/religious/philosophical view and even for propaganda.

There's a tendency to see complexity, structural sophistication, virtuosity and so on as the meaning itself of certain music. That's how many end up listening to more complex music and then snobbing everything which is simpler.

This would never happen if they realize that all these characteristics are circumstantial vehicles. A composer shouldn't wake up one morning with the desire to write "complex music". He wakes up with the desire to write music, complexity might at some point serve him and provide the expression vehicles he needs, or it might not.

Music which is not complex, structurally sosphisticated, perpetually evolving, technically stimulating is simply music which DOESN'T NEED to be so.

Classical ballet is not "technically harder" than modern dancing because it is "better" and wants to be "better". It is harder because it needs to employ moves that require harder coordination. Modern dancing doesn't need those moves. This doesn't make modern dancing any less communicative, artistic, interesting and worthy.

As musicians we find intellectual satisfication in overusing our mind when listening, analyzing the structure, the cadences, the chords functions.
But we can't really believe this is what music is all about for the rest of the world. As technicians we're interested in the inside structure of the vehicle, but we should acknowledge that the purpose of the vehicle and the use of the vehicle is another, and our is just an intellectual game.

I wonder whether a surgeon, when hugging his child, still thinks uniquely about his spine, his spleen, his upper arm to torso ratio, his ulna, his meneiscus or simply enjoy the physical sensation and the tenderness of the moment.

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#927732 - 12/06/08 11:28 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Swiss-based Danny tends to ramble ... for once, I took the trouble to read all 302 words (17 sentences and 46 lines) ... but can’t make head or tail of the bold words in these quotes ...
and beg an explanation of their meaning.

1. Music is a vehicle for self-expression[/b]

2. Many end up listening to more complex music and then
snobbing[/b] everything which is simpler

3. This would never happen if they realize that all these
characteristics are circumstantial[/b] vehicles.

4. Music which is not complex, is simply music which
DOESN'T NEED to be so[/b] .

5. We find intellectual satisfaction in over-using[/b] our mind
when listening and analysing the structure

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#927733 - 12/06/08 11:30 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Larisa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 498
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
Recently Diane told us about the RCM's rejection of the music she presented for the festival. Meanwhile we also have the expression "art music" with a specific meaning of serious, well done, depth, not just utilitarion, vs. "social music" meaning not serious, quality less of an issue, possibly utilitarian (dance, background, worship). Perhaps "classical" vs. "non-classical" can be redefined because I suspect that either could be divided into "art" and "social". Does how it is play enter into it?

In any case, without understanding this type of music much, and thinking of what might by RCM mentality, I am looking at these two performances. The first is the one John presented yesterday:
Kittens - first version
The second is what I found afterward:
Kittens - Dick Hyman

Now, what I think I am hearing in the second version are things that I am learning in "classical" studies - phrasing, articulation, use of dynamics, contrast etc. This music seems "shaped" and it seems to reflect skill in execution as well as knowledge of what is being played. If I am right, I could see the RCM going for it if they can see it in that light.

What is the contrast between the first and second version that I seem to be half-hearing? Does this have any bearing on this discussion, I wonder? [/b]
Ah, ragtime. Really, I think the interesting distinction when it comes to this sort of music is not the distinction between the two version you cited (it's clear the first one is amateurishly played, and the second one is professional) - but rather, the distinction between these two:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcKHnb-K5fk&feature=related
(Dick Hyman)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WjXrl8vecLE&feature=related
(Frederick Hodges)

Now, both of these are professionals, and both are great pianists. Both performances have all the articulation, phrasing, technical agility, etc. that one might require. But they're not playing the same notes.

Now, I'm not sure what this means in terms of RCM evaluations; I just wanted to note that there is a further distinction there. I spend my musical life at this particular borderline between "classical' and 'jazz', and to me, the distinction appears to be that in 'classical' playing, you play what's on the page, and in 'jazz' playing, you can go beyond what's on the page and make stuff up.

At ragtime festivals, this distinction comes through very clearly, because some of the pianists come from classical backgrounds and some come from jazz backgrounds - and the classically-trained pianists play exactly what's on the page, while the jazz-trained pianists improvise. Here are two examples of a "classical" and a "jazzy" approach to the same tune:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UNhzq5VGKCg
(Maple Leaf Rag, as played by a top-notch classical pianist and accompanied by an orchestra)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RISjp-d38-0
(Maple Leaf Rag, as a piano duet by two top-notch jazz pianists)

I don't think that one is necessarily "better" or "worse" than the other - both are fun.

