Monica, you are quoting me, and I don't remember ever saying something like this. My philosophy is that as long as the student want's to be here I will teach them gladly.

Monida said: "Betty responded by saying that "she would want to be told" but she didn't specify what would happen if the student did not consult her or take her advice and she has stated before that "disloyal" students are released from her studio"

Those dismissals would be because (according to my policy) unresolved behavior problems, and lack of payment.

I do expect my parents and students to be contributing members to the overall family of piano students that I teach. We are the "studio" of people, not a studio of "real estate". Things go better where there is a democratic line to operating the studio for the highest goodness of all.

My students are expected as selected to participate in BPPS Recitals as well as MTNA - Mount Rainier Chapter Events. I help them prepare for other things they are doing, they have my support across the board. But, if they are taking on more than they can chew, or something that deviates from goals already established in lesson plans, we will not meet our goals for the year in the piano study. That is what I'm concerned about when they elect to do "extracurricular" things in piano.

All these suppositions and stabs are beginning to be outrageous ladies and gentlemen.

There is no polite phrasing going on as far as I can tell. I can feel the thumb to the noses of many people from here, saying "So, there!"

It's ridicule in my mind. Not just comment.

Betty Patnude

Betty, if you had a student who accepted invitations to play in a public situation against your advice, or without informing you at all, would you consider that an "unresolved behavior problem"? Would you dismiss such a student?

That was my understanding. I apologize if I am incorrect. I would appreciate a clear statement of your policy regarding that particular situation.

With a few isolated anecdotes you are trying to prove that the student is better off asking permission from the teacher to perform in public. Even if this were true, it is certainly not a requirement

You are also making the assumption that the student is too stupid to know what his/her abilities are and would blindly go into an impossible situation and make 'the teacher' look bad. I believe that in the vast majority of cases the student knows his/her abilities and would not enter into situations that are over their heads.

I certainly turned down several invitations I wasn't comfortable with.

It's the students choice.

No, differences of opinion, do not create a behavior problem.

Behavior problems are acting out without regard for others, being rude again and again, running around with lack of control, shouting, attention getting disruptive behavior. Behavior that could be seen an out of control anger. These things are accountable for and require intervention. There is a family of participants here.

Someone having an experience that is emotional or difficult will get all the sincere support they need.

I'm pleased that young musicians find ways to share their talents - it is not that at all. I celebrate that they elect to do this. I feel that a "discussion" about the pro's and con's of this is necessary between the student and the teacher and sometimes the parents.

In communication, I do not want to have unfinished issues - I want to know how much time they will have available to "do" lessons. I do sometimes here the "I haven't practiced" thing from students who are overloaded for one reason or another.

No one functions well when hitting overload. Learning to pace activities and what is agreed to is part of learning about your capacities and limitations. I "caution" to those.

Don't sports coaches and trainers have a lot of things they demand from their students? Why so much power in that realm, but totally out of the question for piano teachers to assert some conditions? I don't often have these problems - all of this thread seem suppositional. I don't have that much "drama" in my studio.

We are going off to a concert in a few minutes. I will try to find some of my personal writing about this "particular" situation from my philosophy of "What Music Education Is" or from my policy.

May I add that it appears to me that adult students seem to expect the worst possible situations from and with private teachers here in PWF.

Betty

Okay, do I have to paint some of you all a picture? Do recall some referring me to Rembrandt, but we won't mention names, right keystring.

So just for fun, here's my take on the post.

Let's say that Teacher A has a teaching style that produces bottles of lemonaid, while Teacher B (that's me) produces students who are bottles of beer (cause my style of playing has a kick to it!) Teacher A advertises lemonaid, but when a bottle of beer is found at their recital and some present got a taste of it and rather like it, Teacher A has advertised beer, but can only produces lemonaid. Teacher B does not get credit for that bottle. Those present who enjoyed this taste are not going to get beer, but will unknowingly get lemonaid cause that's that teacher's style of teaching.

Moral of the story, "Don't advertise beer if you can only produce lemonaid"!

Okay, it's late and just for the record, feel free to replace the word beer with "long Island Ice Tea" cause I prefer it to beer and this thread just got way too long!

Cheers!

