Hi everyone,

I'm getting back to teaching after a coupel years off and teaching mostly from music schools the past decade. So, I need some help getting started. Here's my question:

I want to purchase a good digital piano to teach on as my home is not big enough to accomodate an upright. Do you guys have any recommendations - what models by which companies? I would want to spend max. $2000, though all suggestions are welcome as perhaps I could get a more expensive version used.

I teach Royal conservatory and want to get something that will allow me to teach up to at least grade six well enough. And maybe in time I can find a way to get an upright.

Any ideas? Does anyone here teach on a digital/electric piano?

At what grade level do you think it's absolutely necessary to get an upright to maximize learning?

Thanks!

Hi kaye

I'm not a teacher but I can't help but wonder how, if your home is not 'big enough' for an upright, you are going to accomodate an 88 key digital piano? Unless, of course, your ceilings are extremely low!

Again as a non-teacher, I think it's imperative that the teacher, at least, has an acoustic piano at their disposal.

...just mho

Hi Cruiser,

I'm not sure I understand your question. A digital piano is just long and not bulky, whereas an upright has a full back and takes up far more room. As well, to have an upright, you need a place that is sound proof enough not to bother neighbors, whereas digitals can be played with head phones etc.

Of course an upright is preferable, and I respect your opinion and it is also mine. However, with beginner level students, many start out practicing with a digital/electric piano at home for the first couple years and so to teach them on the same is fine for the first little while IMO. It's really when students begin to get higher up that they need to get an upright. I'm just wanting opinions on when the cut off point would be re. needing to transition to an upright, and not whether or not I should or shouldn't teach on a digital, because again, that is my only option right now. But thanks for sharing your opinion. I understand an upright is ideal.

In the long run, I am making my way toward an upright I hope, but for now, trying to find the very best alternative I can. Sooo...

Anyone else? I'm not looking for opinions on whether or not I should teach on a digital/electric, but rather for those who have done this or if you had to do this, what would you recommend?

Thanks, Kaye

The Montreal conservatory only favors the Roland HP-207 as the closest thing to a real piano there is... if that helps.

Many thanks Strat! That helps. I have been leaning heavily toward getting a Roland in fact, so this is good info. Thank-you.

Kaye

I don't have a brilliant upright - It's...okay.
I prefer to play my Yamaha P-140, but I always choose to teach on the the upright over it.
I think my yammy sounds good and feels pretty good too. My only concern would be that my pupils wouldn't develop the strength they needed to play a real piano if they had to.
But I know you're not looking for a should I/should I not opinion.
So my only advice is to look at the yamaha. No matter what anyone tells you about the P120 being very similar, they're not being truthful. The P-140 feels farrrrrrr more like a piano.
I think it'd work out about $1000 or something like that. Maybe a bit more. Though your budget stretches a lot further than that, so maybe you'd be looking for something better.

http://www.soundslive.co.uk/product.asp?name=Yamaha---P140S&ID=4406

kaye, it's also the piano I'm heavily leaning on getting for myself, too. But being able to compare both the HP-207 next to a grand and feeling a "close enough" action between the 2 was a real eye-opener.

I would look into the Roland FP-7. I played it and liked the action on this much better than the action on the Hp-207 or HP-204. Roland tries to mimic the piano action, but IMO it ends up being a bit weird. The FP-7 doesn't have this escapement "feature" which actually is a good thing. It doesn't come with a cabinet or stand, but its a nice instrument and slightly less expensive than the HP line. I would go to a dealer and play both of them side by side if possible, and decide for yourself what feels the best.

edited to add: I just thought about your limits in space, and the FP-7 on a good stand would take up less space than the HP, but probably not enough to worry about. When I started teaching I also worked on a digital, and had no problems with that. Kids enjoy playing on both as long as they work well.

Hi again, Kaye

It's simply not true that an upright takes up "far more room" than a digital piano (I'm not talking about toys here). Take a tape measure and find out for youself.