LM

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#927734 - 12/06/08 12:54 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by Morodiene:
Schubert turned out over 600 art songs in his short lifetime. [/b]
I'm not sure something as an "art song" (opposing a "just song" exists.
Schubert wrote songs meant to be popular and to be heard and performed daily. If they were more musically sophisticated, it is because that was the popular language of those times. If they were meant to be played on a piano it is because it was the popular music conveyer of those times. But there's no difference between MTV pop songs and lieders. I'm not saying this to belittle Schubert music but to reedem pop songs and to point out how weak is the difference between pop and classical, mostly chronological rather than artistical.

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#927735 - 12/06/08 01:07 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4726
Loc: South Florida
My guesses:
 Quote:

1. Music is a vehicle for self-expression[/b]
We use music for expressing ourselves. (I would say that this is at least one reason for playing music, surely for composing it.)
 Quote:

2. Many end up listening to more complex music and then
snobbing[/b] everything which is simpler
snobbing=turning up our noses. It was clear to me. \:\)
 Quote:

3. This would never happen if they realize that all these
characteristics are circumstantial[/b] vehicles.
pertinent but not essential, incidental
 Quote:

4. Music which is not complex, is simply music which
DOESN'T NEED to be so[/b] .
It is what it is. \:\)
 Quote:

5. We find intellectual satisfaction in over-using[/b] our mind
when listening and analysing the structure
Describing what happens when people over-analyze instead of just enjoying things. \:\)
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Piano Teacher

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#927736 - 12/06/08 01:36 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Gary D. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4726
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danny Niklas:
But there's no difference between MTV pop songs and lieders.
The difference would not be Lieder vs. pop songs but IF pop songs have a standard notated version that is expected be followed. \:\)
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Piano Teacher

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#927737 - 12/06/08 02:34 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Larisa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 498
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Originally posted by Gary D.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Danny Niklas:
But there's no difference between MTV pop songs and lieders.
The difference would not be Lieder vs. pop songs but IF pop songs have a standard notated version that is expected be followed. \:\) [/b]
What about Baroque music? Typically, the continuo was not notated, and the players were expected to improvise - kinda like pop or jazz players. I played the harpsichord in a Baroque period-instrument ensemble once, and my music certainly wasn't notated - I only had the bare skeleton of a melodic line and some chord symbols. Just because there is a "standard notated version" now, and everyone plays it exactly the same, does not mean that this is what the composer intended at the time the music was written.

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#927738 - 12/06/08 03:33 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11512
Loc: Canada
Larissa, thank you for the selections you posted. What I don't know could fill an ocean. How many lifetimes would we need to absorb it all? ;\)

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#927739 - 12/06/08 06:56 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Larisa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 498
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
Larissa, thank you for the selections you posted. What I don't know could fill an ocean. How many lifetimes would we need to absorb it all? ;\) [/b]
Glad you enjoyed them! And isn't it wonderful that music is so vast and so diverse that there's always something new to learn?

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#927740 - 12/06/08 09:31 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3146
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larisa:
 Quote:
Originally posted by keystring:
Larissa, thank you for the selections you posted. What I don't know could fill an ocean. How many lifetimes would we need to absorb it all? ;\) [/b]
Glad you enjoyed them! And isn't it wonderful that music is so vast and so diverse that there's always something new to learn? [/b]
I agree, thank you for expanding my vision. I'm been watching Dick Hyman on you tube all day, fascinating styles I knew nothing about.

Watching him play Kitten on the Keys or Fingerbreaker = wow.

It almost made me ask a question I've been careful to avoid for years. That is the perennial, as an adult beginner how good can I get? I ignored it, because I didn't care. I have zero desire to play Rach or Chopin. I have a great desire to play music at a difficulty level that is realistic (though beyond me now).

So I dunno about the stuff you posted. His block chord stylings look doable to me with a little work, okay a lot of work. But Kitten or Fingerbreaker looks easily on a par with the most difficult concerto works - am I wrong?
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#927741 - 12/06/08 10:53 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Larisa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 498
Loc: Philadelphia
I don't think they're quite as hard as that. I think you should try them and find out. \:\)

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#927742 - 12/07/08 12:44 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks Gary D for attempting to explain what the blazes the Swiss-based chappie is on about ... but, if you are correct in your explanation, then Danny is an loose cannon who is merely flying a verbose kite to stay in the Forum chat.

