I just taught a lesson to a boy, age 9, who supposedly had lessons before. He knows nothing. He did not know finger numbers, he had no idea of what a line or space note is, and I don't think he even knows the letter names of any of the keys.

He seems to be a nice kid, and because he knows nothing, I think I can teach him. I saw no signs of learning disabilities.

The frustrating part is that he thought he knew "lots of songs". I could not get a straight story about why he left the last teacher, and the mother speaks English as a second language. She could not be a part of the first lesson (where I normally introduce myself) because she had a toddler and a small baby.

I'm set up in a small studio, in a music store. I've been a part of this store since it opened almost 30 years ago, so I have complete freedom to teach as I wish, and it's no problem for me to take such a kid into my room while the family waits outside. But this was a really extreme case.

I'm not asking for advice, and I'm not even complaining. However, I'd love to hear about other strange situations that the rest of you find yourself in. Today's first lesson was a bit bizarre, because I had to try to explain to the boy that he had not been taught anything about reading while trying to introduce him to the concept!

Gary, it certainly is frustrating to have a student believe he's proficient or have had lessons, then find they know next to nothing.

I always try to find something to complement the student on, even though the words, "totally sucks" floats through my mind. It's hardly the student's fault that the previous teacher failed to teach finger numbers, note reading, etc.

I have a young man, (new) whom I am certain can become a very accomplished pianist, but he was allowed to become a "hunt & peck" pianist. My job is to inspire him to master good technique without taking the wind out of his sails. This is really a challenge. I sense he's had some hard times in the past and the shell is a very thin veneer.

Good luck!

Gary and John,

Does this make you speechless?

How do the non productive teachers and their non productive students explain this? Those of us with integrity would not be able to sleep at night knowing we were missing the boat with a student like this.

Deceptive perceptions by the teacher, the parents, and the student. Some people should not at all be teaching music - they are not prepared to teach but do anyway.

I get them too, but usually they are reshapable in a fairly short period of time - about 3 months - unless there are long term serious problems. Then the truth is that it may never be able to be turned around.

And, nobody recognizes the adherent problems until the student gets to us. I'm not sure we can win these ones.

Remember that the first teacher of a student is the most important teacher. The foundation of someones musicianship is based on excellent work in the beginning during the formative basic skills period.

Sad, sad story.

Betty

Betty and John,

This is not even close to really serious problems I've had in the past, because the kid doesn't know anything.

That means that I get to start him from scratch. I don't have to fix anything.

The only problem is that when people have been told they know something, often they wonder who to believe.

I basically say, "Don't shoot the messenger!"

I also never communicate my true feelings. I say, "I'll take whatever you know and build on it."

The worst part is that when our schedules are not full, we know that absolute incompetents are part of our problem. This kid, the one who started today, is one of the lucky ones. He did not keep going with the other teacher for two years, three years, five years.

What really makes me almost want to cry is when I get a student with real talent who is already in 6th or 7th grade and has had absolutely horrible teaching.

For example, a 6th grader came to me, hardly reading, holding the pedal down all the way, murdering rhythm, and I was able to set him on the right course. He went to summer camps for talented young players and was very successful.

But somehow I was never able to fill in all that he missed, and it was most noticeable in his reading speed. Since that is my strongest ability, I wanted to give that to him. Somehow he got everything else, but he never was able to quite make up for the very slow reading skills he had when he came to me.

It was a sad ending. He got into a good school as a performance major, no problem, but once there he was unable to learn music fast enough on his own and work out most of his own problems.

It was ironic, because he had all the things *I* did not have, starting as an undergraduate. I gave him structure, a really good technical foundation. I spent endless time discussing fingerings. Chord structure. Scales, theory, etc.

I hammered on the importance of chunking, intelligent grouping of all sorts of sections for performance. For me he was playing on a very high level, but he couldn't do it for his college teacher, who was my teacher. He washed out.

Everyone seemed to agree that I did a fine job with him but that he himself was missing something, and maybe that's true. But to this day, I wonder. What if I taught him more the way I was taught, just throwing music at him and telling him to learn it on his own.

sigh…

We just never know, do we?

Ouch!

I have a couple of revamp projects in the works, but nothing as horrendous as a "hunt and peck" pianist. Good heavens!

There are aspects of teaching that tug at your own experience of childhood. Perhaps at 9, but certainly at 8 I lived in a totally different reality. I see nothing strange or even curious about the boy's claim. Go with it.

The kid I talked about is almost 10.

He thinks he can play a lot of "songs" because that's what his last teacher apparently told him and taught him.

In fact, when he's home, by himself, for all I know he is playing around and doing some interesting things, making some interesting discoveries.

My remarks were about his reading skills, which so far dot not exist.