Diane, audiences are not that dense. If I am at a lemon-ade stand and in the middle of the glasses of lemon-ade there's a frothy mug of beer, what do you think I'll do? Trot off to find where they hid the pub! One can also advertise what one can't do through contrast. All due respect to the young performer, however, who did the work.

keystring, you are correct that the two sides appear to be circling wagons and talking past one another.

However, unlike other adversarial threads I've seen in the past, I think this one may have actually had some positive results. Obviously a lot of students had no idea that some teachers would react so negatively to their playing in other settings. Perhaps some future misunderstandings will be avoided as a result of this thread. That would be good. Teachers who do not currently address their desires regarding extracurricular student performances explicitly in their discussions with students (and parents, if relevant) may wish to start doing so rather than assuming that the students will automatically know their preferences. Having such expectations laid out explicitly upfront would also help students (and parents) make the decision as to whether they're willing to abide by those policies. I'm sure a lot of families wouldn't mind being told that they should consult the teacher prior to playing in public anywhere. I would, but then again I'm the contrary libertarian type.

And perhaps some teachers here will reconsider their desire to control their students' performances, or at least consider the possibility that their desire to do so may stem just as much if not more from their own self-interest than the student's. And if such an insight is reached, it would suggest that perhaps it may be wise to figure out the best way to honor one's students' autonomy while still providing a quality education.

One thing that is abundantly clear, in this thread and in all the threads on this forum, is that the teachers here care deeply about their students' progress and have an admirable commitment to their profession that is gratifying to observe.

We seem to be sorting out the "men from the boys" ... those piano teachers with the noble guiding spirit of philanthropy and the skinny boys whose survival hangs on a primitive business sense.

Quality teaching is totally dependent on losing oneself in the magical insight of the subject at hand ... it is a philanthropic vocation ... there is no thought of business speculation .

It is not surprising therefore ... that some of our number have got scratchy about the boy who dared to play a piano in public.

At a time when we should be celebrating ... with the rousing finale to Tchaikowsky’s 1812 ... we appear to be donning sackcloth and ashes with a funereal post mortem ... fie on you chaps!

Yes. As an adult student, I look for a collaborative relationship with a teacher. I have specific goals. I will defer to their expertise on methodology to get there, that's what I'm paying for. But I'm neither paying for nor looking for aa disciple/master relationship.

A child's agenda may be different - or, maybe not.

A teacher who is concerned that additional performances may not be helpful is being responsible in addressing it. But a teacher in the same circumstances who feels hurt by disloyalty may have stepped outside that role. The criterion would be the amount of emotional involvement.

I think Monica is right in saying that some good can come out of airing these issues. I suspect some people, though not necessarily all, may come out with slightly adjusted views on the subject, or at least some insights that they had not considered before. That's certainly true for me.

I guess I'm a radical centrist on the topic.

I can certainly understand Diane's surprise and consternation at finding out that one of her students has been performing in another teacher's recitals. This violates just about any small group behavioral norm I can imagine. If btb thinks this reaction is primitive, he's entitled to his opinion, however idiosyncratic it may be.

Yet without intent to deceive, the sin may be venial, and correctible.

On the other hand, I could not abide a teacher who sought complete control of my son's musical life outside the studio. The reputation argument is not a trump card to be played relentlessly in all situations. Well, if a teacher thought so, s(he) would not be his teacher for long.

These days we don't even tell her about many of the things he does. But we use some common sense. If he plays an introduction in church it's just another performance opportunity. We don't need to seek her blessing or permission. In part, that is because I too can judge whether he is ready, and I too have no interest in sending him into situations where he is unready or likely to fail. Yet I think a reasonable person would think it rude, to say the least, if I programmed him into a competition, or some other public venue that would indeed reflect upon her reputation, without her approval.

Folks, I'm trying something. There are two issues in this thread. One is the formal ethical mostly teacher-teacher aspect or recitals, representation etc. and especially related to formal performances.

The other is teacher relationships to students and parents in terms of performances, freedom of choice etc. I suspect it will be more comfortable if this second issue had its own thread where those wishing to discuss it can. I had the hairbrained idea of creating such a thread and here it is: The other "performances" thread

Can this work?

