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#1157190 - 03/04/09 01:24 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: keystring]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11689
Loc: Canada
Quote:
"Then you say, Keystring, "Communication begins by clarifying what is muddy - not by analyzing another's psychology (and likely getting it wrong). I do that as a teacher as well as as a linguist. "Could you clarify?" "What do you mean by that?" "I am understanding A - is this what you mean?" "It seems you want X - do you?"

That is exactly the situation I would like to avoid having!

We are not on the same page. First - the questioner in my idea is not the student, but the teacher. For example, the OP comes along, and he's talking about all sorts of things: piano, organ, Bach, Buxtehude, trills, skills that need revamping. Do you not want to draw out what it is that he actually wants? People here thought he wanted ornaments and fancy teachers. How can that go anywhere?

Clients phone me and tell me all kinds of information because they don't know what I need to know. So then I guide them, and the conversation takes on a different tack.

Is that not what you do?

I am not talking about discussing emotional issues, or whatever it is that you seem to be referring to. I am talking about a professional taking control, and asking the right questions in order to clarify what's going on.

I was also talking about written Internet (forum) communication which has its own traps: not interviews.

KS

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#1157195 - 03/04/09 01:37 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: keystring]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington

This is in reply to keystring first of two postings. Her 2nd posting came in while I was posting here so there is a gap in sequence. I have not read the 2nd posting yet.

Exactly! Real time is full of clues and the opportunity to verify and repeat things as understood.

The written word is entrapment of the worse kind in that once misunderstood or questioned, it takes on a life of it's own, with threads like cancer.

Nods, smiles, shrugs, pauses are warm and conveying. Every one happy?

On the opposite side the stomps, wails, anxiety, frustrations are clearly seen for what they are, the potential for verbal or physical abuse.

Perhaps I do read more negatively than other people do. This would creates an immediate concern of whether this could turn into potentially verbal or physical abuse or dysfunctional traits surfacing. A transfer of possible gestures would now accompany the written word as I have a vivid imagination and some acting and interpreting from story form ability. I take on characterization easily, and I also entrain with certain people in their thoughts and actions. I think these are natural abilities I was born with, but I have certainly developed them while teaching since teaching requires me to get inside the students head to understand his thinking process and interject ideas and information in ways that he understands and can use. In other words duplicating his learning style. I am saying, I may duplicate their speaking/writing style too, by "osmosis".

I think this ability is as faulty as it might be enlightening. Obviously its a consideration to one's perspective in the first place. I'm ingrained with doing this - I'm coming to realize.

The question would be rather it's valid or invalid, or both.

I do think of myself as an intuitive person.

Interesting turn of events here!

We can learn from probing questionable things, I think. And, I have a new awareness surfacing from participating in this topic.

Betty



Edited by Betty Patnude (03/04/09 01:41 PM)

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#1157199 - 03/04/09 01:41 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Betty Patnude]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
It's been suggested that the OP made a bad choice of words with this thread title, and I agree. By even suggesting that he may have been doing something "wrong" in a way that was probably rhetorical or self-deprecating, he inadvertently set himself up for reactions based on that presumption; inferences have been made (wrongly, IMO) about a supposed negativity that would justify that conclusion.

I gather that teachers in general prefer students whom they can teach what they want in the way they want. I'm not saying that's wrong, but it's a limitation that should be recognized as surely most suited to the naïveté, malleability and undemanding nature of a child. Is there typically a concern about a teacher and child student being a "good match" unless the parents have issues of their own?

An adult student—certainly one who is not a beginner and who has specific needs and targeted goals—just isn't going to be compatible with any teacher (or even most teachers). The narrower the focus of the adult student's requirements is, the harder it will be to locate a suitable teacher who has the specialized knowledge, teaching style and personality that the student seeks.

I agree that the OP needs to cast a much wider net. I think that teachers who would consider such an adult student too needy or revealing too much information about what he is seeking are obviously not the right ones. Far from doing anything "wrong," the OP's strategy seems to be a very reasonable and necessary filtering mechanism.

