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Both are needed.
It is the responsability of the teacher to be interesting and the responsability of the student to be interested. But being interested is hard when you deal with non interesting (or stimulating) people, methods and environment. I've always been someone very motivated to learn for my own personal enjoyiment and enrichment, but I find very hard to maintain interest when dealing with monotony of certain people or instructions.

John.....

John, you've asked a good question!

"My question, which is really only a hypothetical, thrown out for discussion, is when does the teacher's responsibility for learning end and the student's begin?"

Because of our musical careers as a teacher we have the responsibility from our choice of work that we do in grooming musicians. I choose this responsbility and we know more about this than any of our students about what it takes to become a capable musician. We know each step of the way having traveled it ourselves, and having led others along this path in the years we have been teaching. We actually have become experts in this....if not experts, then our qualified opinions will have to count as contributing factors to what we think responsibility is: theirs, and ours.

Look at the person coming to lessons and try to key into their sense of responsibility. You will see it through their behavior and how they follow through. If you are counting on their having a sense of how to behave musically responsible, you are leaving out a major contributing factor to their success.

They may lack completely in the ability to motivate, discipline, be responsible for their role in being a ,usic student, as we know a music student to be.

Students don't start by already having the attributes, they have to be put into place if they are missing.

So where would their growth and development come from if they had none, and did not know they had none?

What if they began to feel something was missing in their background but they didn't know what it was?

Why would we want to withhold from them the tools that they need to be successful on their musical path.

They may be lacking the "glue", John. And, I think teachers have and share some of it with their beginning students or transfer students.

Betty

A teacher responsability is also to explain concepts. If the student just have to "learn" the material, than he/she could simply stay at home and learn books by heart. But it's the responsability of the teacher to explain concepts in a way that they can be understood. It's very possible for a concept to be so badly explained to be impossible to understand. If what you say were true, then everyone could be a teacher, because everyone can be a provider of notions memorized from books. But being a teacher is clearly more than that and entails the ability to explain and make things clear, to make complex concepts immediate to grasp and apply.

I know a literature university teacher who always tell me the first thing he questions, when his students don't seem to understand, is himself and his method; not the students; which might as well suffer from the impossibility to learn because of the way he present concepts to them.

If a teacher repeats concepts exactly as they're written in the books, making them hard to grasp, always having a monotone way to explain things and expecting students to simply learn by memorization (rather than thinking) then he is practically useless, because he's providing nothing more than the books already do. If teachers still exist (even if we have textbooks and methods available) is because they're supposed to provide facilitation and enlightening explanations, of the concepts contained in those books.

Besides such a teacher would also sabotage the learning of the students, because they would be compelled to learn conceps explained in a uncomprehensible manner, while at the same time ignoring the possibility to find their own explanation, by using their own creative and critical thinking.

At least when I find out a book is so badly written to be useless for my learning, I can simply look for another book till I find a good one.

Again, Danny, I don't think it's a question of the teacher not teaching, especially in the OP. More it is a sense that as the teacher keeps trying everything under the sun and the student still hasn't done their part by being teachable. Both need to keep striving, and the teacher I think will often have to instigate the learning process by being inspiring and encouraging. But when the student doesn't ever come along, what then? Is the teacher just not being entertaining enough? At what point is it up to the student to learn?

Danny, it appears we're talking past each other.

The question posed was: How can I help my students when they don't practice???

Before she skewers herself, or flagellates herself unduly, we need to ask when and where teachers' responsibilities for learning end, and by extension, where does the student's responsibility begin (and the parents' as well)

Although I wouldn't throw in the towel at this stage, it does sound very much like the learning problem is not the teaching of the subject so much, but the lack of daily preparation by the students, coming to lessons completely unprepared.

What do you recommend she do now? Go to the student's home every day and monitor their practice? Have them tape their daily practice?

Just as an aside (Fingle's Cave is on the radio, and is whipping me up) I'll mention that no student leaves my studio unable to play newly assigned material. If they return the following week showing little or no improvement, then our first item of discussion is on their lack of practice, their goals, their time management. The discussion is not on my teaching, because that's not the issue.

