Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) End Stage Fright
End Stage Fright
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#934727 - 07/10/07 03:58 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
The initial half-bar is the beginning of 5 co-existent 1 note tunes. Some also combine to be 2 note themes. 3 note, 4 note and 5 note themes are also there. This is all in half a bar! And must be heard. Then add some affect.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
(ad) My Music Staff
Check out the new way to manage your music studio
#934728 - 07/10/07 04:01 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 10733
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
And how would you add affect exactly?
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11
__________________________________________________

Top
#934729 - 07/10/07 04:13 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
By studying the performance practice of the period and Bach's intentions. To do it and not compromise all these tunes is a tall order. Sorry my quick analysis is unintelligible.

I forgot to say thanks for putting your money where your mouth is. We need more of this.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


Top
#934730 - 07/10/07 04:28 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Morodiene:
Sorry for the double-post. But Chris H.: we do pause as we speak, but in appropriate places. We need to breathe, or allow a pause for better understanding. If someone spoke with no pauses, it would be harder to understand. Pauses are so important that we allow for them even in writing with commas and other punctuation. I dont mean to pick on you, but I don't think taking pauses is wrong, but it must be appropriately placed. So in a sense, I agree with what you said. [/b]
Don't worry about it. I couldn't agree more. I was just saying that I don't feel that those pauses were appropriately placed. This is just my opinion of course.

I know that the term 'rubato' means 'robbed' or to steal. However, it isn't just about pausing or slowing the tempo. I believe that good use of rubato should be balanced. A phrase may push on towards the climax and then hold back towards the end. The rhythm and pulse should always be clear though.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
#934731 - 07/10/07 04:38 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
Morodiene, what are your thoughts on the chromatic fantasy? I find the notation for this to be very limited. Different editions vary dramatically. Is it really possible to notate it exactly how it should be played? There is huge potential to deviate from the score.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
#934732 - 07/10/07 07:00 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 10733
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Chris:
I picked up a coupl eof versions of this piece, one edited by von Bulow, and another less "edited" version. The latter version may not be urtext (edited by Bischoff), but it is a lot less than what's in the Bulow one. One thing I noticed, for eaxmple, was that for the arpeggiated sections where Bach simply wrote the chords and left the arpeggiation up to the performer varied quite a bit between the versions, more rhythmic variations than notes. I prefer the Bischoff version in these sections because it arpeggiate the notes without really giving you rhythmic ideas. This I think provides enough information for me to decide where the rubato should be. The Bulow edition tries to notates the rhythm too precisely.

There are definitely decisions to be made, and I think by consulting with different performances and editions, you can decide for yourself what you like and what you don't like. Sometimes it's tough when you're given too much freedom. \:\)
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11
__________________________________________________

Top
#934733 - 07/12/07 11:22 AM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
193866 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 777
Loc: Manassas,Va
Sandy B here. This is so very fun and educational too. I so appreciate educators, academics etc, who will strive to preserve classical piano music. To me classical piano music is a treasure to hold closely to my heart. Thank you so much for each and every post.
_________________________
Sandra M. Boletchek 08/02/06

Top
#934734 - 07/17/07 04:22 AM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
 Quote:
Originally posted by keyboardklutz:
By studying the performance practice of the period and Bach's intentions. To do it and not compromise all these tunes is a tall order. Sorry my quick analysis is unintelligible.

I forgot to say thanks for putting your money where your mouth is. We need more of this. [/b]
How do you like this recording?

Back Prelude 1

Top
#934735 - 07/17/07 07:44 AM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Well played, and, I'm sure, much closer to the liking of the purists, but, to me, it exemplifies how this music can be technically correct, and still be lifeless and emotionless. The lack of variation in dynamics and timing makes me want to sit and just rock my head side to side like a metronome. Maybe that's what Bach wanted, but it isn't my cup of tea. Mind you, I am not criticizing your playing at all.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

Top
#934736 - 07/17/07 08:24 AM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
MA, I did not find anything lifeless and emotionless about your recording. In fact I found it delicate, intimate, personal and very beautiful. I heard your variation in dynamics and tempo; they were subtle just as they should be. This music is all about simplicity and I like the way you let it speak for itself.

I really don't like it when performers feel that they have to make dramatic gestures in order to appear expressive. Yes of course it is important to add a touch of your own personality to a performance, but this doesn't mean that you should take liberties by adding things which are not stylistically appropriate or musical. What MA's recording does is transfer this music to the piano, using its resources, in a way which is sympathetic to what the composer might have been trying to achieve. That is what it is all about.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
#934737 - 07/17/07 08:46 AM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 10733
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Just for the record, I do not make dramatic gesutres when I play. And there is evidence that Bach intended the playing to be more than just the notes on the page. Most people these days do not go far enough, and so Bach becomes simple-sounding, even though it is most complex.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11
__________________________________________________

Top
#934738 - 07/17/07 09:36 AM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Sorry I came in late ... but couldn’t resist picking up on a Chris H comment ... with which I heartily agree.

