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#937933 - 08/02/08 10:17 AM tie question
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2629
Loc: Maine
I'm embarrassed to ask this as I've been playing many years but I have forgotten the rules for ties. I've gone back to a piece I learned and now I'm wondering if I've been playing it correctly. Specifically Chopin's waltz 34.2. Starting with measure 1... when the two chords are tied is the C repeated or held? I've been holding them. And on the last section (where the bass notes run), same question; all those chords that are tied...are the similar notes held or repeated? I'm thinking held but learned the piece repeating the notes. Many thanks for any help.
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"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
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#937934 - 08/02/08 11:20 AM Re: tie question
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Peyton, of course I'm not a teacher but I saw your query and checked the notes in back of my Paderewski edition to see if there are variants between publishers.

There was no comment about the repeated notes being held, and in the score they aren't tied. (There are, however, slurs consistently connecting those chords on beats 2 and 3.)

Keep on repeating them; I don't think there's any question but that you're playing them correctly.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#937935 - 08/02/08 01:50 PM Re: tie question
gooddog Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/08
Posts: 4841
Loc: Seattle area, WA
Don't be embarassed. We all get confused sometimes.

In my ancient Schirmer edition the (right hand) C's are clearly repeated. Only the top notes are slurred. In every recording I've ever heard, all the right hand notes are repeated.

In the last section, when the bass notes run, (I think this starts a measure 169 if I counted correctly) - don't hold any of the notes except:
178 hold the second B
179 hold the F#,
182 hold the b
183 old the F# etc.

Oh, and by the way, it's always a good idea to give measure numbers.

Hope this helps.
_________________________
Best regards,

Deborah

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#937936 - 08/02/08 05:47 PM Re: tie question
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2629
Loc: Maine
Many thanks. I'm not sure where I got the idea that slurs/ties between similar notes meant to hold them. They are held when the tie connects two similar notes in subsequent measures so maybe that's why?

You have been a big help!!
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#937937 - 08/02/08 05:57 PM Re: tie question
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
In my understanding, whether the mark is a tie or a slur (it's the same type of line, after all!) depends entirely on whether the notes are the same pitch (tie) or different pitch (slur).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_%28music%29

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#937938 - 08/02/08 06:35 PM Re: tie question
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2629
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by sotto voce:
In my understanding, whether the mark is a tie or a slur (it's the same type of line, after all!) depends entirely on whether the notes are the same pitch (tie) or different pitch (slur).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tie_%28music%29

Steven [/b]
So... a tie crosses measures and holds the note and a slur asks for legato? Uh oh... I'm getting confused again. \:\)
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#937939 - 08/02/08 06:54 PM Re: tie question
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
A tie holds the note, but doesn't necessarily cross a barline. (Within a measure, it would represent a duration that can't be shown with a single note type or a dotted note—like the quarter note tied to a sixteenth note in the Wikipedia article.)

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

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#937940 - 08/02/08 07:14 PM Re: tie question
keystring Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 11843
Loc: Canada
The symbol for tie and slur looks the same - a curvy line. A slur joins different pitches and indicates that they are to be played legato, and often indicates that they are considered a phrase. A tie joins two notes of the same pitch together and means that those two notes are actually one note to be held for the duration of their combined value. For example, if an E quarter note and an E eighth note of the same pitch are joined with a tie, you hold them as one note at the value of 1 1/2 beats in tempo where the quarter note gets the beat (3/4, 4/4 etc.)

There are two occasions where a tie can happen. supposing that you have 4/4 time but for some reason you want to hold a note for 5 beats. You can only fit 4 beats into 4/4 time, so you would have a whole note (4 beats) in one bar, and a quarter note (1 beat) in the next bar, so that the note will be held for 4 + 1 = 5 beats.

At other times because of the grammar of time signatures the composer may be forced to write an eighth note and then another eighth note when he wants the note to be held as one quarter note. There is a reason according to rules why he cannot simply write a quarter note, so that you, as musician, must play it as a quarter note even though he as composer must write it as two eighth notes that are tied. There is actual musical sense behind this, which was demonstrated to me.

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#937941 - 08/02/08 07:39 PM Re: tie question
DragonPianoPlayer Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/12/06
Posts: 2368
Loc: Denver, CO
There is also a slight difference in how a tie and a slur appears on the page.

A tie will connect notehead to notehead.

A slur will either be above (or below) all the notes or in some editions it will extend past the beginning and ending notes.

Rich
_________________________

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#937942 - 08/02/08 08:40 PM Re: tie question
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2629
Loc: Maine
OK, I get it I think. So, like in the case of the initial notes in question (Chopin Waltz), if the "tie" is connecting two chords and any of the notes change pitch it is actually a slur...?
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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#937943 - 08/02/08 08:48 PM Re: tie question
sotto voce Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/15/06
Posts: 6163
Loc: Briarcliff Manor, NY, USA
Yep, exactly. As DPP said, a tie would go from notehead to notehead on those bottom notes.

Steven
_________________________

"There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats."
—Albert Schweitzer

Chopin: Allegro de Concert Op. 46
Schumann: Toccata Op. 7
Fauré: Ballade Op. 19

Top
#937944 - 08/03/08 04:50 AM Re: tie question
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Good point for discussion Peyton.

In my reference book (Oxford Companion)
"TIE or BIND
The curved line used over a note and it’s repetition, showing that it is intended that the two shall be performed as an unbroken note of the value of the total of the two."

The opening dual treble chords are in fact grouped by a "phrase" marking ... as is the curved line at mid-clef linking the first two measures.

Your intuitive playing is therefore spot on ... the treble chords provide a percussive rhythm for the glorious 4 measure LH Theme ... the tied
LH bass keynote A should use the pedal to stretch the duration ... so as not to compromise the exact fingering of the eighth-note ripples above.

What intrigues me is the high discipline of the Chopin layout ... always in 4-measure groupings (1-4, 5-8, 9-12, 13-16, etc) ... but then, isn’t the playing of the waltz like the fond return to a favourite book ... sheer nostalgic reverie.

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#937945 - 08/03/08 08:01 AM Re: tie question
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2629
Loc: Maine
Thank you btb. I always enjoy the way you explain things. You have such a musical way of writing. \:\) I'm not sure however what you mean by using the pedal to stretch the duration of the tied A. Surely you do not mean to hold the pedal for the full four measures?

Also, I need to get a good musical reference book for just this kind of stuff. What would you recommend? Perhaps the Oxford Companion you mention?
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


Top
#937946 - 08/03/08 02:08 PM Re: tie question
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4263
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
Hi Peyton,

You question use of the pedal for all 4 opening measures of the Chopin Waltz in A minor ... what I was trying to say was "don’t let LH finger 5 stay glued to the bottom A in an attempt to
stay over-faithful to the 4 measure tied note" ... freeing up the pinkie (through judicious use of the pedal) permits a neat articulation of the upper 3-note ripples ... but pedal use should not "smudge" (blur) the intrinsic separate phrasing of the 4 sets of treble dual chords ... the rhythmic pulse contrasts so elegantly with the flow of the
LH 4 measure Theme.

My Oxford Companion (something of a Bible) has proved my faithful first reference over many years ... my copy is somewhat dated ... but
when I can put a few pennies together I hope to replace it with the very latest copy (originally edited by Percy Scholes).

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#937947 - 08/03/08 04:11 PM Re: tie question
Peyton Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/06
Posts: 2629
Loc: Maine
Great. Many thanks!
_________________________
"One's real life is often the life that one does not lead."- Oscar Wilde
www.youtube.com/Biffer5
www.peytonart.com


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