The point I was trying to make is that there is very little difference in the floor area taken by an 88 key digital (like my Kawai CA 91) and the floor area taken by most uprights. Indeed quite often a dp can be larger in this respect. The main difference - and not in all cases - is the vertical dimension and hence my flippant remark (with a winking smiley) about the height of your ceilings.

The sound (noise) question is altogether a different matter and this is where I agree that a digital comes into its own. But, you did not mention this in your original post.

As a 'serious' student of the piano I would not take lessons from a teacher who did not have an acoustic piano at their disposal but I take your point about teaching children who only have a dp at home.

Hi guys,

Thanks for your input.

I actually tried the Roland FP 7 and really liked it. I actually almost bought this earlier in the year. I agree, it is a great option.

I believe I tried the Yamaha P-140 as well. It's nice to know what I felt were good picks wasn't just my opinion, but others here also liked them.

I have a casio px 120 which would be fine to teach beginners on, but I have wanted to be able to teach the more intermediate levels also.

I went to town yesterday evening and tried the ROland HP - 207. I found the touch very similar to an acoustic - but more like an older acoustic piano, than a contemporary Kawai or Yamaha acoustic feels. I could see how you find it a bit 'wierd.' I sort of felt like when I played the keys didn't 'give' enough back on the action, but you sort of hit the ground with a plop when you press (though not enough to totally make me discount it as it does perform well overall). Sot I decided to go over our budget and get it because it will do what i need it to do, even if not quite perfect, it's close.
And the store owner worked out a great price and payment plan for us, so it seemed like a good investment as well.

Cruiser, thanks for sharing your perspective. It sounds like you are a really dedicated student and it's great you have an upright on hand. I wish you all the very best in your studies.

Oh, I almost missed your reply Strat. Yeah - the 207, I hear ya, because for me it was the 'close enough' feeling that led to me decide to go for it. There was a real acoustic there for the same price and I did sigh a bit as I look forward in hope to having an acoustic again. But you know, I really wasn't disappointed with the HP - 207. The keys are wood or like wood, so my fingers won't be slipping off the plastic anymore when I do my G flat major arpeggios! And the touch is close enough that I can get back to learning more advanced pieces again, working on the nuances etc. ANd it just looks really pretty too! lol!

The store also threw in gently used headphones and almost new padded pench, so I'm very happy. :0)

Thanks again for the helpful replies,

Kaye

Thank you Kaye. I in return wish you every success in your teaching activities, whether it be by means of a digital or an acoustic instrument. I've no doubt that your skill and dedication will more than compensate for any perceived disadvantages in not having a 'real' piano to teach with.

edit: congratulations on choosing your new Roland HP 207!

Mike

What kind of a human being what possibly try and teach students endevouring to learn the art of playing piano on a fake piano?!?!

This is like a driving instructer who teaches his students how to drive using his child's powerwheels(a tiny motorized children's car).

To initiate a young student into the art of piano using a digital piano is truly a crime against that student, one of enourmous proportions.

This is by far the most disturbing post I have yet encountered.

Your middle name wouldn't happen to be Gyro would it? Unhappily, I find myself agreeing with PPM1994. How much lower can our art get? Will I have to go to the cornfield?

Thanks for the kind words of encouragment Mike. That was so nice to read and I value that. In fact, I believe that your heart of encouragment as well as your keen insight and attention to detail that's come through on this thread are gifts that will be wonderful assets when/if you start teaching!

Thanks again for taking time to share your thoughts on things.

Kaye

Nice one!

Seriously, though, I've seen several "music schools" in my area that have nothing but electric keyboards in their studios--Gyro will be delighted to know. And those schools have students lining out the door. Have you ever witnessed a group lesson in the keyboard lab? It's quite a sight. A bit scary, if you ask me.

I know of two colleagues (private teachers) who teach on keyboards. They also have a grand in the studio, but that's for the teacher to demonstrate. They both have more students than I do, but we end up teaching about the same number of hours per week.

In my experience, students who practice on keyboards at home tend to be learning piano "just for fun." They (and their parents) are not serious at all about piano. Fortunately, as of last month, all of my private students have at least an upright piano at home And the last person who switched to an upright has already shown tremendous improvement. Maybe it's one of those "Gee! My mom actually got me a real piano! I guess I better start practicing!" situations.

