My son took recorder when he was 3.5 years old using suzuki method. He has very good ear and great musical sense. I am wondering when can he starts piano lesson? I have heard that note reading at a young age will teach a kid to learn music in a "logical" and "mechanical" way instead of being musical. Is that true?

Not at all. It's simply something that happens in a different order. For traditional teaching, a student will learn to play very simple songs while they are learning to read. As their reading progresses, so does the complexity of the piece. However, students can be expressive playing simple melodies too. It all depends on the teacher.

Even for Suzuki students, it is important for every student to learn to read music. With Suzuki, however, many students can play a lot more advanced music than they can read, so when it is time for them to learn to read, they have to take a big step back in the repertoire. Some good teachers will get them reading reading earlier so this transition isn't as difficult, but it still will happen. I've known many students who quit piano at this time in their Suzuki training because of the difficulty and the music, they think, is less interesting than they were previously playing by ear. So each method (Suzuki vs. Traditional) has its benefits and drawbacks.

As far as your son is concerned, if he starts piano at a young age (say 5 years), his progress will be a bit slower than if he starts at age 8. This is because at age 5 he is not used to homework (practicing) and reading words, so the concept of reading notes is a bit harder. An older student will already be comfortable with reading, and so reading notes will be just like learning to read another language. Also, think of the development of the fingers. 8 year old hands and fingers can do a lot more subtle things than 5 year old hands can. I have some younger students (age 5) and I do a lot of singing, large muscle movements (like walking to the beat, stomping, clapping, etc.) in addition to time at the bench. This helps make music less mechanical for them and more responsive.

There's a Suzuki method for recorder? I guess they try to make that method work for any instrument. I teach piano and learned it the traditional way; however, I also studied the violin via the Suzuki method. Since I already knew how to read notes and had perfect pitch, I was progressing at a pace way faster than what my Suzuki teacher could accommodate. I switched teachers and learned violin the "traditional" way before I quit violin in high school to focus on piano.

Back to your question--"logical" and "mechanical" are not necessarily the opposite of "musical." In fact, if the kid can't read notes early on, he will struggle later and won't be able to express his musicality. I taught a transfer student who is extremely "musical," but his previous teacher didn't bother to teach him how to read notes. He basically imitated her gestures (through videotaped lessons) and got quite far in piano. Alas, when he came to me, he can't sight read anything. He has no concept of rhythm. And when I tried to get him to "start over" with the basics, he lost interest and quit.

You will find there are camps of teachers who either embrace Suzuki completely or denounce it completely. I say it really depends on the individual teacher, but from my personal experience (having taken Suzuki for violin and accepted problematic students from Suzuki teachers in my area) I have to recommend that you go with the "logical" and "mechanical" route.

If he did well with Suzuki recorder, then go ahead and start him in Suzuki Piano if he's still young.

If he's 8 or older, start him in traditional lessons.

The issue isn't so much which is better as it is when you do it. Young children (ages 3-6) tend to do well with a method that is more experiential (like Suzuk - it's designed to begin at that age.) Older children (ages 7 or 8 up) have minds that are ready and eager for the kind of structure that a more traditional note-reading method can provide.

ahhhhhhhhhhhh omg i LOVE suzuki. I started with Suzuki when i was 3, took it until i was 11 (i think) then switched over to RCM, and boy am I EVER glad i did suzuki, simply for the ear training involved. All my RCM teachers frowned upon Suzuki, but it all depends on the teacher. My teacher really stressed the ear training, but i DID also learn to read music, very well! You can't just focus on the one... it seems suzuki only focuses on ear and RCM only focuses on note reading, but with the right teacher you'll learn both no matter what program your in.

To answer your question, if he WANTS to play piano, and if he enjoyed and understood recorder, you can start him now in piano lessons. I generally don't teach anyone under 6, but with musical experience already, your son has an upper edge over most children.

I am thinking is 4.5 too early.

I teach Suzuki piano. I take students as young as 4 1/2.

My students do learn to read music very well. This is one of the reasons my students learn by ear first; as an aid to reading music later!

I personally do not have dropouts, because of any reading factor, or just playing by ear factor. My students receive a well-rounded music education, that I feel is so important.

It is nice to know Ashdyre had a good experience with her Suzuki training.

Like any method, traditional or Suzuki, there are good teachers and not so good.

I, by the way, also have my students in evaluations, etc... I believe in the philosophy of the Suzuki method, but I do deviate in repertoire, as the child advances and I do not strictly stay Suzuki, that is I do not use the Suzuki books exclusively, after book 2. And I have my own way of educating my students to be well-rounded musicians so they therefore do not need to find another teacher when they get older.

