Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Teachers Forum Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?

Dear Teachers, I am confused on this issue. Please give me your educated thoughts. In the 1960's when I studied classical piano, both teachers had their Master's in Music Ed. IN REFERENCE TO ONLY CLASSICAL PIANO...they told me not to play as I felt but as they, the teacher, was teaching me. The reason they gave was because this is close to the intention of the classical composer... coming down through time traced back to the composer, from linage{ the student of the student of the student of Chopin himself concept}, the told me. I would so love your input as some younger classical piano players tell me they play the way they feel the classical piano composition. Thank you so much in advance. I am so confused about this. Sandy B... Member...

yes, it is really makes a difference when you play something as the composer intended. My teacher always asks me to do that, that it is always advisable to add in your own spark to the piece but always keep the composer in mind.

My take on this is that you should play the music the way you FEEL the music. If these teachers REALLY wanted to stay true to the composer's original intent, then NO composition by Bach, or any other Baroque composer, should ever be played on a modern piano, since the piano did not exist in its current state when these composer's were writing. Unless people are paying to hear you play the piece as written by the composer, then you have no obligation to anyone to do this. Even among the world's finest pianists you will hear tremendous differences in speed, interpretation and inflection in any given piece. Listen to the difference between the Rach 3 played by Kissin versus Abbey Simon.....how then, could there be a "right" or "wrong" interpretation of these pieces if there is such immense variation even among the world's finest?

The 'world's finest' are often too busy to look into any work in great depth unlike an amateur who could spend months or years on a work. I remember playing Rachmaninoff's recording of a grade 4 Grieg waltz to some pupils. As an interpretation it was appalling. He obviously had not looked at the sheet music for years. Totally unsubtle. But style and expression - pure Rachmaninoff. I know which I would choose.

Thank you so much for your input and I remember Horowitz in interwiew on TV once, he said, "I play what I feel." He added, "No one has corrected me yet." This really surprised me. Liberace your take on his clowning around with the classics? I loved him. Sandy B, Thank you again so much.

You play what you feel, but you still have to think about the composer and how that composer would have interpreted the piece. Even better get recordings of Chopin& Rachmaninoff etc playing so you get a clear view of the style.

You've got recordings of Chopin playing? That I'd like to hear.

Why does this only become an issue with classical composers? I have never once heard any of the Beatles complain that Joe Cocker had "butchered" "With a Little Help from my Friends". Quite the opposite, I think they are probably thrilled that other talented and creative people have used their foundational work to embellish and build on in order to lend their unique form of expression to it. For most deceased composers, you, or I, or your teachers, for that matter, have NO way of knowing what the composer REALLY intended. None of you have addressed my point about modern pianos and Baroque period music. Was Glenn Gould defiling Bach by playing his music on a modern Steinway? After all, we know for certain that Bach never intended for his music to be played on such an instrument, since it did not exist yet in his time!!!

Although majority of his was not for piano, I do believe Bach did live long enough to write some piano music. If you have the composer in mind, when thinking of beethoven then play it as written. Whenever someone came back from a concert in which his music was performed one of his first questions he asked was "how were the tempi?" According to account, although he used rubato a lot himself especially in his own works this was not something he gave to his students as freely. But to get to my opinion on the matter, I think that you should know how to play it exactly as the composer intended but you should perform it in any manner you want. The whole idea of 'you should know the rules before you break them'. James Booker performed wonderful chopin compositions with a latin rhythm and they were very well received. His black minute waltz in my opinion is just as good if not better than the original. If everyone played music as the composer intended then there would be even less variety as there is today. I respect the pianist who is able to improvise on various themes by beethoven and bach.

Very well put Beethoven Fan...............