Still, I think it's worth noting that too many teachers stamp on their little worlds. I marvel at them.

Many kids do have a warped sense of reality. This can even extend into adolescence. I had one 8th grader tell me last spring that he wouldn't be able to make the recital a week beforehand, which really puzzled me, since his parents are very good at telling me if there's any conflicts. He said his sister was getting married or something. He was scheduled to sing in a group that I had 2 on a part, and he was supposed to accompany a student on the piano! I think he told his parents that I was disappointed when he got in the car, because when they got home they called me immediately to tell me that there was no conflict, he had the wrong weekend!

Gary, in your OP you write that he doesn't know finger numbers, lines, spaces, nor note names. It is very possible to play without knowing any of those things. You can play by ear, letting the sound guide you, or by imitating a teacher's physical motions by rote. Is it possible that this boy can indeed play a number of pieces in this manner? Did you ask him to play something?

You emphasize reading music. To do so, knowing note names, lines, spaces, and the numbering of fingers is important. You can't play E with 3 if you don't know which finger is 3, or what that E is, and how it corresponds to the keyboard.

By any chance, did you test him on those three things but perhaps not check what he could do by ear? Your conclusion is that he "knows nothing" (in that area, crucial for reading) which is strangely at odds with his having had a teacher who stated he can play lots of songs. This might demystify it.

Could it be that he is coming in with a different set of skills, to which you will add something very different and unfamiliar to him, so that you might end with a very rounded piano student with two aspects to playing?

(posted as student; teacher but not of music)

Keystring,

Anything is possible. I will eventually find out, because I made an immediate connection with the boy. In short, he was a really nice kid, coming in with Marlin clothes (Miami baseball team), and I did not express any negativity. I kept my thoughts to myself and shared a few here.

I did ask him to play anything, and when I say anything, that's what I mean. What he played for me sounded like very simple patterns. They were learned by rote. When he played hands together, both hands played the same thing, simple melodies but with both hands, in octaves. I saw the C position.

He did pick up the essentials of note reading immediately, and unless my intuition is off, he is going to do just fine. He will not be hurt because he did not stay with the other teacher for long.

If anyone is interested, I'll try to give an update in the coming weeks.

A good thing he switched as soon as he did. I think we all would be interested in learning what happens next.

Gary,

Of course we're interested!

Betty

:D John, that is so funny coming from you! That made my day!

So cause Gary asked for examples, I have to say that most of the students who come to me from the public school's afterschool piano program are the worst I have encountered. The students remember the pizza parties and know basically nothing else! This has been an eye opener!

These are supposed to be qualified teachers, but from what I can see, it's not working!

And as John said, just compliment them on something, cause they are going to discover soon enough that what they were doing before wasn't working!

Just got a call from parents of 6 student who were with the school program. I took only 4! It's going to be a rough year!

There are times when I've honestly felt that I'm the only person here who is competent. (Of course, that is not true!)

As I mentioned before, why do people come to us from other teachers? Because something has gone wrong, usually. Occasionally a good teacher retires or moves, or good students come to us from other areas of the country. At such times we become aware that there ARE other good teachers!

Gary, maybe I should start another thread on this topic of the "public school piano programs", but I brought it up because I know teachers who have taught these programs and refuse to ever do it again. Call it what you may, but maybe it's because all ages are allowed in one class. And I can understand just how difficult it would be to teach 10 different aged children in one class. And add different levels of piano knowledge.

Maybe they are limited to one good teacher, but I don't care how "good" the piano teacher is, even the best piano teacher could not survive in these circumstances.

Hope this clarifies what I'm seeing and my concerns with it!

Another thought is that the kid had informal lessons from an extended family member, or a family friend that was self-taught and play-by-ear only. When I was a kid I played violin, and poked a bit at guitar & banjo. I remember my grandfather and friends of my dad's that would show me some of the mechanics of playing, but they couldn't read a lick of music. But they had me playing songs (not by ear, but by demonstration & mimic). Kind of like the lessons that shawncheekeasy does on youtube.

I'm aware of the difficulties of teaching such classes, and you are right. They are certainly a "no-win" situation. However, if you get a student who has been in such a class, usually you can tell from the books and a brief "history" of what the student has done before.

I suspect perhaps a friend of the family. I was not able to get any facts. The mother speaks English as a second language, so I was dependent on the boy to get the facts, and that makes it tough.

This is so true! But sadly, I've had several transfer students who took lessons first from a lady in my area who has marginal piano skills, and does not have any structure or expectations for her students. Now these students are struggling because they lack basic theory training and sightreading ability, and they think I'm "mean" :rolleyes:

Why do these parents think that just because their child is a begginer, they don't need a skilled pianist as a teacher? It boggles my mind!

