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+1 good luck Elise

I wish I could have been a fly on the wall . . . .

I suspect all the teachers here are really pulling hard for you. Know I am.

All the students are pulling for her too

I'm sorry to hear that it did not go so great, but I'll keep my fingers crossed.

It started off with my dad saying he wanted to know how things were going, etc. T said that he thought I was progressing “fairly well” even though he would have wanted a faster pace especially that I am doing the theory course at school and he does not need to do too much of that during lesson time. But he knows about school work etc.. so he thinks that I would not have any problems making up for it during the summer session, if I am willing to work hard etc..
Sounded so regular..like all was fine, which was kind of shocking to me..
Then dad said something to the effect that I had expressed some concerns and he asked me to explain.
So I blurted out my 2 liner, which I do not recall too well, but basically that I was having a hard time focusing and performing during the lessons because I felt that things were too tense and I that I felt that he was not too satisfied with how I am doing ,which made me more anxious.. something like that. I could not really tell him he was a stormy mean machine, not with my dad sitting there anyway..
So he said that “this was the oldest excuse in piano history, and that if I was practicing more things would be just fine”.. (I thought he had said they WERE fine in the beginning, so I was now a bit confused).
So then he said something about “overlap in transitions” to a teen ager [insert him lecture about teen-age hood] and to a more advanced level in piano.. and that this is often a difficult period that can “make you or break you” and that is why he has been “PATIENT” (wha?).. so I got a little mad inside and I said that I did not think he was very patient and that I now do not look forward to his lessons and I did not “respond well” (that was a prepped word) to his method. SO he said that he thinks that I DO respond to his method!! And that his goal was to help me be more self-disciplined,. that he knew his assignments were too long but he wanted me to handle them regardless of other obligations.. this here became a little too crazy.. I was only hearing that I was being set up to not do well since he is overloading me with work on purpose, but he kept going on about discipline, how it is the most important element in all “we” do… Then my dad chimed in, and on they went trilling in german (I call it the “Heimat talk”).. It was as if I was no longer in the room. I tried to collect my thoughts and say something else but it did not feel like there was much else to say that could make a difference. SO I tried to get my dad’s attention to get back to the subject.. and they said that “let’s see how the summer session goes. You will have more free time to dedicate for your study.. there would be lots of activities etc.. Then as I was trying to come out with one more thing to say like how I hated how he treats me, the fact that I skipped a recital came up again and he went on and on about how unacceptable and undisciplined etc.. (I had heard that some few thousand times and mea culpa’ed out on it)..but it took my momentum away.. and then it was over.
I did explain more at home, that I basically did not want him as a teacher anymore, but I think my dad is not convinced that I should and he thought it is a good idea to see how the summer goes first.
Voila.. TOTALLY Unfair

Alles klar!

what is clear??

I am very sorry to hear that. What concerns me now is whether you would begin losing interest in piano if this were your only possible teacher.

If that is a risk, a reprise (at summer's end?) will be in order.

If you are undecided about whether to major in piano in college or something else, now's a good time to ask piano majors about their school experience. That may clinch in your mind how important it is to continue studying piano at the pace you've got now. This teacher may be appropriate for prospective piano majors, but not so good for someone else? That's my thought.

We have this, by Chris H.:

From your post, Elise, it sounds to me that your teacher believes in you, so he expects much greater things. You have a great teacher. Maybe you don't like his methods, but underneath the surface, he really does care. I don't understand what more you want.

Your teacher has offered you a suggestion, that you practise a little more - especially during the summer. Why don't you try that before you quit?

Its too bad the meeting did not go as you had hoped.

Its really very difficult to make an accurate assessment of the situation without having witnessed the entire conversation. From the little bits and pieces you've stated, here is my advice.

Look deep within yourself and determine what you truly want (not your teacher or you Dad). Are you happy with being a casual player or do you really want to excel? I think its an important point. From what I can gather, your teacher seems to have it in his mind it is the latter. Maybe in your mind, its the former, in which case your goal and his goal do not align.

If you do have the drive and determination to excel, although you can't see it, I believe I can begin to understand your teacher's perspective and approach. Excel means that you must have the drive and determination to do what others (the average ones) cannot or are not willing to do. It goes beyond the mediocre or average effort and takes a lot of hard work. There is a price to paid, and a big one at that. That is why most people do not rise to the creme of the crop - they are not willing to pay the price. Your teacher seems be attempting to push you in that direction, referring to "discipline." In not so many words, he is telling you to stop bellyaching and "suck it up," if you have any desire to be better than the others.