Staying with your interpretation

1. How can any Charlie suggest that music is a vehicle for self-expression ... when the composer is locked into the torturous game of combining
note patterns into an agreeable whole ... while for most of us, there is never a thought of self-expression when tackling a Beethoven Sonata ...
we’re totally engrossed in trying to be true to the score.

2. What preposterous nonsense to suggest that we listen to complex music to "snob" simpler music .

3. Swopping "pertinent" for "circumstantial" ... what gobbledegook to say that " all these circumstances are pertinent vehicles!"

4. Now for a ripe platitude ... to say that non-complex music is what it is because it "doesn’t need to be so" ... as lame as your reading .

5. In "over-using" our minds we bump into a real Lulu ... try to imagine anyone listening to music (analysing the structure) having a melt-down
over a Chopin Nocturne .

The chappie is clearly un-versed in the English tongue ... not unusual in Switzerland with their close bond to French, German and Italian.

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#927743 - 12/07/08 03:32 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
lotuscrystal Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 304
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
For a retired architect, and perhaps a sarcasm major with anger management issues and a flair for racism, you certainly are a self-proclaimed expert on music :rolleyes:

In my opinion BTB, your command of the English language puts it to shame, if your present and post history is anything to go on. You are nasty at the best of times. Sorry, but it needs to be said, in my opinion.

Had a read of the thread...some interesting points. \:\)

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#927744 - 12/07/08 04:25 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Danny Niklas Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 905
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Thanks Gary D for attempting to explain what the blazes the Swiss-based chappie is on about ... but, if you are correct in your explanation, then Danny is an loose cannon who is merely flying a verbose kite to stay in the Forum chat.

Staying with your interpretation

1. How can any Charlie suggest that music is a vehicle for self-expression ... when the composer is locked into the torturous game of combining
note patterns into an agreeable whole ... while for most of us, there is never a thought of self-expression when tackling a Beethoven Sonata ...
we’re totally engrossed in trying to be true to the score.
[/b]

When you perform you express yourself.
If you're so busy with the details of the performance to the point of being unable to express anything else than technical flawness, then you should find a better way to learn your pieces, so at least most of the technical nuances are subconscious. Music is both self-expression for the composer but also for the listener who chooses music he/she can relate to. When the composer strikes a chord in the listener it's because their "experiences" (told in music) match, the listener recognizes bits of him/herself in that kind of musical expressivity. Finally music is self-expression for the performer too. Except when in need to perform music he/she doesn't care for (for work) when a performer can choose, he/she will necessarily chooses pieces which have an affinity with a common way to feel.

 Quote:
2. What preposterous nonsense to suggest that we listen to complex music to "snob" simpler music.
[/b]

It's not what I said, and you know it well.
I listen to complex music and don't snob simpler music. I said that several listeners do though, because they fail to see those characteristics of music are means to an end and not the conscious purpose of music itself.

 Quote:
3. Swopping "pertinent" for "circumstantial" ... what gobbledegook to say that " all these circumstances are pertinent vehicles!"
[/b]

Circumstantial, related to a specific circumstace, changing according to the circumstance, based on the contingences of the moment.

 Quote:
4. Now for a ripe platitude ... to say that non-complex music is what it is because it "doesn’t need to be so" ... as lame as your reading.
[/b]

Then it's a platitude that needed to be told.
Many (expecially on accademies) are still infected with the 20th century virus and still believe that music which is not complex is music which is not able to be complex. Complexity is seen as a necessary purpose of serious music rather than a consequence of what we need to employ in writing our music.

 Quote:
The chappie is clearly un-versed in the English tongue ... not unusual in Switzerland with their close bond to French, German and Italian. [/b]
Some of us prefer to learn the basic syntax and correct sentence construction rather than lot of meaningless and anachronistic terms. You sound sophisticated but can't communicate, my english is flawed but everyone understand me. Now that you've memorized the whole dictionary, finally find a school in Pretoria and learn how to express your ideas properly, without distracting pompous mannerism and pseudo intellectualism.

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