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#927745 - 12/07/08 05:16 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11590
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
when the composer is locked into the torturous game of combining
note patterns into an agreeable whole ... while for most of us, there is never a thought of self-expression when tackling a Beethoven Sonata ...
we’re totally engrossed in trying to be true to the score.
First of all, I doubt that the composer is "locked" in a "torturous game" - I think he is composing, using the tools at his disposal which he would have learned in years of study, just as we have tools for any other art and craft. What he would want us to do, I am sure, is to be true to the ** music ** in the score; there is a subtle difference.

As much as there is musical form, grammar, syntax, correctness and the rest, there is something that the composer wishes to convey. He uses the elements of music to convey this. It is up to us to unlock that code, and not only the code of correct playing, and get at that meaning. In so doing we also draw on something within ourselves, and likewise in listening the audience will find themselves moved from within. This is the self-expression. It is not the same as that of the jazz player, who uses a theme as his starting point and then develops it as though he and his fellows were doing a joint composition exercise in real time. The notes are adhered to, but what is done with them is where the expressiveness comes in.

These are not my own thoughts as much as they are how I am being taught.

For the other: I am surprised that xenophobic ad hominem attacks are allowed to stand in this forum. They certainly weaken the position of the writer, as such things always do. When the writer also has useful things to contribute and share, it is a sad thing to see, because they might be missed.

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#927746 - 12/07/08 07:31 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Don’t go antagonistic on us Danny ... after a worthy explanation of the 5 points at issue ( for which many thanks) ... there is no reason to add to the blarney by defensively saying

"some of us prefer to learn the basic syntax and correct sentence construction rather than a lot of meaningless and anachronistic terms."

Just as some of us can’t compete with you in your Swiss mother-tongue ... you must accept that some of us might be ahead of the game when it
comes to the English language .

On this Forum, we try not to be critical of the outpourings of bouncy respondents ... there’s space for everybody ... we go with the flow ...
only occasionally taunted to exact a gentle chastisement ... so as to maintain a mutually acceptable truth.

But the long and short of the matter is, that I don’t agree with the points you have made (forgive me) ... more particularly with the in-your-face presentation ... but have leaned on the mitigating "out" of a second language ... which appears to be the case.





Some of us prefer to learn the basic syntax and correct sentence
construction rather than lot of meaningless and anachronistic terms. You sound sophisticated but can't communicate, my english is flawed but everyone understand me. Now that you've memorized the whole dictionary, finally find a school in Pretoria and learn how to express your ideas properly, without distracting pompous mannerism and pseudo intellectualism.
1.

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#927747 - 12/07/08 03:02 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by lotuscrystal:
In my opinion BTB, your command of the English language puts it to shame, if your present and post history is anything to go on. You are nasty at the best of times. Sorry, but it needs to be said, in my opinion. [/b]
I say, steady on there.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#927748 - 12/07/08 03:25 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Larisa Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 498
Loc: Philadelphia
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:

1. How can any Charlie suggest that music is a vehicle for self-expression ... when the composer is locked into the torturous game of combining
note patterns into an agreeable whole ... while for most of us, there is never a thought of self-expression when tackling a Beethoven Sonata ...
we’re totally engrossed in trying to be true to the score.
[/b]
Umm, if there's no self-expression in it, it's not music. Period. If all you're doing is pressing the notes on the page as they are written, without any emotion or feeling in it, you are not making music - you are doing a finger exercise. I've had some students like that - they're so engrossed in pressing the right notes at the right time that they forget to play with feeling. The result is not music.

Yes, the composer probably had something in mind when he or she wrote the music - but it is then the performer's job to bring out those emotions, and maybe even emotions that the composer hadn't even considered, and to make the music sound good. It can be done, as a classical performer would, by focusing on the touch, the dynamics, the tempo variations; or, as a jazz performer would, by changing some of the notes or adding embellishments and improvisation - but it must be done. Music is about self-expression.

I had a really fascinating experience once at a master class with a really good concert pianist. The piece he asked me to play was one of my own compositions. He found subtleties in my music that I never consciously intended. My performance of that piece sounded a lot better when he was done with it. And when he played it, it sounded a lot better than when I played it.