Bottom line for me, this is why I teach so my students can play... anywhere they dearly want.

I do not own them, nor do I want to own them.

Music is to be shared; it is an art not a sport.

I just think it courteous that the teacher that is giving the recital introduce my student as a guest performer.

I have done this every year when I have a student from another studio play, be it violin, voice or piano.

I like seeing children get together and play music. My heart beams with delight.

Don't let any teacher stop anyone from playing music, no matter where.

On that note, Pianobuff: My teacher teaches violin and some piano. There was a guest performer last year, a young lady who played flute. She played with a beautiful tone, musically, and such wonderful articulation and phrasing that the first thought was, "If I ever take up the flute, whoever her teacher is, that's who I want to study with." Those are the kinds of things you don't just pick up on your own. The name of the teacher of a guest performer should be announced as a courtesy - but if it's an instrument not taught I think that convention would not be considered necessary (though nice to do), am I right?

I do think that enough people in a recital audience will have an ear that is discerning to some degree. You hear something that seems talent, and you hear something that seems taught. You also can see and hear a commonality between all students. Therefore if a student appears who has a distinctly different "something" (or lacks the common 'something') I think that those in the audience might feel that this person is not studying with the same teacher or in the least has another influence as well. This would be more likely in recitals than with a general audience, because the parents are involved in their children's practicing and so have developed an eye and ear for some details that the average audience member would lack.

There is a piano teacher (not mine) who has a tiny hand, and she teaches that the pinky must be raised when playing. I've never seen such a thing mentioned anywhere in the forums, by the way. It sticks up like a little flag. Every single student plays with this raised pinky, and their hands look like little sailboats floating along the keyboard with the mast sans sail bobbing along. It is very distinctive, and I think if any of her students played in another recital you would be able to tell by that little sailboat which the students of the other teacher would not have.

On a similar note, in the arts high school, each student has his own private teacher, but the teacher of each section (winds, voice, string) also has certain things that he/she stresses. When I attended a Kiwanis festival that featured local high schools, I did not always recognize the students and it seems the name of the school was not announced. But the minute the quartet or trio or whichever began to play you knew whether they came from this school because of certain technical details to their playing. That technical "marker" would also be there when they were at recitals of their private teachers. They bore the signs of the unique instruction of both the classroom teacher, and of the private teacher. It is the probably rare blend of students getting the advantage of a blend of two good teachers, each probably stressing different aspects of playing to create a happy better whole. I am sure that by the same token, a classroom scenario might tend to undermine rather than enhance. (Still another kettle of fish).

Most definately Keystring, having your students play at other teachers' recitals most often is advertisement for your studio.

I really do not think the hosting teaching needs to say who the teacher is, but should definately say he/she is a guest performer. Most people if they like what they hear will ask either the student or the hosting teacher, who they study with.

A lot of times I have know idea who the teacher is and I will refer the question to the parents and/or student.

Of course if a bassoonist shows up at our recitals, Pianobuff, nobody will think he is your student unless you teach more instruments than I know about.

+1

Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells.

Perfect. Whenever and wherever he chooses. We have done our jobs if they are enjoying what they are doing. Call it a success.

Well, I got one good thing out of this thread--- which I have to say, I read with amazement. That was the reference to the quotation by Plato:

"Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, a charm to sadness, gaiety and life to everything. It is the essence of order, and leads to all that is good, just, and beautiful, of which it is the invisible, but nevertheless, dazzling, passionate, and eternal form."

...if that's the one you mean, Betty. Some attribute it to The Republic, but I was not able to find it. Beautiful language in the edition I have, though.

Hope I don't get in big trouble with teachers over my upcoming piano party. People are likely to perform. I don't ask who their teachers are, it's not my business; I just want to see people with a common interest in music come together and have a good time.

I guess, having seen what everyone has to say, that I could understand the distress over the "poaching" of someone else's student in what amounts, partly, to an advertisement for the teacher sponsoring the recital. But it seems likely to me that it may be more innocent than that, more in the nature of thoughtlessness or simple ignorance. And I can understand adult students' not caring for the idea of being roped and branded as "Property of_______, Hands Off the Merchandise."