And at what point is it up to the teacher to be more stimulating and trigger interest?

There are questions without fixed answered. It depends on each case.

But I want to point out that even the most brilliant mind, might appear dull and stupid, when casticaged in a non-stimulating environment, forced to learn things in a monotone way without thinking and having to learn banal concepts which don't challenge his/her mind. In fact, the more brilliant a mind is, the more it will seem to lack interest or resist the teaching process when it seems to involve banal and poorly explained concepts. There are even researches that show that many school students who can't stand still, who resist doing their homework and can't pay attention in the classroom, far from being lazy and stupid, are actually in need of using "higher thinking processes" and having more meainingfull and in-context information.

There's no doubt both the student and the teacher must be willing to put passion and interest in the whole process; but the role of the student has been discussed millions of times. The role of the teacher, in preventing the student mind to consciously shut down (the brain is marvellous, it consciously doesn't learn things when they seem to make no sense or serve no purpose, it resists garbage brilliantly) seems to me like a different interesting perspective, which can't be dismissed as irrelevant by claiming "it all depends on the student".

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I think there's no universal answer for this question. It is to answered on a case by case basis.



Personally I think that often a lack of motivation to practice is due to the inability to practice properly. If you make your practice a boring autopilot, of course it will seem like a torture. I wouldn't go through such torture myself because I don't believe you can learn to express yourself artistically by suffering through the whole process. Being able to express ourselves musically, rather than robotically translating notes from the sheet to the keyboard, in my opinion comes also from having a musically stimulating learning experience. In other words I believe the path to reach a goal, might matter even more than the goal itself.

A practice on the other hand must be seen like a challenge with ourselves. A moment to use our mind to analyze the problems in our pieces in order to feel the thrill of being able to play what you weren't able to play.

Practicing piano shouldn't be different than practicing with your skateboard. But why many would consider practicing with skateboard far more enjoyable? Why they can spend hours doing it without realizing so much time has passed?

The reason is that they experience their skateboard practicing as a challenge, a mental as well as physical training in order to improve. Piano practicing is seen as mindless repetition.

If piano practicing were mindless repetition I would have abandoned piano playing many years ago. Fortunately piano practicing is exactly like practicing for sports. It is equally beautifully stimulating and challenging and the results, and the thrill that come from them, are tangible.

So I think a first problem to investigate is whether students know how to practice, whether students have learned to make their piano practicing a mindfull and pleasant experience.
If they don't, not even forcing them to practice everyday would make a difference, as I believe mindless practice does more harm than good.

So if a student comes to lessons without having practiced, I would make that lessons a practice lesson. I would show the student how to practice, so that it is a mindfull experience you look forward too, rather than a mindless torture you try to eschiew. Then I would ask the student to practice at home what he/she has learned at lesson. I would explain to the student that repetition makes sense only as long as you repeat the right notes and the right motions and the right coordination, otherwise it is counteproductive.

I would also ask the student why he/she hasn't practice. The answer might reveal the real problem. The student might claim that it is boring. Then I would show him/her it is not supposed to be boring. The student might claim that he/she had not enough time. Then I would suggest time-saving strategies and explain you don't even have to practice everyday and that quality is always more important than quantity. Some student just wrongly believe that if they don't have X hours at X time to dedicate to piano practicing, they might as well skip it altogether. I would explain to them that even 10 minutes of mindfull practice while waiting for dinner would count. They might as well as good reasons for not having practiced and I would explain to them that it's normal sometimes to be unable to do something. If students are scolded even when they have good reasons to miss their practicing, then they will develop a rebellious attitude against practicing. On the other hand when they see the teacher is comprehensive, there's a motivation to practice even more. They might explain to me that they fell awkward when practicing and that they don't know where to begin. Again I would explain them how to approach the first moments of practicing. I would explain to them that for many people of whatever age, the hard part is starting to do something. Once you have started you realize you're actually enjoying what you're doing, so the trick is resisting the early usually umotivated procrastination.
The might explain to me that they don't really enjoy piano to begin with or don't enjoy it anymore. Then I would suggest the option of quitting and finding their real passion in life.

