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Really? I see wonderful communication happening in this thread. Its really a good one -- all kinds of people offering your their many years (years you do not yet have) of wisdom trying to help you. I'm sorry you don't see that. Could it be you just don't like what is being communicated?

Believe it or not, these words reveal a lot about your personality, mindset and attitude and possibly, are the source of the problems you're experiencing. Do you face other obstacles in your studies with the 'anyway, whatever' mindset or do you put your best foot forward and deal with them head on?

You'll probably consider this another scolding, but really, its help (all of these posts are), in disguise. Try to see beyond the surface and understand the intent, and I think things will start looking up for you.

Ann in Kentucky wrote: "....I think the problem is that working with your teacher is a joyless experience. It's not that you're asking for an easier teacher, but you want one who will share in your joy in learning. I think it's reasonable to ask your parents to allow you to find a competent teacher who encourages you and shares your joy in the learning process."


Thanks for your thoughtful and responsive comment. Taken together with Elise's posts, that's communication, in my opinion.

I am amazed and disappointed to see the rather harsh judgments that some of us seem to be making towards Elise. I believe that most of us would take an adult who expressed fear and emotional distress at her word. Because Elise is a teenager, she is sometimes being treated here as if she is primarily a whining, lazy, cowardly kid.

Don't we all remember someone scary and unkind from our childhoods? When I was a teenager, I had an old science teacher who was just plain mean---for no good reason except that he apparently had personal problems and took them out on his pupils. I remember him literally screaming at me, demanding that I obey him when he was mumbling so badly that I couldn't even hear what he was asking me to do. I was honestly afraid of what this volatile, out-of-control teacher might do next. He had such a hair-trigger temper that there was every reason to think that, if I confronted him, he would do something even worse. Adult teachers are authority figures to young people---not equals whom they're comfortable confronting. Especially if they are already afraid of further anger and punishment.

I believe that it is also unfair to imply that if Elise had a real passion for music, she would be grateful to have this particular teacher. It is part of the job of a teacher to nurture our passions---not wear them down by destroying the joy of playing and learning. Remember, Elise isn't asking to quit piano. She would just like someone with a different approach. Sometimes a given teacher, even a very talented one, just isn't the right fit for a particular pupil. Why not see if a better fit can be found?

Personally, I think that Elise has shown a lot of courage in joining an adult forum, unsure of the reception she might get, and sticking with it despite our forum's not-entirely-supportive responses.

faucon, I agree. Maybe John's right (he very often is ), but in this case I'd prefer to take Elise's word for it that the problem is what she says it is.

I never said the teacher should be abusive. But I was trying to point out to Elise that perhaps she should try to view what she considers to be hyper-critical behavior as just maybe something less terrrorizing than she currently does. Just seeking to offer her a little perspective that, maybe at her age, she hasn't yet considered. FWIW I seriously doubt if it's literally "every other measure." She was probably using some language to make a point. On the other hand, there are some teachers who are just not right for some students. This may be one of those cases.

Oh - and BTW, I never suggested SHE should practice 4 to 5 hours a day! I said 2 to 3. I said that **I** needed 4 to 5 a day. Maybe Elise is much more talented than I am and can do everything that needs 4 hours for me, in a half hour. But still one hour is clearly not enough to make the kind of progress that will satisfy The Teacher, so either she needs to spell out her goals and this could mean working with someone else who will adapt to them, or she needs to find another hour somewhere. It's also possible that Elise's goals are not those that might have been communicated to The Teacher by a parent. Often parents' goals diverge significantly from the child's, and sometimes it is really hard to tell the parents that you like to play but you don't want to learn in a way that makes you sick of it.

Alternatively, just maybe Elise can ask The Teacher to help her to optimize the time she DOES spend practicing to get the most for her 60 minutes. It may be she is not approaching practice in the most efficient way for what he wants her to accomplish. A teacher is supposed to not only teach how to play, but also how to practice. It would be hard for him to interpret such a query as disrespectful and he just might appreciate this kind of initiative on her part. On the other hand, if her emotions have escalated to the point where she just shudders at the thought of walking into his studio, she should go teacher shopping.


I don't think we're going to influence her school district's homework policy on this forum, and with the current No Child Left Unstressed rules, most districts look a little cockeyed at something so superfluous as MUSIC that won't help them meet the testing requirements. Tsk.

Wow, I don't understand how everyone jumped to the conclusions they jumped to.