Even at the very worst, it is worth no more than a low-key chat with the student, or a pleasant e-mail to the teacher requesting the courtesy--- not worth pegging the blood-pressure gauge, or getting in another PW smackdown.

And, before I get back to Plato, if any of you would like to come to the party, August 22, in San Jose, drop me a PM. I'd be glad to see you.

I'd say contact the other teacher. Leave the student out of it. It sounds to me that this is a matter of inter-teacher rivalry and it's the business of the grownups to sort out their issues and leave the kids out of it, as in so many other similar situations.

There is some difference between people playing at a party and students playing at a recital.

When my students give a recital, it is a public performance of their work with me and it is different because they are all performing on the same program as students of my studio. It is, in some ways, an advertisement. I frequently have people attending my recitals whose children study with other teachers and, in many cases, they are attending because they've heard about me and what to see what my students produce in comparison to the students of their current teacher.

I see no problem with my students playing on the recital of another teacher or vice versa, but it should be duly noted in the program or announced. That's only fair. I cannot imagine that any of these students would be performing solos. That would be a little odd. But I can certainly see them playing duets or other kinds of ensembles with their friends.

I wouldn't dream of appearing to take credit for the work of someone else. I would expect the same ethical treatment by my colleagues. I don't own the students, but how they play is a direct reflection on me.

In case people haven't noticed, this is a Very Old Thread. I think everything that needed to be discussed was discussed, at length, well over a year ago, before Jazzed23 revived it.

+1 Our friend from Canada must have been exceptionally bored and wanted to stir the pot. Actually, the weather is so gorgeous right now, that I'd be hiking along the Fraser river or perhaps backpacking somewhere around Pendelton.

Whoops. O:-) I feel like a cat that walked headfirst into a plate glass window. Sorry.

No damage I hope

Dear Jazzed23,

I have been away from Piano World since last May 7th because of insulting remarks that came my way from several sources bleating their opinions at me. Today I'm back and I'm sorry I'm back. Someone had pm'ed and I logged into piano world only to see this topic come up again from last year. So, I was reading the new additions here. And, lo and behold, here's yours: I'm the one who is appalled here. I'm being resurected and being pointedly picked on by someone who simply has a different opinion that I do, but chooses to say some scathing things to me and to John. Should you think twice about your venom, let me tell you directly that you are out of order in disparaging John or myself, or anyone having a long and successful careen in music. Our opinions are just like your, opinions. But, I guarantee that John and I know how to teach far beyond your dim and limited view of what piano teaching is all about. You are misrepresenting me and every other piano teacher that is effective and efficient in their bringing piano students into musical independance. There are many teachers who will just take your money and let you call your own shots, but let me tell you that is not music education, it is making the monkey happy all the way to the bank.

Just by chance, I saw this post, and I can't say I'm glad I visited today. I'm appalled at you, for sure!

Jazz232 said: This thread sickens me!!! All you teachers who get offended that a student chooses to play at a recital other than your own, thinking that you "own" their playing and how they play is a reflection of your teaching abilities, get off your high horse and JUST LET THE KID PLAY MUSIC!!!

Especially those teachers with professional affiliations, you'd think this is like whites and blacks in the old days and you are forbidden to associate with other groups.

If I knew you had that possessive attitude, I'd quit right away. Music is for all, you as a teacher have no right to tell ANY STUDENT where they can or cannot play.

I would never tell my students they couldn't play at a recital or concert because I wasn't involved.

-Diane, come on, you play jazz. That is the freedom of music right there. Or did you not remember where jazz came from. You are insulting all the slaves who paid the price, and music was their only form of free expression.

-Betty and John, you old guys drop the attitude. All you are concerned with is your reputation and money, not how your students enjoy music. I am APPALLED...

To me or to the window? :-D

You sure? I thought the entire west coast was under a heat wave. It's hot and muggy down here.

You resurrected this thread after it was quiet for almost three months. Flames are more effective, even if never a good thing, when they are started in a timely fashion.

I'm with you, Gary. Though it's actually a year and three months since this thread was active. Doesn't time fly when you're having fun!

Nicely Put. I for one am glad to hear again from Betty. She was a valuable asset to these forums. I hope she comes back.