Basically it's a cheap alternative. I can't think of one student at my school who has a piano - I even have a small group with nothing at home! Real music i.e. live concerts, individual lessons, quality instruments, is still only for the well heeled.

Or families who have the foresight and judgment to make the right choices in life. Nine times out of ten, show me a family who can't afford a piano and I will show you a family who has chosen not to be able to afford a piano.

That was mine!

Hi there, PianoPlayerMan1994,

This is Kaye's husband.

I think you need to be "tuned." I will oblige by by a reply to your extreme and insulting comments.

A normal person with a normal life, who has humble means but a deep passion to teach. She still creates excitement and passion in her students, and they learn music as well as about themselves.

First of all, not sure what level or what country you teach in, but here, people who start learning music as children don't want to learn the "art" of playing piano. They rather long to be able to play, and play well the music they are learning about.

Hmmm... nope. It's like a driving instructor who uses a used car that's in good shape because she can't afford more expensive cars. Her teaching makes all the difference in the world, not the car. The student doesn't need to brag about the car he or she learns on. But has to pay attention to the lesson and not be distracted by exercises in futility.

What an uncalled for insulting remark coming from someone who evidently lives in an ivory tower. Mind your manners, sir.

An acoustic piano is essential at a certain level, not essential for beginners, but if the parents can afford it, and if the piano is gong to be treated well, in a room that's well tempered, and tuned regularly, then why not. But if the parents can't afford it, it is no reason to shut the door to piano lessons to that child.

I'd say you need to get out more often and hang out with real people.

Millions of people around the world are learning music on plastic electronic toys/keyboards, and many have digital pianos because of how practical that is for low income families living in apartments of townhouses.

Learning piano on an acoustic piano is not for everyone: price, and environment count. However, I deeply disagree that the piano makes the student, just as saying that the piano makes the teacher. I know piano teachers who can't tell when their piano is out of tune until it's way out of tune. It's all relative.

Not all children have the ability or passion to become concert pianists. A good teacher will discern that and not abuse the student with extreme demands on him/her or his/her parents.

Painting my wife as a criminal and talking to her as if she's an idiot, betrays a disturbed view of the world and a disproportionate view of yourself, in my opinion, and I wonder how you can't see that you lost something along the way: humanity, decency and a sense of measure.

I wildly hope you realize by now that this conversation has little to do with digital vs acoustic pianos, but has a lot to do with personal opinions, experiences, and maybe even about the art of being a teacher.

So, no need to be rude.

This being said, no one would dispute that having an acoustic piano is best for students of a certain level and caliber. It becomes more than just about notes and sound. For these, the decision rests with their parents.

Obviously, some people do not think that misery or poverty exists, and that many families make huge sacrifices just to buy a digital piano between $1000 and $2000. To put an added burden on them out of snobism would be heartless.

Finally, my wife didn't say she believes a digital piano was better than an acoustic, just that it's what we can afford right now for various reasons alluded to above. So breathe deep before you trigger rude comments next time.

Thanks to all the others who have been civil. It's enriching to be able to have adult conversations with our peers.

My .02

Regards,

Andre Lefebvre

Well said, Andre. Just be aware that there are several other members here who share ppm1994's obnoxious approach to other human beings. But that's the price we pay for freedom of speech so just ignore such ignorant rants.

Good point about the studies, but did you realize there are two statements there?

Acoustics become essential at a certain point. Digitals are adequate before that point.

I am relatively sure you were saying there are no studies to support the second statement, but it would apply equally to the first. If you're going to insist on good quality scientific evidence, that is.

If we're going back to common understanding, realizing that the data may not fully support it, most of us myself included probably believe an acoustic is necessary for learning the fine nuances necessary for the serious conservatory bound, concert pianist intendee.

And if we're honest, that is such a tiny percentage of the piano student market that it is kind of silly to let it drive the entire field. Most students will never become professionals and will never understand the fine nuances but will derive enormous benefit from their study.