I got the total opposite from Elise's first post. I found her to be very eloquent at 14 and very proper in expressing herself. She gave me the impression of a young woman who knows what she wants and expects.

5 years of taking lessons and dreaming of becoming a pianist is not a show of someone who is not committed.

I had a friend who was German (no offense) and had to terminate the friendship due to harsh harsh behavior and controlling situations. It almost drove me mad. I know it seems like a stereotype but it just so happens that I had the same situation (my friend wasn't a teacher just someone who wanted to rule everybodys life) and I kind of know where she's coming from.

I also have friends with kids who spend 3 hours at least doing homework. It depends on the School and the teachers but I hear it a lot from people I know with kids.

I didn't read all the posts because I was really ashamed at how everyone jumped on her without giving her the benefit of the doubt just because she's 14.

She seems very mature and in control for a 14 year old.

I might be wrong as well but who am I to judge.

I wish you luck and all I can say is whatever you decide continue studying the piano don't give up your dream.

Oxfords Gal,

This has been one of the more interesting series of posts on the forum, and most of us have sincerely wanted to help Elise with her problem, but as they say, when the onion was peeled away . . . .

Most of the posters here didn't jump to any conclusions either, rather, based on very limited information, they reached measured conclusions. This is an important distinction. The teachers reached deep into their memory banks to students with similar issues and tried to find answers for Elise. Several students have contributed ideas from their recent past dealing with trials and tribulations of the teen years. All were very helpful to the discussion.

Five years of an adult taking piano lessons is not the same as five years of a young student. Elise began while she was 9, probably 3rd grade. At that age, children are generally highly motivated to please their parents, and this pattern continues until somewhere in the middle school years. At this age, they are becoming increasingly independent and at some point, the age varies of course, they are suddenly very independent, making their own decisions about what pleases them, and the motivation to practice to please their parents has all but disappeared.

Now, this increasing maturity of the student is coupled with an increasing ability of the student at the piano. That is, they are well out of the elementary materials and well into intermediate literature. Growth and capabilities are expanding quickly, but now the student must come to the piano each day very much focused, very inner motivated, and most certainly not with the attitude of "do I have to?"

Elise has been with the same teacher now for 5 years. He obviously sees something in her that she doesn't recognize, or more likely, something which isn't all that important to her.

To give Elise the benefit of the doubt, I'm going to say that she really does like piano; at least, she likes the idea of being able to play the piano, so is willing to continue her studies.

Many posters provided well thought out suggestions, so I'm going to leave it at that, at least for now.

I'm going to jump ahead here, and discuss the problem from a teacher's perspective. We have all had many young teens who are loaded with talent, and leave the lesson all enthused, but come back the following week ill-prepared. What happens? What can we do? Why does this happen? Is it that the student is being highly motivated in the teacher's presence, but upon arriving home, is now distracted by the hundreds of interesting and distracting facets of life and activities? What obligations do we have to the parents, who are paying for the lessons? What obligations do we have to the wandering student? What obligations do we have to ourselves and our sanity when dealing with young teens?

I'm a bit too lazy to read all these subsequent posts but it would seem you've been getting the sticky end of the lollypop. Keep your chin up! Teachers often travel in packs but some of us are rooting for you.

Ahhh...the sticky end of the lollipop. A recap:

"your parents are making an amazing sacrifice...but the magic is not going to happen. If you love music generally, take up another instrument..."

"...it is unfortunate, Elise, that you could not find the courage to have the talk directly with your teacher. Essentially, you have sent your father to do the dirty work..."

"Elise, you thought our mild comments constituted a scolding?....Now my sympathies are totally with your teacher! I can see it now - your dad and teacher getting a good laugh out of this."

"Communication is a very fine art that many people your age do not understand. Spend a little effort making sure it is right."

"I see wonderful communication happening in this thread. Its really a good one -- all kinds of people offering your their many years (years you do not yet have) of wisdom trying to help you. I'm sorry you don't see that. Could it be you just don't like what is being communicated?"
_______________________________________

And all of this directed at a young teenager.

If the public had to endure the likes of this to obtain a driver's license, would the car industry be in the same straits the piano industry finds itself?

Hey G#, thanks for doing the reading!

Well, criticism is fine, but constructive criticism would be more helpful. What do you recommend for Elise?

I'm glad you are interested in constructive criticism.