I found absolutely nothing negative in the OP's initial presentation. He has an atypical background and unusual goals that would inappropriately challenge most teachers; the fact that his requirements are specific challenges the comfort zone of teachers who are accustomed to, and happy with, the unquestioning nature of children and novices.

I'm sorry the OP didn't find much support here. It might be for the best if he already left the building after all, though I admit it's been a real eye-opener for me—and made me glad that I'm not looking for a teacher.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1157210 - 03/04/09 01:58 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: sotto voce]
ProdigalPianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 1049
Loc: Phoenix Metro, AZ
Originally Posted By: sotto voce
It might be for the best if he already left the building after all, though I admit it's been a real eye-opener for me—and made me glad that I'm not looking for a teacher.

Steven


Glad you (and I!) are not looking for a teacher on this board, anyway. eek

The OP strikes me as someone that a lot of the teachers I know would be thrilled to have...fairly serious, into serious music, willing to work, high standards, knowledgeable.

How that comes across as "needy" and "demanding" and "undesireable" I am at a loss to explain. In fact, for the right teacher I could imagine a friendship/mentorship developing. Comparing different recordings...going to recitals together.

I always think of threads like this when teachers start complaining about how they are losing students and income.

Honestly, I have to say that when I come up with a mental picture of the PW Teacher's Forum Piano Teacher...it's of a person who thinks the world owes them a living of teaching only a certain type of student who is and does and thinks exactly how the teacher wants. Nice work of you can get it. Wish I could say, "I want to get paid to do only and exactly this with no difficulties or variations."

I mean, no offense but I read Betty's posts about students who are verbally and physically abusive and I wonder, what on earth kind of piano studio is this in which this is a serious and ongoing problem to the point where you must have the "I have to protect myself" attitude toward potential students???
_________________________
Adult Amateur Pianist

My only domestic quality is that I live in a house.

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#1157221 - 03/04/09 02:11 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: sotto voce]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
I can understand your opinion, nicely state, quite well, Steven,

Part of the teachers confidence is that the lesson structure will meet the needs of the adult student because she is not going to neglect the needs of the students, nor the back ground of the student. All are contributing factors.

When you meet up with an accomplished very capable teacher you don't have to ask or explain about such things or make an issue of things you are concerned about because at the level at which you are seeking a teacher, those are the capacities you would expect them to have.

Ask about the teachers skill sets, their highest level of instruction they give, ask about their performance history, special interests. There is lots available about teachers on web sites these days.

I'm sorry that I am creating a disadvantage toward myself by being difficult or opinionated, it's a risk I'm taking. It's just that we need to understand each other better as to what works and what does not work. It bothers me when I read about situations that did not have to have the outcome they had.

It's a two way street....compatable works.....obtuse does not.

Betty

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#1157224 - 03/04/09 02:19 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: ProdigalPianist]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: ProdigalPianist


Glad you (and I!) are not looking for a teacher on this board, anyway. eek
Hey guys, I'll teach ya! And you won't even have ta buy a clavichord (or harpsichord).
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1157228 - 03/04/09 02:28 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: ProdigalPianist]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
I mean, no offense but I read Betty's posts about students who are verbally and physically abusive and I wonder, what on earth kind of piano studio is this in which this is a serious and ongoing problem to the point where you must have the "I have to protect myself" attitude toward potential students???
_________________________]

That's not quite what I said: I meant that we have to protect our selves and our other students from negative and difficult situations and this is possible why I look closely at behavior and attitudes at the interview.

I don't have difficult students or families in my studio - I am proud of the committment of my students and their helpfulness in creating a studio that is comfortable and friendly and productive.

My policy says I do not teach in chaos and confusion, which many studios these days don't select their clientele, they accept anyone who knocks and pays the bills.

Adults just don't seem to see the priviledge of learning from a capable teacher who will treat you like family and be supportive far beyond the call of duty. Not only do you get a good music education, you sometimes get a friend for life.

