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Hi there, PianoPlayerMan1994, [QUOTE]What kind of a human being what possibly try and teach students endevouring to learn the art of playing piano on a fake piano?!?!
A normal person with a normal life, who has humble means but a deep passion to teach. She still creates excitement and passion in her students, and they learn music as well as about themselves.
First of all, not sure what level or what country you teach in, but here, people who start learning music as children don't want to learn the "art" of playing piano. They rather long to be able to play, and play well the music they are learning about.
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This is like a driving instructer who teaches his students how to drive using his child's powerwheels(a tiny motorized children's car).
Hmmm... nope. It's like a driving instructor who uses a used car that's in good shape because she can't afford more expensive cars. Her teaching makes all the difference in the world, not the car. The student doesn't need to brag about the car he or she learns on. But has to pay attention to the lesson and not be distracted by exercises in futility.
Kaye/Kaye's husband, PPM1994 has no right to be rude. He has been told this repeatedly ever since he joined this forum.
You will find that almost every classically-trained pianist, on this forum or not, will agree that it is unacceptable to teach piano on a digital piano no matter the level of the students.
Despite my sympathy towards your financial situation, the fact is that the difference in price between a good digital piano and a decent used acoustic upright is slim.
It is wonderful that you have a passion to teach. You AND your students deserve a piano. If you want to teach, you must save up until you can afford an acoustic.
When teaching children, it is of the utmost importance that they are taught early on how to create a beautiful tone. This cannot be done on a digital: the sounds that the digital can produce have already been created.
PPM1994's analogy was rude and uncalled for. However, it is in fact closer to the truth than your own. A driving instructor with a used car is a piano teacher with a used piano, NOT a piano teacher with a digital.
Please do not take offense to my post and remember that the price gap between a digital ($400-2000?) and a decent used upright ($500-5000?)is small enough that ANYONE wanting to teach piano should be able to afford the latter.
Originally posted by keyboardklutz: [b] A DP is a digital (not even analogue!) recording of a piano.
That's all I've ever heard Horowitz play. Same for Glenn Gould.
Never met either in person. But I own their CDs, digital recordings.
Very few of us ever have or ever will hear the masters of the piano in person, live on an acoustic. 99.99% of the piano music we hear every day is in the form of a digital recording. Just like a DP. [/b]
An interesting point, however this is where they differ: Let's say on that Glenn Gould recording he plays C4 (middle C) 100 times (any note really, doesn't matter). Each time he plays it, it will sound different. On a digital, you can play that C 100 times and it will have 3 different sounds (not 100). There is a difference. I suppose if you get Ivory or something along those lines you're getting more samples, but other than that that's what's going on.
[/b]
I don't disagree, although I would say as technology improves the difference continues to shrink.
My point was only that to assert the mere fact of being digital and recorded as obviously bad, no need for further argument, is wrong because most of the piano music we listen to IS recreated by digital recordings. And it's as good as the speakers we can afford.
Originally posted by TimR: My point was only that to assert the mere fact of being digital and recorded as obviously bad, no need for further argument, is wrong because most of the piano music we listen to IS recreated by digital recordings. And it's as good as the speakers we can afford.
TimR, The difference between listening to a performance coming from a digital and the sound coming from a recording of an acoustic is vast.
There is no subtlety available in a digital when compared to a grand. The subtleties present in a great performance on a grand piano can be captured fairly well in a recording, especially if high-end equipment is used.
A pianist playing on a digital simply cannot do the things he or she would be capable of doing on a grand.
Pardon me for interrupting again but there are several points of misunderstanding that I must clear up. Mr. Tim said that most piano music is recorder on digital pianos, the is abesolutely not true- a digital piano is no the same thing as a disc klavier(at least that's what yamaha's version is called). A disk-clavier(or whatever the propper term is) is a real piano integreated with digital funcationality- and when I say aa real piano i mean it has string, wooden hammers, etc...
As to the car analogy- you could not possibly argue that a digitial piano is akin to a used car for one reason, as digital piano is by no stretch of the definition a piano in an way. If anything one could make a better argument for powerwheels being more closely related to a car than a digital paino to an acoustic.
A true digital piano is something else entriely- and is in no way comparable to the disk-claviers used for many recording( essentially digital player pianos).
The price issue has already been corrected, but I will just mention is again. A little console/spinet in the 600-2000 dollar range is nearly always preferable to a "digital" cmoparable in price(yes of course exceptions exist.
The point of introducing a new student to the touch of a piano has also been mentioned but I will just elaborate a bit on it anyway. One cannot underestimate the importance of the development of beginner's touch on a real piano. This begginer's aquaired "touch" is the soil from which all of his advancement in the art of piano will flourish, and for this reason it is abesolutely crucial that touch be cultivated on a real piano.
Also, as to the cries of victimization, I would only say that my words were never intended to insult or belittle- I was merely trying to communicate, in a concise manner, the dangers of teaching students(especially early students) on a fake piano.
Originally posted by PianoPlayerMan1994: Pardon me for interrupting again but there are several points of misunderstanding that I must clear up. Mr. Tim said that most piano music is recorder on digital pianos ....