I don't think I'm going to accept any more students from that teacher.

How very unfortunate for such students.

At least your schools have such programs. Be glad that such programs exist and can feed your studio with students. We don't have that kind of luxury here in our school districts.

One of the high schools in my area has two periods of "piano." They are playing Schaum books, and they have recitals every semester. It's fun to watch these teens plucking out notes on the grand piano on the stage. There's a part of me that's cringing in musical dismay, but there's another part of me that's cheering for the evidence of success in the public school system. The teacher, principal, and school board must be doing something right. I just hope these kids will continue their lessons into adulthood.

Okay here is a strange situations I found myself in. This was a good situation though.

I received a 5 year old who only spoke French (French Canadian). She could not understand English, because her parents only spoke French to her. So they just asked me to do my best. Good thing music is a univeral language. She did great! How, I have no idea exactly how. They moved to Montreal after 3 years and I lost a great student!

I learned to say "Do you understand" in French! Dit la Enfrancais! Think that's right!

Actually that means "Say it in French!" but it amounts to the same thing. You have the beginnings of becoming a linguist, Diane.

Opps, now I remember (that was a while back). It was "Comprenae vue" (Do you understand). The french spelling is wrong I know, but it's how I pronounced it that counts!

Hmm... I've had students come to me and when I show them a page of music they explain, "oh, I know this--we learned it in school! I played the recorder." That last line is what does it for me. Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for the recorder as an instrument and have a wooden one in my closet, but whenever I ask, "what does ___ mean?".. Well, some know. Most don't. It's just like starting anew.

I do fear that I'm producing a couple bad students though. No pianos at home = no real practice, and it seems like I just can't get through to some of them. Every week I have to remind them of "middle C," and that's just a start. The other recent topic that mentioned ADHD and learning disabilities got me thinking, though... often enough I'm shocked at how "descending" becomes "ascending" and vise-versa.

A couple thoughts:
For me, if I'm starting someone, this is an advantage. Most likely a student who has some experience with recorder will be familiar with: treble clef, whole note, half note, quarter note, some rests—and may know the names of some notes in the treble clef.

If a student knows none of these things, it only means I do what I normally do, explain it all myself.
Do you mean you have a couple students who have nothing to practice on at home? Or anywhere else?

Yes. Naturally, this is not my choice, and I keep telling them that if they're serious, they must purchase a piano. (With the way the program is set up, some students take classes for a month or two and I never see or hear of them again--I don't even know why they quit.) I am becoming increasingly fed up with the situation and it shows.

Some students come and go. That's just the way it is!

But playing without an instrument (which means turning us into personal piano trainers) is lethal. I've had to do it a couple weeks, but if it goes on longer than that, I end the lessons.

It's not good for them, and it's not good for me. It's not good for anyone!

This sounds all too familiar. I don't have any students at the moment, but I get calls from one of my previous teachers to vent her frustrations to me and receive feedback. She's now in her late eighties and still teaching perhaps a handful of students at the moment.

Anyway her latest group that came for interviews were, well let's put it this way "just stellar". They had studied with a local teacher that has since given up teaching. This other teacher must've done everything but teach the kids. In fact it was known that she'd go off into her office to do paperwork while the student was playing and then holler out "Good job, keep it up".

Out of the half dozen students that came, she ended up with two. Neither of these two students can read or play well. One of them had studied for six years with this other teacher, and can barely play out of the first or second year easy books. Not the John Thompson, the other really easy editions. Since this student is also studying voice with her, she is able to work with the student on both fronts and the student's reading skills are better. My teacher said to me now only I had her from the beginning! She has the willingness to learn, but was taught so poorly in the beginning, we have to go through the catch-up period and now time is of the essence. The student is now 14 and that gives her only 4 years to come up to speed before she graduates from high school and goes on to college.

The other student had studied for, thank goodness, only two years. She said this boy has some work to do, but will hopefully be able to get him up to a level of decent playing.

The sad part of this is how much money the parents spent on the previous teacher, and how much time was lost learning the important beginning skills incorrectly.

John

Update from last week.

I taught the student I mentioned in the first post for the second time today.

I found out where the basic problems were coming from. The family knows the former teacher, but the teacher may not have charged any money, so it is totally unfair at this point to criticize.

The last guy, teacher or not, was showing this boy only letters. No reading was taking place.

Since reading is central to how I teach, whatever was being taught is a dead end for me. However, to answer a couple questions other people asked, I can't say that what he was being taught was incorrect or useless. However, I do think that people who are not taught to read from the beginning may have to depend only their ears for the rest of their lives.

And although there have been some marvelous musicians who don't read music (many, in fact), most seem to feel that they were "cheated" a bit by not being taught how to read music.