Adult students seem to demand that the learning go on to meet only their demands or interest and they treat what is primarily an "arts education" as only a recreational experience when it really asks so much more and delivers so much more to us than we are even aware of.

Sometimes obtuse and cross purposes don't help develop one's musicianship at all. That the teacher might teach with purpose and foresight doesn't seem to be understood.

There must be a heck of a lot of quack teachers that generated this kind of accessibility to piano lessons with no desire to educate the public about what music education is because they simply don't know the component parts of preparation for a musical life. Today anything goes and it's called teaching.

The biggest thing that piano teaching is, is the organization of the mind and body to approach learning and a productive outcome in music study. Organizing thoughts and actions to coordinate with a semblance of expertise.

Is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

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#1157233 - 03/04/09 02:32 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Cumbernauld, Scotland
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude

Adults just don't seem to see the priviledge of learning from a capable teacher who will treat you like family and be supportive far beyond the call of duty. Not only do you get a good music education, you sometimes get a friend for life.

Adult students seem to demand that the learning go on to meet only their demands or interest and they treat what is primarily an "arts education" as only a recreational experience when it really asks so much more and delivers so much more to us than we are even aware of.


Yet more Adult bashing. Will it ever end???
_________________________
Gerry Armstrong

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#1157234 - 03/04/09 02:34 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Betty Patnude]
ProdigalPianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 1049
Loc: Phoenix Metro, AZ
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude


Adults just don't seem to see the priviledge of learning from a capable teacher who will treat you like family and be supportive far beyond the call of duty. Not only do you get a good music education, you sometimes get a friend for life.

Adult students seem to demand that the learning go on to meet only their demands or interest and they treat what is primarily an "arts education" as only a recreational experience when it really asks so much more and delivers so much more to us than we are even aware of.



I guess the only thing I can say is that you and I know a wildly different bunch of adult pianists and piano students. Not only am I one, myself, but I am a member of a piano club in the metro area.

I am Very Very Very aware of what a privilege it is to have a good teacher. More aware than most because my first 6 years of lessons as a kid were wasted at best and damaging at worst. And I don't consider myself, my attitudes or my experiences to be the least bit unusual among the adults I know.

In fact, that is why I insist on having a teacher with at least a Master's in piano, and I recommend it to others (kids and adults alike).

There are times when my lessons have to be rescheduled because of me (my work, my illness) but no more often than they have to be rescheduled because of my teacher's rehearsal and performance (and life) schedule.
_________________________
Adult Amateur Pianist

My only domestic quality is that I live in a house.

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#1157268 - 03/04/09 03:44 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: ProdigalPianist]
Betty Patnude Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/07
Posts: 4896
Loc: Puyallup, Washington
Comment made:Glad you (and I!) are not looking for a teacher on this board, anyway."

It's too bad that all teachers participating in the forum are going to receive your wrath because of my postings.

It's rather rude to make that association.

No one really knows our capacity as individual teachers until they have spent some time with us and listened to our music and our teaching ideas.

I too admire those with accomplished degrees in their field of music, and I have certainly had that in my criteria of whom I have studied with throughout my life.

That some teachers don't have that certification on paper does not mean they are lacking. Kreisler has addressed that several times in his posting, and he is at the college faculty level of teaching. He also says, there are people holding credentials who are not at their forte in teaching.

When it comes to "adult bashing", I would like to call attention to the teacher bashing that goes on constantly. In the piano teachers forum there is so little participation these days, we are very much outnumbered by adult beginners and pianists and technicians.

I think receiving teacher bashing has been a contributing factor as well as the obvious problem that things said confidentially to other teachers as peers are pick on and picked apart by posters outside of the designation teachers.

I've been on the defensive the entire time of this topic, and it is not a comfortable place to be. One might throw up their hands in exasperation, but my teaching philosophy and my value judgments and the way I make them make sense to me and I stand by them.

People get involved with me by their choice, I involve myself with them through my choice making. Sometimes it's a wonderfully compatible situation, sometimes it turns out not to have been.

We don't just fall into good situations, we create them.