He didn't say that, so I think the misunderstanding was yours.
Originally posted by PianoPlayerMan1994: [b] Pardon me for interrupting again but there are several points of misunderstanding that I must clear up. Mr. Tim said that most piano music is recorder on digital pianos ....
He didn't say that, so I think the misunderstanding was yours.
Steven [/b]
Well then, I will try and be a bit more precise so that forum trolls such as sotto don't come along and parse the language of every post down to the finest hair with the sole intention of antagonizing.
The poster whom tim quoted and seemed to basically agree with.
Originally posted by PianoPlayerMan1994: Pardon me for interrupting again but there are several points of misunderstanding that I must clear up. Mr. Tim said that most piano music is recorder on digital pianos, the is abesolutely not true- a digital piano is no the same thing as a disc klavier(at least that's what yamaha's version is called). A disk-clavier(or whatever the propper term is) is a real piano integreated with digital funcationality- and when I say aa real piano i mean it has string, wooden hammers, etc...
As to the car analogy- you could not possibly argue that a digitial piano is akin to a used car for one reason, as digital piano is by no stretch of the definition a piano in an way. If anything one could make a better argument for powerwheels being more closely related to a car than a digital paino to an acoustic.
A true digital piano is something else entriely- and is in no way comparable to the disk-claviers used for many recording( essentially digital player pianos).
The price issue has already been corrected, but I will just mention is again. A little console/spinet in the 600-2000 dollar range is nearly always preferable to a "digital" cmoparable in price(yes of course exceptions exist.
The point of introducing a new student to the touch of a piano has also been mentioned but I will just elaborate a bit on it anyway. One cannot underestimate the importance of the development of beginner's touch on a real piano. This begginer's aquaired "touch" is the soil from which all of his advancement in the art of piano will flourish, and for this reason it is abesolutely crucial that touch be cultivated on a real piano.
Also, as to the cries of victimization, I would only say that my words were never intended to insult or belittle- I was merely trying to communicate, in a concise manner, the dangers of teaching students(especially early students) on a fake piano.
I hope this fallacy is now cleared up.
So, based on your theory, an electric guitar is not really a guitar, because it isn't acoustic, and an electronic organ is not really an organ, because it doesn't have pipes?
I agree that there are digital keyboards that play like an organ, and therefore have no "touch" or action.
However, digital pianos with weighted actions, wooden keys, and velocity sensitive response actually do approximate some of the characteristics of touch in a "real" piano.
As to who is being divisive and who isn't, I'd be careful if I were you PPM1994, you've already racked up a number of complaints from forums members.
My Keyboards: Estonia L-190, Roland RD88, Yamaha P-80, Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880, Antique Pump Organ, 1850 concertina, 3 other digital pianos ------------------------- My original piece on BandCamp: https://frankbaxtermrpianoworld.bandcamp.com/releases
Me banging out some tunes in the Estonia piano booth at the NAMM show...
Originally posted by Piano World: So, based on your theory, an electric guitar is not really a guitar, because it isn't acoustic, and an electronic organ is not really an organ, because it doesn't have pipes?
I agree that there are digital keyboards that play like an organ, and therefore have no "touch" or action.
However, digital pianos with weighted actions, wooden keys, and velocity sensitive response actually do approximate some of the characteristics of touch in a "real" piano.
As to who is being divisive and who isn't, I'd be careful if I were you PPM1994, you've already racked up a number of complaints from forums members.
Let me just preface my response by saying that I've actually owned and played exclusively on a yamaha clavinova(one of the upper level ones though i forget the model) for a period of 6 months during my past before I became serious about playing the piano. I've played on many many digitals, mine had the weiughted velocity sensative, etc.. keys.
I would totally agree with the idea that good digitals are marvelous little devices that mimic a real piano far better than most people would expect.
As to your point about an acoustic guitar versus and electric guitar, I would just say that this seems to me mostly a semantic issue and is not really worth addressing. I think though that just about everyone on this forum would agree that there are certain fundamental differences between a digital piano and an acoustic piano.
And as to being devicive, you seem to have attached to this word a negative connotation- because the word itself has no such connotation. Let us not forget, Martin Luther King, Jesus, Ghnadi, Richard Nixon, Bethoven, Aristotle, all of these people were considered devisive figures during their time- they all disrupted the respective status quos of the societies in which they lived. So, if I too have upset the status quo on these message boards- and you seek to make an example out of my by issuing a ban on my account, by all means do so.
The status quo on these boards was civility. Your own posts have been singularly incendiary, condescending, obnoxious and arrogant with a preponderance of words like "ignorant" and "foolish" cast toward others without any provocation. I don't think any of the historical figures you cite besides Richard Nixon (who is quite out of place on that list anyway) behaved that way, and the comparison is baseless.
And I can't believe how your writing skills (if not the spelling) have improved since your debut here seven months ago when you said you favorite songs were Rachmaninf's 3rd and List's La Campenalla and that you had learned a Handel sonitina. I thought you were far younger than 14 even, and here you are now writing like a grown-up!
