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Moody: LOL! I agree with you, but I'm not sure I would have resorted to violence. I think that like you and Betty said, if we hold each other accountable, then there's less of a chance for this kind of abuse.

This reminds me of a different kind of abuse that can be found in this field. There is a teacher locally who moved to the area and began teaching voice and piano lessons. However, she didnt' really teach anything. She would have her students help her out with her business, which was a clothing store of some sort. She would ask them to model for her advertisements, as well as do telemarketing for her. She once approached me to model, and I flatly refused. I received one of her students and learned about this from her. She was alos going around town claiming to me an MTNA member, which after our local chapter did some digging we found out was a lie. We sent her a letter detailing the requiremnts for joining the organization, including the dues, and said in no uncertain terms that she must complete before she can claim to be a member. We heard from the chapter in the town where she used to live, and she pulled the same kind of stuff. She's been rather silent as of late, not sure if she's still around, actually.

I am not in favor of a teacher berating any student regardless of age publicly or privately. However the original thread posting raises questions in my mind.

What are five year old's doing playing in piano competitions? I was under the impression that six or seven was an appropriate age to start formal piano lessons. Are these five year old gifted students? Is the teacher in question one who specializes in teaching gifted children most likely bound for a concert piano career? Are teachers who specialize in teaching gifted children generally stricter and possibly "meaner" than say teachers who teach children who are not really expected to become concert pianists?

Suzanne

it is pretty common to see a 5 year old in a piano competition, not that common but still common enough...

that's not true, formal lessons can start at the age of 5, it just always depends on the child themselves. Not all are gifted, some are just self-motivated.

Well, my teacher treats all of her students the same and is as strict with every individual whether the child will grow up to be a concert pianist or not. I do sometimes ask my teacher to push me more...

The sheer physical task of climbing up the piano bench, sitting at a large grand piano, and getting close enough to the keys to touch them, is an issue for young children.

The "physics" are very "off" for someone who does not have a body sized to see the music without thrusting the chin in the air, creating lots of stress on the body, holding the arms at a level where the hands can play the keys, the size and movement ability of little hands, fingers, and knuckles. It amazes me that most people think this is a "grand" experience for a child to be able to play at an over-sized piano.

In our family, we had a group of grandmothers and great grandmothers on both side who were short 5'2 to 4'8. I luck out at 5'2 and feel absolutely tall above the other women in the immediate family.

"Little Grandma" (4'8") drove a light green studebaker (a small car)and she would grasp the wheel with both hands and sit as tall as she could to see over the dashboard. You could barely see her head through the windshield. This reminds me of the very small person on the bench.

My other thought about the size of things is that Edsel manufactured a very big but short-lived car. I sat in one and felt like the windows started about the level of my ears, and the seat was deep and swallowed me up, the dashboard and controls seemed far away. I looked around and got out of the car as fast as possible, I wanted nothing to do with.

I wonder if small children feel these kinds of sensations when they are in a challenging situation for their body size and development.

If this not a faulty beginning for them?

I have seen videos of little ones, and a serverely handicapped young woman doing remarkable work on the piano. But, the difficulty factor has to be huge for them.

Anyone have any thoughts on the size of the pianist? As well as competitions for that age group?

Please enlighten me.

I don't know about competitions, but I generally don't encourage my students to perform in recitals until they are at least 6 or 7. I ask, depending on whether the child wants perform, but I never push the younger ones.

As for the size of the pianist, I try my best to have an adjustable bench in every studio, and I am desperately seeking a pedal extender so my students' feet can touch some solid ground. We can't change the size of the piano but we can sure change the height at which the students sit.

Betty:

Well, apparently a lot of parents want their kids to get yelled at by this piano teacher. The owner of the music school where she works told me that "I can hear her yelling in the parking lot." So I guess everybody knows what they're getting into when they sign up to have piano with this mean teacher. She thrives on this reputation. :rolleyes:

My college piano pedagogy teacher was one of these "mean teachers" and (as I alluded to in a previous post on a different thread), I strive to be the opposite of her in many ways. She was a world-renowned pedagogue and performer, but she would often insult and belittle her students and their parents, and her students would often leave lessons in tears. (She was russian, by the way).

She told our class that she believes that most piano students have large egos that need to be whittled down (by means of yelling, insulting, fear-mongering, etc). -- I would have to say that I disagree! This description might apply to some students (maybe ones who have been told that they are "gifted" or have been brought up to believe that they are better than others), but most students that I have met are in need of encouragement (with constructive criticism- of course).