There is a right way to play the piano and interpret what the composer wrote ... going rubato balmy as free-thinking CC2 ... in his iconoclastic distortion of the Bach WTC Prelude 1 ... is obviously loopy with his hilarious subjective holding of certain notes ... but then perhaps there are some who like to meddle with one of the axial components ... perhaps CC2 would like to see a jazzed up version of the White House ... a circus mirror grotesque from the addled scrapbook of Xxx Xxxxx.

web page

Crazy like I mean Wow!!

Top
#934739 - 07/17/07 10:06 AM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
btb,
Your ignorance is exceeded only by your highly offensive and insulting comments. Comparing me to Xxx Xxxxx, in ANY way, shape or form, is crossing the line. You have NO idea who I am and what I am about, and to personalize this discussion in such an inappropriate way is the mark of a real coward. It is easy to hide behind an anonymous tagline on a website and cast disparaging remarks at someone's integrity. If I had you here in front of me I could guarantee you would not have the courage to say that to my face.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

Top
#934740 - 07/17/07 10:24 AM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Get real CC2 ... sorry to have unintentionally pressed a button ... but if you muck around with
the music of JS Bach ... perhaps the most respected of all musical composers ... you must
expect flak ... anytime you want to step outside ... be my guest ... I stand 6'2" and weigh
200 lbs and was an international sportsman and played to a 6 golf handicap ... lighten up old chap ... you lit the fuse.

Top
#934741 - 07/17/07 10:30 AM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
There's flak and then there's flak "old chap"....and you crossed a line. As far as your attempt at intimidation with your pathetic description of yourself as a big golfer, you would go down so hard and fast, you would hardly have time to know what hit you.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

Top
#934742 - 07/17/07 01:35 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1492
It should be played in a way that expresses something. It should capture the imagination and sound fresh. Dynamics and tempos are negotiable. Nobody is calling for changing the actual notes.
_________________________
1966 Mason & Hamlin piano.

Top
#934743 - 07/17/07 02:19 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Thank you for that voice of reason. You may not like my version, but at least you are open to adding some variation. These folks that are so riled up at the fact that I have violated Bach's intent for his music can't seem to reconcile the fact that they violate his intent every time they play his music on a modern piano. Having had no availability of a truly comparable instrument in his day, he could not have intended his music for one. So, technically speaking, they are all just as guilty as I am. The big difference is, I am fully aware that this is not the way Bach intended the piece to be played, AND, I am fully capable of playing it conventionally. I just don't think that it was such a big deal to post the recording that I did. Never, in my wildest dreams, did I think I'd be compared to Bin Laden for doing so. People on this site can be REALLY whacky sometimes.
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

Top
#934744 - 07/17/07 04:25 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
 Quote:
Originally posted by CC2 and Chopin lover:
These folks that are so riled up at the fact that I have violated Bach's intent for his music can't seem to reconcile the fact that they violate his intent every time they play his music on a modern piano.
[/b]
CC2, I sincerely hope that you do not feel that I think anything of the kind. You are free to do whatever you like with Bach's music. I never said that you have violated his intent. If you re-read my posts on this thread you will see that it was only the use of dramatic pauses in your recordings that I did not agree with. The reasons I gave for this were nothing to do with what the composer intended. I have no problem whatsoever with anyone adding variation in dynamics, tempo, articulation, ornamentation, pedal etc. In fact, if you are to play this music on the piano (which I prefer) then there is no reason why you shouldn't make full use of its expressive capibilities. Listen again to the recording posted by MA. All of these pianistic qualities are present, they are just a little more subtle. If I prefer this style of playing it doesn't make me a bad person and it certainly does not make me 'whacky'. There was no need for btb to insult you in the way that he did. Everybody is entitled to their own opinions, that's what makes these forums so great.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
#934745 - 07/17/07 05:30 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 10733
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
Honestly, I didn't hear any expressive qualities in MA's recording, unless your definition of expression are dynamics and voicing. Those things are good and necessary skills, but there's so much more to expression than just those two. Why would anyone think Bach played only what he wrote on the page, and nothing more? Wouldn't he have interpreted his own music, and expected that of other performers of his music?
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11
__________________________________________________

Top
#934746 - 07/17/07 05:43 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
There is also so much more to expression than simply playing out of time.