I also teach students as young as 4 years old. It depends on the method and the teacher. I actually prefer younger students because it's much easier to develop their ear. Most teachers won't teach a child this age so you have to do your research and either find a private teacher who specializes in young children, or find a method specifically designed for this age (such as Harmony Road, Yamaha, or Music For Young Children).

Hi all,...

I'm also in the process of looking for a teacher for my 5 year old son,...

pianobuff,... if you don't mind,... can you explain what a typical curriculum that you go through in the first year with a 5 years old?

There's a teacher who's highly recommended by a friend who teaches a modified Suzuki method,... she's an NCTM,... however,... my friend mentioned that she will not teach any note reading at all in the first year and for the whole year my son will only learn 1 song - twinkle-twinkle little star - until he can play it perfectly. My concern is that my son will get bored and be turned off to piano if he is asked to play one song over and over again for a whole year. But I wonder if such repetition and perfectionism is necessary to build the basics that will allow him to progress quicker after the first year.

Edit: One more thing to add,... I want my son to enjoy music and playing the piano,... If he loves it and wants to take it further then great,... if not then I won't force him to be a concert pianist

Regards,

Robert

My kids started the Yamaha method at 3. When they are 3/4/5 the piano is a tool for learning music. It's not piano lessons. An incredible amount of it is ear training (through games/activities/simple pieces). Solfege (fixed-Do) is the norm. The school here in Lexingotn, MA is the only one in the US owned/run by Yamaha (which is the norm elsewhere). I can't say enough good things about the program! I'm jealous. Best part, the kids argue with me every night after to do music homework. I have to fight saying no, due to the fact that I've had a long day. Note: until age five a parent must accompany the student to class - and participate (that way what is practiced at home truly reinforces the goals of the class).

See www.ymsboston.com if you're curious.

Something to consider about young starters---as a parent, you need to be able and willing to sit down with them each night to practice with them. Some parents don't realize that there needs to be a serious support sytem away from the teacher.
It's much, much different than playing a recorder. I know this as a piano parent and student now ----and as having played clarinet for 5 years.

My son has been playing for 2 years. He started a week after he turned 4. I STILL work through his piano lessons with him everyday.

Our teacher tells me that folks bring their little ones to her a lot and they expect that it will be as easy as dropping their kid off for a lesson. In fact, she requires those kids to have lessons twice a week simply because parents DON'T work with their kids on the music and their assignments. Think about it--could you give a 5 year old homework and expect him/her to complete it without guidance? Rarely so.

That's just my two cents and what I have lived through experience.

Both of my kids cycled through a class piano program that started when they were 3-1/2 ( Keys For Kids ), and both thrived in it, except for the occasional grousing about the class moving too slow.

I rather enjoyed the method. At a very young age, they were exposed to keyboard skills, rhythm exercises, music/movement, notation and ear training. It was very well-graduated.

They thrived because of two things...I had a rigid goal for them that practice, at first, would be an uninterrupted 5 minutes. Soon enough that was 15 minutes, then 20, then 30. Part 2: every day. No exceptions. When we traveled, we took a mini-keyboard and did what we could.

In class, it was easy to tell those who practiced and those who didn't. The ones who practiced progressed quickly. At young ages, kids need parental supervision during practice (until they learn how to practice). I think some parents are just too busy to monitor practice, and insist upon it every day. That works against the child's progress.

Learning piano in a "logical" and "mechanical"
way is the very best way to learn the
piano, the way a civilized person would
learn it. Throwing out all logic and
mechanics and teaching piano by emotion
and feeling is the worst possible way to teach
the piano, in my opinion. That way you
throw out all civilization and return
to the level of a savage or an animal.

During the time a student is studying and learning about piano, the teacher must appeal to all of his working senses, and at the same time be building the acquired knowledge section which the brain will relate to - both in theory and functioning (using) the information. The brain acquires a specific knowledge to reach the student at all levels - each and every week - until the foundation to build on is in place.

Then it is simply adding to repertoire and working through new techniques and keeping up with theory to support the student. Listening skills, decision making, management, prioritizing, and "other things" are added and the student becomes more independant during the journey, until pretty much self-actualized.

Think journey! Think adventure!

Betty

Hmmm...

Well, it should definately not take a whole year to be able to play Twinkle Twinkle Litte Star.

Maybe she meant review? I do have my students review their pieces they have learned always polishing and working on perfection throughout Book 1. Just like learning a language.

Children love this, especially if the parents don't complain!

I do not teach reading formally until the end of Book 1.

Sometimes it will take 3 years to finish Book one, sometimes only 1 year. It depends on the child. How long it takes really doesn't matter, unless it is because they are not practicing.