And now I would re-ask the evidence question: where is the evidence that the digital is unsuitable for that vast majority of students? (And consider that many of the great composers lived before the modern piano was developed, and never played on anything close to what is available today.)

There's probably no real data, but there's probably just as solid a common sense feel that the digital is adequate as there is a feel that the acoustic is better. Except for a few wackos on both sides, of course.

Scheesch Kaye, you could have warned us you had a big brute of a husband lurking behind you! PPM1994 is well rude which is, well, rude. But I still agree with him. Our children deserve better.

(Andre again - waiting for my registration to go through)

Thank you Bart, much appreciated...

And just so everyone understand our position: we don't believe a digital could ever "replace" an acoustic. It's a question of common sense. I believe teaching and learning on a digital piano has its differences.

You can't beat having over 20 tons of pure raw tension from the piano stings, and interacting with this massive power with hammers of felt, from a whisper to a roar, from a minimalistic ambient angle to a full-on explosion of sound.

But teaching and learning on a digital because that's all you have at the moment isn't a sin. It would be terrible to keep a child from learning piano just because the teacher or the parents own a digital piano.

And I'd rather have a student learning on a digital that's "relatively tuned" than on an acoustic that doesn't keep its tuning because one lives in a house that doesn't have automatic sustained regulation of humidity levels and uniform diffusion of heat/cool, the absence of which would more than likely affect negatively the otherwise wise and important investment of a piano.

One final note: if we look at life through the lenses of all things ideal, of course parents can $ave for years, or put an instrument on credit if they have access to it. I'm quite sure however, that children would much prefer learning to play the piano than obsess over whether or not they have the "right" piano.

So digital pianos, just like studio-size pianos or "baby grand" (commercial and practical solutions diminishing a true piano for the sake of functionality) have their utility.

But again, sadly, judgment can come easy for some who forget to pay attention to life's lessons and have a responsive heart. We do what we can with what we have, and work toward a better life, not despising the days of small beginnings.

It's snowing outside today, it's beautiful in freezing Alberta...

Regards,

Andre
Music for the Broken-Hearted

What's gonna be your tag 'Papa Bear'?

message moved

:) Could be...

(Andre here)

So far here is what PPM1194 has said:

"What kind of a human being... on a fake piano?!?!"

"To initiate a young student into the art of piano using a digital piano is truly a crime against that student, one of enourmous proportions."

"This is by far the most disturbing post I have yet encountered."

I can't agree with these statements. They have little to do with the topic of digital vs acoustic. They are base personal attacks.

Also, PianoWorld has forums for digital pianos as well as acoustic, then it must be assumed that for the forum's creators and administrators, digital pianos are deemed to be "pianos."

But I would again say that neither my wife or I even hinted at suggesting that a digital piano is a real piano. It's a clever computer using lesser quality mechanical copy of a piano action to try and emulate a REAL piano.

I worked in a piano repair shop, tuned pianos for years, sold acoustic and digital pianos in a music store, and never once encountered a digital piano that could make me forget it was a machine. (Technics digital pianos were rather amazing I must admit, but only the real thing is the real thing).

Regards,

Andre

PPM1994 is a very disturbed young man but sometimes out of the mouths (even foul) of babes sometimes comes truth. A DP is a digital (not even analogue!) recording of a piano. I'll say it again - our children deserve better. Hey I just had a thought - or otherwise they may all grow up to be like PPM1994!

And welcome to PW styzer!

Thanks keyboardklutz...

On that 'note,' I've heard samplings of grand pianos that were pretty darn good. But only a listener could mistake that for a real grand piano. Because the sound isn't all there is, it's a whole package...

But I truly enjoy that amazing sound. I know the piano isn't real, but the experience of its sound is real. But that's outside of the teaching context...

Regards,

andre

I am the founder, host, and owner of Piano World.

You can see my personal piano in the following picture...



Yes, it's a digital (Yamaha P-80).

Would I prefer a nice acoustic grand, sure. But I have neither the funds nor the space.

At least the keyboard is velocity sensitive, and has an ok action. Plus I can play whenever I want without disturbing anyone (I'm in a condo now) using wireless headphones.