I'm not sure what the summer will do. Did you feel the same way last summer, when you also had more time? I think you have to ask yourself the hard question:

"Even if you disagree with your teacher's approach, if it can bring you the results you desire, are you willing to continue to bear the unpleasantness?" (i.e. pay the price)

And of course, the next question is...

"Do you believe his methods will produce the desired results?"

Again, I could be wrong, but that's what the situation looks like to me, based on incomplete information.

Maybe you can show your father this thread, so he can get a more comprehensive understanding of the situation and help to guide you accordingly.

Elise B, you have my sympathies.

I thought she was quite clear on what she wanted:

• Not to feel like she's drowning in assigned work.
• To have him not get all mad and yell about every second measure when she's not perfect
• To walk out of lessons NOT feeling like a loser
• His understanding that she has other academic requirements that require her attention and may not allow her to dedicate as much time to the piano as he would like

Honestly, she shouldn't have to ask for these things.

Coolkid70: I will give her teacher the benefit of the doubt and assume he's a good teacher. But the fact remains that she is unhappy.

I would have hoped a dialogue could have brought them to an understanding, but from the sounds of it, she tried to communicate her feelings, and the adults responded with we-know-better-than-you.

I've yet to meet a single person who learned more from a teacher they loathed, than from a teacher they loved. There are lots of other great teachers in NYC, so I'm sad that she's seemingly stuck with one that makes her learning experience miserable.

Mechanical Doll:

A fair point.

Although I did not say it (and I don't think anyone really needs to), I think that it is simply up to Elise to do what she needs to do. I just wanted to reiterate the alternative to quitting - it would really be a shame if she regretted this.


One of my teachers from high school made a remark about student-teacher relationships: when students are younger, they tend to see teachers more like "an adult who makes me do work" and less like people. So, it would be understandable for a student of a young age to feel that any particular teacher is doing everything against him, which obviously can stir up perhaps an even nonexistent situation.

Maybe I didn't really explain it clearly enough, originally, but the point of my post was to ask the original poster to consider this type of scenario and make sure this wasn't happening.

But to tell you the truth, I don't think I would have bought a word I just said when I was fourteen.

To miaeih:

You're absolutely correct about scientists and engineers being musicians. In a previous place I lived, members of the scientific community included national piano competition winners, principal soloists in the city's opera company, first-chair players in the city's symphony orchestra.

In other words, Elise - doing science (or medicine) is not exclusive of high levels of achievement as a musician and active performing life. In fact there's a good bit of evidence to support the opinion that music improves one's science and math skills, and vica versa. Both require training both sides of the brain, you see.

You don't want to teach? I bet you do some of it even now, maybe without realizing it. We all do, in some capacity, even even when not formally someone's "teacher." But we understand what you mean - at this point, you don't see yourself focusing on education as your life's work.

Hi Elise,

I'm sorry to hear that the conversation went so badly. I have always thought that lessons should be enjoyable, so I have been consistent in recommending that you find another teacher, if possible. The bad news is that I'm guessing your parents will be unlikely to consider such a request until summer is over. The good news, if there is any, is that your teacher is now aware that you are unhappy, and unhappy enough to the point that you had your father join you for that conversation. It is possible--probably not likely, but possible--that your teacher will make an attempt to change his behavior and that things will get better. For your sake, I hope they do. Whether this guy is a great teacher or not is immaterial to the fact that you do not like lessons with him.

If things do not improve over the next couple of weeks, I suggest you do some proactive searching around and gather recommendations for other good teachers in your area. Then go back once again to your parents, explain you love piano and do not wish to abandon your studies completely, but emphasize that you cannot continue with the current teacher. Then tell them that you have found an alternative teacher who comes highly recommended by X, and that you wish to change teachers.

I wish you the greatest luck. I would hate to see you turn away from piano completely because of this.

In my eyes the conversation went very well. Everyone (the teacher during the conversation and certainly in the "german" part, where we see the many advantages of knowing German , and you afterwards with your father) made clear what you both want: you want another teacher, he does not want to bend his rules for you. So the cards have been laid nicely on the table in front of your father, which is very important.

The kitchen is hot. He says so and says that in order to stay in the kitchen, you must not be afraid of the heath. He cannot tell you that if you cannot stand the heat you should get out of the kitchen, because that would be rude toward your father (though he might have said something to the extent to him in sweet german words, if such any exist.. ).
Your father on the other hand (understandably) wants to see how you stand the heat before deciding about the kitchen, this is fully reasonable and in my eyes you do him no justice by calling the situation "unfair": he obviously weighs the discomfort you have (and which you will always, always have in life: at work, in the family, with friends) with the obvious talent and competence of this man, and does not want that his daughter loses on such a wonderful learning possibility.