But to stay on one song until it is perfected before going on to the next, is not what I do, or what I recommend.

Playing all of Book 1 at performance level before going on to Book 2, is more what I expect.

I would observe some lessons from this teacher. She sounds interesting.

Maybe your friend meant perfecting the Twinkle variations before starting Honeybee (the first piece after Twinkles.) I can see this more, because the variations are used to establish the technique necessary for playing the other pieces with ease and beauty. But still, it should definately not take a year. Average is one to three months for a five year old, depending on the student, for the four variations.

Originally posted by Robert H:
"Hi all,...I'm also in the process of looking for a teacher for my 5 year old son,.."

The good news and fun for a 5 year old, is to know that when you play "Twinkle Little Star", you have also learned "Baa, Baa, Black Sheep" and A-B-C-D-E-F-G, The Alphabet Song.

Change the words and the repetitions of the repeated fingers into the rhythm of the words, and you magically have 3 songs to sing and play!

Enjoy this 3 in 1 song! I have it in a pre-chart using melody between both hands in a fixed position, and fingering numbers. PM if you want it and a small collection of the same type of beginning children's songs. They are short and fun.

The biggest advantage to precharts is that it sets up fingering forever as the important choice that it is, one can not play piano without having a fingering impulse. Working with precharts brings fingering to the forefront.

Betty

Hi Betty, pianobuff,...

Thanks for your comments

We're going to meet with the teacher on Monday so we can get her explanations of her teaching method and get our questions answered. I'll post any updates after the meeting.

Regards,

Robert

Great! Looking forward!

Hi all,...

first,... ecmom,... sorry for hijacking your thread,...

Betty, pianobuff,...

We met with the teacher yesterday and you're right,... she adjusts the pace of the lesson depending on the student,... she said that typically a student will go through the Suzuki Book 1 in a year or two,... and that there are 19 pieces in the book,... so,... not just 1 piece for the whole year. However,... she did say that she has a transfer student that took a whole year to learn one piece,... but probably a more complicated piece,...

The whole first book will be done without learning to read music,... the teacher will play and the student will listen and copy the finger movements,... more focus on ear training, posture, hand position, rythm and being able to play the piece perfectly. Also some focus on performing etiquette and how to focus before starting to play, and the understanding that performing is giving a gift of music to the audience.

Students will not work on whole songs at one time,... songs are divided into sections and each 30/45 minutes lesson will focus on 1-2 sections,... 15 minutes on the piano then the rest will be spent on games and other learning activities.

Note reading will be introduced as the student start Book 2,... or a bit earlier depending on the student,... she does not recommend any method books that shows the note letter or finger number under the notes,... more focus on intervals (steps/skips) between the notes and direction from one note to the next,...

Recitals twice a year with 3-4 pieces each,... graduation at the completion of each book where the student will have to perform every piece in the book by memory.

One parent has to be present at every lessons to listen and take note,... and practice during the week,...

Those were the major things we discussed,... A good meeting overall,... it gives me and my wife a better understanding of her teaching style,... We're still planning to interview a couple other teachers before we decide,...

Regards,

Robert

Thanks for the update, Robert.

Very close to how I teach.

Except I don't play games.

I feel the lesson is used for the child to learn focus/concentration. Games, for me, derail this.

Instead I would shorten the lesson to fit the student's attention span. Or we may take "a stretch break" great for me too!

Does she have group lessons? This is when my young students play games as a group, breaking the ice for performance.

Have you heard her other students play? This to me is important in finding a good teacher. Going to some of the recitals of teachers you're interviewing would be a great way to hear their students play. Great time of year for this!

Keep us posted on your piano teacher quest!

Hi pianobuff,...

She only has 5 students right now,... I believe all of them are older than 10 years old,... so she told us that she is not sure whether she will have group lessons or not,...

My son and I went to her students' recital last week and I think it was good,... they were not perfect,... but I still think it's amazing to me since they were playing some hard pieces from memory,...

I'll check to see if the other teachers have their recital coming up,...

Regards,

Robert

You can start sitting with a child, putting their fingers on the keys for simple tunes, at about 2 1/2 years of age. Make it fun, and make it a daily habit just like reading stories. The musical skills develop in the same way that reading and speech abilities develop.
By 3 1/2 to 4 years of age (plus or minus), the child will be able to play without an external guide.
I think the quality of musicianship that comes from this is much richer and deeper, for the same reasons that learning language is richer and deeper when learned earlier.
Incidentally, the research about absolute pitch shows that while there is most likely a hereditary predisposition to develop this faculty, the majority of those with absolute pitch, and other forms of highly acute ear skills, have started music lessons before age 5, and preferably before age 4.