Eventually I might as well consider the chance that the my teaching method, my explanations, my elaborations might prevent the student from feeling motivated to practice. I might as well consider the chance that I don't even know what's the best way to practice. In other words, I will never rule out self-criticism and question my own responsabilities and methods. I believe in changing what doesn't work, including changing my mind when more convincing evidences come up. Always questioning ourselves is not only positive for the student, but for our intellectual richness as well. Why missing a chance to improve, when improving is such a good experience?

Remember, Danny lives in Fantasy Land where all students love to practice piano every day.

No. I live in a world where students can learn to enjoy practice by better understanding how to take the most of it and make it a mindfull pleasant experience rather than dull mindless repetition and understanding that practicing everyday is not even necessary and that quality matters more than quantity. Guess what, it's the same world you live in.

I think what Danny is expressing is that fact that we, as teachers, can very easily fall into the trap of blaming studentss for being lazy, irresponsible and so on because we, as teachers, have become smug.

In other words, it is very easy for me to lash out at students, at least in my own mind, showing resentment, because students are resisting what I am teaching.

I do, however, believe that students themselves also have the responsibility of checking their attitudes, commitment, and so on.

There are times when people of all ages fall into the trap of expecting improvement, or results, when not putting in the effort to achieve these things.

My view is that communication needs to remain open. If I stop listening to my students, things go down hill very quickly.

They also need to continue listening to me.

It cuts both ways.

I would say that you are probably doing everything you can to help them. If they are not responding then you have either not yet found the way to reach them or they can't be reached. Time will reveal which it is.

The most important thing is not what you can do to help them but what you can do to help yourself.

At the moment you are letting it get you down. You are seeing it as failure. The whole situation is negative and you need to turn that around.

Is it possible for you to see it as a challenge like Betty would?

Can you be thankful that you have students who are paying their fees and keeping you in business?

Can you accept that it might not be your fault and that you are fulfilling your side of the relationship?

Can you focus on the small steps they might make?

If it is not how you want it to be can you release them from your studio without feeling guilty?

It is easy for this kind of situation to consume you. Try not to let it come to that.

It seems to me that we keep changing the subject. We're not talking about listening or communications, we're talking about students preparing assignments at home. Students know what they need to do when they leave the studio. There are some, hopefully few, students, many supported by parents who have a false idea of how to learn and advance in piano (or music or art in general), who go home, throw their music bag in the corner, and grab it quickly on the way out to their next "class."

By the way, not to pillory anyone, but I don't think anyone is blaming students for being lazy, irresponsible and so on here. We're trying to focus on who has the problem and what is the solution. Chueh is only having this problem with certain transfer students, not with all her students. I don't think it's fair to assume that her teaching lacks spark, verve, flair, and isn't motivational.

Exactly, Gary. It does cut both ways. And with a teacher like our OP, who is trying all sorts of different ways to reach these kids, it's very hard to say if she's making it boring. To assume that is the case is not fair. I don't think I give boring lessons either, but how fun can it be when a student doesn't practice? What are lesson then, but practice, the very thing they avoided all week?

Chris is right, you have to try to make something positive out of this, even if it might mean lower standards. Or, you keep your standards and recommend the students to another teacher that might be more compatible.

When I think about the students I had this evening there are a couple who are not that serious and don't practice much. Then I have a couple of average students, a new beginner who is very enthusiastic and an advanced student who is auditioning for music colleges at the moment.

Some of them find what I have to say interesting and stimulating. The ones who don't practice probably find me extremely boring. I could say the same about them! I am just me. I do the best I can but at the end of the day I can't make them do anything they don't want to do. I can show them how to practice mindfully knowing that if they do so it will be rewarding. The problem is that one persons mindful experience is another persons mindless torture. You just need to learn to take the rough with the smooth.

Don't take it personally.

I'm seldom worried about lowering standards. There are times when I shudder at the thought of some of my students being taken as representatives of what I'm trying to teach, but frankly I think that is my ego getting way out of control. At such times I take myself too seriously.