Time will tell.

I would like to repeat what I wrote in my first message: unpleasant as they are, this situations build a young person's spine. I find not only the teacher valuable, but the situation too.

In case, it might be worth talking with your father along the lines that, as *he* wants to keep you with the teacher and *the teacher* does demand a higher level of commitment, in order to deliver this level without losing all private life something else will have to give; perhaps together with your father you will identify some extracurricular activities which should better, at this point, being sacrificed on the altar of the piano.

Best of lucks.

How true. A 30-year old surgeon and accomplished pianist was profiled recently in the Science section of the New York Times.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/health/20prof.html?scp=1&sq=piano+and+medicine&st=nyt

Since it seems that you will have to put up with your teacher some more, try you best not to internalize the yelling (note that I said not internalizing vs ignoring =P). In many cultures, yelling IS how teaching is done. That doesn't mean the student is not doing well; this is even indicated by "the talk" that you are doing better than you thought you were. In fact, sometimes only good students receive the yelling.

...and yes, it will be hard to do.


((We could probably do a study on the responses so far and checking the posters' background))

Lest we forget, or for those who do not work regularly with middle school students, passionate speaking by adults is often equated with yelling.

I teach middle school. This happens every day. Thank God there are only 4 school days left before Summer Break. Can't wait to get a batch of better students come September.

Right on!

Elise,
I want to chime in and tell you that my heart goes out to you. I was in a very similar situation as a child. If you have time and patience to put up with a long story read away....

I was a gifted child musician. I taught myself to play at age 4 and convinced my parents that I could do lessons even though I was not reading yet. I started lessons at 4 1/2 and learned to read just before I turned 5. I loved piano. Loved it to the exclusion of all else. I would play all day if given a choice and in the beginning I did play for hours since home work was non-existent at that time. I started competing at age 7 and was told by adjudicators and teachers that I was well on my way to becoming a great pianist.

There was a problem though. I despised my teacher. She was "old school" as it is said these days. She was very strict, unhappy (in my eyes) and took the joy of playing right out of me when I was there. She would rap my hands with a ruler if I used the wrong fingering, she taped blocks of styrofoam to my sides so that I would not bring my elbows to close to my body. She even stopped my performance in the middle of a recital to criticize what I was playing and made me start again... 4 TIMES! before she was satisfied. Now, understand I was between the ages of 5-10 when this was happening. I did not have the communication skills to express my distress with what was going on. I could not put it into words at the time but now I look back and say I felt humiliated and degraded with that type of teaching.

I'm not sure even today if my parents would have changed anything if they had known. Everyone was so convinced that I was doing so well that I'm not sure they would have heard me. I think they would have heard a child complaining and feeling life is unfair and they would have seen someone having an opportunity to do something that not everyone gets to do.

So now jump ahead a few years. I am in the 13-15 year old range. We moved and I had a new teacher. This teacher was ok. I still was unhappy but mainly because she did not get me into competing. I pushed myself hard and I felt she held me back. Then I did what now I consider to be the worst move of my life. I dropped it. I didn't look for a new teacher, I didn't talk about the problems, I ran away. I missed it everyday of my life but did not feel I could go back to it. I wanted this other 'wonderful' life that all my other teenage friends had. Except now I was depressed. My life went downhill... another long story, and it took my 13 years to get back into piano.

I have had many health issues, including fracturing my spine a few years ago but I am determined not to give up this time. I'm no where near as good as I once was but with time and diligence I have found a peace being able to play once again. As an adult, I knew what I wanted in a teacher. I interviewed many and finally found someone who I respect and admire. She pushes me hard, does not let me get away with anything, but loves music, loves teaching and can make me laugh to tears during a lesson.

ok, if you have made it this far please keep reading, I promise I am almost done

Elise, I know this is a hard time for you right now. You are figuring out who you are and what you want and that is not an easy time in life (for anyone!) Your frustration with your teacher is exactly that, YOUR frustration. It does not mean he is a bad teacher (and I don't believe you have said that) just not the right teacher for you. I hope that you will continue in your pursuit of piano. I hope that you will not let this potential bad experience ruin what might be a lifelong love. I truly hope that your family will hear and understand what you are saying to them. And maybe, just maybe,you will have to wait to you are an adult to find that right teacher, I truly hope that is not the case.

Good luck to you. Keep giving us updates. I want to know what happens