This teacher yelled at the 7-year-old student whose lessons were part of our class. She called her stupid and threatened to send her back one level if she couldn't learn to play staccato against legato on the spot. The girl cried, and, after many tries, she finally did it -- once. After the girl left, the teacher said "You may not agree with my methods, but I got her to do it, didn't I?"

I think (especially for this particular teacher) that it boils down to an issue of pride and arrogance. The teacher wants to protect their reputation at all costs.

I keep comparing this situation to that of high school and college sports. We all know the stereotype (apparently accurate) of coaches yelling at their players during halftime. This is supposed to motivate the team. Half of these teams then go out and proceed to win the game. This convinces the coaches that yelling at players is effective. :rolleyes:

Last weekend I was at my 8 year old son's soccer game. The opposing coach yelled at his team throughout the entire game. The content of what he said was not mean, but the volume and tone of voice had all us parents on the other team cringing. If that had been my son's coach, I would've taken him off the team after the first practice.

There is absolutely no justification for yelling meanly at a 5 year old child.

Reading this over, I realize this is more a stream of consciousness than a set of logically oriented arguments, so I'll try to redeem myself with the following: There's an important difference between high standards and constructive criticism vs. being mean. The former is good and the latter is bad.

Pardon an off topic comment, but Monica's sports examples just brought this story back to me.

My eldest (who plays the piano) played on a travel hockey team from about age eight to age eleven. The coach was one who would get 'in their faces' quite often. I will say that in some cases he was effective. Kids at this age often go into la-la land and a sharp comment from a coach can pull them back to attention.

Well, we were at a practice one evening and the coach was in rare form. He was quite loud that evening. Then from over the balcony above the rink, the leader of a cheerleading squad leans out and starts to berate him for using foul language. The coach didn't miss a beat....

"I said 'get the PUCK,' lady, that's P-U-C-K, PUCK."

:p

My answer to that would be not necessarily. Some people respond to that kind of instruction, but I think it's few and far between. Most students will be lost in the long run using those methods.

Throughout my music career, I've often pondered why classical music has to be so serious. I think this goes along with the mean question.

Example: In college I had a mean piano professor, he was so cold and cruel. (this was my piano lesson teacher) Well, I asked for a transfer to a different teacher, who was much better but still uber serious. I didn't have much fun in college as a music major, even my theory and ear training classes were dull and dreary.

That said, I don't think this has to be the case. I think that music is really joyous and should be celebrated. It's meditative. It's creative.

My favorite class in college was medieval choir because the professor was full of life, interesting and funny. He certainly got a lot of great music out of us as well! So it wasn't detrimental.

My point is, music doesn't have to be so dry and dull and strict. Definitely not mean. Teachers should pass the joy of music on to students. Then it would truly be a gift worth giving.

Can't say I've met too many Jazz/Blues teacher's that have this kind of a reputation, but on the Classical side, I've meet a few.

These teacher's usually only have 1 or no children of their own. So, fortunately or unfortunately, don't really know, or better, don't care to know kids. There mind set is on being the number #1 teacher of all their peers! A lot is at stake for them. Prestige and prize winners! They get the students and the respect from the parents with waiting list an arm long!

To add, some of these teachers aren't always obviously mean on the outside, (some are, yes) like yelling at the kids, but a lot of these teachers are mean mentally and that's how they work their magic. These mean teachers usually have a time frame. Mentally they have mind games to get the student to practice more and more. They have an agenda which is to get these kids to finish their ARCT by grade 9 (Age 15) or sooner! With the parents help, they usually get them to their mark. But at a price!Hours and hours of practice, and very little social life.

Here's where I see the problem. There are winners and loser. The winning students are the ones that "get the gold ring" at the end. But God help the ones who don't get the final touch-down at the end of their piano experience. Has to leave a mark!

For the ones who succeed, they are the ones getting the standing ovations at the concert halls!

I guess they can brag about having a teacher that was a "Son of a Witch" with a capital "B".

If a teacher yelled at me, I'd yell back. The conversation would end with, "You're fired."

If a teacher yelled at my kid, I'd yell at the teacher. The conversation would end with, "You're fired."

I can defend myself, because I am an adult. A child cannot.

It's really very unprofessional and inexcusable behavior.

Would any of you honestly give any business to a vendor, store merchant, plumber, accountant (or similar) who was mean to you? I'm not sure why this situation would be any different.

Treat others as you would like to be treated.