And I can't believe how your writing skills (if not the spelling) have improved since your debut here seven months ago when you said you favorite songs were Rachmaninf's 3rd and List's La Campenalla and that you had learned a Handel sonitina. I thought you were far younger than 14 even, and here you are now writing like a grown-up!
Steven
You hit the nail on the head here. The first thing I thought when I read his post was "...his style's starting to break..."
I guess he can't argue his points with such a limited vocabulary after all.
Practice makes permanent - Perfect practice makes perfect.
[QUOTE]What kind of a human being what possibly try and teach students endevouring to learn the art of playing piano on a fake piano?!?!
This is like a driving instructer who teaches his students how to drive using his child's powerwheels(a tiny motorized children's car).
To initiate a young student into the art of piano using a digital piano is truly a crime against that student, one of enourmous proportions.
[END QUOTE]
To return to comparing the digital to the acoustic instrument, I am more inclined to think of the difference as between a simulator and the real thing. I note that commercial pilots learn first on simulators, and they go back to simulators when they need practice without the expense of a real aircraft. Similarly, subway train drivers learn first on simulators. And both of these operators of large public transit conveyances, who first learned on simulators, end up with peoples' lives in their hands. I'm glad they have been well trained, even if they started on simulators!!!
To return to comparing the digital to the acoustic instrument, I am more inclined to think of the difference as between a simulator and the real thing. I note that commercial pilots learn first on simulators, and they go back to simulators when they need practice without the expense of a real aircraft. Similarly, subway train drivers learn first on simulators. And both of these operators of large public transit conveyances, who first learned on simulators, end up with peoples' lives in their hands. I'm glad they have been well trained, even if they started on simulators!!!
Ahhh... maybe you actually do have a point here. Since we are training tomorrows young transit system artists using transit simulations, why not do the same thing with endevouring young musicians using fake pianos. We beter not let the young ones loose on a real piano until they have become well-aquanted with the fake one first. Actually, on second thought, that's an utterly foolish idea- why would one do such a thing unless they were trying intentionally to prevent the young musician from growing musically? Also I can't help but to notice the parallel(as I'm sure others will) between the kind if thing your suggesting and what the Nazi's did with the Nazi youth movement in the '30s and '40s- the victims in such a circumstance are not the young, but rather art itself.
To return to comparing the digital to the acoustic instrument, I am more inclined to think of the difference as between a simulator and the real thing. I note that commercial pilots learn first on simulators, and they go back to simulators when they need practice without the expense of a real aircraft. Similarly, subway train drivers learn first on simulators. And both of these operators of large public transit conveyances, who first learned on simulators, end up with peoples' lives in their hands. I'm glad they have been well trained, even if they started on simulators!!!
Ahhh... maybe you actually do have a point here. Since we are training tomorrows young transit system artists using transit simulations, why not do the same thing with endevouring young musicians using fake pianos. We beter not let the young ones loose on a real piano until they have become well-aquanted with the fake one first. Actually, on second thought, that's an utterly foolish idea- why would one do such a thing unless they were trying intentionally to prevent the young musician from growing musically? Also I can't help but to notice the parallel(as I'm sure others will) between the kind if thing your suggesting and what the Nazi's did with the Nazi youth movement in the '30s and '40s- the victims in such a circumstance are not the young, but rather art itself. [/b]
My Keyboards: Estonia L-190, Roland RD88, Yamaha P-80, Bilhorn Telescope Organ c 1880, Antique Pump Organ, 1850 concertina, 3 other digital pianos ------------------------- My original piece on BandCamp: https://frankbaxtermrpianoworld.bandcamp.com/releases
Me banging out some tunes in the Estonia piano booth at the NAMM show...
Originally posted by PianoPlayerMan1994: Let us not forget, Martin Luther King, Jesus, Ghnadi, Richard Nixon, Bethoven, Aristotle, all of these people were considered devisive figures during their time- they all disrupted the respective status quos of the societies in which they lived.
Richard Nixon?
And to think people don't take you seriously…
There is a world of difference between electric and digital. I used to practice on a Rhodes. There, real hammers hit real bars i.e. you create the sound. Same with an electric guitar.
You need to see what's happening to the world. We've gone from live to vinyl to tape to CD each a poorer format than the other and now the poorest - mp3. TV and film is now digital and eventually won't need actors. Education is increasingly using computers. Do you see it? Young people today rarely encounter the real thing instead they are fobbed of with a simulation. Why? It's cheaper.
Originally posted by keyboardklutz: Why? It's cheaper.
... and more convenient. And less of a bother to housemates and the neighbors, and more entertaining with all those cool sounds and drum sets and backbone styles and you can practice at 2am if you want. And easier to play and get earlier results with less work. And ability to record your left hand while working on your right hand and vice versa or just to hear how you really sound to others. And lower cost to maintain without needing tuning. And easy to take on holiday or move to another room. And ability to split the keyboard for teaching or to play as if your own jazz trio. And able to connect to Sibelius for composing or doing music theory homework. Or ability to connect to Ivory, PianoTeq, Garritan etc. to play with samples/models of other great instruments.
Gee, why on earth would someone choose digital over the "real" thing???