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#1157277 - 03/04/09 04:05 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Cumbernauld, Scotland
Betty,

Defending your Adult Bashing by saying Teacher Bashing goes on too is a very poor excuse. As the old saying goes, two Wrongs don't make a Right.

As I said in an earlier post, if I made similar comments about Women, People from a particular Race or People from a particular Religion then I would understand if they were offended.

I fail to understand why you and others who have made similar sweeping generalisations cannot comprehend that making these statements about all "Adults" as a group offends us Adults.
_________________________
Gerry Armstrong

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#1157284 - 03/04/09 04:27 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Gerry Armstrong]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3201
Loc: Virginia, USA
I've seen some adult bashing on this forum. (and it's stung a couple of times, as I am one of those adults) But in this thread? I don't think so.

I think most of those who have seemed critical of the OP have felt he might be a difficult adult, not that all adults are difficult. If you're reading generalized adult bashing into that, I think you're projecting some internal attitudes and not really picking up what's being said. I thought the teachers here were pretty fair in their approach to adults. I can certainly understand why some would not want to work with them at all, though I still think the average adult is easier than the average child - and doesn't come with a problem parent!

True, we're all working with some very limited data - a couple of posts from someone we've never met. It may be that seeing him as potentially difficult is unjustified. But based on the little we have, it's not completely unreasonable.

And in a way, it's a positive sign. If there's something he is doing wrong - as his post title suggests - then there's something he can fix. If not, if he's completely innocent and the world is at fault, then it's never going to improve, he has no hope. I'd like to give him that hope.

One thing this thread has done is make me rethink how I look for my next teacher.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#1157288 - 03/04/09 04:33 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: TimR]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Cumbernauld, Scotland
I wasn't refering to the OP's comments but various replies like:

"With a child, I can teach very intensively, but adults go at a slower pace. I feel they place obstacles in front of themselves and their pride gets in the way."

"Adults just don't seem to see the priviledge of learning from a capable teacher who will treat you like family and be supportive far beyond the call of duty."

"Adult students seem to demand that the learning go on to meet only their demands or interest and they treat what is primarily an "arts education" as only a recreational experience when it really asks so much more and delivers so much more to us than we are even aware of."

These are sweeping generalisations about Adults as a group that I vehemently disagree with. All adults are not like this at all and I take great offence at being categorised in this way simply because I'm an Adult.
_________________________
Gerry Armstrong

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#1157291 - 03/04/09 04:34 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Betty Patnude]
ProdigalPianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 1049
Loc: Phoenix Metro, AZ
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
Comment made:Glad you (and I!) are not looking for a teacher on this board, anyway."

It's too bad that all teachers participating in the forum are going to receive your wrath because of my postings.

It's rather rude to make that association.


There is no wrath. Only a perplexity that the attitudes expressed here seem so different than the attitudes of pianists, teachers and adult students I know in real life.

When I spoke of the Piano World Piano Teacher's Forum Piano Teacher I was describing a fictitious person that is made up of a conglomeration of attitudes I have read here from multiple persons. The fact that some teachers on the board might find this fictitious teacher and the attitudes I attributed to him/her offensive, says more about how teachers are coming across in their posts than anything else. I doubt people are as off-putting to their potential student/customer base in real life as some come across on this board.

Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude


Adults just don't seem to see the priviledge of learning from a capable teacher who will treat you like family and be supportive far beyond the call of duty. Not only do you get a good music education, you sometimes get a friend for life.

Adult students seem to demand that the learning go on to meet only their demands or interest and they treat what is primarily an "arts education" as only a recreational experience when it really asks so much more and delivers so much more to us than we are even aware of.


You say it is rude of me to make the association between how one (or several) teacher(s) on this board posts, and all teachers participating on the forum...but you cannot see why adult students reading this find the above rude and offensive? Really? (I'm not being nasty I'm just perplexed...)
_________________________
Adult Amateur Pianist

My only domestic quality is that I live in a house.