The short answer is to find another teacher. It's quite plain to see that the dynamic she's got with this teacher doesn't work. I hope she can express her concerns to her parents and that together they find someone suitable. She's a minor, so this isn't something she can do alone.

The fellow she's got now may be brilliant. It doesn't matter. I take it on faith that teachers are unique and not cogs on a wheel. Find what works and move on.

Ears burning? Comments were directed to g#maj!

Aren't we the people who look for win-win situations?

Shouldn't we be liking our teacher - student relationships?

All of us should know the time at which we should leave a situation, I think.

They say in your business plan, you must recognize and have a bottom line of when you decide to close your doors.

We need to know why we say "Yes" and why we say "No" and when we need to assert ourselves.

Betty

g#maj - that was the initial response by many, including myself, but as the thread developed, more detail became apparent. The chances are if her parents find her another teacher of similar caliber, she's going to run into the same set of problems.

Her teacher was demanding good posture while playing, no gum chewing while playing, more modest dress while at lessons. He was asking her to focus on her technique more carefully, so her tone production was more musical, he expected her practice to focus on the details of the music, not just getting the right notes, most of the time. And he was becoming frustrated (we think based on her side of the story) because she wasn't attending to these details.

Exactly how many good teachers do you know who would look past all this?

I used some detail (gum, dress, nails etc) to explain that the "atmosphere" in this studio leans towards control of all details. I learnt this teacher's rules 5 years ago the hard way and I have not had problems with that since. My main problem is with his method. As pieces are getting more difficult, learning now is more about how to be a musician. i already got the fundamental stuff down.In fact I was already reading music and playing fairly Ok before i started lessons (I did all of bastiens up to Level 4 at home with my dad/brother). I also take music theory and history courses at school. The teacher spent the whole first year "breaking my bad habits" and things got slowly owrse since, at least in my view. while I said i did learn a lot from him, the lessons are resulting in more and more anxiety which is not conducive to learning the subtler aspects of music. I know I need to practice more but I am not at liberty to cut classes or to change the way homework is handled at school or at home for that matter... Some of you condescendingly thought I was either an idiot who needs 5 hours to do a one hour homework (you would be kicked out of my school for such a "performance" in a heart beat) or a piano wanna be ("who likes the idea that she can play"). Well that is false. i am a straight A student and I have never had any problems with my school teachers for example, whom I admire and respect, and every one of them has very high standards and is very demanding. In fact one of the reasons I need to maintain a high performance at school is that I am not sure if I will major in music or something else.
I also want to mention that after reading many posts, i am amazed how "picky" adults are about choosing their piano teacher. they go on for paragraphs dissecting everything and talking about "comfort" this and "conmfortable" that. When a younger person says they are anxious and frozen around their teacher, they are told "it is in your best interest" and all but a few assume it is the student's fault.
This is not to say that i did not appreciate the advice nad words of encouragement. In fact it may well be one of teh reasons I finally managed to get my parent to address this situation hopefully.
Anyway, my dad says that I should come along when he speaks to my teacher next week. I am hoping there will be room for discussion although I kind of doubt it.

Hi Betty, well, tomorrow, we pull out of the driveway at 7 AM, and touch down in Portland at 7PM, then a 2 hr drive home to Olympia! The real fun part of traveling.

Working with middle school students can certainly be a trying experience for most teachers. It can either bring out the best in us, or the worst.

I would love to hear Elise's teachers comments. I bet we'd get an unrecognizable picture of Elise. Not because she's intensionally stating her case in a favorable light, but because at any age, but especially hers, it's very difficult to step outside yourself and see the greater picture.

We note that Elise's brother loves the teacher, so one question which should be asked is why? Is he bringing something to the lesson she isn't? What would that be? I respond highly favorably to students who come well prepared. I'm guessing that's true for most of us. Some of us probably have more/less tolerance for a continued pattern of students coming unprepared.

Remembering my 7th grade experience, I recall that the teacher I hated with a passion I came to revere, once I figured out that all I needed to do was be well prepared, to prepare an assignment ahead of where we were in class. It wouldn't surprise me at all that Elise & her teacher's relationship would change dramatically if her practice focused on the details he is teaching at her lesson.

Well, it's getting dark here, and we need a good night's rest, so must call it a night. Be back on Monday.

Well, Elise popped up with some new information while I was writing my last post, which sheds further light on the situation. Now I'll have to sleep on it!