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#927749 - 12/07/08 03:28 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11590
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
I had a really fascinating experience once at a master class with a really good concert pianist. The piece he asked me to play was one of my own compositions. He found subtleties in my music that I never consciously intended. My performance of that piece sounded a lot better when he was done with it. And when he played it, it sounded a lot better than when I played it.
That is something to digest.

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#927750 - 12/07/08 09:01 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Gary D. Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/08
Posts: 4750
Loc: South Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Thanks Gary D for attempting to explain what the blazes the Swiss-based chappie is on about ... but, if you are correct in your explanation, then Danny is an loose cannon who is merely flying a verbose kite to stay in the Forum chat.
Actually, his points were clear to me, and unlike you, I mostly agree with them.
 Quote:

The chappie is clearly un-versed in the English tongue ... not unusual in Switzerland with their close bond to French, German and Italian.
Is this a swipe at all the people who use those languages, or just the ones who have not mastered English well enough to please you? \:\)
_________________________
Piano Teacher

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#927751 - 12/08/08 05:04 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
lotuscrystal Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 304
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Don’t go antagonistic on us Danny ... [/b]
Three words: cat, kettle, black :rolleyes:

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#927752 - 12/08/08 05:06 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
 Quote:
Originally posted by lotuscrystal:
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Don’t go antagonistic on us Danny ... [/b]
Three words: cat, kettle, black :rolleyes: [/b]
Actually the three words you're looking for are pot, kettle, black.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#927753 - 12/08/08 05:30 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Don't go antagonistic on us klutz,

Imagine correcting an Aussie Sheila ... but then London pigeon-watchers of your ilk have been edicated proper-like... and know that it was the jolly old pot that called the kettle black .

Must have been coined in those early days before
Marmaduke Edison patented the electrical field.

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#927754 - 12/08/08 05:32 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
lotuscrystal Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 304
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
 Quote:
Originally posted by lotuscrystal:
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
Don’t go antagonistic on us Danny ... [/b]
Three words: cat, kettle, black :rolleyes: [/b]
Actually the three words you're looking for are pot, kettle, black. [/b]
haha...right you are..I stand corrected. Thanks for pointing that out \:\) Well, at least you know what I mean.

And BTB, I'm not Australian..What's with you and the cultural hang-ups? Sheesh mate...

And music is a form of self-expression, for the composer, for the performer, and for the listener/audience member.

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#927755 - 12/08/08 05:45 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
I thought Marmaduke was a dog!?
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#927756 - 12/08/08 10:41 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Mike Saville Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/05/08
Posts: 15
Loc: Cornwall, UK
Interesting thread! I've only just found these forums so am looking forward to getting involved - particularly in topics like this.
_________________________
Mike Saville
How To Practise

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#927757 - 12/08/08 12:47 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Hey, welcome Englander!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#927758 - 12/14/08 06:05 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
mDecks Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 7
...
_________________________
mDecks.
Learn Music, Challenge Your Mind.

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#927759 - 12/14/08 06:14 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by mDecks:
Hi, I strongly suggest using this workbook....[/b]
Stop with the advertising. This is a discussion forum, and it's not appropriate here.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#927760 - 12/16/08 04:02 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7315
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Reading back through the thread, I'm not at all certain if we ever agreed that we can or cannot help a student who doesn't practice. Or did we???
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#927761 - 12/17/08 04:18 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
lotuscrystal Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/22/08
Posts: 304
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Outside of practice schedules, meetings with parents, providing music students really wish to play...I can't think of any earth-shattering solution.

I think the whole 'students who don't practice' is the nemesis of all piano teachers \:\)

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#927762 - 12/17/08 04:25 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
theJourney Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 3946
Loc: Banned
How about the rule "you either practice at home on your own or with me in the studio". Students who don't practice are required to go on daily half hour lessons every day after school with a three month minimum start commitment. Parents soon realize it is cheaper and easier to have them practice at home but will be very impressed with the results achieved in those three months. The student will also have learned from you HOW to practice (and how to have FUN practicing towards results). Everybody wins.