Nobody said anything about playing only what is on the page. This is a starting point. It is the job of the performer to give a musical and stylistically appropriate interpretation. I am afraid that there are limits and boundaries to this. If you start changing this that and the other then will you not reach the point where you are no longer playing the same composition?
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
#934747 - 07/17/07 06:02 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 10733
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
No one suggested that chaos is the ultimate goal. Everything must be done in taste. If it helps clarify the context of the music, then it is beneficial. If it confuses the context, then it is too far. My point is that many do not go far enough, and the result is making Bach sound simple, and he is anything but. As a result, much of the detail and context is lost.
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11
__________________________________________________

Top
#934748 - 07/17/07 06:08 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Morodiene:
Everything must be done in taste. If it helps clarify the context of the music, then it is beneficial. If it confuses the context, then it is too far. [/b]
Are we not saying the same thing here?
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
#934749 - 07/17/07 06:17 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 10733
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Chris H.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Morodiene:
Everything must be done in taste. If it helps clarify the context of the music, then it is beneficial. If it confuses the context, then it is too far. [/b]
Are we not saying the same thing here? [/b]
I don't think so, simply because my manifestation of what I call expressive is very different from yours, if you think that MA's recording was "enough."
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11
__________________________________________________

Top
#934750 - 07/17/07 06:31 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
CC2 and Chopin lover Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 1981
Chris,
I don't count you as one of those who are totally inflexible regarding this subject, but I do happen to agree with Morodiene's perspective on it. I guess that's evident by the way that I played it. I readily admit that my recording pushed the boundaries way past the point that it could still be called "Baroque", or anything else, for that matter. But, sometimes, it's just enjoyable to stir the pot and see what comes out. The way I figure, as long as no one was paying to hear it played the "right" way, I wasn't doing anything that warranted the response it elicited from some people. I completely understand that it was not your cup of tea. Vive la difference!
_________________________
Piano Technician/Tuner

Top
#934751 - 07/17/07 06:42 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Morodiene:
My point is that many do not go far enough, and the result is making Bach sound simple, and he is anything but. As a result, much of the detail and context is lost. [/b]
In the case of the C Major prelude I think 'simple' is exactly what Bach was after. Of course he was able to produce the most complex and intricate music but this is not it. It is a simple but beatiful harmonic progression. It doesn't need to be pulled about to make it work. Now, I know that doesn't mean you should play as if the metronome was ticking away. There is room for a little push when the harmonic tension builds, or a slight delay at the start of a new phrase, or a tasteful dwelling on a cadence etc. I think MA did this. For me, it was enough. For some it may not be enough. No interpretation can please everyone.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
#934752 - 07/17/07 06:45 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
CC2, I am glad you did post your recording.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
#934753 - 07/18/07 11:45 AM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
What is your opinion on this recording? ;\)

http://www.box.net/shared/75kp2s6p8l
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
#934754 - 07/18/07 11:50 AM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
MA Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/27/06
Posts: 302
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
It sounds weird to me.

Top
#934755 - 07/18/07 12:33 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Morodiene Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 10733
Loc: Boynton Beach, FL
It starts out with a playful affect, but then due to the repetition of the slur & staccato motif, it loses its effectiveness (or should I say Affectiveness? \:D ). An interesting interpretation, but similar to a child who says something funny and repeats it over and over again in hopes of getting the same response from the adults, only to find it is an exercise in diminishing returns. Towards the end you vary from this motif, which then brings interest back, and then return to the staccato right before the final cadenza. I would recommend more variations, but not too many as to be chaotic, but perhaps 3 or 4 more so it doesn't become pedestrian.

Of course, articulations are only one means by which someone can vary an otherwise repetitive pattern. You also worked with dynamics (a necessity), but also the timing of the 16th notes was quite predictable even after the first 2 measures. By varying that one can emphasize important scale degrees and harmonies better, create tension and release, etc.

What do *you* think about it, Chris H.?
_________________________
private piano/voice teacher - full time
MTNA member
www.valeoconservatory.com
Petrof 9'2 Concert, Yamaha G3, Roland FP-7, Yamaha MOX6, Kawai MP11
__________________________________________________

Top
#934756 - 07/18/07 12:51 PM Re: Do we always have to play classical piano as the composer intended ...through linage?
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
OK, I have to come clean...........it's not my recording! I wonder if anybody can tell who the mystery performer is?????????

Personally, I am not keen on this interpretation for exactly the reasons you pointed out morodiene. Although I do think that this pianist is amazing in many respects. It does just go to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

Top
Page 3 of 4 < 1 2 3 4 >

Moderator:  Ken Knapp 
What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
Download & Print Sheet Music Instantly
sheet music search
sheet music search

sheet music search
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
100 registered (adanepst, antony, Atrys, ADWyatt, 27 invisible), 1262 Guests and 39 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
74198 Members
42 Forums
153491 Topics
2249187 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Bechstein 7
by PhilipInChina
04/16/14 01:07 AM
Premier Piano of New York
by FenderJazzMan
04/15/14 11:58 PM
Top selling self-taught pianists?
by Sand Tiger
04/15/14 11:06 PM
Just got my MP11!
by Dan Clark
04/15/14 10:18 PM
Cracks in my soundboard??
by Markarian
04/15/14 09:35 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission