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Another example is Beethoven's Sonata Op. 26. The sonata is in A-flat major, but for the third movement, he moves to the parallel minor (a-flat minor). Emphasizing the key relationships of parallel major/minor, it would be wrong (from a musical theory standpoint) for him to have used g# minor, even though practically speaking on the piano it works out to the same notes.

For an odd example, consider Liszt's 6th Hungarian Rhapsody. It starts in Db major, then changes to C# major. Why he did this I am not 100% certain. The only thing I can think of is that certain keys have a certain "color" to them, and to some, C# major may have a different "color" than Db major. Even though they work out to the same notes on the piano, perhaps Liszt was thinking orchestrally when he wrote this (he did after all orchestrate this and many other of his rhapsodies) - for an orchestra there would be subtle differences between the two keys.

Personally, I do happen to subscribe to the school that believes in certain keys having a certain color - but that's a whole separate topic that has been already hotly debated to death...

nUtChAi and Morodiene:

I am currently a student at the Royal College of Music in Stockholm, and, as such, am not a fully educated teacher yet. I do however have to teach classes as part of the education (I´m in my second year).

But I don´t, like one of you suggested, find 7 flats or sharps hard to play in any way (like I´ve said previously), I simply wanted to know if it was a proper key or not (which I now understand that it is, although not very common).

To my credit, they haven´t taught us more than 6 flats/sharps in college. Maybe they´re saving the last one for finals? Or maybe it´s considered obsolete. All my books on theory only goes up to 6.

Well anyway, I just added the "missing" keys into one of my theory-books by drawing them myself, so now they´re there. But I´m gonna find out why they weren´t in the first place!

I find it frustrating when theory books don't give the full picture. Many concepts are easier to understand when you see where they ultimately lead. This is why I don't like the idea of learning C major followed weeks later by G major, followed weeks later by D major etc. The ABRSM sylabus does not introduce F# major until grade 5 giving the false impression that it is in some way difficult or advanced. I think it is far better to show the complete cycle because it is logical.

Another example (a big personal gripe) is showing the G clef and F clef as two separate entities. Why do people feel that this somehow makes the stave easier to grasp?

Chris, your frustration is shared by many, and it's the reason I decided to teach the grand staff the way I do, right from the start, as an integrated concept.

Although I normally don't post in this forum (being a retired guitar teacher and not piano...) this post intrigued me. I find it hard to believe that the key of Cb was omitted from a college course! I pulled out two books that I usually recommend to people trying to learn music theory by themselves (The Complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory and Alfred's Essentials of Music Theory) and both of them include this key.

Strange that a college text should omit it (and apparently they also omit C# Major).

Ed

I like to use the keyboard graphic of all the C's on the piano - that creates uniformately all over the piano and shows registers.

I support this with a superimposed music staff over a keyboard design that i found.

Then a manuscript page on which I draw the C's (5) at first. Then show the 8va, and 15va.
They are amazed when given those landmark reference points. I dislike the landmarks of the F and G - they simply help learn that the treble G is the Dominant and the F is the sub-Dominant when the Tonic is C.

Seeing them as separate things is part of the problem.

Also teaching Middle C in the beginning as a choice to play depending on it's position, (Sloser to which clef?)and whether stems go up or down helps define the middle C area. With the additional spaces B and D it clarifies exactly how many notes live in that "vast" area. (3). The others are leger lines borrowed.

I agree about presenting all 12 Majors and the Circle of 5ths as an entity. However, I would start with the 5 Finger Positions (12) and I would teach root chords and arpeggios. Later we would do inversions.

There is a time for everything. Everything can be planned at the proper time so that it's formative and helps build the next concept.

Scales executed over 2 octaves in all keys can be left until you have need in sonatinas for example.

None of the music staff nor the keyboard need to be a problem to learn. Exploration in one octave of Middle C to Treble C is enough to understand a lot and set up essential fingering for C-G-D-A-E and RH B.

Two black keys/3 white notes CDE (D is in the middle of the 2 black keys)

Three black keys/4 white notes FGAB.