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#927763 - 12/17/08 07:55 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
I’m glad when I developed a decided talent for tiddly-winks that there was no thought of a “work book” ... the same was true when I cottoned on to driving (both car and golf-ball) ... then there
was that shrewd acumen plus in not giving the game away at poker (when dealt all 4 aces!) .

But why is it that piano-practice is the only NON-FUN learning process?

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#927764 - 12/17/08 08:38 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7315
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
btb, what's this NON-FUN stuff? Don't you enjoy practicing? Why not?
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#927765 - 12/17/08 08:39 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7315
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
theJourney wrote:
 Quote:
How about the rule "you either practice at home on your own or with me in the studio". Students who don't practice are required to go on daily half hour lessons every day after school with a three month minimum start commitment. Parents soon realize it is cheaper and easier to have them practice at home but will be very impressed with the results achieved in those three months. The student will also have learned from you HOW to practice (and how to have FUN practicing towards results). Everybody wins.
I love it! \:D
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#927766 - 12/17/08 09:39 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Thanks for your concern JvdB.

Not being in the selling-game of making palatable
10,000 grinding hours before reaching a Beethoven Sonata ... my fortunate focus is on the joy of playing ... NOT all that hard work practicing.

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#927767 - 12/17/08 09:57 AM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7315
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Hard work is it's own reward.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#927768 - 12/17/08 09:11 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
It is spurious double-talk (backed by a ghastly 10,000 hour regime) to suggest that "hard work is it’s own reward" ... the Computer Age demands "smart" thinking.

Hard work might be for prisoners ... not for the playing of a Chopin Nocturne.

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#927769 - 12/18/08 03:11 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7315
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
That explains a lot!
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#927770 - 12/18/08 04:18 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Some of us obey the dictum of Richard Henry Dunn ... but not all.

"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn."

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#927771 - 12/18/08 04:26 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Diane... Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 3443
Loc: Western Canada
Shouldn't you two just pick up "swords" or something!?

Very much enjoy both of you around here!! So let's just kiss and make up!

Where's that mistletoe when you need it anyway! \:D
_________________________
http://www.pianoworld.com/Uploads/files/goldsparkledress.jpg
Diane
Jazz/Blues/Rock/Boogie Piano Teacher


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#927772 - 12/18/08 05:28 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13764
Loc: Iowa City, IA
 Quote:
Originally posted by btb:
It is spurious double-talk (backed by a ghastly 10,000 hour regime) to suggest that "hard work is it’s own reward" ... the Computer Age demands "smart" thinking.[/b]
Tell that to my sister-in-law and her boyfriend. She's a high level support engineer for Microsoft and he's a software engineer doing voice recognition and RFID research projects.

Both of them easily put in 10,000 hours of training and work very hard 60-80 hour weeks.

Or you could tell either of my brothers in law. One is the CEO of a very successful technology solutions company and the other works in client relations for a national data systems provider.

If you asked both, they would say that choosing between hard and smart is a quick route to failure. In today's world you need both.

I believe the same about music.

2 hours of good practice is better than 6 hours of bad practice.

But 6 hours of smart practice is better than both of those.

People who advocate working hard OR smart are either stupid OR lazy. ;\)
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#927773 - 12/18/08 05:28 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13764
Loc: Iowa City, IA
\:D
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

www.pianoped.com
www.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed

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#927774 - 12/18/08 05:56 PM Re: How can I help my students when they don't practice???
rocket88 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 3158
Can I jump in here and bring this back to the Original Topic?

I have found that that helping students when they don't/won't
practice falls into two general categories.

The first is people who need help with managing their time.

The second category is the big one...people who do not want to play the piano, but a being forced to. This, of course, is mostly children and young adults.

There is only one way to get them to practice...you and them must find a style of music, or songs, that they want to learn.

In other words, they are human beings, and human nature says that people will do what they like and enjoy, and, if possible, avoid what they do not like.

When I have a young person as a student who will not practice, that is the only thing that has ever worked...find music that they like.
_________________________
Music teacher and piano player.

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