There are some students who are just not "fits" for me. I can feel it in lessons. There is something that is not working quite right. I feel grumpy. I try very hard to hide it, but I think in the end other people often pick up on much more of what is going through our minds than we would like to admit.

If the student is not a good fit for me, I'm not a good fit for the student. Sometimes this can change. If it does, it takes a little work on both ends, though the adjustment on the student end may be more subconscious.

With other students I just have a feeling of things "clicking". There is always a chance that things will take off in the future. I have a feeling of possibilities being open.

As a student I remember liking certain teachers and wanting to work hard for them. The subject was not always something I would normally be interested in. I remember on year in junior high having a social studies teacher that I really enjoyed. I got straight As in that class. I had the highest grades of all his students that year.

I hated a chemistry teacher in high school. She was one of the meanest human beings I've ever had to be around. I was interested in chemistry, but I almost failed the course. Maybe someone I was unable to get along with in lessons left feeling the same way about me.

I try to turn this idea around, as a teacher. I know I can't be that "special teacher" for every student. Some students will do better with a different teacher. I simply want to be the best possible teacher for as many of my students as possible.

i have quite the assortment of students. I guess i am the dregs of the piano teaching profession.

1. One blind young woman - no charge.. it's interesting teaching her. She works pretty darn hard when she is not learning vocal scores. She's an excellent soprano.

2. one girl age 14. I trade piano lessons for diving team fees. I asked her how much she practiced a week and she said 45 minutes. I about died. she's so busy. She's ADD and I'm teaching her a chord method so she can play with her father who plays the guitar and sings.

3. one girl age 8. Her mother died and I'm teaching her for free. She's actually my most traditional student. .. a good worker but emotionally challenged.

3. one girl age 10. I trade lessons for her with guitar lessons from her father for my son. She's actually a quick learning beginner and very comfortable with practicing and reading music.

Money earned per week? Zero.

Apple, Oun, what are the costs of guitar and diving lessons? If you would normally be paying for those, then you can count those 2 students as ones that you've "made money", or rather, saved money on other expenses, which amount to the same thing (unless you're at the point where you have no money for food, then there's a problem!).Everyone has a story, and I think a good teacher will find out that story (at least to the extent that it affects the student in their studies) and make adjustments to their teaching accordingly.

I wouldn't give this for granted. In my experience the majority of students don't know how to practice and even few teachers lacked the right knowledge about efficient practicing when they were students.

I would insist on asking to students who don't practice, what their problem with practicing is.
Chance are they feel practicing like an awkward burden, they don't have enough consecutive free time or they don't even know when to begin.

Teaching how to practice, maybe even using few lessons to make student practice the way they should do it at home, is very important; expecially with those who don't seem comfortable with the idea of practicing.

I certainly appreciate all of your input. Each one has a good point, which i will put it into great consideration.

Although i don't think that the way I teach is boring at all, it can be seen totally differently by others. If we all know what we are lacking, then we would improve everything already. I have made vocal sounds, gesture, and/or movements to imitate how the students play which i ask them to improve. I show them the difference between what's a good round full sound and the way they hit the piano or whatever. I always explain WHY and HOW. Those students who improve and make good progress are always laughing and giggling in the lessons, with the attitutde of never missing my piano lessons.

On the other hand, those who do not practice can never appreciate my humanizing the notes on staff, singing the correct notes compared to the wrong notes, drawing things to make the students reminded what they are supposed to do, and etc. I think I make enough fun for the lessons, yet maybe it is not enough for those who don't appreciate.

I have showed my students how to practice too. Practicing is not about "duty," as if it's done, when playing the piece 3 times. Practice is about finding where they have trouble and aim at the trouble place and finding why and how the mistake is made. Mastering a section or a part at a time, and then adding one more when the part is flawless.

But again, perhaps, I have not stressed it enough.... Anyway, I would keep trying and learning what i need to do while teaching.

I have learned a lot from the posts. They make me think and rethink.