Over and over and over.

I like that word, John - integrated!

Betty

7 Flats? 7 Sharps? How pedestrian... Now B Sharp Major, that's a key signature!

Haha...that's spelled: B# CX DX E# FX GX AX B#. Ok, you're a nutcase if you think I'm playing any piece in that key and not thinking C major! :p

How so?

I'm just going to shut my mouth!

Betty

I am currently working on a piece[1] which is in Ab minor, so that'll be seven flats. Given that certain sections modulate past the subdominant (towards the even flatter side of things) and even further afield, it might perhaps been easier if the composer had notated it in G# minor. Those "not-quite-arpeggios" across three octaves notated in B double flat major[2] can be quite a challenge at first sight

Michael B.
[1] Albéniz's La Vega
http://www.free-scores.com/partitions_telecharger.php?partition=3298
[2] e.g. second system of page 9

Betty puts a best foot forward in enterprisingly saying

“I like to use the keyboard graphic of all the C’s on the piano - that creates uniformity all over the piano and shows registers” and adds

“They are amazed when given those landmark reference points.”

Thought I’d try to knock out a diagram of what Betty has in mind ... is this the “Patnude stave”?

web page

Hi, btb! Where have you been?

Your web page model is close.

This explanation relates to my posting above, please read both for full explanations.

I show 8 C's on my graphic using the music staff.

C second upper leger line 15va
C second upper leger line 8va
C second upper leger line
C treble space
Middle C
C bass space
C 2nd lower leger line
C 8va

KEYBOARD
C C C C C C C C
4 3 2 1 2 3 4 5 (registers)

START AT MIDDLE C with both thumbs
expand 5th fingers to the next C. Exchange 5's for 1's -
Continue.....until done.

__ Used as needed + 8va + 15va
__ Used as needed
______________
______________
______________
______________
______________
- - - - - Used as needed
______________
______________
______________
______________
______________
__ Used as needed
__ Used as needed + 8va

This is a crude drawing, sorry.

We also color orange on the lines or spaces that are C's. If you look at the music staff with all of the C's marked on it from the sideview, clefs at top of page, you see the symmetry of the music staff. By finding these C's on the keyboard you see and hear the symmetry of the keyboard. Good show, no?

I have a good graphic handout in my piano studio.

Works for me!

Thanks for your humor, btb! I needed that!

Betty

Betty, there should be a way to post your graphics here if you wish.

Show me Keystring,

I'm not the least savvy about how to do that. You mean any one graphic in specific, or do you mean most of mine on the different subjects?

If I get the book published, the graphics will be professionaly done, and you can forget trying to decipher my graphics as inhibited by the limitations here. If I were to paste a graphic from my msw document, it does not stay aligned here, it all moves to the left side.

Help!

Thanks, Keystring!

Betty

I think there is a system in place at Pianoworld but I don't know how to use it. First you have to have site that hosts your files. That means that your file is sitting on that site, just like these words are sitting on this site, but they're sitting on that site like a file - just like on your home computer. So the first thing you have to do is join a hosting site like that. I have joined www.box.net.com. Follow their instructions.

Next you will upload your image file. It might have to be in pdf format. So you click "upload" and it will make a copy of the file sitting in your computer. It will tell you when it's done.

Your file will sit in a little box with an arrow and a pull-down menu. The menu gives you choices like "share file". When you click on "share file" it gives you an address. Copy that address.

Then you go over here, write your message, and click "image". A window opens up. Paste the address into the window. Check with "preview post" and you should be able to see your picture. Then you are done. After that you can download things to box.net whenever you want. You can share that file with anyone you want too.

ADDENDUM: The box.net box also has an option of editing your picture. If you click that it sends your picture to another site that has a bunch of turning gears while it's loading. There you can make the picture smaller, brighter, darker. The first thing I posted here was GIGANTIC! Nobody could use the thread anymore because everything ballooned out through my picture. So I learned very quickly how to edit my picture and shrink it down to size.