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#1157292 - 03/04/09 04:34 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Betty Patnude]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5934
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: Betty Patnude
I think receiving teacher bashing has been a contributing factor as well as the obvious problem that things said confidentially to other teachers as peers are pick on and picked apart by posters outside of the designation teachers.

Betty, you can't have confidential conversations on a public forum. The whole world can read what you say!

I haven't time now for a detailed response (I have to go and teach one of my hard-working, serious, enthusiastic adult students) but I have to say I'm distressed (as I always am) when the conversation goes in this "them-and-us" way that it's going.

Teachers (not specifically Betty), if you don't want to teach adult students, then don't. You don't have to justify your choices with all this tosh about "adults are..." "adults don't..." Just don't teach them, and leave them to those of us who appreciate them.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1157294 - 03/04/09 04:38 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: TimR]
ProdigalPianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 1049
Loc: Phoenix Metro, AZ
Originally Posted By: TimR
One more comment. This has been alluded to by several, but not spelled out.

The OP mentioned his strategy was to find teachers on the web and set up interviews.

In a very traditional field, what percentage do you think advertise on the web? Or are even computer literate? I know everybody here is, at least enough to get on a forum. But that's a small portion of the teachers out there. And how many of you have your own web sites?

I'm thinking he's not fishing in a big enough pond.


BTW Tim I think you are right about this and meant to say so earlier. The best teachers I know (and know of) personally do not have websites. That's not to say "teachers with websites are not the best"...just to say, the teachers that I know, who I think would be pleased to meet and teach the OP, would not be found during a web search...
_________________________
Adult Amateur Pianist

My only domestic quality is that I live in a house.

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#1157297 - 03/04/09 04:46 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: currawong]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Though I wouldn't have thought to use the term "adult bashing" for what I've read in this particular thread, I've gotten the sense that adult students are generally considered problematic. The term "baggage" has been used, which tends to make me cringe. What's "baggage" but the cumulative consequences of life's experiences? If adult students have it, so do teachers and all adults who haven't spent their lives under a rock or in a coma.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1157332 - 03/04/09 05:58 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: TimR]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11689
Loc: Canada
I've withdrawn my question. Don't want the flames to go higher. Did somebody mention a bonfire a while back? Weeny roast for all? How about a masked ball so we can't tell which is the teacher and which is the student? We can all pretend to be the opposite and keep everyone guessing. Or even more dastardly, be who we are, confound the stereotypes and really cause confusion. wink

KS


Edited by keystring (03/04/09 06:12 PM)

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#1157342 - 03/04/09 06:15 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: keystring]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
And what about clavichord bashing? No one seems to mind that.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1157344 - 03/04/09 06:19 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: keyboardklutz]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5934
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: keyboardklutz
And what about clavichord bashing? No one seems to mind that.

No clavichord bashing from me - I love my little fretted clavichord! Closest thing to actually playing the strings with your fingers.
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1157346 - 03/04/09 06:21 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: currawong]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Yes, yes, that's exactly it!
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1157347 - 03/04/09 06:23 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: keystring]
currawong Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/15/07
Posts: 5934
Loc: Down Under
Originally Posted By: keystring
Or even more dastardly, be who we are

Sounds good to me smile
_________________________
Du holde Kunst...

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#1157350 - 03/04/09 06:27 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Andromaque Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/08
Posts: 3886
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
NeilOS
May I offer an unsollicited comment regarding your website. The very first sentence is very off-putting and quite passé(e)!
The term "old wife tale" is offensive to many women today and certainly does not belong on a site that presumes to appeal to students of both genders.
passé(e)? Offensive? Do wives not get old? Do they not hold to traditions that have no basis in science? At least traditionally? (it comes from a time when women had no involvement in science) You cannot be allowed to denude our language in such a 'cavalier' fashion. (is that derogatory to cavaliers?) And is there anything wrong with old wives tales? If you don't take them at face value they often contain more truth. The term itself says buckets about the cultural practices of previous generations. I miss 'old wives'. Those were the days! [/quote]