I do not think that composers expected their music to sound all the same from whoever performed it. Chopin wanted others to play his msuci ebcuase he liked the way they played it better then he did. When a composer composes, he desont' think in terms of half note, quarter note, whole note, he thinks a somewhat long note, then a shorter one, then a really long one, and finds the equivalents in music notation. Quite often, the greatest composers were also great improvisers, and would improvise then write down what they played. One does not improvise thinking of note values, dynamics, or even pitches. They hear a sound and try to match it on the piano. Having said that, I think the it is a pianist's obligation to try and understand what the composer was getting at with the notes, rhythms, dynamics and articulations chosen. It is always important to know what was added by an editor and what the composer actualyl put in. But I do think that many of these things are there only to help clarify the composer's intention. But is a pianist only plays what's written, or worse, plays what someone else tells them to do, then they are no better than a midi file, frankly. I agree with what Beethoven Fan said. Music should come from your heart and feelings, not someone else's.

Sandra, I'm going to hazzard a guess that most classically trained piano teachers make a sincere effort to follow the score, and to teach their students to do so as well.

Analogies sometimes help, so let me use one (it's not perfect): in art classes (painting, drawing, etc.) a teacher may ask students to render a painting in the style of Renoir. If a student were to come up with a painting a la Picasso, he'd be criticized, not because it was bad, but it didn't meet the expectation of being in the style of Renoir. If I were to play Mozart in the style of Bartok, it would be an utter failure. Not that it would be uninteresting or "bad" in the sense of wrong notes, etc. But it wouldn't be Mozart's music any more.

In essence, when we are playing classical music, sometimes called art music, we are trying to reproduce the style and substance of what the composer wrote and intended. Of course, this is really illusive, being this distant in time from many of them.

All that said doesn't mean there isn't room for personalization of the piece you are playing. But classical musicians attempt to do so within boundaries.

Now, let's talk about improvisation . . . . .

Just a quick PS. If you read through Mozart's letters to his father, you'll come across many bitter complaints about how others were playing his music - mangling his music - incorrect tempos, phrasing, etc. My guess is that many composers had something definite in mind, and within the limits of our notation system (where's btb when we need him?) and oral/written traditions, we should at least know how each piece was intended to sound.

My teacher has recordings of Rachmaninoff playing Bach and Chopin. She has recordings of a few more but I have no idea who.

that's right music should come from the heart but you should still follow what is on the score, if not what's a score for.

and always listen to pieces that you play

Nobody plays the way the classical composers did any more. If someone played Grieg the way he did in his recordings, they would be laughed off the stage. Listening to the Rosenthal recordings of Chopin at Project Gutenberg will give you an idea of what Chopin probably sounded like, but people do not play that way now. Rachmaninov's recording of Chopin's Funeral March is the way Anton Rubinstein played it, not the way Chopin wrote it.

btw my teacher plays with the true art of the classical style, so do I and all her other students and my teacher's students are always among placed 1st and 2nd for competitions and do excellectly for practical exams. People may laugh but who cares, A person who laughs does not know how to appreciate the true classical art and it's sad that that's happening.
And you are implying that you would rather play music the new way? with so much virtuosity but no musicality, that's what music often is now

If someone played Grieg the way he did in his recordings, they would be laughed off the stage.

I haven't heard Grieg's recordings (didn't know he made shellacs) but supposing them to be like other early recordings, then the fault is not so much Grieg's as it was the early recording equipment, which was so primitive, that it demanded players distort their normal playing in order to get a passable recording.

I have news for you. Your teacher has no idea of the "true art of the classical style" and neither do the judges of those competitions. It died out years ago, and we can only barely get a glimpse of what it was.

There is nothing wrong with that. It is the style of our day. But it is not the style of the composers.

What people think is musical changes from time to time. There was a huge change that came about 100 years ago, when recordings came into being. If you listen to the very first recordings, like Nikisch's recording of Beethoven's 5th symphony, you hear a performance which is designed to hold your attention every moment of it, even if that means sacrificing some of the coherency of the piece as a whole. That might even mean rewriting some of the music. Today, everyone assumes that you have heard the music before, because most of the time, you have. If you have not, the performer undoubtedly has. You can read through the posts here and see how rare it is for someone to pick up a sheet of music and play it without ever having heard anyone else play it. That affects interpretation, and we cannot go back.