__________________________________
KbK, as you well know the term "old wife tale" is used to describe inaccuracies, fallacies, myths.. I join your interest in empirical knowledge and opinion based on years of experience, but that is not what this term refers to. As for "wives" not being involved in science back then, well neither were husbands, but I have never heard the term "old husbands' tale" bandied about.
I suggest we hold on to the valuable traditions of language not the bigoted ones. As for you missing old wives, what did you do to scare them away?? grin

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#1157353 - 03/04/09 06:30 PM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Andromaque]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
Originally Posted By: Andromaque
As for you missing old wives, what did you do to scare them away?? grin
If only.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1157517 - 03/05/09 01:04 AM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: keyboardklutz]
Candywoman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 842
Nowadays you can't say ANYTHING in a public forum without twenty people picking it apart. That says a lot about our current, extraordinarily scrupulous society.

This is the REAL crux of the matter. Have you read 1984, by George Orwell? Folks, that's where you're headed.

We need to ALLOW others to state their opinions. And LISTEN more instead of getting so easily offended.

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#1157522 - 03/05/09 01:15 AM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Candywoman]
keyboardklutz Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/07
Posts: 10856
Loc: London, UK (though if it's Aug...
When everybody no matter who they are gets their say it is very much not 1984. Maybe Night of the Living Dead.
_________________________
snobbyish, yet maybe helpful.
http://keyboardclass.blogspot.com/


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#1157524 - 03/05/09 01:19 AM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Candywoman]
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Originally Posted By: Candywoman
Nowadays you can't say ANYTHING in a public forum without twenty people picking it apart. That says a lot about our current, extraordinarily scrupulous society.

This is the REAL crux of the matter. Have you read 1984, by George Orwell? Folks, that's where you're headed.

We need to ALLOW others to state their opinions. And LISTEN more instead of getting so easily offended.


"You're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts." That quotation is attributed to Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

I don't believe scrupulousness is a bad thing, and don't find the comparison with 1984 to be apposite.

I think that anyone who posts something publicly shouldn't be surprised if called upon to support it. Generally, in my experience, accusations of nitpicking are made by those who expect that uninformed opinions and sloppy facts should go unchallenged.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#1157561 - 03/05/09 03:47 AM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Candywoman]
Gerry Armstrong Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 214
Loc: Cumbernauld, Scotland
Originally Posted By: Candywoman
Nowadays you can't say ANYTHING in a public forum without twenty people picking it apart. That says a lot about our current, extraordinarily scrupulous society.

This is the REAL crux of the matter. Have you read 1984, by George Orwell? Folks, that's where you're headed.

We need to ALLOW others to state their opinions. And LISTEN more instead of getting so easily offended.



As I pointed out earlier, if I had said about Black people for example what you said about Adults as a group I would have been labelled a Racist.

It is staggering that you still think you are entitled to make these generalisations about a group of people in a public forum and then it's their fault if they are offended.

If you refrain from making offensive comments about groups of people in the first place then they won't be offended.
_________________________
Gerry Armstrong

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#1157565 - 03/05/09 04:31 AM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Gerry Armstrong]
keystring Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11689
Loc: Canada
Candywoman,
Quote:
And LISTEN more .....

I'm listening. What is it that you want to tell me? I'm an adult student. Let's start there.

KS

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#1158245 - 03/06/09 02:01 AM Re: What am I doing so wrong? [Re: Betty Patnude]
Candywoman Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 842
When you study writing at school, they tell you not to preface everything with, "In my opinion." This is because it is understood that when you speak it is your opinion. And in my opinion, all the things I've noticed about MY adult students are true. The fact that Gerry Armstrong wishes to take my experiences and find something to offend himself with is not my problem.

I have noticed that there are many people who have to relate everything to themselves. If I tell you I have a sore toe, you can list all the times you've bumped YOUR toe, or you can empathize with my pain. Very few people in conversation are able to do this. That's an example of really listening.

What I wish to say to Keystring and Gerry Armstrong is keep going at your own pace and enjoying music. The time you whittle away on this thread could be better spent practicing.

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